majority in the netherlands are smart!

http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfi...netherlands-favors-ban-on-sharia-law/

"A majority of 55 percent favors stopping immigration from Islamic countries.

63 percent say: no new mosques.

64 percent say that the arrival of immigrants from Islamic countries has not been beneficial to the Netherlands.

Nearly three-quarters – 73 percent – of all Dutch see a relationship between Islam and the recent terror acts in Boston, London and Paris."

If this is your idea of smart then I feel sorry for you and, quite frankly, ashamed,

i m ashamed of you, gumster

racists gona racist.

I didnt know islam or muslim was a race

I started a thread about this years ago and posted one of Wilders videos about the islamification of Europe and the west. Glad to see some other people taking notice to this and that his party has gained lots of support over the years.

Ever notice how it's not okay to say you don't want followers of Islam in your country but it's totally okay to say you don't want followers of the Westboro Baptist Church in your country? Or any other smallish cult for that matter?

There's obviously some number, let's called it X, that as soon as you get X followers for your particular brand of man-made bullshit it suddenly becomes "bigotry" to criticize it. We can still call scientologists bat shit crazy and nobody will call us intolerant bigots. Clearly they haven't reached that number X yet. I think there should be a study to determine what this number X is.

On June 09 2013 12:55 whamm! wrote: I didnt know islam or muslim was a race

this, strogos ignorance is thru the roof lately

this is why I don't debate religion anymore...especially islam....you are always called a racist or whatever....and people refuse to look at the evidence and facts because they want to be politically correct. Ignorance is bliss

On June 09 2013 11:43 Stroggoz wrote: racists gona racist.

ye holland is so intolerant

that poll clearly indicates that there are strong anti-islamic tendencies in holland. it's a notion that has been spreading throughout europe for the last couple of years. we've seen it in sweden as well, as our 3rd biggest party is now a party with racist policies who basically want close to no immigration.

63% say they want no new mosques? it's a peaceful place where people practice religion (and its important for many other reasons, such as social, cultural ones etc), and saying that you dont want any new mosques means you dont think muslims should have a right to practice their religion.

basically they are getting all this hate because of states like iran that use religion to control people and stay in power, and because of people's own governments who can't integrate immigrants properly which leads to a load of socioeconomic problems.

there's an islamification of europe going on? bitch please.

meat: just because you post a picture of a dutch dude giving an apple to a black guy doesn't mean holland is tolerant

Things would be better off if there was a way to get rid of all religions.

Religion sucks

Things would be so much better if people werent selfish and egocentric as fuck - 2 qualities that can sum up all of humanity's problems ( people wouldnt care about religion and 20% of the muslims wouldnt be crazy ass fuckers ( you see what i did there ? ) )

nice new imo, close to everyone/shit tons of people think the same way tho but everyone keep it shut because its ''racist''
nice to see people starting to open their mouth about those people xd

just realised op is from albania o_O

I think its fairly reasonnable to hate most religions
sayin that islam is worse than the other ones dsnt make much sense tho

For the record, nobody asked me lol.

And that Maurice de Hond guy is pretty much an entitled douchebag.

On June 09 2013 16:47 TalentedTom wrote: Things would be better off if there was a way to get rid of all religions.

On June 09 2013 15:52 Syllogism wrote: this is why I don't debate religion anymore...especially islam....you are always called a racist or whatever....and people refuse to look at the evidence and facts because they want to be politically correct. Ignorance is bliss

i hate poltical correctness with a passion. I think racist jokes can be used as an act of solidarity to bring people together, as it gives other people thick skin and then they can joke with each other without hurting each other. And im not a supporter of any religion, but i don't mind it if religious people do not cause harm to other people. What i see here is a bunch of religious people in the netherlands with irrational thoughts on another religion, that is islam.

The problem is that there is an unwarrented amount of hate towards islam/muslim, and middle easteners in general. They are mostly peaceful human beings just like us, just like Christians even. So why do so many people think that they should not be allowed to practice their religion, but think that Christianity or advertisting/corporate media is ok to practice in their own country? The corporate media instills possessive values in people through advertising, narrows the public opinion and perception of the world, and it makes polticians conform to their idealogies, much the same way priests do it in iran. I don't think any religion is good, but the corporate media is by far the most dangerous in the world, and ignores dangerous things like global warming for short term profits.

On June 09 2013 16:47 TalentedTom wrote: Things would be better off if there was a way to get rid of all religions.

Agree. We should do this by telling the truth, and presenting arguments. Fanaticism is something that gets out of control and highly immoral when it's used to support power. so to get rid of religion we need to both be able to criticize powerful institutions, and present truthful and ethical arguments.

On June 09 2013 15:18 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On June 09 2013 12:55 whamm! wrote: I didnt know islam or muslim was a race this, strogos ignorance is thru the roof lately

well i meant middle easterners in general. I guess middle easteners isn't a race technically? im not sure. Anyway pretty obvious what i meant.

btw you are by far one of the most fanatical persons i know. Much more than most religious people i meet.

You told me you thought global warming was a hoax, and your libertarian(20th century libertarianism, not 19th) beliefs are highly irrational, because in practice and theory they advocate tyranny and wage slavery. last time i tried to explain this to you i couldn't get through to you so maybe this time you should take the time to read Bertrand Russells poltical ideals or anything that chomsky has ever written about this subject. Both people speak the truth and have common sense. Here are some excerpts http://www.notable-quotes.com/c/capitalism_and_the_wage_system.html http://chomsky.info/interviews/20130528.htm. It only takes about 20 minutes to read.
baal should read this as well if he still thinks anarcho-capatalism is a good idea.

On June 09 2013 17:36 MiPwnYa wrote: I think its fairly reasonnable to hate most religions sayin that islam is worse than the other ones dsnt make much sense tho

All religions are stupid but Islam is indeed far worse, what other religion stone people to death for adultery and deny basic human rights to women?


Islam is barbaric and its influence should be stopped in the modern world, it has absolutely nothing to do with racism, as someone said since when is Islam a race?

yes i am really fanatical about freedom
ofc ppl on the bottom end of skill/education/w/e chain will always be poor coz they know nothing and have nothing to offer, whats your point really?


islam is like medieval christianity, you cant tolerate intolerant culture
in before you say nacism was a cool idea

I dont really have a religion that i like except for maybe buddhism or any other that promotes only peace and self awareness. Why is there a clear double standard for speaking against certain religions? Its because you can die doing so in one particular case. Its easy to ignore the problem and look down on bigots like me when you dont have to deal with it everyday. "But i have muslim friends? "Yes the 5 ones you meet in college who live in the suburbs? Give me a break .

Theres a ton of very good ones of course but they seem to do a horrible job of policing their own. The good ones who follow the rules and assimilate to the countrys laws should be the only ones allowed access. Fact: hispanics, asians, indo malays and middle easterners, africans look alike, so do white guys. So what?

my impression of islam-haters is that they hate arab and black muslims more than the asian ones. prolly largely because the extremist spotlight has been occupied by the first two groups. but either way that's the foundation for the notion that islam-haters are racist. not necessarily in the way that 'I believe there are genetical/hereditary differences in the makeup of blacks or arabs that make them inferior to whites', but in the 'I want to treat blacks and arabs differently from whites in such a way that it constitutes difference in opportunity based on "race".' This is also a definition of racism. (the black part only applies to europe. the africans who live in europe largely come from muslim countries. For american islam-haters though (granted, much rarer in breed), the arab-muslim connection is even stronger.

as for blackjack; all scientologists are seemingly scientologists "by choice", that is, they were not born into it. I'd assume that more than 95% of the world's current islamic population were born into islam, and an almost equally high percentage have lived their lives in societies that do not inspire towards religious criticism (honestly I dunno how say, indonesia is in this regard). saying anything to the effect of muslims are crazy or dumb is essentially like saying that europeans 100 years ago are crazy or dumb. this is something you won't see western people do, because these people are our ancestors and we can examine history in such a way to realize that their actions and thoughts were guided by the norms of their respective socities.

to be clear, I don't have a problem with a statement like say, "islamic countries are gross repeat offenders of human rights" or "islamic leaders instigate violence and oppress progress". hell, I'm fine with "islam needs to experience and undergo a transformation akin to that of christianity to function in modern society". My problem is that I always, always, feel like hatred of islam, even if motivated by support of good humanitarian values like gender equality, turns into hatred of muslims. and this doesn't contribute to the abridging of communities and valuable cultural exchange, it creates increased division which causes more extremism. The worse we behave towards muslims, the less secular they get.

And like, I see this whole.. argument that muslims are threatening european values or whatnot. "european culture" as a whole is apparently under attack. But that's just not how it works. No norwegians become opposed to women's suffrage just because we get muslim immigrants arriving from countries that have chosen to instead emphasize women's suffering. but many muslims who migrate here do in fact partially or fully adopt more western values- although only if successfully integrated, and often increasingly so through generations. I'm absolutely not saying that integration has been totally smooth and yes there are significant challenges related to the integration of differently cultured immigrants. but banning subscribers to a certain religious belief from entering a country or practicing their religion is just as gross of an attack on perceived western values like tolerance and individual freedom as mostly anything islamic immigrants can possibly represent. secularization happens naturally when reasons for religion (like hopelessness, death and bad education) disappear. that's where we should focus our attention. explaining to religious believers why we think they are morons or hating them for their beliefs is only gonna make them disregard our message and hate us back.

Amen

On June 09 2013 19:12 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On June 09 2013 17:36 MiPwnYa wrote: I think its fairly reasonnable to hate most religions sayin that islam is worse than the other ones dsnt make much sense tho All religions are stupid but Islam is indeed far worse, what other religion stone people to death for adultery and deny basic human rights to women? Islam is barbaric and its influence should be stopped in the modern world, it has absolutely nothing to do with racism, as someone said since when is Islam a race?

Well, I guess christianism has caused lots of harm in the past too and has been anything but a tolerant religion as well ?
I'm not an expert but both islam, catholicism and protestantism have quite a heavy shitbaggage dont they ?
And when the word racism was used ITT I assume it was used as in prejudice in general, hating muslims as a whole is obv a form of racism lol

^^ I was a catholic growing up, I always felt odd that there may have been something wrong with me because of it. The priest never chose to molest me, maybe my clothes were too loose or I wore my hair the wrong way

i think the word is islamaphobia. i didn't think of the word at the time so i just said racism, since islam and middle easteners correlate so highly i didn't think people would make such a big deal about it.

On June 09 2013 19:02 Stroggoz wrote: http://www.notable-quotes.com/c/capitalism_and_the_wage_system.html

i read the whole thing and its one of stupidest things i ve ever read. i m sick of ppl like you trying to force their stupid ideas upon others in the name of 'justice' (coz i assume you are aware of the fact that you are totally free to form a syndicalist commune in an-cap system so basically all your arguments against ancap are irrelevant). i m really really disgusted

and i m sorry i cant tolerate a religion worshipping murderer, thief, rapist and child molester, having no respest for a human life and persecuting freedom and free will. apparently it makes a bad person

On June 09 2013 20:27 Liquid`Drone wrote: as for blackjack; all scientologists are seemingly scientologists "by choice", that is, they were not born into it. I'd assume that more than 95% of the world's current islamic population were born into islam, and an almost equally high percentage have lived their lives in societies that do not inspire towards religious criticism (honestly I dunno how say, indonesia is in this regard). saying anything to the effect of muslims are crazy or dumb is essentially like saying that europeans 100 years ago are crazy or dumb. this is something you won't see western people do, because these people are our ancestors and we can examine history in such a way to realize that their actions and thoughts were guided by the norms of their respective socities.

