majority in the netherlands are smart! - Page 2

On June 09 2013 15:52 Syllogism wrote: this is why I don't debate religion anymore...especially islam....you are always called a racist or whatever....and people refuse to look at the evidence and facts because they want to be politically correct. Ignorance is bliss

i hate poltical correctness with a passion. I think racist jokes can be used as an act of solidarity to bring people together, as it gives other people thick skin and then they can joke with each other without hurting each other. And im not a supporter of any religion, but i don't mind it if religious people do not cause harm to other people. What i see here is a bunch of religious people in the netherlands with irrational thoughts on another religion, that is islam.

The problem is that there is an unwarrented amount of hate towards islam/muslim, and middle easteners in general. They are mostly peaceful human beings just like us, just like Christians even. So why do so many people think that they should not be allowed to practice their religion, but think that Christianity or advertisting/corporate media is ok to practice in their own country? The corporate media instills possessive values in people through advertising, narrows the public opinion and perception of the world, and it makes polticians conform to their idealogies, much the same way priests do it in iran. I don't think any religion is good, but the corporate media is by far the most dangerous in the world, and ignores dangerous things like global warming for short term profits.

On June 09 2013 16:47 TalentedTom wrote: Things would be better off if there was a way to get rid of all religions.

Agree. We should do this by telling the truth, and presenting arguments. Fanaticism is something that gets out of control and highly immoral when it's used to support power. so to get rid of religion we need to both be able to criticize powerful institutions, and present truthful and ethical arguments.

On June 09 2013 15:18 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On June 09 2013 12:55 whamm! wrote: I didnt know islam or muslim was a race this, strogos ignorance is thru the roof lately

well i meant middle easterners in general. I guess middle easteners isn't a race technically? im not sure. Anyway pretty obvious what i meant.

btw you are by far one of the most fanatical persons i know. Much more than most religious people i meet.

You told me you thought global warming was a hoax, and your libertarian(20th century libertarianism, not 19th) beliefs are highly irrational, because in practice and theory they advocate tyranny and wage slavery. last time i tried to explain this to you i couldn't get through to you so maybe this time you should take the time to read Bertrand Russells poltical ideals or anything that chomsky has ever written about this subject. Both people speak the truth and have common sense. Here are some excerpts http://www.notable-quotes.com/c/capitalism_and_the_wage_system.html http://chomsky.info/interviews/20130528.htm. It only takes about 20 minutes to read.
baal should read this as well if he still thinks anarcho-capatalism is a good idea.

On June 09 2013 17:36 MiPwnYa wrote: I think its fairly reasonnable to hate most religions sayin that islam is worse than the other ones dsnt make much sense tho

All religions are stupid but Islam is indeed far worse, what other religion stone people to death for adultery and deny basic human rights to women?


Islam is barbaric and its influence should be stopped in the modern world, it has absolutely nothing to do with racism, as someone said since when is Islam a race?

yes i am really fanatical about freedom
ofc ppl on the bottom end of skill/education/w/e chain will always be poor coz they know nothing and have nothing to offer, whats your point really?


islam is like medieval christianity, you cant tolerate intolerant culture
in before you say nacism was a cool idea

I dont really have a religion that i like except for maybe buddhism or any other that promotes only peace and self awareness. Why is there a clear double standard for speaking against certain religions? Its because you can die doing so in one particular case. Its easy to ignore the problem and look down on bigots like me when you dont have to deal with it everyday. "But i have muslim friends? "Yes the 5 ones you meet in college who live in the suburbs? Give me a break .

Theres a ton of very good ones of course but they seem to do a horrible job of policing their own. The good ones who follow the rules and assimilate to the countrys laws should be the only ones allowed access. Fact: hispanics, asians, indo malays and middle easterners, africans look alike, so do white guys. So what?

my impression of islam-haters is that they hate arab and black muslims more than the asian ones. prolly largely because the extremist spotlight has been occupied by the first two groups. but either way that's the foundation for the notion that islam-haters are racist. not necessarily in the way that 'I believe there are genetical/hereditary differences in the makeup of blacks or arabs that make them inferior to whites', but in the 'I want to treat blacks and arabs differently from whites in such a way that it constitutes difference in opportunity based on "race".' This is also a definition of racism. (the black part only applies to europe. the africans who live in europe largely come from muslim countries. For american islam-haters though (granted, much rarer in breed), the arab-muslim connection is even stronger.

