The Coronavirus thread - Page 7

Hey Loco, I don't exactly see eye to eye with you on the topic of climate change but you clearly spend a lot of time on it and you clearly care a lot for where we stand right now and how we can get into a phase where we can recoup or rebound before it is all too late. I currently really have like no energy nor focus on climate change and I think on the upside, this pandemic has great effects on nature, so maybe we get a few weeks/months off with this issue and can all focus on the pandemic. However I appreciate your text and thoughts I just don't want to argue with you about it or go deeper because it feels too "off-topic" on what I want to archive right now. (not in general, like you pointed out, just because my own family could get infected next days because they still go to work and all that stuff is a lot more personal right now to me). I think we do see pretty much eye to eye with the pandemic tho and I feel very sorry if your brother might see complications. I do think if you take huge precautions you might be able to find ways of travelling where your risk of infection isn't that high or where you can guarantee that in case you or your girlfriend gets very sick, you get the necessary treatment that you would need to survive. As it stands otherwise it seems like a terrible risk to take right now and I would recommend you to wait. The longer we have to understand what we are dealing with, the better the chances you get the right treatment and /some form of new cure/something that lowers mortality. Thank you for doing the isolation thing and your family as well thus far, for all we know everyone who does it saves a lot of people and that is the most pressing issue right now.

As mentioned prior, if you found good counter arguments to what I discussed here or on discord, feel free to share & debate me on it or if you can aid with data/good videos/good articles I am always happy to learn more about it.
https://discord.gg/DdstkPe

There arn't any simple tech solutions to climate change yet and it's been 50 years since people started talking about this seriously. There are the green tech ones. What did the western societies do about solar/wind, and agriculture? They got overtaken by a country that is still half peasants, how embarassing. They put $250 billion in agricultural subsidies to a system that harms the environment. There have been tech developments in the fossil fuel sector that allowed companies to extract fossil fuels more than they previously could. Why do people think there will be a tech solution to climate change and no one talks about the tech solutions to extracting more fossil fuels, when that's where most of the research money went?

Also what is AI even being used for? Spying on people, to advertise. That's where all tech companies are putting the vast majority of their money into, they simply want to put all their money into capturing to supply routes to behavioral futures.

Ya, interestingly the virus could have given us a few more months to deal with the climate crisis. But idk, saudi arabia decided to go full idiot mode in a price war and start exporting several more millions of barrels of oil per day.

well, viruses and climate change go together. It's well known that climate change will increase the spread of disease in the world, and who knows the number of pathogens that are trapped in artic ice shelfs. Anthrax is one, for example.

https://www.theguardian.com/environme...ay-off-track-says-un-head-coronavirus

"Unpredictable climate and extreme weather was a factor in 26 of the 33 nations that were hit by food crises in 2019, and was the main driver in 12 of the countries. “After a decade of steady decline, hunger is on the rise again – over 820 million suffered from hunger in 2018, the latest global data available,” the report says."

There is a lot worse to come.

I can't imagine india being a nice place to live in the near future, once the himilaya's melt it will basically be turned into a desert with massive water scarcity, salt water killing crops and serious flooding esp in east india. The prime minister and BJP if they are still around will focus anger on muslims (he is an admirer of adolf hitler), and the risk of a nuclear war with pakistan will be worse than it is now.

This virus is obviously a big problem but it's miniscule compared to climate change.

Along with the oil price war between Russia and the Saudis, here's a few other off-topic things that have happened but been overshadowed by the coronavirus:

- Plague of locusts about to tear through Africa, which is related to climate change:

"It’s a scene that’s playing out across East Africa as swarms of desert locusts spread through the region, destroying crops and pastures at a voracious pace. The United Nations has warned of an unprecedented threat to food security in a part of the world where millions already face hunger. And the situation will probably get worse before it gets better.

Experts say the outbreak—the worst in recent memory—is caused by an increased number of cyclones. If the weather trends continue, there may be more to come.