Yeah, I think that's kind of the problem. Don't you think we should all be able to agree that the Dark Ages, and the Crusades, and burning people at the stake was pretty retarded? Don't you think if you were alive during those times that it would be a perfectly reasonable thing to say that those people are crazy and dumb? In my experience it's very easy to find a scholar that is willing to criticize Middle Age Christians compared to finding one that is willing to criticize modern day Islam. Basically, Islam is bad and it stifles science and women's rights, but it's only politically correct to say this 500 years from now after we are all dead and gone.

Heck, forget the Dark Ages. I bet there are millions of people in our countries that are more critical of modern day Christianity than modern day Islam. Amazingly it's the same people that will trash talk the redneck bible belt Jesus freaks and then defend Islam with the next breath. Now how does that make any sense? If you have a problem with Christians holding back gay rights or women rights then you should be absolutely furious with Muslims. Oh, but you don't get to pat yourself on the back for being "tolerant" for putting up with bible belt Christians. They are white so it's not "intolerance" to call them on their bullshit.

On June 09 2013 22:10 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On June 09 2013 19:02 Stroggoz wrote: http://www.notable-quotes.com/c/capitalism_and_the_wage_system.html i read the whole thing and its one of stupidest things i ve ever read. i m sick of ppl like you trying to force their stupid ideas upon others in the name of 'justice' (coz i assume you are aware of the fact that you are totally free to form a syndicalist commune in an-cap system so basically all your arguments against ancap are irrelevant). i m really really disgusted

yeah, people are free to form syndicalism in democracies as well as anarcho capatalism. And they do. In anarcho capatalism people are also free to accumulate private ownership of factories, land, business and run it like an authoritarian sctructure. Using that authoritarian structure to control people within their own business and destroy others that 'freely' try to compete. And that's whats happened many times before in a democracy like america, ( i've already linked examples to you before) anarcho capitalism would mean complete freedom for totalitarian corporations to do what they want. people argue there is competition and liberty. Ok, it's not competition when you starve someone and then offer them a job that allows them to subsist, and they have no liberty if they have no money to do anything outside of work. That's sort of how student debt works actually. It's a method of controlling students for a big part of their life after they graduate. that shit used to be free in poorer times.

where you go wrong is your definition of what freedom is, it is not what works in practice. Freedom requires significant co-opration by people to be intolerable to the intolerant.

The 2nd link is good too you should read that one as well

Problem with the Islam compared to most other religions is that they live in the middle ages when it comes to their idea(l)s.

I don't view the Islam as an evil, as long as those following it aren't trying to convince others of it.

The biggest problem is that a lot of these foreigners are very unwilling to integrate into our Western society. A lot of first and or second generation immigrants hardly speak the language. They hold to values of their own backwards country where women are a non-factor when it comes to any kind of decision making and this extends to their children's upbringing. Obviously this brings friction when they move about in society.

Then there's Morrocan youngsters. I'm not saying every young person from Morocco or Morrocan descent is bad, but there's a sizable population in this age group that are a big problem. They have zero respect for Dutch values/morals and are constantly a threatening factor on the streets. When you see a group of these kids hanging around, you better not look at them or they'll get agressive (mostly in wording of course). A linesman was kicked to death by kids of ~17 years old at an amateur football match. Of course the news reports didn't indicate this, but it was on everyone's mind: probably Morrocans. Everytime something like this happens, the first thought that comes to the mind of a lot of Dutch people is 'probably Morrocans'. And these prejudices are in most cases true.

The PVV (party for freedom) is the anti-Islamic party in the Netherlands. They have a populist spouting bullshit all the time and the public gobbles it up (in my opinion the less-educated people really like to follow someone that has strong blurted out opinions like that) and the guy is kind of an idiot, but the one right thing they do is address the problem. I think it's healthy that there is a party that makes it a main point in their agenda to guard Dutch culture and values.
For example in one of my local supermarkets, around 75% of the working force is Islamic. 16 year old Morrocan girls with headscarves at the check-out counters who are simply not very respectful to their costumers (me) by looking annoyed, talking (sometimes screaming to a few aisles over) to their co-workers while bleeping my items over the scanner. Their lack of respect for costumers is staggering compared to Dutch check-out personel. They simply seem to care less about being nice. I don't care too much but I can imagine that little things like this create friction between Dutch people and Islamic people. You'd basically rather get helped by a Dutch person than one of these unrespectful Morrocan girls. That's just one example in my local neighbourhood.
It's also more apparent in the cities obviously. Most of the 'countryside' doesn't have any immigrants to speak of. My parents visited me last week. My dad and me worked on some stuff in my apartment and my mom went shopping at my local shopping center in Amsterdam. When she came back, the first thing she mentioned was that it seemed like she was no longer in Holland. It was a bit in jest but it illustrates some points of course. And I live in a suburban area outside of the center.

The Netherlands is one of the most diverse countries in the world when it comes to nationalities/cultures. When you walk the streets in Amsterdam, in a few blocks you can probably recognize 5-10 different languages (in before, LOL tourism). All these different cultures are a big melting pot but it works. The only culture that a lot of Dutch people are against, is the Islam and it's because, in my opinion, it's a religion based on values/morals of the middle ages.

Islam is at its peak right now due to all the oil money in the middle east being used to promote islam in underdeveloped regions of the world. The more powerfull a religion gets the more horrible it gets in regards to human rights.

Peak christianity has passed a relatively long time ago so most people either dont know of all the atrocities done in the name of the christian god, or they choose to ignore them, some even go as far as saying its not a religion but rather a life philosophy.

The more developed a nation gets, the more the standard of living and education rises and the popularity of religions decline, fact.

Why would the netherlands ban Sharia law? They have their own laws and sharia laws arent applicable in any way anyways? Am I missing something here??

What a dumb and intolerant article anyways... Islam =/= sharia laws etc, there are bad apples in every religion and that doesnt have anything to do with letting islamic immigrants into the country.

PS I deeply dislike all kinds of religion

Problem with muslims is that they consider their religions sharia law as the global law and
Anyone with different views should be considered infidels - wherever country they may be.

Warning: Giant Essay

First,

I believe that survey or whatever was conducted by Geert Wilders or his party right? I'd question if they weren't selective about who they chose to ask. Personally, I think the results are suspect but I'm not a fan of any 'information' gathered via self-reporting.

That being said, I think I fall pretty far on the anti-immigration side of things. I think immigration in general is out of control all over the world but perhaps we can't realistically stop globalization.

My question to people who think immigration is a good thing, and denying people from other places the opportunity to immigrate to Europe is explicitly wrong - is why? Asian countries consistently deny any long term immigration. Some UN member countries even cause a bit of a stir by refusing to take war refugees. Japanese Source and Another.

I don't understand the current politically correct position that accepting immigrants is a morally positive thing to do, and not desiring to do so somehow makes one xenophobic or racist. Why does slowing or restricting immigration to Europe have to be immediately tied to xenophobia.

When I ask people who are pro-immigration why they think it is a good thing I often get a reply that 'it helps the economy by filling low-wage jobs', this is one of the most 'racist' things I consistently hear people say on a regular basis. As if the PC crowd somehow presumes all immigrants will be uneducated unskilled laborers.

On June 10 2013 05:17 Twisted wrote: Then there's Morrocan youngsters. I'm not saying every young person from Morocco or Morrocan descent is bad, but there's a sizable population in this age group that are a big problem. They have zero respect for Dutch values/morals and are constantly a threatening factor on the streets.

I've probably spent upwards of a total of 3 months in the Netherlands over various holidays/trips (admittedly, 100% of which was in Amsterdam and surrounding areas). I've had two different encounters with young Moroccans acting like complete fuckwits in non-tourist areas (one of which included pushing a ~15 year old girl off her moving bicycle for no obvious reason). Seeing them dress and attempt to act like the LA gangbangers they see on TV is pretty sad. It's more troubling when you consider the general culture and nature of native Dutch people and how it is very disruptive to the generally tranquil environment. I'm dropping a heavy anecdote with a small sample size but there is something a bit unnerving even as a tourist when you are walking around far from city center off the beaten path and there aren't even storefronts with signs in Dutch and 16 year old fake-thug jackasses blasting terrible rap music at absurd volumes and staring down anyone who is a stranger to them.

Yes, of course, there are Dutch assholes too and everyone can be an asshole. What is happening in Sweden and Netherlands is NOT multiculturalism. It is immigrant groups moving to select neighborhoods, surrounding themselves with only people from their own backgrounds, and putting up stores/signs everywhere in their own language while maintaining a hostile attitude to any perceived 'outsiders'. If you criticize them for not doing more to envelop themselves to the general dutch culture you are a 'racist' for asking them to adapt to an environment they chose to enter.

The Netherlands isn't North/South America where countries were founded on the ideal of accepting people from all walks of life to form a mosaic or melting pot. It's not 'racist' for the Dutch to expect people who choose to move and live there full time to interact with and in some ways adapt to the native population.

I understand the essay/rant ^ I've submitted is pretty controversial, but I still can't understand what it is exactly that makes Europe in particular a place that MUST accept all immigrants or be labeled racist, where other prosperous countries get a pass on having far stricter immigration laws and rules.

tl;dr: having pockets of mono-cultural immigrants isn't multiculturalism and does nothing positive for native dutch people or the immigrant populations and Europe clearly needs to have a real discussion about immigration without resorting to calling each other racists, terrorists, or anything in-between as I think it's clear that the last few decades of immigration has not been much of a net positive socially from any angle.

On June 09 2013 23:18 Stroggoz wrote: where you go wrong is your definition of what freedom is, it is not what works in practice.

while communism is proven to work in practice, really?

you sound like a broken record, repeating the same and ignoring anything else, barely knowing what libertarian, liberal and corporations mean

On June 09 2013 23:18 Stroggoz wrote: In anarcho capatalism people are also free to accumulate private ownership of factories, land, business and run it like an authoritarian sctructure.

did you just question private ownership???

On June 09 2013 23:18 Stroggoz wrote: And that's whats happened many times before in a democracy like america, ( i've already linked examples to you before) anarcho capitalism would mean complete freedom for totalitarian corporations to do what they want. people argue there is competition and liberty. Ok, it's not competition when you starve someone and then offer them a job that allows them to subsist, and they have no liberty if they have no money to do anything outside of work.

-unsuccessful businesses fail; anyway your examples from current fascist US (which is in fact a republic, not democracy) are irrelevant to free market discussion (as i stated before and you rather decided to ignore it)
-read the definition of corporation, mnj wrote longass post explaining in detail how corporations gets power thru government regulations and are cease to exist w/o government which you obv decided to ignore
-non-qualified ppl are always under pressure coz they have no value on the market, its their fault, there always will be majority of unsuccessful ppl
-an-cap example: if ppl were unhappy, they are free to join your commune and be happy. and others seeing how awesome it is would join right? well that wont happen coz anyone barely qualified would leave and your stupid system would collapse. so actually you are totalirian, forcing your bullshit upon others and denying their rights to promote your stupid ideas of right and wrong. you and other communists know your stupid system wont work unless you force smart and hardworking ppl to work for majority of lazy stupid faggots. while your motives might be good, you are in fact terrible human being :|

On June 09 2013 19:15 dogmeat wrote: yes i am really fanatical about freedom

But you dont want muslims to be able to practice their religion? Isnt that a bit weird? I mean, in a free liberal state anyone should be able to believe in and practice any religion long as this doesnt infringe on other peoples rights. Or do you just completely deny that there is a huge population of secular muslims in europe who all full and well respect a seperation o chuch and state? Certain actions and behaviours are illegal because we have decided they have no place in a modern society. I you try to stone a woman for adultery, we put you in jail. Not because you are a muslim but because you tried to stone a woman to death. Same thing would apply to say, trying to burn a supposed witch at the stake in the name of jesus. We as a society make the laws and decide what you can and cant do, as long as you stay within the confines of these laws you are free to your own beliefs and rituals.

