The Coronavirus thread - Page 11

On March 27 2020 07:22 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On March 27 2020 06:29 Jelle wrote: lol ffs Harvard professor Brandon Adams predicting 5-10% to mad max on the doug polk youtubes 10% seems high, but its a possibility, picture this, China lifts quarantine the a massive second infection wave starts, hydroxicloroquine and redemivir and the other treatments show no significant improvement and the vaccine hits a deadend and is years away from development, the worlld would change as we know it but I'd say that scenario is under 5%. its easy to think we can rebuild very fast and we I think we would, however historically the fall of the Roman Empire and others which were basically civilization, it took the world many centuries to get to that level again, about the same time the empire lasted, so perhaps it would take us several decades in this rare scenario to get back to where we are.

making any conclusions based on what happened to the roman empire is nonsense, our soceity and technology is incomperable to that ancient one, in worst case scenario the regeneration would be magnitudes faster

also remember we had the spanish flu in 1918 which was more severe then this will ever will be (hopefully), it was tough but humanity got over it fairly quickly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu

ww1 was a complete disaster, spanish flu came on top of that, then great depression happened which was a complete disaster, then ww2 which was absurdly terrible.

Still in 1950 the world was a much better place than it was in 1910, and it can't all be credited to the roaring 20s. (I mean, you can def argue that there's a relationship between these events, but it wasn't a given trajectory either. )
I think it's quite likely that the west will experience more suffering than it has experienced in a generation as a direct consequence of corona and the following economic downswing, but this isn't our existential crisis.

On March 28 2020 15:49 RiKD wrote: Not all of Bill Gates money in the Bill and Melinda Gates fund goes to "charity." A lot of it goes to investments including large investments in McDonalds as well as Monsanto, Cargill, and other harrowing investments. They are all interrelated. He is basically wagering on agribusiness and subsidies and rigging the bet in his favor. (Water) and food is the most important need on this planet and he is fucking it all up. We learn in the "Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Morals" by Kant that the motive is what matters. I actually think Bill Gates motive is generally in the right place he is just misguided by who he is and where he came from. Musk and Ma I believe are doing it for branding more than anything else. Same with any play that Besos makes.

Bill Gates is misguided, despise the fact he predicted this pandemic and tried to wark everybody, Musk is building respirators and Ma is sending millions of masks for branding reasons.... such evil guys


On the other hand the state, which actually takes money from people to solve these problems has done nothing but being incompetent and negligent and taking measures too late, not closing borders encouraging people to go out until it exploed in ther faces.


Yeah fuck philatrophist who willingly give their money in efficient ways, lets take their money and give them to the mighty state... you are a moron.

On March 28 2020 16:09 RiKD wrote: Agribusiness is not our way out of the climate crisis it only exacerbates the problem. Heirloom seeds and seed savers are our saviors. Intelligent organic farming. Not shipping watermelons from across the world. Not overproducing avocados. All of our problems are a product of capitalism. Bill Gates is a product of capitalism. We certainly don't need growth in McDonalds. Bill Gates does. How do you guys think he "gives" all this money away and ends up richer????????????????????????????

yeah its capitalism fault that another pandemic is formed in the biggest communist country in the world that is where 80% of the rest of the pandemics have begun.

On March 29 2020 00:56 Liquid`Drone wrote: ww1 was a complete disaster, spanish flu came on top of that, then great depression happened which was a complete disaster, then ww2 which was absurdly terrible. Still in 1950 the world was a much better place than it was in 1910, and it can't all be credited to the roaring 20s. (I mean, you can def argue that there's a relationship between these events, but it wasn't a given trajectory either. ) I think it's quite likely that the west will experience more suffering than it has experienced in a generation as a direct consequence of corona and the following economic downswing, but this isn't our existential crisis.

THIS!


LOL who would cite the spanish flu as a story of quick recovery? it led to the biggest depression in history and eventually another world war.

On March 29 2020 01:46 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On March 28 2020 15:49 RiKD wrote: Not all of Bill Gates money in the Bill and Melinda Gates fund goes to "charity." A lot of it goes to investments including large investments in McDonalds as well as Monsanto, Cargill, and other harrowing investments. They are all interrelated. He is basically wagering on agribusiness and subsidies and rigging the bet in his favor. (Water) and food is the most important need on this planet and he is fucking it all up. We learn in the "Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Morals" by Kant that the motive is what matters. I actually think Bill Gates motive is generally in the right place he is just misguided by who he is and where he came from. Musk and Ma I believe are doing it for branding more than anything else. Same with any play that Besos makes. Bill Gates is misguided, despise the fact he predicted this pandemic and tried to wark everybody, Musk is building respirators and Ma is sending millions of masks for branding reasons.... such evil guys On the other hand the state, which actually takes money from people to solve these problems has done nothing but being incompetent and negligent and taking measures too late, not closing borders encouraging people to go out until it exploed in ther faces. Yeah fuck philatrophist who willingly give their money in efficient ways, lets take their money and give them to the mighty state... you are a moron.