“There is a link between climate change and the unprecedented locust crisis plaguing Ethiopia and East Africa,” UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres said. “Warmer seas mean more cyclones generating the perfect breeding ground for locusts. Today the swarms are as big as major cities and it is getting worse by the day.” https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2020-africa-locusts/


- Dengue fever cases are rising
- US is doing massive airstrikes in Iraq
- US Congress is trying to pass a bill that will end end-to-end encryption on communication platforms
- Parliament passed a reform allowing Putin to remain president until 2036


Some pretty dark shit. Won't be derailing this thread further but keep in mind this is a perfect timing for a lot of bad shit to happen as people are distracted (or hyperfocused, depending on the situation), so don't just put all your focus on the coronavirus if you can afford not to.

I do think if you take huge precautions you might be able to find ways of travelling where your risk of infection isn't that high or where you can guarantee that in case you or your girlfriend gets very sick, you get the necessary treatment that you would need to survive. As it stands otherwise it seems like a terrible risk to take right now and I would recommend you to wait. The longer we have to understand what we are dealing with, the better the chances you get the right treatment and /some form of new cure/something that lowers mortality. Thank you for doing the isolation thing and your family as well thus far, for all we know everyone who does it saves a lot of people and that is the most pressing issue right now.

We're both in our early 30s and quite healthy currently so not too worried about it. My girlfriend has to keep working and commuting in Japan though which sucks. Right now life over there is going on fairly normally. There is talk that the government is suppressing the numbers/it's hard to get tested, but people aren't panicking. They are pretty much used to catastrophes. Main thing I'd be worried about is when I come back, but I'll just rent a place and self-isolate for a couple weeks to be safe.

I have a flight to Japan April 15, my plans are also in limbo.

In other news, I got COVID tested today because I've had a viral illness and we've had positive patients at work. I don't think I have it but better safe than sorry.

On March 17 2020 00:23 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On March 16 2020 22:05 FiSheYe wrote:   On March 16 2020 20:59 Spitfiree wrote: Yeah, I believe your opinion on that is quite untrue. It's hard to point anything 'outlandish' since your previous comment is ' its better to panic than take it lightly' so you're trying to find the middle ground I suppose, that's fair. The thing is, this event is already unprecedented in our modern history post-antibiotics. People give examples of the spanish flu yet they forget that it still managed to kill millions, while mass transport was only a sci-fi belief for decades to come. We're not prepared, I'm actually glad that politicians started panicking, but its already too late now. We're most likely going to be stuck at least for a few months just to slow it down and then if we're lucky there won't be a second wave in the autumn/winter. There's not going to be a vaccine any time soon. Everything points out to this virus going to go through its entire growth cycle So to make the points: -almost every public business will be closed for months -businesses that have them as clients will also be hurt directly out of that -we'll be stuck in our homes This is pretty much a dystopian situation right now, im not sure what else you'd consider as 'society collapsing' but anything worse than that is basically our extinction What we're lucky about is that this isnt some superbug immune to antibiotics Have to agree and after 1 week of exhausting writing and talking and phoning people and trying to finding plausible arguments that counter the data I found.... I am basically accepting that I try my best, will only convince a small population and brace for impact. In 2 weeks the same people will come back to me for advise and I will forgive and help, I hope they only show my text to their friends and laugh because I am proven wrong. The worst part is the intellectual fatigue with people of high IQ, I have a hard time forgiving them. I talked today with my aunt who is a retired doctor. She had 2 burn outs because she couldn't leave people in need and was always taking everything to heart. Today I talked to her about the numbers, the crisis ahead and all that stuff. She agreed with everything but told me to stay cool and not panic and that we cannot do much anyways. Yet doesn't go to the press, doesn't talk with virus experts, doesn't call people up. I talked to her about exponential growth and how she is not equipped to understand it and that it will be much worse and that she can save lives right now by not only isolating but also convincing others. She is contemplating to come back out of retirement to help with the worst cases of the epidemic when she already has health conditions and is in the highest mortality rate. The manual labor to save people in the hospital is so much less productive in a few weeks than telling 1-2 people that have influence to understand the data and act accordingly. It is sickening how stupid everyone is and the cost to benefit ratio is so outlandish, worst case you will be made fun of. I really feel like I am going crazy with this, it is so saddening to see. The worst part everyone with a decent brain who looked at the data agrees with me, they are just in different modes of acceptance instead of calling people up. I don't understand On the brighter side of things, you will have learned quite a bit about the world you live in and the people with whom you share this earth, and the meaninglessness of things like IQ, which isn't representative of general intelligence or "wisdom". The reason we are in this situation, fundamentally, is because people have a blind faith in authorities, and have been robbed of their autonomy, and kept in the dark about the way power operates in this world. Whether it's because they believe in some God or some political party, or their parents or community leaders; people have never been equipped to think for themselves. The societies of mass consumption that we exist in can only survive because of this fact. The positives of something like this might be to reawaken the need for mutual aid and a general disillusionment with representationalism, but I wouldn't hold my breath. This is just the beginning of a series of crises that have been in the cards for a long time and which a profit-oriented world could not be prepared to handle properly, and it pales in comparison with the impacts that climate change will have. The way you feel right now is the way millions of ecologically-conscious people have been feeling for years: that we are walking towards a cliff as a species and most people don't seem to notice or be able to care, and it's depressing and anxiety-inducing to have to interact with such people and also depressing and anxiety-inducing to resign yourself to the fact that nothing is likely going to change before it's too late.