Making laws targeted at a specific religion is just a really shady endeavor, and to me it smells alot more a populism trying to point fingers at one group in society rather than an effort to make the netherlands a more tolerant place.

Im not a fan of religion and I dont think it has any place at all in making policy in a society, but i also believe that humans should respect eachother. You think banning and bombing is the best way to get rid of religious extremism? Cause it hasnt been going stellar so far.

On June 09 2013 22:10 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On June 09 2013 19:02 Stroggoz wrote: http://www.notable-quotes.com/c/capitalism_and_the_wage_system.html i read the whole thing and its one of stupidest things i ve ever read. i m sick of ppl like you trying to force their stupid ideas upon others in the name of 'justice' (coz i assume you are aware of the fact that you are totally free to form a syndicalist commune in an-cap system so basically all your arguments against ancap are irrelevant). i m really really disgusted

also, wtf is this. If you dont want to argue your point at all maybe just stay quiet? "your opinions make me sick" without any explanation, isnt really going to convince anyone. All it does is making you look sooooooo fucking certain you are right you wont even bother to try your viewpoint in an argument. It makes you look dumb.

term secular muslim is a tricky term, you dont see them protesting against the fundamentalists. current state of islam interferes w/ freedom

On June 10 2013 09:49 SakiSaki wrote: Show nested quote + On June 09 2013 22:10 dogmeat wrote:   On June 09 2013 19:02 Stroggoz wrote: http://www.notable-quotes.com/c/capitalism_and_the_wage_system.html i read the whole thing and its one of stupidest things i ve ever read. i m sick of ppl like you trying to force their stupid ideas upon others in the name of 'justice' (coz i assume you are aware of the fact that you are totally free to form a syndicalist commune in an-cap system so basically all your arguments against ancap are irrelevant). i m really really disgusted also, wtf is this. If you dont want to argue your point at all maybe just stay quiet? "your opinions make me sick" without any explanation, isnt really going to convince anyone. All it does is making you look sooooooo fucking certain you are right you wont even bother to try your viewpoint in an argument. It makes you look dumb.

maybe you should sometimes stay quiet instead of jumping in the middle of some elses conversations w/o knowing any history

the ultimate reason why I am pro immigration has little to do with my personal life in norway. I just idealize this world where the birth lottery doesn't completely define your future happiness. That is, I don't see how I am more entitled to wealth and prosperity through being born by a norwegian woman in norway than someone born into desperate poverty in somalia. Say, if a norwegian happens to be born in some tiny norwegian village, and then for some reason that norwegian is bullied, for what could or could not be his or her fault, then that person can uproot and change location to get a fresh start and a better chance at happiness. I want this opportunity to apply to a global stage; if you're born in a shitty place and into a shitty life, you can relocate and find happiness somewhere else.

Further, I think helping the less fortunate is a moral obligation of the fortunate, and I think the more people who share this general philosophy the better off mankind will be.

Honestly, I think, and hope, that most people can agree with this. So what the immigration debate actually should be (and sometimes is), is one of proportions, regarding magnitude of immigrants, and one of mutual adjustment, in the sense of how should we expect immigrants to alter their behavior when coming to european countries, and how far should we go in accomodating their culture.

And then, just like I myself must reject the idea of completely free/nonexistant borders (although it is what I idealize) because I accept that there has to be some degree of control to preserve norwegian standard of living and that if norwegian standard of living is actually hampered by immigration then immigrants will be subject to hatred and mistreatment in such a way that my reasoning for wanting immigrants to be allowed to freely come to norway would not be fulfilled (as they would not find happiness here), then people of the opinion that immigration has come too far and that we cannot accept any more, must accept that some immigration has to continue, and that our immigration policy cannot alienate those who are already here.

The first because of international obligations and the principle of helping refugees and allowing persecuted people to seek asylum, and the second because if our immigration policies are too alienating then the separation of cultures is proliferated and integration is hampered.

Finding the actual balance is genuinely hard though. I think in norway, and probably most of europe, too much of the immigration has been centered around poor regions of the capital / other big cities. I have no problems accepting that say, rotterdam, has too high concentration of morrocans in certain areas.
normally you see that immigrants who settled in smaller towns whom only really had norwegians to interact with are much better integrated (and much more appreciated by their local communities)- and this is natural. There's probably some selection bias in there as well, in the sense that immigrants who want to be integrated will naturally be more prone to moving away from communities from their own countries.

I wish that say, asylum seekers, would receive education from day two of arriving in their new countries, rather than having no real hope of establishing in their new countries and experiencing that their lives are basically "put on indefinite hold". We must also be absolutely clear in that european law supercedes any religious or regional laws that are brought along with immigrants. But we also cannot ban muslim immigration. In norway, that would be like telling 3% of the population that they are unwanted; in norway this amounts to something like 150k-200k of the population. Holland, and many other western european countries have significantly more. it's not like we can just kick these people out, that would be an absolutely gross violation of human rights, and we also cannot just ignore them or their plights, because then they are likely to become frustrated in such a way that tensions increase.

It's not an easy topic. But personally, I want any political policy to have the goal of accomplishing as many integrated immigrants as possible. I'm certain that through exploring policies of western european countries of the past three decades, you will find multiple transgressions from both sides of the political spectrum, in the sense that left-leaning parties have been accepting and accomodating in a way that has functioned as a hinderment of real integration, and that right-leaning parties have been rejecting and alienating in such a way that the outcome has essentially been the same.

On June 10 2013 09:50 dogmeat wrote: term secular muslim is a tricky term, you dont see them protesting against the fundamentalists. current state of islam interferes w/ freedom Show nested quote + On June 10 2013 09:49 SakiSaki wrote:   On June 09 2013 22:10 dogmeat wrote:   On June 09 2013 19:02 Stroggoz wrote: http://www.notable-quotes.com/c/capitalism_and_the_wage_system.html i read the whole thing and its one of stupidest things i ve ever read. i m sick of ppl like you trying to force their stupid ideas upon others in the name of 'justice' (coz i assume you are aware of the fact that you are totally free to form a syndicalist commune in an-cap system so basically all your arguments against ancap are irrelevant). i m really really disgusted also, wtf is this. If you dont want to argue your point at all maybe just stay quiet? "your opinions make me sick" without any explanation, isnt really going to convince anyone. All it does is making you look sooooooo fucking certain you are right you wont even bother to try your viewpoint in an argument. It makes you look dumb. maybe you should sometimes stay quiet instead of jumping in the middle of some elses conversations w/o knowing any history

Oh, so people are not really free to do and think(within the law) what they want in a free society? To earn the right muslims now have to protest other more radical muslims is that it? Religious freedom with conditions, interesting. Or are you saying that secular muslims just dont exist. Deep down they are all rotten and should be cast out? You are indeed quite the liberal sir.

Lets pretend i was a muslim living in sweden. I was just the same as i am right now with the exception that i as pray 5 times a day and going to a mosk every once in a while, regularily reading the quran. Im totally loving my life, never felt happier, feeling free as a bird. Now you are telling me I cant do that anymore because my religion interferes with your view of what freedom is? Fuck you and let me do what i want maybe? You are going to make me more free by preventing me from doing certain things. Excellent idea!

I have read most of your posts and most of the arguments you and stroggoz have had in the past so Im quite informed. My respons wasnt really just about that post but rather an observation of many conversations all showing the same thing. You are an angry and narrow minded little person who deep down thinks that if just everyone though more like you the world would be awesome. Sadly lacking the intellectual capacity to fomulate your views in a coherent fasion you are forced to settle on calling anyone who disagrees for a communist/nazi/whatever else you feel apropriate to discredit the oposition rather than meeting their arguments. Its sad and counterproductive. In my opinion, trying your views and against differing ones in arguments is a great way of evolving intelectually, shouting moron to anyone who disagrees is unfortunately not.

On June 10 2013 09:50 dogmeat wrote: term secular muslim is a tricky term, you dont see them protesting against the fundamentalists. current state of islam interferes w/ freedom

secular christians don't protest against christian fundamentalists either. I'm a white atheist and I'm not walking around apologizing to christians for the militant internet-atheists, even though they piss me off.

ive also talked to a secular muslim about this; he said that he just didn't care that much about religion and considering how he doesn't really consider himself religious, he doesn't want to get heavily invested in debating religion against people who are negatively predisposed towards him anyway. it makes perfect sense to me. most secular muslims just have better things to do than walking around apologizing for how more fundamentalist muslims behave. Additionally, even though they will be in disagreement with fundamentalist muslims, they also often share some degree of connectivity with more fundamentalist muslims and they want to maintain friendships despite this. Which also makes sense; I have many friends whose political opinions I find flat out wrong or terrible. I don't constantly engage them, because it'd be boring as fuck to be my friend then, and I just don't always care all that much.

On June 09 2013 22:13 dogmeat wrote: and i m sorry i cant tolerate a religion worshipping murderer, thief, rapist and child molester, having no respest for a human life and persecuting freedom and free will. apparently it makes a bad person

This is hugely incorrect. It's only the extreme fundamentalists (a very large minority) that persecute freedom and free will. It's the same 'sect' that also believes in Jihad. It's too bad that the entirety of a religion is defined by a few bad apples, but such is life. C'mon dogmeat, you don't actually believe what you wrote, do you?

On June 10 2013 08:16 HaiVan wrote: Islam is at its peak right now due to all the oil money in the middle east being used to promote islam in underdeveloped regions of the world.

There have been numerous times throughout history when the Arab states have wielded much much more power than they do now. Hell, The majority of Europe used to have to form a coalition at times (a very rare thing back in the 12-15th centuries) just to keep them at bay.

On June 10 2013 08:41 whamm! wrote: Problem with muslims is that they consider their religions sharia law as the global law and Anyone with different views should be considered infidels - wherever country they may be.

Problem with humanity in general is to assume knowledge and superiority before critically thinking about what it is they (falsely) believe to be fact. Yes, of course they believe their religion to be right. Guess what? So does every other person who practices religion. As for the infidel part, that is a very tiny % of the number of people who practice Islam. Sadly, it's this very tiny amount that blow shit up and get headlines all across the world.

On June 10 2013 09:04 nolan wrote: tl;dr: having pockets of mono-cultural immigrants isn't multiculturalism and does nothing positive for native dutch people or the immigrant populations and Europe clearly needs to have a real discussion about immigration without resorting to calling each other racists, terrorists, or anything in-between as I think it's clear that the last few decades of immigration has not been much of a net positive socially from any angle.

Very well put.


Anyways - this is all coming from someone who thinks all organized religion is the devil (har har, see what I did there?). Dog and Strogg, you guys gotta chill!