as for blackjack; all scientologists are seemingly scientologists "by choice", that is, they were not born into it. I'd assume that more than 95% of the world's current islamic population were born into islam, and an almost equally high percentage have lived their lives in societies that do not inspire towards religious criticism (honestly I dunno how say, indonesia is in this regard). saying anything to the effect of muslims are crazy or dumb is essentially like saying that europeans 100 years ago are crazy or dumb. this is something you won't see western people do, because these people are our ancestors and we can examine history in such a way to realize that their actions and thoughts were guided by the norms of their respective socities.

to be clear, I don't have a problem with a statement like say, "islamic countries are gross repeat offenders of human rights" or "islamic leaders instigate violence and oppress progress". hell, I'm fine with "islam needs to experience and undergo a transformation akin to that of christianity to function in modern society". My problem is that I always, always, feel like hatred of islam, even if motivated by support of good humanitarian values like gender equality, turns into hatred of muslims. and this doesn't contribute to the abridging of communities and valuable cultural exchange, it creates increased division which causes more extremism. The worse we behave towards muslims, the less secular they get.

And like, I see this whole.. argument that muslims are threatening european values or whatnot. "european culture" as a whole is apparently under attack. But that's just not how it works. No norwegians become opposed to women's suffrage just because we get muslim immigrants arriving from countries that have chosen to instead emphasize women's suffering. but many muslims who migrate here do in fact partially or fully adopt more western values- although only if successfully integrated, and often increasingly so through generations. I'm absolutely not saying that integration has been totally smooth and yes there are significant challenges related to the integration of differently cultured immigrants. but banning subscribers to a certain religious belief from entering a country or practicing their religion is just as gross of an attack on perceived western values like tolerance and individual freedom as mostly anything islamic immigrants can possibly represent. secularization happens naturally when reasons for religion (like hopelessness, death and bad education) disappear. that's where we should focus our attention. explaining to religious believers why we think they are morons or hating them for their beliefs is only gonna make them disregard our message and hate us back.

Amen

On June 09 2013 19:12 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On June 09 2013 17:36 MiPwnYa wrote: I think its fairly reasonnable to hate most religions sayin that islam is worse than the other ones dsnt make much sense tho All religions are stupid but Islam is indeed far worse, what other religion stone people to death for adultery and deny basic human rights to women? Islam is barbaric and its influence should be stopped in the modern world, it has absolutely nothing to do with racism, as someone said since when is Islam a race?

Well, I guess christianism has caused lots of harm in the past too and has been anything but a tolerant religion as well ?
I'm not an expert but both islam, catholicism and protestantism have quite a heavy shitbaggage dont they ?
And when the word racism was used ITT I assume it was used as in prejudice in general, hating muslims as a whole is obv a form of racism lol

^^ I was a catholic growing up, I always felt odd that there may have been something wrong with me because of it. The priest never chose to molest me, maybe my clothes were too loose or I wore my hair the wrong way

i think the word is islamaphobia. i didn't think of the word at the time so i just said racism, since islam and middle easteners correlate so highly i didn't think people would make such a big deal about it.

On June 09 2013 19:02 Stroggoz wrote: http://www.notable-quotes.com/c/capitalism_and_the_wage_system.html

i read the whole thing and its one of stupidest things i ve ever read. i m sick of ppl like you trying to force their stupid ideas upon others in the name of 'justice' (coz i assume you are aware of the fact that you are totally free to form a syndicalist commune in an-cap system so basically all your arguments against ancap are irrelevant). i m really really disgusted

and i m sorry i cant tolerate a religion worshipping murderer, thief, rapist and child molester, having no respest for a human life and persecuting freedom and free will. apparently it makes a bad person

On June 09 2013 20:27 Liquid`Drone wrote: as for blackjack; all scientologists are seemingly scientologists "by choice", that is, they were not born into it. I'd assume that more than 95% of the world's current islamic population were born into islam, and an almost equally high percentage have lived their lives in societies that do not inspire towards religious criticism (honestly I dunno how say, indonesia is in this regard). saying anything to the effect of muslims are crazy or dumb is essentially like saying that europeans 100 years ago are crazy or dumb. this is something you won't see western people do, because these people are our ancestors and we can examine history in such a way to realize that their actions and thoughts were guided by the norms of their respective socities.