Gates wasn't misguided in that regard. Very sharp. Just as he is very sharp when it came to Microsoft business. This does not mean he is infallible and knows everything in every facet of this Earth. Musk and Ma are not evil. Regardless it is very dangerous to idolize billionaires or anyone.

I am not a fan of the state. USA govt. has fucked this up including giving bailouts to Buffet and Gates and Musk who have been reaping the benefits of the state their entire careers.

I am taking less issue with Musk and Ma than I am with Gates. Gates invests in McDonalds ffs. Do you believe that growth in McDonalds, Monsanto, Cargill, USA airlines, et al is good for this Earth?

I'd cite it as a quick recovery. I don't see how it led to the great depression, which happened 10 years after the spanish flu. It obv had long term effects on people that suffered from it though.

Yeah we can all agree that states were completely incompetent on this, or at least the non east asian ones. The rich have shaped the state towards their own interests. The problem is Gates share's class values with others that belog to his class.

On March 29 2020 01:48 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On March 28 2020 16:09 RiKD wrote: Agribusiness is not our way out of the climate crisis it only exacerbates the problem. Heirloom seeds and seed savers are our saviors. Intelligent organic farming. Not shipping watermelons from across the world. Not overproducing avocados. All of our problems are a product of capitalism. Bill Gates is a product of capitalism. We certainly don't need growth in McDonalds. Bill Gates does. How do you guys think he "gives" all this money away and ends up richer???????????????????????????? yeah its capitalism fault that another pandemic is formed in the biggest communist country in the world that is where 80% of the rest of the pandemics have begun.

China is not communist. It is some warped, shanzhai abomination of authoritarian communism.

You are right in the fact that I mispoke. Coronavirus is not capitalism's fault.

You can't disentangle the plutocracy and late capitalism though. Meaning you can't just take examples of Bill Gates doing something good and using that as an argument for the free market/right libertarianism. Just as you can't take Mao's shanzhai marxism as an example and "win" the game in one move like that.

There are things that these guys are doing that are beyond our comprehension. Really. How do these guys "give" so much money away and end up with more of it? And as I said I am just some manipulated, exploited, beaten down cow just trying to find some grass to eat and roam around for a little bit. I'm sick of being manipulated, exploited, and beaten down and the same goes for my brothers and sisters and the brothers and sisters that don't even realize they are a cow but are suffering all the same.

On March 29 2020 02:06 RiKD wrote: Gates wasn't misguided in that regard. Very sharp. Just as he is very sharp when it came to Microsoft business. This does not mean he is infallible and knows everything in every facet of this Earth. Musk and Ma are not evil. Regardless it is very dangerous to idolize billionaires or anyone. I am not a fan of the state. USA govt. has fucked this up including giving bailouts to Buffet and Gates and Musk who have been reaping the benefits of the state their entire careers. I am taking less issue with Musk and Ma than I am with Gates. Gates invests in McDonalds ffs. Do you believe that growth in McDonalds, Monsanto, Cargill, USA airlines, et al is good for this Earth?

I dont Idiolize billionares, you as most leftists villanize them, Bill Gates bent every rule in the book to build his monopoly and should have gone to jail, Musk plays the market and subsidies in dirty ways, he called this pandemic an exageration in a pathetic attempt to protect Tesla's stock price, and Ma I dont know but he is Chine so he is probably worse, I see them with ther flaws and qualities, but leftists complain billionares dont do anything I cited mas production of respirators, millions of masks, leading the world charge against pandemics and you are like "oh they do it for branding".

As I said he works with GMO companies to develop drough resistant crops, its a pathetic way to view things by guilt of association, I dont know about his investments with McDonalds, but if having money in McDonalds is enough for you to qualify somebody as evil then there isn much to discuss.

On March 29 2020 02:21 Stroggoz wrote: Yeah we can all agree that states were completely incompetent on this, or at least the non east asian ones. The rich have shaped the state towards their own interests. The problem is Gates share's class values with others that belog to his class.