On June 10 2013 10:14 SakiSaki wrote: Show nested quote + On June 10 2013 09:50 dogmeat wrote: term secular muslim is a tricky term, you dont see them protesting against the fundamentalists. current state of islam interferes w/ freedom   On June 10 2013 09:49 SakiSaki wrote:   On June 09 2013 22:10 dogmeat wrote:   On June 09 2013 19:02 Stroggoz wrote: http://www.notable-quotes.com/c/capitalism_and_the_wage_system.html i read the whole thing and its one of stupidest things i ve ever read. i m sick of ppl like you trying to force their stupid ideas upon others in the name of 'justice' (coz i assume you are aware of the fact that you are totally free to form a syndicalist commune in an-cap system so basically all your arguments against ancap are irrelevant). i m really really disgusted also, wtf is this. If you dont want to argue your point at all maybe just stay quiet? "your opinions make me sick" without any explanation, isnt really going to convince anyone. All it does is making you look sooooooo fucking certain you are right you wont even bother to try your viewpoint in an argument. It makes you look dumb. maybe you should sometimes stay quiet instead of jumping in the middle of some elses conversations w/o knowing any history Oh, so people are not really free to do and think(within the law) what they want in a free society? To earn the right muslims now have to protest other more radical muslims is that it? Religious freedom with conditions, interesting. Or are you saying that secular muslims just dont exist. Deep down they are all rotten and should be cast out? You are indeed quite the liberal sir. Lets pretend i was a muslim living in sweden. I was just the same as i am right now with the exception that i as pray 5 times a day and going to a mosk every once in a while, regularily reading the quran. Im totally loving my life, never felt happier, feeling free as a bird. Now you are telling me I cant do that anymore because my religion interferes with your view of what freedom is? Fuck you and let me do what i want maybe? You are going to make me more free by preventing me from doing certain things. Excellent idea! I have read most of your posts and most of the arguments you and stroggoz have had in the past so Im quite informed. My respons wasnt really just about that post but rather an observation of many conversations all showing the same thing. You are an angry and narrow minded little person who deep down thinks that if just everyone though more like you the world would be awesome. Sadly lacking the intellectual capacity to fomulate your views in a coherent fasion you are forced to settle on calling anyone who disagrees for a communist/nazi/whatever else you feel apropriate to discredit the oposition rather than meeting their arguments. Its sad and counterproductive. In my opinion, trying your views and against differing ones in arguments is a great way of evolving intelectually, shouting moron to anyone who disagrees is unfortunately not.

still hating me bro? :D i wasnt aware of the fact you read our private conversation... anyway i like how you completely ignored commune argument and just went on well-phrased rant how big of a moron i am and also attacked my inteligence.
yes i am angry at strogz coz hes repeating same phrase constatnly and ignores everything and everyone, funny how you attacked me for the same thing. yes it makes me sick how he went from someone thinking fascism is bad to full-blown communist retard questioning private property and division of labour
i also demand a quote when i called someone a moron

and the part about islam is not true, its complete fiction on your part, i was just pointing out you cant just divide muslims on secular/nonsecular coz its obv a scale ... where exactly do you draw the line? also i would argue majority of muslims in say afganistan is secular, they just cant escape and has to go with the crowd. so it only takes a bunch of fundamentalists to run the show and the rest will follow

On June 09 2013 21:51 MiPwnYa wrote: Show nested quote + On June 09 2013 19:12 Baalim wrote:   On June 09 2013 17:36 MiPwnYa wrote: I think its fairly reasonnable to hate most religions sayin that islam is worse than the other ones dsnt make much sense tho All religions are stupid but Islam is indeed far worse, what other religion stone people to death for adultery and deny basic human rights to women? Islam is barbaric and its influence should be stopped in the modern world, it has absolutely nothing to do with racism, as someone said since when is Islam a race? Well, I guess christianism has caused lots of harm in the past too and has been anything but a tolerant religion as well ? I'm not an expert but both islam, catholicism and protestantism have quite a heavy shitbaggage dont they ? And when the word racism was used ITT I assume it was used as in prejudice in general, hating muslims as a whole is obv a form of racism lol

Oh dont worry, you dont have to sell me on hating other religions, I despise them all and if it were for me I would impale the pope in St. Peter's along with his primeratis but this is a cultural things, Catholics have slowly evolved and while they are a baggage for science and other things, at least they are not stoning people to death, allowing society to crawl back to the dark ages all in the name of freedom of religion of pseudo racism is retarded.

Drone is right tho, the bad thing about this is that true racists mix up with us with a reasonable argument.

On June 10 2013 16:45 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On June 10 2013 10:14 SakiSaki wrote:   On June 10 2013 09:50 dogmeat wrote: term secular muslim is a tricky term, you dont see them protesting against the fundamentalists. current state of islam interferes w/ freedom   On June 10 2013 09:49 SakiSaki wrote:   On June 09 2013 22:10 dogmeat wrote:   On June 09 2013 19:02 Stroggoz wrote: http://www.notable-quotes.com/c/capitalism_and_the_wage_system.html i read the whole thing and its one of stupidest things i ve ever read. i m sick of ppl like you trying to force their stupid ideas upon others in the name of 'justice' (coz i assume you are aware of the fact that you are totally free to form a syndicalist commune in an-cap system so basically all your arguments against ancap are irrelevant). i m really really disgusted also, wtf is this. If you dont want to argue your point at all maybe just stay quiet? "your opinions make me sick" without any explanation, isnt really going to convince anyone. All it does is making you look sooooooo fucking certain you are right you wont even bother to try your viewpoint in an argument. It makes you look dumb. maybe you should sometimes stay quiet instead of jumping in the middle of some elses conversations w/o knowing any history Oh, so people are not really free to do and think(within the law) what they want in a free society? To earn the right muslims now have to protest other more radical muslims is that it? Religious freedom with conditions, interesting. Or are you saying that secular muslims just dont exist. Deep down they are all rotten and should be cast out? You are indeed quite the liberal sir. Lets pretend i was a muslim living in sweden. I was just the same as i am right now with the exception that i as pray 5 times a day and going to a mosk every once in a while, regularily reading the quran. Im totally loving my life, never felt happier, feeling free as a bird. Now you are telling me I cant do that anymore because my religion interferes with your view of what freedom is? Fuck you and let me do what i want maybe? You are going to make me more free by preventing me from doing certain things. Excellent idea! I have read most of your posts and most of the arguments you and stroggoz have had in the past so Im quite informed. My respons wasnt really just about that post but rather an observation of many conversations all showing the same thing. You are an angry and narrow minded little person who deep down thinks that if just everyone though more like you the world would be awesome. Sadly lacking the intellectual capacity to fomulate your views in a coherent fasion you are forced to settle on calling anyone who disagrees for a communist/nazi/whatever else you feel apropriate to discredit the oposition rather than meeting their arguments. Its sad and counterproductive. In my opinion, trying your views and against differing ones in arguments is a great way of evolving intelectually, shouting moron to anyone who disagrees is unfortunately not. still hating me bro? :D i wasnt aware of the fact you read our private conversation... anyway i like how you completely ignored commune argument and just went on well-phrased rant how big of a moron i am and also attacked my inteligence. yes i am angry at strogz coz hes repeating same phrase constatnly and ignores everything and everyone, funny how you attacked me for the same thing. yes it makes me sick how he went from someone thinking fascism is bad to full-blown communist retard questioning private property and division of labour i also demand a quote when i called someone a moron and the part about islam is not true, its complete fiction on your part, i was just pointing out you cant just divide muslims on secular/nonsecular coz its obv a scale ... where exactly do you draw the line? also i would argue majority of muslims in say afganistan is secular, they just cant escape and has to go with the crowd. so it only takes a bunch of fundamentalists to run the show and the rest will follow

I promise to do better i you do. I didnt ignore the debate, I just wrote a seperate piece on why you come of as a retard.

The line is drawn with our laws I already told you. We dont need to draw special lines for islam. Its funny how you think you somehow have the right to decide how ppl live their lives, even when their way of living doesnt infringe on other peoples lives what so ever.

On June 10 2013 09:35 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On June 09 2013 23:18 Stroggoz wrote: where you go wrong is your definition of what freedom is, it is not what works in practice. while communism is proven to work in practice, really? you sound like a broken record, repeating the same and ignoring anything else, barely knowing what libertarian, liberal and corporations mean   On June 09 2013 23:18 Stroggoz wrote: In anarcho capatalism people are also free to accumulate private ownership of factories, land, business and run it like an authoritarian sctructure. did you just question private ownership???   On June 09 2013 23:18 Stroggoz wrote: And that's whats happened many times before in a democracy like america, ( i've already linked examples to you before) anarcho capitalism would mean complete freedom for totalitarian corporations to do what they want. people argue there is competition and liberty. Ok, it's not competition when you starve someone and then offer them a job that allows them to subsist, and they have no liberty if they have no money to do anything outside of work. -unsuccessful businesses fail; anyway your examples from current fascist US (which is in fact a republic, not democracy) are irrelevant to free market discussion (as i stated before and you rather decided to ignore it) -read the definition of corporation, mnj wrote longass post explaining in detail how corporations gets power thru government regulations and are cease to exist w/o government which you obv decided to ignore -non-qualified ppl are always under pressure coz they have no value on the market, its their fault, there always will be majority of unsuccessful ppl -an-cap example: if ppl were unhappy, they are free to join your commune and be happy. and others seeing how awesome it is would join right? well that wont happen coz anyone barely qualified would leave and your stupid system would collapse. so actually you are totalirian, forcing your bullshit upon others and denying their rights to promote your stupid ideas of right and wrong. you and other communists know your stupid system wont work unless you force smart and hardworking ppl to work for majority of lazy stupid faggots. while your motives might be good, you are in fact terrible human being :|

well like half of that stuff you said about me is complete fabrication. I've never advocated communism. You seem to think just because i argue against one thing it makes me another, when in fact i could be a million other things. i happen to see many flaws in syndicalism as well. It's not perfect but it's alot better than a top down run institution

Syndicalism doesn't mean it has communal values as well. All it means is that the power structure of an institution is run bottom upwards instead of top down. i don't understand why anyone not at the top would want it run from top-down since the decisions are left to one persons self interests, instead of the interests of 99% of the people inside of that institution.

When i was criticizing free markets, it was how they were practiced in the real world. There happens to be an argument for protectionism for poor agrarian countries because it would allow them to compete. There happens to be an argument against protectionism when rich countries protect their farmers for votes(and destroying the ability for poor countries to compete in agriculture) I happen to think free markets in theory are good. I also have a lot of respect for mnj, he is willing to have a good argument.

On June 10 2013 09:04 nolan wrote: Warning: Giant Essay When I ask people who are pro-immigration why they think it is a good thing I often get a reply that 'it helps the economy by filling low-wage jobs', this is one of the most 'racist' things I consistently hear people say on a regular basis. As if the PC crowd somehow presumes all immigrants will be uneducated unskilled laborers.

This is imo a very interesting point, and i 100% agree with you.

I think this a part of racism that is underlooked. They want to integrate people into their society, so they can have a class based system, where the immigrants do the jobs that are wage slavery. And then socio economic problems arise, you have all these poor people from one race being the poor class, and they start having crime problems. This is when it is easy for others to become racist, - it makes sense for them to be racist just based on observation of poor Moroccan kids being retards.