Yeah, I think that's kind of the problem. Don't you think we should all be able to agree that the Dark Ages, and the Crusades, and burning people at the stake was pretty retarded? Don't you think if you were alive during those times that it would be a perfectly reasonable thing to say that those people are crazy and dumb? In my experience it's very easy to find a scholar that is willing to criticize Middle Age Christians compared to finding one that is willing to criticize modern day Islam. Basically, Islam is bad and it stifles science and women's rights, but it's only politically correct to say this 500 years from now after we are all dead and gone.

Heck, forget the Dark Ages. I bet there are millions of people in our countries that are more critical of modern day Christianity than modern day Islam. Amazingly it's the same people that will trash talk the redneck bible belt Jesus freaks and then defend Islam with the next breath. Now how does that make any sense? If you have a problem with Christians holding back gay rights or women rights then you should be absolutely furious with Muslims. Oh, but you don't get to pat yourself on the back for being "tolerant" for putting up with bible belt Christians. They are white so it's not "intolerance" to call them on their bullshit.

On June 09 2013 22:10 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On June 09 2013 19:02 Stroggoz wrote: http://www.notable-quotes.com/c/capitalism_and_the_wage_system.html i read the whole thing and its one of stupidest things i ve ever read. i m sick of ppl like you trying to force their stupid ideas upon others in the name of 'justice' (coz i assume you are aware of the fact that you are totally free to form a syndicalist commune in an-cap system so basically all your arguments against ancap are irrelevant). i m really really disgusted

yeah, people are free to form syndicalism in democracies as well as anarcho capatalism. And they do. In anarcho capatalism people are also free to accumulate private ownership of factories, land, business and run it like an authoritarian sctructure. Using that authoritarian structure to control people within their own business and destroy others that 'freely' try to compete. And that's whats happened many times before in a democracy like america, ( i've already linked examples to you before) anarcho capitalism would mean complete freedom for totalitarian corporations to do what they want. people argue there is competition and liberty. Ok, it's not competition when you starve someone and then offer them a job that allows them to subsist, and they have no liberty if they have no money to do anything outside of work. That's sort of how student debt works actually. It's a method of controlling students for a big part of their life after they graduate. that shit used to be free in poorer times.

where you go wrong is your definition of what freedom is, it is not what works in practice. Freedom requires significant co-opration by people to be intolerable to the intolerant.

The 2nd link is good too you should read that one as well

Problem with the Islam compared to most other religions is that they live in the middle ages when it comes to their idea(l)s.

I don't view the Islam as an evil, as long as those following it aren't trying to convince others of it.

The biggest problem is that a lot of these foreigners are very unwilling to integrate into our Western society. A lot of first and or second generation immigrants hardly speak the language. They hold to values of their own backwards country where women are a non-factor when it comes to any kind of decision making and this extends to their children's upbringing. Obviously this brings friction when they move about in society.

Then there's Morrocan youngsters. I'm not saying every young person from Morocco or Morrocan descent is bad, but there's a sizable population in this age group that are a big problem. They have zero respect for Dutch values/morals and are constantly a threatening factor on the streets. When you see a group of these kids hanging around, you better not look at them or they'll get agressive (mostly in wording of course). A linesman was kicked to death by kids of ~17 years old at an amateur football match. Of course the news reports didn't indicate this, but it was on everyone's mind: probably Morrocans. Everytime something like this happens, the first thought that comes to the mind of a lot of Dutch people is 'probably Morrocans'. And these prejudices are in most cases true.