mostly agree with Loco

On March 16 2020 00:31 FiSheYe wrote: More countries will follow with quarantine and complete shutdown. I suspect we aren't being told the full truth. I hope Italy and South Korea's HUGE discrepancy is based on purely the factors we discussed

The outbreak in Korea started in a sect compromised by mostly younger people, that is why the mortality rate is so low, the infection rate being so low is because they have handled this better than any other country, included China.

The Joe Rogan podcast is quite good to share to someone corrupted by misinformation btw, then again people like that mostly wouldn't spend 1,5 hrs watching a video if its not 'fast and furious' alike.

Cliff notes:

- Most likely spread by breathing, but not fully confirmed yet, if it gets confirmed the whole thing about masks becomes pretty useless
-- The second option is by droplets via air, in which case masks are pretty good - thus wouldn't hurt to use for now, but rather don't buy any to not overload healthcare providers more
- Hand sanitizers are actually pretty good
- Closing schools is probably a bad idea cause children seem to be unaffected and this will take a portion of the healthcare staff away from where they're most needed
- Skeptical prognosis is we will be in this situation for at least a few months (3-7)
- There is no real data suggesting that the summer will act as a neutralizer, in other cases like SARS they only dealt with it in June because they managed to track down every individual and isolate them, it had absolutely nothing to do with the weather
- Having a vaccine in the next year is mostly happy wishing
- Dude's advice on precautions we can take is literally the most obvious ones - keep fit, eat healthy, sleep properly.

- On a side note, he debunks the use of probiotics, even though he used to be a major supporter the data just doesn't support their usefulness

^If it's airborne then n95 masks are still useful

Regarding the climate change comparisons - I posted this the other day, I'm sure many have had the same thought

Scientists: Climate change threatens the future of younger generations

Government: Well we can't damage the economy to do anything about that

Scientists: There's a novel virus out that threatens the elderly but leaves younger generations relatively unharmed

Government: SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING!!

Just in case anyone needed to be reminded the that boomers still run the country

The same mask advice, the stupidity and hubris of these people.

"Masks dont work... so save them for the healthcare providers" how does that make any fucking sense.. also every single country who has slowed down the spread wear masks compulsively, the ones who are spiraling out of control don't, only a stupid government would follow Italy's steps instead of Korea's, only a stupid person would follow Italians steps instead of Koreans

meh, it's consistent with a 'masks work in certain scenarios' - message. That is; they diminish the spread if you yourself have the virus, they are essential for medical personnel who are working closely with infected people; but for ordinary, non-infected, non-trained people who might get the virus on their hands through touching surfaces and who then keep touching their face a couple times per minute, it might just mean you have the virus next to your mouth and nose for longer.