In the 1960's in New Zealand this is what happened to the Maori. There was a big campaign to get the rest of them who were still living in rural areas and on hills, and into the cities so they could do manual labor. Now they make up 50% of the jail population, have alcohol abuse problems and are the world leaders in child abuse.

This is in an essence what 'multiculturalism' is. Just a more humane version of slavery.

On June 10 2013 18:22 SakiSaki wrote: Show nested quote + On June 10 2013 16:45 dogmeat wrote:   On June 10 2013 10:14 SakiSaki wrote:   On June 10 2013 09:50 dogmeat wrote: term secular muslim is a tricky term, you dont see them protesting against the fundamentalists. current state of islam interferes w/ freedom   On June 10 2013 09:49 SakiSaki wrote:   On June 09 2013 22:10 dogmeat wrote:   On June 09 2013 19:02 Stroggoz wrote: http://www.notable-quotes.com/c/capitalism_and_the_wage_system.html i read the whole thing and its one of stupidest things i ve ever read. i m sick of ppl like you trying to force their stupid ideas upon others in the name of 'justice' (coz i assume you are aware of the fact that you are totally free to form a syndicalist commune in an-cap system so basically all your arguments against ancap are irrelevant). i m really really disgusted also, wtf is this. If you dont want to argue your point at all maybe just stay quiet? "your opinions make me sick" without any explanation, isnt really going to convince anyone. All it does is making you look sooooooo fucking certain you are right you wont even bother to try your viewpoint in an argument. It makes you look dumb. maybe you should sometimes stay quiet instead of jumping in the middle of some elses conversations w/o knowing any history Oh, so people are not really free to do and think(within the law) what they want in a free society? To earn the right muslims now have to protest other more radical muslims is that it? Religious freedom with conditions, interesting. Or are you saying that secular muslims just dont exist. Deep down they are all rotten and should be cast out? You are indeed quite the liberal sir. Lets pretend i was a muslim living in sweden. I was just the same as i am right now with the exception that i as pray 5 times a day and going to a mosk every once in a while, regularily reading the quran. Im totally loving my life, never felt happier, feeling free as a bird. Now you are telling me I cant do that anymore because my religion interferes with your view of what freedom is? Fuck you and let me do what i want maybe? You are going to make me more free by preventing me from doing certain things. Excellent idea! I have read most of your posts and most of the arguments you and stroggoz have had in the past so Im quite informed. My respons wasnt really just about that post but rather an observation of many conversations all showing the same thing. You are an angry and narrow minded little person who deep down thinks that if just everyone though more like you the world would be awesome. Sadly lacking the intellectual capacity to fomulate your views in a coherent fasion you are forced to settle on calling anyone who disagrees for a communist/nazi/whatever else you feel apropriate to discredit the oposition rather than meeting their arguments. Its sad and counterproductive. In my opinion, trying your views and against differing ones in arguments is a great way of evolving intelectually, shouting moron to anyone who disagrees is unfortunately not. still hating me bro? :D i wasnt aware of the fact you read our private conversation... anyway i like how you completely ignored commune argument and just went on well-phrased rant how big of a moron i am and also attacked my inteligence. yes i am angry at strogz coz hes repeating same phrase constatnly and ignores everything and everyone, funny how you attacked me for the same thing. yes it makes me sick how he went from someone thinking fascism is bad to full-blown communist retard questioning private property and division of labour i also demand a quote when i called someone a moron and the part about islam is not true, its complete fiction on your part, i was just pointing out you cant just divide muslims on secular/nonsecular coz its obv a scale ... where exactly do you draw the line? also i would argue majority of muslims in say afganistan is secular, they just cant escape and has to go with the crowd. so it only takes a bunch of fundamentalists to run the show and the rest will follow Its funny how you think you somehow have the right to decide how ppl live their lives, even when their way of living doesnt infringe on other peoples lives what so ever.

glad that you are amused but i never did this

On June 10 2013 18:51 Stroggoz wrote: well like half of that stuff you said about me is complete fabrication. I've never advocated communism. You seem to think just because i argue against one thing it makes me another, when in fact i could be a million other things. i happen to see many flaws in syndicalism as well. It's not perfect but it's alot better than a top down run institution

glad you again ignored my whole post and repeat urself again and again... anyway bolded part is ur fabrication .. i know you dont label yourself as communist but you are against "accumulation of private ownership of factories, land, business and running it like an authoritarian sctructure" and quoting bertnard russel ..

look since you are against "accumulation of private ownership of factories, land, business and running it like an authoritarian sctructure", there has to exist an entity to provent this from happening and force down-top structure ... and you know what youve got

On June 10 2013 18:51 Stroggoz wrote: i don't understand why anyone not at the top would want it run from top-down since the decisions are left to one persons self interests, instead of the interests of 99% of the people inside of that institution.

well thats not your fucking business, nor employees, you have no right whatsoever to tell someone how they should run their business, employees are free to leave to start their own syndicalist unions

On June 10 2013 18:51 Stroggoz wrote: When i was criticizing free markets, it was how they were practiced in the real world.

you are constantly using highly regulated markets as an example against free markets ... how do you not get this?

glad that you are amused but i never did this

Yeah its hard to know really what you mean most of the time. Just so much emotion

On June 09 2013 16:32 Gumster wrote: that poll clearly indicates that there are strong anti-islamic tendencies in holland. it's a notion that has been spreading throughout europe for the last couple of years. we've seen it in sweden as well, as our 3rd biggest party is now a party with racist policies who basically want close to no immigration. 63% say they want no new mosques? it's a peaceful place where people practice religion (and its important for many other reasons, such as social, cultural ones etc), and saying that you dont want any new mosques means you dont think muslims should have a right to practice their religion. basically they are getting all this hate because of states like iran that use religion to control people and stay in power, and because of people's own governments who can't integrate immigrants properly which leads to a load of socioeconomic problems. there's an islamification of europe going on? bitch please.

oh no, one of those swedes that thinks a party that has NOTHING racist in their party platform, that wants less immigration etc is racist, to many of you. i myself consider myself a socialist, but to not even be able to even talk about the problems that big immigrationwaves of people from an complete other culture causes makes me ashamed of my country its not about racism, its politics, jesus christ. have you completely missed what happened lately in sweden gumster? isnt that a problem caused by bad immigration politics? i as a socialist dont favor the party you're talking about (Sweden Democrats) but i even more despite the political correctness that makes anyone who speaks about this considered a racist. it IS a problem when an immigration policy has led to a decline in economics to some extent and the recent problems in sweden speaks for themselves, we have put all our immigrants (to many in a to short period) in the same places, now they are burning up ambulances all over sweden? firetrucks, hates the police. this builds a segregated country. even i as a Socialist as starting to question if the so called "multicultural" society is actually the best one. when i say multicultural im not talking about NO immigration, but in sweden its massive and fast from the arab world, and the cultures are crashing constantly. we also have so many laws that favour the immigrants its ridic. multiculture - sure, but please - to some extent.

ive actually been proven wrong that this would be no problem, but we can surely see after all these years of massive immigration to sweden the negative aspects of it, alot of the fault goes to mainstream media who's all scared of saying even a word about anything with immigration, politicians refusing to see the problem, cause it would "hurt their party to tell the truth" which is an actually quote from a politician in the second biggest party in sweden. please dont let political correctness make us unable to make wise political decisions sad times to actually find out that sweden (that has taken the most immigrants % wise in the history of the modern world faster then ever) is a failure, wish it would have worked. its a fucking experiment, please dont experiment with our lives thanks you.

so many immigrant dont work, but sweden dont even want to show statistics of this and of so many of the negative aspects of massive immigration. i think in a lets say 10-100 years (who knows) we will say, what the fuck did those politcians doing (in Sweden) hiding these kind of things from the public. my 5000000 billion cents!

im def not against immigration, but i am for a political climate where we can speak about these things like any other political question.

night.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and if you think the newly proselytized, converted and educated are secular Muslims, then you are deluding yourself. What is being preached is a submission to god, an abject relationship with Allah, Muhammad and his preaching in an interpretation that is not compatible with human rights and western philosophy.

The problem with non-secular Muslims is that they will impose it on their government to impose sharia, impose their world-view and/or ban free-speech, discussion and debate on anything that will demonize it. The entire world at the time of the fatwah against Salom Rushdie by the ayatollah Khomeini to suborn murder of a fiction writer of an entirely different country agreed that it WAS THE WRITER'S FAULT for insulting it. These aren't just fundamental Muslims that are the problem. These are people who are AFRAID of retaliation of being accused of bigotry, afraid of being accused of the ridiculous term "Islamophobe" that you cannot question/criticize or demonize it and it's a blatant insult to democracy and free-speech.

The danish cartoons are also a good example of the world's view and tolerance of Islam. It's shameful.

The people who think like this are not in the vast minority. It is a part of their religion and a part of their texts in the Hadiths and the Koran.

On June 10 2013 10:10 Liquid`Drone wrote: the ultimate reason why I am pro immigration has little to do with my personal life in norway. I just idealize this world where the birth lottery doesn't completely define your future happiness. That is, I don't see how I am more entitled to wealth and prosperity through being born by a norwegian woman in norway than someone born into desperate poverty in somalia.

happiness is a pretty wide concept. as i see it we always go out from our own perception of happiness, so we see someone in only a hut and a loincloth and think he must be unhappy cause he has, in our opinion, nothing.
however this guy could be the happiest man in the world because he finally caught a boar or a fish yesterday after not eating for 2 days. but when you show him a picture of a trawler with 50 tons of fish on board he ofcourse would want to move to a place where catching fish is that easy.

i guess what i am trying to say is: ignorance is bliss.

On June 11 2013 00:06 Tensai176 wrote: The people who think like this are not in the vast minority. It is a part of their religion and a part of their texts in the Hadiths and the Koran.

"A part of their texts"? Really? You have any idea how much shit has went down because of what's in the 'texts' of Christianity bible bullshit? Or what it entails? Gotta love religion, making morons out of people everywhere. No, I'm not calling you a moron btw, just stating the hilarity of your argument when you actually compare the koran to the bible with regard to whose dogma is more 'appropriate'.

And yes Tensai, the reason for all the Islam prejudice today IS because of the VAST minority of muslims who follow the fundamentalist values which believe in Jihad (death to infidels, etc.).

I don't think I have to go out on much of a limb to state that Christianity is currently the mother-fucker of all religions.

On June 10 2013 19:33 Stroggoz wrote: In the 1960's in New Zealand this is what happened to the Maori.

They Once Were Warriors.

this is such a delicate matter, which makes the OP title seem retarded. Islamophobia is a fact and gathers a lot attention from people seeking scapegoats...
Some of the atheists in here should be cautious of the alliances they are willing to make, paranoid Christians are far from the exception in the ranks of the Islamophobic. Banning people from Islamic countries to immigrate could very well mean religious polarization and not "the end of all religion starting from the worst".
Should people denounce their religion to immigrate? Or are all immigrants banned because they were born in x part of the world? These are all delicate matters and not to be approached with sportsfan mentality like " I AGREE WITH YOU YOU SO SMART DUTCH PPL".