The PVV (party for freedom) is the anti-Islamic party in the Netherlands. They have a populist spouting bullshit all the time and the public gobbles it up (in my opinion the less-educated people really like to follow someone that has strong blurted out opinions like that) and the guy is kind of an idiot, but the one right thing they do is address the problem. I think it's healthy that there is a party that makes it a main point in their agenda to guard Dutch culture and values.
For example in one of my local supermarkets, around 75% of the working force is Islamic. 16 year old Morrocan girls with headscarves at the check-out counters who are simply not very respectful to their costumers (me) by looking annoyed, talking (sometimes screaming to a few aisles over) to their co-workers while bleeping my items over the scanner. Their lack of respect for costumers is staggering compared to Dutch check-out personel. They simply seem to care less about being nice. I don't care too much but I can imagine that little things like this create friction between Dutch people and Islamic people. You'd basically rather get helped by a Dutch person than one of these unrespectful Morrocan girls. That's just one example in my local neighbourhood.
It's also more apparent in the cities obviously. Most of the 'countryside' doesn't have any immigrants to speak of. My parents visited me last week. My dad and me worked on some stuff in my apartment and my mom went shopping at my local shopping center in Amsterdam. When she came back, the first thing she mentioned was that it seemed like she was no longer in Holland. It was a bit in jest but it illustrates some points of course. And I live in a suburban area outside of the center.

The Netherlands is one of the most diverse countries in the world when it comes to nationalities/cultures. When you walk the streets in Amsterdam, in a few blocks you can probably recognize 5-10 different languages (in before, LOL tourism). All these different cultures are a big melting pot but it works. The only culture that a lot of Dutch people are against, is the Islam and it's because, in my opinion, it's a religion based on values/morals of the middle ages.

Islam is at its peak right now due to all the oil money in the middle east being used to promote islam in underdeveloped regions of the world. The more powerfull a religion gets the more horrible it gets in regards to human rights.

Peak christianity has passed a relatively long time ago so most people either dont know of all the atrocities done in the name of the christian god, or they choose to ignore them, some even go as far as saying its not a religion but rather a life philosophy.

The more developed a nation gets, the more the standard of living and education rises and the popularity of religions decline, fact.

Why would the netherlands ban Sharia law? They have their own laws and sharia laws arent applicable in any way anyways? Am I missing something here??

What a dumb and intolerant article anyways... Islam =/= sharia laws etc, there are bad apples in every religion and that doesnt have anything to do with letting islamic immigrants into the country.

PS I deeply dislike all kinds of religion

Problem with muslims is that they consider their religions sharia law as the global law and
Anyone with different views should be considered infidels - wherever country they may be.

Warning: Giant Essay

First,

I believe that survey or whatever was conducted by Geert Wilders or his party right? I'd question if they weren't selective about who they chose to ask. Personally, I think the results are suspect but I'm not a fan of any 'information' gathered via self-reporting.

That being said, I think I fall pretty far on the anti-immigration side of things. I think immigration in general is out of control all over the world but perhaps we can't realistically stop globalization.

My question to people who think immigration is a good thing, and denying people from other places the opportunity to immigrate to Europe is explicitly wrong - is why? Asian countries consistently deny any long term immigration. Some UN member countries even cause a bit of a stir by refusing to take war refugees. Japanese Source and Another.

I don't understand the current politically correct position that accepting immigrants is a morally positive thing to do, and not desiring to do so somehow makes one xenophobic or racist. Why does slowing or restricting immigration to Europe have to be immediately tied to xenophobia.

When I ask people who are pro-immigration why they think it is a good thing I often get a reply that 'it helps the economy by filling low-wage jobs', this is one of the most 'racist' things I consistently hear people say on a regular basis. As if the PC crowd somehow presumes all immigrants will be uneducated unskilled laborers.

On June 10 2013 05:17 Twisted wrote: Then there's Morrocan youngsters. I'm not saying every young person from Morocco or Morrocan descent is bad, but there's a sizable population in this age group that are a big problem. They have zero respect for Dutch values/morals and are constantly a threatening factor on the streets.

I've probably spent upwards of a total of 3 months in the Netherlands over various holidays/trips (admittedly, 100% of which was in Amsterdam and surrounding areas). I've had two different encounters with young Moroccans acting like complete fuckwits in non-tourist areas (one of which included pushing a ~15 year old girl off her moving bicycle for no obvious reason). Seeing them dress and attempt to act like the LA gangbangers they see on TV is pretty sad. It's more troubling when you consider the general culture and nature of native Dutch people and how it is very disruptive to the generally tranquil environment. I'm dropping a heavy anecdote with a small sample size but there is something a bit unnerving even as a tourist when you are walking around far from city center off the beaten path and there aren't even storefronts with signs in Dutch and 16 year old fake-thug jackasses blasting terrible rap music at absurd volumes and staring down anyone who is a stranger to them.