Yes the states were incompetent, we agree, and yes its shaped by self interest, and that is precisely the reason why you don't create the most powerful of tools for the cynic to take over.

On March 29 2020 02:36 RiKD wrote: China is not communist. It is some warped, shanzhai abomination of authoritarian communism. You are right in the fact that I mispoke. Coronavirus is not capitalism's fault. You can't disentangle the plutocracy and late capitalism though. Meaning you can't just take examples of Bill Gates doing something good and using that as an argument for the free market/right libertarianism. Just as you can't take Mao's shanzhai marxism as an example and "win" the game in one move like that. There are things that these guys are doing that are beyond our comprehension. Really. How do these guys "give" so much money away and end up with more of it? And as I said I am just some manipulated, exploited, beaten down cow just trying to find some grass to eat and roam around for a little bit. I'm sick of being manipulated, exploited, and beaten down and the same goes for my brothers and sisters and the brothers and sisters that don't even realize they are a cow but are suffering all the same.

If China isn't communist then the US isn't capitalist.

Gates et al aren't great examples of libertarianism, they are the product of corporativism, they are great examples of how unneccesary these suppoused leaders are, private entities reacted far better than the state and centralized bureaocrats, the fucking WHO said the virus wasn't contagious human to human, then it said countries shouldnt restrict travel from China, and to this date insist that the public does not use masks, the CDC blocked early testing in the US for a long time, now they blocked home testing forcing people into testing centers increasing risk of infection, M3 manufactured 30 million n95 masks but the FDA currently blocked them due to regulation and are sitting in warehouses as people die

This bureacratic ineptitude will cost the lives of hundreds of thousands if not millions just because of this, I'll take my chances with auto-manufacters building ventilators tech developing apps that allow local quarentines, food services building delivery infrastructure etc.

I'm one of the few that does not think america is capitalist nor china is commmunist .

capitalism itself is an inconsistent definition. It supposes that there is private ownership over production and free markets. As society has existed, capitalism has not really ever taken place in America because those that privately own the means of production have concentrated their capital and political power to undermine free markets, and enrich themselves through state protections. Corporations themselves are not something that would exist in a capitalist society, since they are legal entities the state has granted bodies of people, with limited liability, and other rights, like unlimited use of money in elections. That's a strong example of interventionism.

So, imo America is not really a capitalist society-except in some small way. China is closer to what marx called capitalism than America, given it's sweat shop system, enclosure of the commons and migration of peasantry to the cities. That is something marx would easily recognize if he was around today but it would take some adjustment for him to understand America's system.

On a side note about elon's subsidies:

There should honestly be massive state intervention for a green revolution, solar panels were developed in bell labs, a subsidiary of ATandT, but they never took off for a long time because the state never put enough research into them and the only buyers of solar panels were NASA. Chinese banks have been focused on development while american banks have been focused on profit, that's why China is leading the way in solar, wind, and electric vehciles even though it was disadvantaged in that race. So im not against subsidies but they should be on strict conditions, it's a shit system that has the public pay for subsidies while private gain is accumulated, which is what happens in elon musks case.

Like i keep saying, society is complex. You don't wanna follow some philosophers rules as a guide to ethics (like kant), and you don't want to follow the free market rules. Economists have exposed many problems with markets (externalities, information asymetry, and lack of choice-you dont get public goods), are three examples. I'm personally in favour of market-socialism, a socialist society that does have markets, but they are highly restricted.

Bill gates is not a corporatist lol. That word is highly misleading, corporatism as i understand it is a socialist system based on mutual coop's, like guild socialism and syndacalism. It can also mean strong labour unions.

yeah wrong word to use corporatist

On March 29 2020 01:50 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On March 29 2020 00:56 Liquid`Drone wrote: ww1 was a complete disaster, spanish flu came on top of that, then great depression happened which was a complete disaster, then ww2 which was absurdly terrible. Still in 1950 the world was a much better place than it was in 1910, and it can't all be credited to the roaring 20s. (I mean, you can def argue that there's a relationship between these events, but it wasn't a given trajectory either. ) I think it's quite likely that the west will experience more suffering than it has experienced in a generation as a direct consequence of corona and the following economic downswing, but this isn't our existential crisis. THIS! LOL who would cite the spanish flu as a story of quick recovery? it led to the biggest depression in history and eventually another world war.

yes the spanish flu led to the great depression and WW2 directly. thats what all historians agree upon.