I remember not long ago while browsing 9gag ot TLnet I saw a lot of Dutch ppl commenting on the greek debt euro crisis with a lot of derogatory and false statements about the greeks. I am one of the less patriotic people I know but the statements/tone I saw over and over were not justified and it gave me the impression that perhaps the media in Holland have some sort of agenda or maybe Dutch people have the inclination to seek for scapegoats. I hope this is not true, I've been to Holland and met many friendly people

On June 11 2013 09:17 lebowski wrote: this is such a delicate matter, which makes the OP title seem retarded. Islamophobia is a fact and gathers a lot attention from people seeking scapegoats... Some of the atheists in here should be cautious of the alliances they are willing to make, paranoid Christians are far from the exception in the ranks of the Islamophobic. Banning people from Islamic countries to immigrate could very well mean religious polarization and not "the end of all religion starting from the worst". Should people denounce their religion to immigrate? Or are all immigrants banned because they were born in x part of the world? These are all delicate matters and not to be approached with sportsfan mentality like " I AGREE WITH YOU YOU SO SMART DUTCH PPL". I remember not long ago while browsing 9gag ot TLnet I saw a lot of Dutch ppl commenting on the greek debt euro crisis with a lot of derogatory and false statements about the greeks. I am one of the less patriotic people I know but the statements/tone I saw over and over were not justified and it gave me the impression that perhaps the media in Holland have some sort of agenda or maybe Dutch people have the inclination to seek for scapegoats. I hope this is not true, I've been to Holland and met many friendly people

oh you have met friendly people, must mean everyone are generalisations go each way my friend. are you perhaps religions yourself my friend? just wondering.

On June 11 2013 16:19 inc wrote: Show nested quote + On June 11 2013 09:17 lebowski wrote: this is such a delicate matter, which makes the OP title seem retarded. Islamophobia is a fact and gathers a lot attention from people seeking scapegoats... Some of the atheists in here should be cautious of the alliances they are willing to make, paranoid Christians are far from the exception in the ranks of the Islamophobic. Banning people from Islamic countries to immigrate could very well mean religious polarization and not "the end of all religion starting from the worst". Should people denounce their religion to immigrate? Or are all immigrants banned because they were born in x part of the world? These are all delicate matters and not to be approached with sportsfan mentality like " I AGREE WITH YOU YOU SO SMART DUTCH PPL". I remember not long ago while browsing 9gag ot TLnet I saw a lot of Dutch ppl commenting on the greek debt euro crisis with a lot of derogatory and false statements about the greeks. I am one of the less patriotic people I know but the statements/tone I saw over and over were not justified and it gave me the impression that perhaps the media in Holland have some sort of agenda or maybe Dutch people have the inclination to seek for scapegoats. I hope this is not true, I've been to Holland and met many friendly people oh you have met friendly people, must mean everyone are generalisations go each way my friend. are you perhaps religions yourself my friend? just wondering.

where did I say anything close to what you say I did? The people I have met were friendly and sensible and I hope (hope, not know) most Dutch people are the same (and not like the ppl I saw commenting in internet forums). I am not religious, why do you ask? What good is it calling me "my friend" 100 times if you are going to sarcastically comment on something I didn't even say?

On June 09 2013 16:47 TalentedTom wrote: Things would be better off if there was a way to get rid of all religions.

I actually disagree with this. People would just find something equally silly to argue about. Like that South Park episode where they visit a future with no religion and people just argue over who's science is better and bow down to one order of science or another.

On June 11 2013 16:51 Bejamin1 wrote: Show nested quote + On June 09 2013 16:47 TalentedTom wrote: Things would be better off if there was a way to get rid of all religions. I actually disagree with this. People would just find something equally silly to argue about. Like that South Park episode where they visit a future with no religion and people just argue over who's science is better and bow down to one order of science or another.

cant be more than once science since it only uses one method and competing methods (trying to prove somebody wrong) is what makes science progress.

On June 11 2013 16:43 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On June 11 2013 16:19 inc wrote:   On June 11 2013 09:17 lebowski wrote: this is such a delicate matter, which makes the OP title seem retarded. Islamophobia is a fact and gathers a lot attention from people seeking scapegoats... Some of the atheists in here should be cautious of the alliances they are willing to make, paranoid Christians are far from the exception in the ranks of the Islamophobic. Banning people from Islamic countries to immigrate could very well mean religious polarization and not "the end of all religion starting from the worst". Should people denounce their religion to immigrate? Or are all immigrants banned because they were born in x part of the world? These are all delicate matters and not to be approached with sportsfan mentality like " I AGREE WITH YOU YOU SO SMART DUTCH PPL". I remember not long ago while browsing 9gag ot TLnet I saw a lot of Dutch ppl commenting on the greek debt euro crisis with a lot of derogatory and false statements about the greeks. I am one of the less patriotic people I know but the statements/tone I saw over and over were not justified and it gave me the impression that perhaps the media in Holland have some sort of agenda or maybe Dutch people have the inclination to seek for scapegoats. I hope this is not true, I've been to Holland and met many friendly people oh you have met friendly people, must mean everyone are generalisations go each way my friend. are you perhaps religions yourself my friend? just wondering. where did I say anything close to what you say I did? The people I have met were friendly and sensible and I hope (hope, not know) most Dutch people are the same (and not like the ppl I saw commenting in internet forums). I am not religious, why do you ask? What good is it calling me "my friend" 100 times if you are going to sarcastically comment on something I didn't even say?

haha sorry, sometimes being stoned while reading/writing makes you more creative, but also makes you miss some points sometimes i realize now what you meant, honestly i think i only read the last line and draw a conclusion, my bad, memory fucked. nonetheless my point is right - but not pointed to you (havent read your whole post now cos tired as fuck and a lil blaze 10 mins ago, so you might be wrong somewhere! BEWARE! BE WRONG ON INTERNET AND YOURE FUCKED! peace my luv

another small input here - in the nordic countries its considers "beautiful" to love everything with immigration, see no wrong with it no matter what happens, its always someone/something else fault, not the immigrants or even the immigration POLITICS - and these people are so much smarter and kind - i was one of those thinking i was just that, but realized REALIZE the truth is actually the smarter thing to do. there is problems with massive immigration - multiculture to some extent yes please, but dont experiment with our lifes by hiding facts and shit from us - thats facist if something.

immigration has always existed, but not in the same way as now, we have to be careful with our political decisions.

in my eyes a slow immigration process is what to strive for, to accomplish a decent multicultural society.

/socialist

On June 11 2013 01:10 ichiro wrote: Show nested quote + On June 10 2013 10:10 Liquid`Drone wrote: the ultimate reason why I am pro immigration has little to do with my personal life in norway. I just idealize this world where the birth lottery doesn't completely define your future happiness. That is, I don't see how I am more entitled to wealth and prosperity through being born by a norwegian woman in norway than someone born into desperate poverty in somalia. happiness is a pretty wide concept. as i see it we always go out from our own perception of happiness, so we see someone in only a hut and a loincloth and think he must be unhappy cause he has, in our opinion, nothing. however this guy could be the happiest man in the world because he finally caught a boar or a fish yesterday after not eating for 2 days. but when you show him a picture of a trawler with 50 tons of fish on board he ofcourse would want to move to a place where catching fish is that easy. i guess what i am trying to say is: ignorance is bliss.

so true, studies even says poor tribes in africa and such are much happier then the western modern man. technology has overrun us, we cant cope - so much performance anxiety, simply so many "musts" while they are more where we are biologically evolutionwise in their societys, more basic needs - food, roof over your head etc. very good post!

Not being in africa is awesome!

On June 11 2013 20:10 inc wrote: Show nested quote + On June 11 2013 01:10 ichiro wrote:   On June 10 2013 10:10 Liquid`Drone wrote: the ultimate reason why I am pro immigration has little to do with my personal life in norway. I just idealize this world where the birth lottery doesn't completely define your future happiness. That is, I don't see how I am more entitled to wealth and prosperity through being born by a norwegian woman in norway than someone born into desperate poverty in somalia. happiness is a pretty wide concept. as i see it we always go out from our own perception of happiness, so we see someone in only a hut and a loincloth and think he must be unhappy cause he has, in our opinion, nothing. however this guy could be the happiest man in the world because he finally caught a boar or a fish yesterday after not eating for 2 days. but when you show him a picture of a trawler with 50 tons of fish on board he ofcourse would want to move to a place where catching fish is that easy. i guess what i am trying to say is: ignorance is bliss. so true, studies even says poor tribes in africa and such are much happier then the western modern man. technology has overrun us, we cant cope - so much performance anxiety, simply so many "musts" while they are more where we are biologically evolutionwise in their societys, more basic needs - food, roof over your head etc. very good post!

This type of stuff is really interesting to me. Despite all of our advancement in equality, technology, medicine, sanitation, etc I sincerely doubt humans as a whole are happier now than they were in the past. In our personal lives nobody would want to take a step back and everyone wants as much advancement for himself knowing the option is out there. But whether advancement really helps humanity from a happiness perspective I'm not sure about that at all.

In the very very old days where I live, people used to just chill out and spent their time fishing and did basicly nothing :D

--- Nuked ---

On June 12 2013 06:52 Nazgul wrote: Show nested quote + On June 11 2013 20:10 inc wrote:   On June 11 2013 01:10 ichiro wrote:   On June 10 2013 10:10 Liquid`Drone wrote: the ultimate reason why I am pro immigration has little to do with my personal life in norway. I just idealize this world where the birth lottery doesn't completely define your future happiness. That is, I don't see how I am more entitled to wealth and prosperity through being born by a norwegian woman in norway than someone born into desperate poverty in somalia. happiness is a pretty wide concept. as i see it we always go out from our own perception of happiness, so we see someone in only a hut and a loincloth and think he must be unhappy cause he has, in our opinion, nothing. however this guy could be the happiest man in the world because he finally caught a boar or a fish yesterday after not eating for 2 days. but when you show him a picture of a trawler with 50 tons of fish on board he ofcourse would want to move to a place where catching fish is that easy. i guess what i am trying to say is: ignorance is bliss. so true, studies even says poor tribes in africa and such are much happier then the western modern man. technology has overrun us, we cant cope - so much performance anxiety, simply so many "musts" while they are more where we are biologically evolutionwise in their societys, more basic needs - food, roof over your head etc. very good post! This type of stuff is really interesting to me. Despite all of our advancement in equality, technology, medicine, sanitation, etc I sincerely doubt humans as a whole are happier now than they were in the past. In our personal lives nobody would want to take a step back and everyone wants as much advancement for himself knowing the option is out there. But whether advancement really helps humanity from a happiness perspective I'm not sure about that at all.

this quote comes to mind:
"Ah, how little you know of human happiness - you comfortable and benevolent people! For happiness and unhappiness are brother and sister - or even twins who grow up together - or in your case - remain small together! "
One could argue that it's impossible to know greater states of happiness without also knowing it's equivalent unhapiness; maybe that explains what you guys are talking about

Well, weak peoples were defeated by the conquerors. Think about the Americas with the arrival of the white men. It's not about being happy, it's about survival.