Yes, of course, there are Dutch assholes too and everyone can be an asshole. What is happening in Sweden and Netherlands is NOT multiculturalism. It is immigrant groups moving to select neighborhoods, surrounding themselves with only people from their own backgrounds, and putting up stores/signs everywhere in their own language while maintaining a hostile attitude to any perceived 'outsiders'. If you criticize them for not doing more to envelop themselves to the general dutch culture you are a 'racist' for asking them to adapt to an environment they chose to enter.

The Netherlands isn't North/South America where countries were founded on the ideal of accepting people from all walks of life to form a mosaic or melting pot. It's not 'racist' for the Dutch to expect people who choose to move and live there full time to interact with and in some ways adapt to the native population.

I understand the essay/rant ^ I've submitted is pretty controversial, but I still can't understand what it is exactly that makes Europe in particular a place that MUST accept all immigrants or be labeled racist, where other prosperous countries get a pass on having far stricter immigration laws and rules.

tl;dr: having pockets of mono-cultural immigrants isn't multiculturalism and does nothing positive for native dutch people or the immigrant populations and Europe clearly needs to have a real discussion about immigration without resorting to calling each other racists, terrorists, or anything in-between as I think it's clear that the last few decades of immigration has not been much of a net positive socially from any angle.

On June 09 2013 23:18 Stroggoz wrote: where you go wrong is your definition of what freedom is, it is not what works in practice.

while communism is proven to work in practice, really?

you sound like a broken record, repeating the same and ignoring anything else, barely knowing what libertarian, liberal and corporations mean

On June 09 2013 23:18 Stroggoz wrote: In anarcho capatalism people are also free to accumulate private ownership of factories, land, business and run it like an authoritarian sctructure.

did you just question private ownership???

On June 09 2013 23:18 Stroggoz wrote: And that's whats happened many times before in a democracy like america, ( i've already linked examples to you before) anarcho capitalism would mean complete freedom for totalitarian corporations to do what they want. people argue there is competition and liberty. Ok, it's not competition when you starve someone and then offer them a job that allows them to subsist, and they have no liberty if they have no money to do anything outside of work.

-unsuccessful businesses fail; anyway your examples from current fascist US (which is in fact a republic, not democracy) are irrelevant to free market discussion (as i stated before and you rather decided to ignore it)
-read the definition of corporation, mnj wrote longass post explaining in detail how corporations gets power thru government regulations and are cease to exist w/o government which you obv decided to ignore
-non-qualified ppl are always under pressure coz they have no value on the market, its their fault, there always will be majority of unsuccessful ppl
-an-cap example: if ppl were unhappy, they are free to join your commune and be happy. and others seeing how awesome it is would join right? well that wont happen coz anyone barely qualified would leave and your stupid system would collapse. so actually you are totalirian, forcing your bullshit upon others and denying their rights to promote your stupid ideas of right and wrong. you and other communists know your stupid system wont work unless you force smart and hardworking ppl to work for majority of lazy stupid faggots. while your motives might be good, you are in fact terrible human being :|

On June 09 2013 19:15 dogmeat wrote: yes i am really fanatical about freedom

But you dont want muslims to be able to practice their religion? Isnt that a bit weird? I mean, in a free liberal state anyone should be able to believe in and practice any religion long as this doesnt infringe on other peoples rights. Or do you just completely deny that there is a huge population of secular muslims in europe who all full and well respect a seperation o chuch and state? Certain actions and behaviours are illegal because we have decided they have no place in a modern society. I you try to stone a woman for adultery, we put you in jail. Not because you are a muslim but because you tried to stone a woman to death. Same thing would apply to say, trying to burn a supposed witch at the stake in the name of jesus. We as a society make the laws and decide what you can and cant do, as long as you stay within the confines of these laws you are free to your own beliefs and rituals.

Making laws targeted at a specific religion is just a really shady endeavor, and to me it smells alot more a populism trying to point fingers at one group in society rather than an effort to make the netherlands a more tolerant place.

Im not a fan of religion and I dont think it has any place at all in making policy in a society, but i also believe that humans should respect eachother. You think banning and bombing is the best way to get rid of religious extremism? Cause it hasnt been going stellar so far.