LOL!

how about you check your facts before talking nonsense?

just to be clear I wasn't trying to argue that the spanish flu led to great depression or ww2.
I meant that despite the world experiencing a whole lot of extremely shitty events during a 30 year timespan, 4 shitty events where each are several magnitudes worse than anything we have experienced in western countries for the past 30 years, somehow, society actually, overall, progressed during that period of time. That's not to undercut the amount of suffering it led to - it's merely meant to indicate that as bad as this coronabusiness is, and I believe it to be very bad, is not something that threatens to destroy western civilization in the way the fall of the roman empire did.

Then I did say that there's a relationship between these events, but the established correlation is more ww1 -> treaty of versailles - > germany feels unfairly treated - > great depression happens and hurts germany a lot (not uniquely) - > demagogue rises and exploits the combination of treaty of versailles and great depression as part of his platform to attain power, blame everybody else, 'fix the economy', and eventually start ww2. (this is an obvious simplification of the timeline. )

The relationship with spanish flu is more that ww1 made it worse, and it made countries downplay its significance / not report on it / worsened the spread. (The reason why it's called spanish flu is that spain was neutral in ww1, and thus they were one of very few countries to actually report on the virus, even though it most likely originated in the US and did not affect spain worse than other countries. ) Not to say that it can't have had some influence on the great depression in some way, but there's no established causality there.

Dam, hope your not going steven pinker on me.

There is a lot of revisionist history on the great depression, beleive it or not the main historian on the great depression and its causes is...Ben Bernanke. He did is Phd on the causes of it, and according to some he completely misunderstood it, not understanding it was a result of too much private debt leading to debt deflation, (which was what irving fischer the economist at the time said.) Instead he blamed it on monetary policy. some other economists have blamed it on tarriffs from the trade war at the time, but that doesnt add up.

meanwhile in brazil: https://www.theguardian.com/world/202...coronavirus-brazil-governors-appalled Congrats on electing a fascist who doesn't beleive in science brazil!

On March 29 2020 12:57 Liquid`Drone wrote: just to be clear I wasn't trying to argue that the spanish flu led to great depression or ww2. I meant that despite the world experiencing a whole lot of extremely shitty events during a 30 year timespan, 4 shitty events where each are several magnitudes worse than anything we have experienced in western countries for the past 30 years, somehow, society actually, overall, progressed during that period of time. That's not to undercut the amount of suffering it led to - it's merely meant to indicate that as bad as this coronabusiness is, and I believe it to be very bad, is not something that threatens to destroy western civilization in the way the fall of the roman empire did. Then I did say that there's a relationship between these events, but the established correlation is more ww1 -> treaty of versailles - > germany feels unfairly treated - > great depression happens and hurts germany a lot (not uniquely) - > demagogue rises and exploits the combination of treaty of versailles and great depression as part of his platform to attain power, blame everybody else, 'fix the economy', and eventually start ww2. (this is an obvious simplification of the timeline. ) The relationship with spanish flu is more that ww1 made it worse, and it made countries downplay its significance / not report on it / worsened the spread. (The reason why it's called spanish flu is that spain was neutral in ww1, and thus they were one of very few countries to actually report on the virus, even though it most likely originated in the US and did not affect spain worse than other countries. ) Not to say that it can't have had some influence on the great depression in some way, but there's no established causality there.

I know, my post is meant for Baal

On March 29 2020 06:53 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On March 29 2020 02:06 RiKD wrote: Gates wasn't misguided in that regard. Very sharp. Just as he is very sharp when it came to Microsoft business. This does not mean he is infallible and knows everything in every facet of this Earth. Musk and Ma are not evil. Regardless it is very dangerous to idolize billionaires or anyone. I am not a fan of the state. USA govt. has fucked this up including giving bailouts to Buffet and Gates and Musk who have been reaping the benefits of the state their entire careers. I am taking less issue with Musk and Ma than I am with Gates. Gates invests in McDonalds ffs. Do you believe that growth in McDonalds, Monsanto, Cargill, USA airlines, et al is good for this Earth? I dont Idiolize billionares, you as most leftists villanize them, Bill Gates bent every rule in the book to build his monopoly and should have gone to jail, Musk plays the market and subsidies in dirty ways, he called this pandemic an exageration in a pathetic attempt to protect Tesla's stock price, and Ma I dont know but he is Chine so he is probably worse, I see them with ther flaws and qualities, but leftists complain billionares dont do anything I cited mas production of respirators, millions of masks, leading the world charge against pandemics and you are like "oh they do it for branding". As I said he works with GMO companies to develop drough resistant crops, its a pathetic way to view things by guilt of association, I dont know about his investments with McDonalds, but if having money in McDonalds is enough for you to qualify somebody as evil then there isn much to discuss.