^^ agreed. Its even evident especially in prisons that once our primal instincts kick in
We do play by race when survival is at stake and resources are scarce. The whole idea of everyone just getting along only works if everyone played by the rules in which case sharia practitioners donot seem to abide by. If they only took the "good" parts of the religion and did that there wouldnt be racism attached to that damn thing to begin with

On June 12 2013 06:52 Nazgul wrote: Show nested quote + On June 11 2013 20:10 inc wrote:   On June 11 2013 01:10 ichiro wrote:   On June 10 2013 10:10 Liquid`Drone wrote: the ultimate reason why I am pro immigration has little to do with my personal life in norway. I just idealize this world where the birth lottery doesn't completely define your future happiness. That is, I don't see how I am more entitled to wealth and prosperity through being born by a norwegian woman in norway than someone born into desperate poverty in somalia. happiness is a pretty wide concept. as i see it we always go out from our own perception of happiness, so we see someone in only a hut and a loincloth and think he must be unhappy cause he has, in our opinion, nothing. however this guy could be the happiest man in the world because he finally caught a boar or a fish yesterday after not eating for 2 days. but when you show him a picture of a trawler with 50 tons of fish on board he ofcourse would want to move to a place where catching fish is that easy. i guess what i am trying to say is: ignorance is bliss. so true, studies even says poor tribes in africa and such are much happier then the western modern man. technology has overrun us, we cant cope - so much performance anxiety, simply so many "musts" while they are more where we are biologically evolutionwise in their societys, more basic needs - food, roof over your head etc. very good post! This type of stuff is really interesting to me. Despite all of our advancement in equality, technology, medicine, sanitation, etc I sincerely doubt humans as a whole are happier now than they were in the past. In our personal lives nobody would want to take a step back and everyone wants as much advancement for himself knowing the option is out there. But whether advancement really helps humanity from a happiness perspective I'm not sure about that at all.

Actually i knew per hearsear that latinamerican countries were "happier" than other rich countries so I decided to make search for it in the internet and turns out its totally wrong, the countries who describe themselves as happiest are in the scandinavian region.

On June 11 2013 20:05 inc wrote: another small input here - in the nordic countries its considers "beautiful" to love everything with immigration, see no wrong with it no matter what happens, its always someone/something else fault, not the immigrants or even the immigration POLITICS - and these people are so much smarter and kind - i was one of those thinking i was just that, but realized REALIZE the truth is actually the smarter thing to do. there is problems with massive immigration - multiculture to some extent yes please, but dont experiment with our lifes by hiding facts and shit from us - thats facist if something. immigration has always existed, but not in the same way as now, we have to be careful with our political decisions. in my eyes a slow immigration process is what to strive for, to accomplish a decent multicultural society. /socialist

is it true that in sweden if an immigrant or someone with a non-swedish name is charged with a crime his identity is withheld/hidden in the major media?

does this also apply to ethnic swedes?

seen some things on the internet claiming they specifically censor out crimes committed by immigrants to dissuade racism or something. kind of crosses a free speech line if true though.

I kinda assume sweden resembles norway in this area. very possible that they've taken it one step further though.

but anyway; during the 90s, there was a general media trend that someone's ethnicity would only be mentioned when it was a non-norwegian doing something negative. that is, "the suspect is reported to have been an immigrant from a not-western country" or whatever would be reported, but "norwegian" or "white" would similarly not be mentioned in the event of it being a norwegian culprit. meanwhile, someone's ethnicity would be unlikely to be mentioned at all if something positive had occurred. There's no doubt that this negative media bias DID contribute towards people's perceptions of immigrants, because the only time people would read about immigrants in the paper would be while reading about some crime that had been committed.

during the past decade this trend has somewhat reverted. firstly media has been more conscious about portraying immigrants in a positive light. secondly media tends to close the "commentary" section of newspaper articles involving immigrants. (because they ALWAYS become a cesspool of actual racism - not just "lack of PC" or whatnot.) thirdly "was of foreign origin" has often stopped being an identifier for crime. which imo is logical, because it doesn't actually say anything about what the suspect looked like.

basically, it's another example of society (and media) attempting to adjust to immigration and not really knowing what to do or what the consequences of different actions will be, so they try some stuff out and occasionally go too far (in either direction).

also the whole happiness thing.. I think that's very hard to actually measure beyond just asking people whether they self-identify as happy. which I guess is a fairly good measurement. But either way, I can accept that like, norwegian prosperity and wealth and security doesn't grant happiness by itself. and I can accept that certain aspects of western society (especially stress and pressure to be successful) are likely to be detrimental towards happiness in a way that might just make today's society "less happy" than societies of the past.

However I don't see how that's really relevant to the whole, encouraging/allowing the pursuit of happiness to cross country lines, because I would assume that anyone who flees their country, be it for reasons of security or prosperity, is not happy with their point of departure. the average for their country or the average for people in their particular position in society is irrelevant, as happiness is highly individual and impossible to determine based on outwardly factors.

On June 12 2013 19:18 nolan wrote: Show nested quote + On June 11 2013 20:05 inc wrote: another small input here - in the nordic countries its considers "beautiful" to love everything with immigration, see no wrong with it no matter what happens, its always someone/something else fault, not the immigrants or even the immigration POLITICS - and these people are so much smarter and kind - i was one of those thinking i was just that, but realized REALIZE the truth is actually the smarter thing to do. there is problems with massive immigration - multiculture to some extent yes please, but dont experiment with our lifes by hiding facts and shit from us - thats facist if something. immigration has always existed, but not in the same way as now, we have to be careful with our political decisions. in my eyes a slow immigration process is what to strive for, to accomplish a decent multicultural society. /socialist is it true that in sweden if an immigrant or someone with a non-swedish name is charged with a crime his identity is withheld/hidden in the major media? does this also apply to ethnic swedes? seen some things on the internet claiming they specifically censor out crimes committed by immigrants to dissuade racism or something. kind of crosses a free speech line if true though.

is "very" true yes. it was worse a couple of years ago, people are starting to "wake up" and a few argue about it. its been going on for a long long time, not even mentioning they have a little bit darker skin etc. one of our politicians recently said that paperless (illegal immigrants) usually dont look like ethnic swedes, this caused media to rage5000. one can not say such a thing! but everyone knows its obviously true. politicians took "distance" from that quote. its ridic here mate, completely. if someone says something in a room with random people about immigration, everyone becomes quiet and extremely uncomfortable, FORBIDDEN WORDS! - sweden pls.

On June 12 2013 12:27 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On June 12 2013 06:52 Nazgul wrote:   On June 11 2013 20:10 inc wrote:   On June 11 2013 01:10 ichiro wrote:   On June 10 2013 10:10 Liquid`Drone wrote: the ultimate reason why I am pro immigration has little to do with my personal life in norway. I just idealize this world where the birth lottery doesn't completely define your future happiness. That is, I don't see how I am more entitled to wealth and prosperity through being born by a norwegian woman in norway than someone born into desperate poverty in somalia. happiness is a pretty wide concept. as i see it we always go out from our own perception of happiness, so we see someone in only a hut and a loincloth and think he must be unhappy cause he has, in our opinion, nothing. however this guy could be the happiest man in the world because he finally caught a boar or a fish yesterday after not eating for 2 days. but when you show him a picture of a trawler with 50 tons of fish on board he ofcourse would want to move to a place where catching fish is that easy. i guess what i am trying to say is: ignorance is bliss. so true, studies even says poor tribes in africa and such are much happier then the western modern man. technology has overrun us, we cant cope - so much performance anxiety, simply so many "musts" while they are more where we are biologically evolutionwise in their societys, more basic needs - food, roof over your head etc. very good post! This type of stuff is really interesting to me. Despite all of our advancement in equality, technology, medicine, sanitation, etc I sincerely doubt humans as a whole are happier now than they were in the past. In our personal lives nobody would want to take a step back and everyone wants as much advancement for himself knowing the option is out there. But whether advancement really helps humanity from a happiness perspective I'm not sure about that at all. this quote comes to mind: "Ah, how little you know of human happiness - you comfortable and benevolent people! For happiness and unhappiness are brother and sister - or even twins who grow up together - or in your case - remain small together! " One could argue that it's impossible to know greater states of happiness without also knowing it's equivalent unhapiness; maybe that explains what you guys are talking about

this is true for the western man aswell. but you have a point! no the full answer tho, they see the little things as huge things, while we strive for the new phone, new computer new everything, constantly WAITING for happiness, while they live it.

On June 12 2013 19:18 nolan wrote: Show nested quote + On June 11 2013 20:05 inc wrote: another small input here - in the nordic countries its considers "beautiful" to love everything with immigration, see no wrong with it no matter what happens, its always someone/something else fault, not the immigrants or even the immigration POLITICS - and these people are so much smarter and kind - i was one of those thinking i was just that, but realized REALIZE the truth is actually the smarter thing to do. there is problems with massive immigration - multiculture to some extent yes please, but dont experiment with our lifes by hiding facts and shit from us - thats facist if something. immigration has always existed, but not in the same way as now, we have to be careful with our political decisions. in my eyes a slow immigration process is what to strive for, to accomplish a decent multicultural society. /socialist is it true that in sweden if an immigrant or someone with a non-swedish name is charged with a crime his identity is withheld/hidden in the major media? does this also apply to ethnic swedes? seen some things on the internet claiming they specifically censor out crimes committed by immigrants to dissuade racism or something. kind of crosses a free speech line if true though.

obv its true

On June 12 2013 19:18 nolan wrote: Show nested quote + On June 11 2013 20:05 inc wrote: another small input here - in the nordic countries its considers "beautiful" to love everything with immigration, see no wrong with it no matter what happens, its always someone/something else fault, not the immigrants or even the immigration POLITICS - and these people are so much smarter and kind - i was one of those thinking i was just that, but realized REALIZE the truth is actually the smarter thing to do. there is problems with massive immigration - multiculture to some extent yes please, but dont experiment with our lifes by hiding facts and shit from us - thats facist if something. immigration has always existed, but not in the same way as now, we have to be careful with our political decisions. in my eyes a slow immigration process is what to strive for, to accomplish a decent multicultural society. /socialist is it true that in sweden if an immigrant or someone with a non-swedish name is charged with a crime his identity is withheld/hidden in the major media? does this also apply to ethnic swedes? seen some things on the internet claiming they specifically censor out crimes committed by immigrants to dissuade racism or something. kind of crosses a free speech line if true though.

I cant say for certain but im calling bs on that. Swedish media in general is very conservative when it comes to publishing names of people convicted or or suspected of crime. They will post name and/or ethnicity if it is in any way relevant to the crime in question. There may be some weird self censoring going on by the media but it is in now way something that is going on systematicly. The people who usually complain about these things are those that desperately want to make everything about race/ethnicity. I mean, usually its not relevant if the murderer had black hair or blonde, except for people thinking there must be a direct link between the dark hair and the murder. Most swedes, including those working in the media I think agrees that there is no causality between being of a certain race and commiting crime, thus they wont see it as relevant. Now if you are suspicious of the muslim crime rates in sweden the statistics are all open to the public so its not like its a coverup or something.

This whole "muslim infiltraton" stuff is so depressing to me. Its happening again. 70 something years it took. Now again. In europe! The economy goes in the shit and sooner or later someone decide those weird ppl with that other god are responsible for everything shitty thats happening. I mean come on ffs. Like its the muslims that is the core of the problem. The economy goes to shit, those hit hardest are the lower classes of society. Waddayaknow in some european countrie sa quite significant portion of the underclass are muslims(many first generations coming from shit with no skills so its to be expected) so when the poor start acting out cause they got fucked hard by jp morgan some moron again decides that its somehow their evil blood and their evil god thats just making them super evil for no other reason so we should throw them out. Its not a volotile economic system fucking us over, its not incompetent politicians and world leaders all fucking us over hardcore. No, its gotta be the poorest most discriminated and the least influential group in society, those dirty dark skinned imigrants, all in a huge conspiracy to take over the west and fuck our women. They are at it again!