So sure, if everybody has one then it helps stop the spread, but if you're a healthy dude commuting to work and people around you aren't wearing them, then your own chances of catching it don't decrease. And
if they are in limited supply it becomes significantly more important that medical personnel have them.

I believe it was mostly a messaging to discourage individuals from hoarding them selfishly, which seems important.

Abusing the corona by power
STATE TRIES TO CRUSH A WORLD CLASS LABORATORY FOR DOING CHEAP TESTS
Basically there's a molecular biologist who by chance got sent 2 people that kept hopelessly trying to get tested but our Universal Healthcare turned them down

Like all universal healthcare there's a lot of bureaucracy and red tape and just like during communism it's driven by who's friends with whom

So she tested them, they both came positive
She charged them $50, because that's what the procedure costs in countless other tests and is the same for corona.

State tests cost $150 - $250.

What happened next you can't make up
- Government bans smaller laboratories from testing
- the healthcare minister goes on live TV, saying that an unauthorised tester got infected by mishandling the virus
The Prime minister emerges behind him and Starts interrogating him live on TV to give him the name - he's a former communism secret police collaborator and 2nd richest person in the country so he knows how.
- Says the name of the biologist, and that she's in hospitalised with corona
- Which SHE WASN'T , at all, and baffled watched this from her laboratory on national TV, while relatives and friends started sending her messages asking if she's okay
- Then the guy leading the epidemiology for the government tries to discredit her method which turns out is 3X cheaper with same result
- Laboratories from all over the world including the US contacted her to share the faster method with them
- she hears from 3 separate sources from the ministry that they will try to crush her laboratory
- only weeks after this happened, under pressure they might allow laboratories like hers to test people
and might have no choice to allow hers as well

He also had an emergency government meeting
Everything about corona
And tried to sneak in an add-on bylaw about tracking of ownership of companies at the end
While being under investigation of subsidy corruption in one of his sister companies

Not sure what happened to it, he might well have passed it
So yes no doubt there will be backroom shenanigans happening that will fly under the radar now

On March 17 2020 09:14 Baalim wrote: The same mask advice, the stupidity and hubris of these people. "Masks dont work... so save them for the healthcare providers" how does that make any fucking sense.. also every single country who has slowed down the spread wear masks compulsively, the ones who are spiraling out of control don't, only a stupid government would follow Italy's steps instead of Korea's, only a stupid person would follow Italians steps instead of Koreans

Or you know, you can panic, tell everyone to go buy masks, meaning supply wont meet demand, people that don't need them will get them and there will be none left for new cases which will escalate the spreading of the disease.

FFP2+ are needed for people in the front line
But it's a going point you should be getting crappy ones or making your own

On March 17 2020 06:56 Loco wrote: Right now life over there is going on fairly normally. There is talk that the government is suppressing the numbers/it's hard to get tested, but people aren't panicking. They are pretty much used to catastrophes.

What's happening here is pretty much the opposite of social distancing and flattening the curve. Some of my older friends were forced to work remote so they go to each others' house every day because they don't want to work alone lol. Japanese people generally don't understand english or communicate with the west at all. Even if they use something like twitter they have their own ecosystem and don't see tweets that go viral in the US etc. It's pretty much a completely separate experiment.

>it's spread by coughing
>an alarming number of asymptomatic young people can get it and unknowingly pass it on

hmmmm

I guess this means the end of the eurozone. I don't see it surviving the virus

On March 17 2020 18:48 Stroggoz wrote: I guess this means the end of the eurozone. I don't see it surviving the virus

Huh? No chance countries will be leaving immediately after or during this
because doing so is a huge burden on the economy and Brexit example is a deterrent almost

I do hope this will make countries take a long hard look at Brussels and all the useless red tape and inability to act they've clearly showed with this

https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/news/china-favilavir-testing-approval/

researchers all around the world so aggro now