I villainize them, true. For good reasons. Perhaps I shouldn't assume they are doing it for branding. It's just a wager based on evidence of their past actions.

My contention is that Gates should focus on the cause behind the droughts ie climate catastrophe in a meaningful way. It's what I mean in the discord where I said "covid-19 is the biggest issue of HIS life." Climate catastrophe is the biggest issue for human as a species and it probably won't effect Bill Gates much. I wonder why he doesn't talk about climate change and proper organic farming. Maybe he has. Maybe a complete re-haul of our agricultural practices we can't make enough food and we all end up dead (well the poor end up dead). It's more likely that McDonalds, Monsanto, Cargill lose profit and in turn so does Bill Gates. But that's what I would talk about if I ever had the chance to have a conversation with him.

I also don't think anyone is evil. If someone actually is classified as evil it is a product of their environment (or some sort of brain tumor).

On March 29 2020 07:03 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On March 29 2020 02:36 RiKD wrote: China is not communist. It is some warped, shanzhai abomination of authoritarian communism. You are right in the fact that I mispoke. Coronavirus is not capitalism's fault. You can't disentangle the plutocracy and late capitalism though. Meaning you can't just take examples of Bill Gates doing something good and using that as an argument for the free market/right libertarianism. Just as you can't take Mao's shanzhai marxism as an example and "win" the game in one move like that. There are things that these guys are doing that are beyond our comprehension. Really. How do these guys "give" so much money away and end up with more of it? And as I said I am just some manipulated, exploited, beaten down cow just trying to find some grass to eat and roam around for a little bit. I'm sick of being manipulated, exploited, and beaten down and the same goes for my brothers and sisters and the brothers and sisters that don't even realize they are a cow but are suffering all the same. If China isn't communist then the US isn't capitalist. Gates et al aren't great examples of libertarianism, they are the product of corporativism, they are great examples of how unneccesary these suppoused leaders are, private entities reacted far better than the state and centralized bureaocrats, the fucking WHO said the virus wasn't contagious human to human, then it said countries shouldnt restrict travel from China, and to this date insist that the public does not use masks, the CDC blocked early testing in the US for a long time, now they blocked home testing forcing people into testing centers increasing risk of infection, M3 manufactured 30 million n95 masks but the FDA currently blocked them due to regulation and are sitting in warehouses as people die This bureacratic ineptitude will cost the lives of hundreds of thousands if not millions just because of this, I'll take my chances with auto-manufacters building ventilators tech developing apps that allow local quarentines, food services building delivery infrastructure etc.

I don't believe the US is capitalist either. Terms like "late capitalism," "neoliberal capitalism," "oligarchy," "plutocracy," et al seem to fit better.

I agree with you on the bureaucracies fucking up in the West. They didn't seem to fuck up in the East though. Why is that?

Also, who says there can't be entrepreneurship outside of "capitalism" or right libertarianism?

On March 29 2020 08:06 Stroggoz wrote: On a side note about elon's subsidies: There should honestly be massive state intervention for a green revolution, solar panels were developed in bell labs, a subsidiary of ATandT, but they never took off for a long time because the state never put enough research into them and the only buyers of solar panels were NASA. Chinese banks have been focused on development while american banks have been focused on profit, that's why China is leading the way in solar, wind, and electric vehciles even though it was disadvantaged in that race. So im not against subsidies but they should be on strict conditions, it's a shit system that has the public pay for subsidies while private gain is accumulated, which is what happens in elon musks case.

Exactly. But how are we ever going to get strict subsidies that don't inordinately benefit the rich in today's system(s)? Obviously, Musk should benefit for his work but it shouldn't be to the tune of billions in hoarded capital off of the people's backs.

Like i keep saying, society is complex. You don't wanna follow some philosophers rules as a guide to ethics (like kant), and you don't want to follow the free market rules. Economists have exposed many problems with markets (externalities, information asymetry, and lack of choice-you dont get public goods), are three examples. I'm personally in favour of market-socialism, a socialist society that does have markets, but they are highly restricted.

Kant's Categorical Imperative is simply one test. A thought experiment which Rawls expanded upon. I don't walk around thinking what would Kant do? There is no what would Rawls do bracelet on my arm but I think I am likely a better person for learning about these things and thinking about these things. I also have a major boner for fairness and justice though. It's why I can never be full moral skeptic even if that's what my brain pangs for.

Who restricts this market-socialism you speak of?