Im not denying there are problems with islam, as there is with all religions. But if you think some retarded gangsters running around east london trying to impose sharia law on people are the real and true core of europes problems right now then just stop it. Cause you are at it again

On June 12 2013 22:44 inc wrote: Show nested quote + On June 12 2013 12:27 lebowski wrote:   On June 12 2013 06:52 Nazgul wrote:   On June 11 2013 20:10 inc wrote:   On June 11 2013 01:10 ichiro wrote:   On June 10 2013 10:10 Liquid`Drone wrote: the ultimate reason why I am pro immigration has little to do with my personal life in norway. I just idealize this world where the birth lottery doesn't completely define your future happiness. That is, I don't see how I am more entitled to wealth and prosperity through being born by a norwegian woman in norway than someone born into desperate poverty in somalia. happiness is a pretty wide concept. as i see it we always go out from our own perception of happiness, so we see someone in only a hut and a loincloth and think he must be unhappy cause he has, in our opinion, nothing. however this guy could be the happiest man in the world because he finally caught a boar or a fish yesterday after not eating for 2 days. but when you show him a picture of a trawler with 50 tons of fish on board he ofcourse would want to move to a place where catching fish is that easy. i guess what i am trying to say is: ignorance is bliss. so true, studies even says poor tribes in africa and such are much happier then the western modern man. technology has overrun us, we cant cope - so much performance anxiety, simply so many "musts" while they are more where we are biologically evolutionwise in their societys, more basic needs - food, roof over your head etc. very good post! This type of stuff is really interesting to me. Despite all of our advancement in equality, technology, medicine, sanitation, etc I sincerely doubt humans as a whole are happier now than they were in the past. In our personal lives nobody would want to take a step back and everyone wants as much advancement for himself knowing the option is out there. But whether advancement really helps humanity from a happiness perspective I'm not sure about that at all. this quote comes to mind: "Ah, how little you know of human happiness - you comfortable and benevolent people! For happiness and unhappiness are brother and sister - or even twins who grow up together - or in your case - remain small together! " One could argue that it's impossible to know greater states of happiness without also knowing it's equivalent unhapiness; maybe that explains what you guys are talking about this is true for the western man aswell. but you have a point! no the full answer tho, they see the little things as huge things, while we strive for the new phone, new computer new everything, constantly WAITING for happiness, while they live it.

time to convert then. high-five!

On June 12 2013 19:57 Liquid`Drone wrote: also the whole happiness thing.. I think that's very hard to actually measure beyond just asking people whether they self-identify as happy. which I guess is a fairly good measurement. But either way, I can accept that like, norwegian prosperity and wealth and security doesn't grant happiness by itself. and I can accept that certain aspects of western society (especially stress and pressure to be successful) are likely to be detrimental towards happiness in a way that might just make today's society "less happy" than societies of the past. However I don't see how that's really relevant to the whole, encouraging/allowing the pursuit of happiness to cross country lines, because I would assume that anyone who flees their country, be it for reasons of security or prosperity, is not happy with their point of departure. the average for their country or the average for people in their particular position in society is irrelevant, as happiness is highly individual and impossible to determine based on outwardly factors.

How many of the immigrants actually ''fled'' their country? i think most western immigrants from islamic countries were cheap labor that stayed and started families here bringing over wifes and family. i know this at least is the case with the dutch muslims.

The people that actually flee their country are the ones that get deported back nowadays.

The way I see it is that they fled their home countries because of the bad conditions over there and the lack of chances to start a career and a family, that's why we mostly see young men arriving from Arab and Muslim countries

+ Show Spoiler +

The women in their age are probably the 3rd or 4th wives of some muslim clerics or rich businessmen.
In Europe we have no job offers for these men and european women are not too fond of lowskilled immigrants, so basically they can't get any pussy, neither here nor in their home countries, which leads to frustration and agressive behaviour. Also young men who do not have to worry about a job and wife are much more likely to join radical and/or militant political movements or criminal gangs, so in my opinion it has only partly to do with Islam, but more with a surplus of young men that are needed nowhere.

However, the values and beliefs of Islam are a big obstacle to integration and it should be possible to talk about it in Europe without being called a racist.

In Europe we have no job offers for these men and european women are not too fond of lowskilled immigrants, so basically they can't get any pussy, neither here nor in their home countries, which leads to frustration and agressive behaviour. Also young men who do not have to worry about a job and wife are much more likely to join radical and/or militant political movements or criminal gangs, so in my opinion it has only partly to do with Islam, but more with a surplus of young men that are needed nowhere. However, the values and beliefs of Islam are a big obstacle to integration and it should be possible to talk about it in Europe without being called a racist.

This is sort of my point. If the economy is bad and job prospects are low, why is suggesting the idea of stopping / severely reducing immigration always met with overall backlash in Europe.

It seems a bit cruel to offer immigration opportunities to people knowing that their prospects will be poor upon arrival.

immigration for menial labor was meant to get cheap/free labor back when manual labor was the only option. The problem is not as complex if you stop calling people racists. Now that machinery, automation and technology allows business to operate without people, were left with altruistic constructs fucking you in the ass. Stop letting useless people you dont really need. Of course nobody bothered to look into it when the economy was great, basic human nature- doesnt mean they just invented this problem

On June 14 2013 07:55 SakiSaki wrote: Show nested quote + On June 12 2013 19:18 nolan wrote:   On June 11 2013 20:05 inc wrote: another small input here - in the nordic countries its considers "beautiful" to love everything with immigration, see no wrong with it no matter what happens, its always someone/something else fault, not the immigrants or even the immigration POLITICS - and these people are so much smarter and kind - i was one of those thinking i was just that, but realized REALIZE the truth is actually the smarter thing to do. there is problems with massive immigration - multiculture to some extent yes please, but dont experiment with our lifes by hiding facts and shit from us - thats facist if something. immigration has always existed, but not in the same way as now, we have to be careful with our political decisions. in my eyes a slow immigration process is what to strive for, to accomplish a decent multicultural society. /socialist is it true that in sweden if an immigrant or someone with a non-swedish name is charged with a crime his identity is withheld/hidden in the major media? does this also apply to ethnic swedes? seen some things on the internet claiming they specifically censor out crimes committed by immigrants to dissuade racism or something. kind of crosses a free speech line if true though. I cant say for certain but im calling bs on that. Swedish media in general is very conservative when it comes to publishing names of people convicted or or suspected of crime. They will post name and/or ethnicity if it is in any way relevant to the crime in question. There may be some weird self censoring going on by the media but it is in now way something that is going on systematicly. The people who usually complain about these things are those that desperately want to make everything about race/ethnicity. I mean, usually its not relevant if the murderer had black hair or blonde, except for people thinking there must be a direct link between the dark hair and the murder. Most swedes, including those working in the media I think agrees that there is no causality between being of a certain race and commiting crime, thus they wont see it as relevant. Now if you are suspicious of the muslim crime rates in sweden the statistics are all open to the public so its not like its a coverup or something. This whole "muslim infiltraton" stuff is so depressing to me. Its happening again. 70 something years it took. Now again. In europe! The economy goes in the shit and sooner or later someone decide those weird ppl with that other god are responsible for everything shitty thats happening. I mean come on ffs. Like its the muslims that is the core of the problem. The economy goes to shit, those hit hardest are the lower classes of society. Waddayaknow in some european countrie sa quite significant portion of the underclass are muslims(many first generations coming from shit with no skills so its to be expected) so when the poor start acting out cause they got fucked hard by jp morgan some moron again decides that its somehow their evil blood and their evil god thats just making them super evil for no other reason so we should throw them out. Its not a volotile economic system fucking us over, its not incompetent politicians and world leaders all fucking us over hardcore. No, its gotta be the poorest most discriminated and the least influential group in society, those dirty dark skinned imigrants, all in a huge conspiracy to take over the west and fuck our women. They are at it again! Im not denying there are problems with islam, as there is with all religions. But if you think some retarded gangsters running around east london trying to impose sharia law on people are the real and true core of europes problems right now then just stop it. Cause you are at it again

didnt read your entire post but noticed you called bs on the "hiding most criminals are immigrants %-wise". this has been common for years, obviously the mainstream media wont say they have done it, be it newspapers or TV. theres plently of proof of this but it is obviously being denied by the constantly "political correct" people. alot of these cases has been talked about, where immigrants are being hidden(blurred)/not saying they are immigrants etc but we have no proof since in sweden we dont have statistics over any of the "problems" that immigration might cause. its no the immigrant in general that is the problem, is our inability to actually see that there are problems with massive immigration from complete other cultures. for example Sweden Democrats (which i dont vote for btw) has to use statistics from norway for like how many % of the rapes, murders, how much money it costs etc etc. cos in Sweden we dont want to see the problem, cos THERE IS NO PROBLEM. there cant be! we are sweden, we are tolerant, we accept everything! massive immigration is the problem, not some stupid "islam will take over the world" shit. its a political matter like any other, how much immigration can a country handle? Sweden with 9-10mil pop has the highest immigration in the world %-wise, we have more immigration NUMBERwise then US from the middle east. cant people atleast acknowledge that it MIGHT cause some minor problems as a start. its politics, not racism.

Eriador's comments make complete sense. Stop hating, start loving

On June 16 2013 03:55 inc wrote: Show nested quote + On June 14 2013 07:55 SakiSaki wrote:   On June 12 2013 19:18 nolan wrote:   On June 11 2013 20:05 inc wrote: another small input here - in the nordic countries its considers "beautiful" to love everything with immigration, see no wrong with it no matter what happens, its always someone/something else fault, not the immigrants or even the immigration POLITICS - and these people are so much smarter and kind - i was one of those thinking i was just that, but realized REALIZE the truth is actually the smarter thing to do. there is problems with massive immigration - multiculture to some extent yes please, but dont experiment with our lifes by hiding facts and shit from us - thats facist if something. immigration has always existed, but not in the same way as now, we have to be careful with our political decisions. in my eyes a slow immigration process is what to strive for, to accomplish a decent multicultural society. /socialist is it true that in sweden if an immigrant or someone with a non-swedish name is charged with a crime his identity is withheld/hidden in the major media? does this also apply to ethnic swedes? seen some things on the internet claiming they specifically censor out crimes committed by immigrants to dissuade racism or something. kind of crosses a free speech line if true though. I cant say for certain but im calling bs on that. Swedish media in general is very conservative when it comes to publishing names of people convicted or or suspected of crime. They will post name and/or ethnicity if it is in any way relevant to the crime in question. There may be some weird self censoring going on by the media but it is in now way something that is going on systematicly. The people who usually complain about these things are those that desperately want to make everything about race/ethnicity. I mean, usually its not relevant if the murderer had black hair or blonde, except for people thinking there must be a direct link between the dark hair and the murder. Most swedes, including those working in the media I think agrees that there is no causality between being of a certain race and commiting crime, thus they wont see it as relevant. Now if you are suspicious of the muslim crime rates in sweden the statistics are all open to the public so its not like its a coverup or something. This whole "muslim infiltraton" stuff is so depressing to me. Its happening again. 70 something years it took. Now again. In europe! The economy goes in the shit and sooner or later someone decide those weird ppl with that other god are responsible for everything shitty thats happening. I mean come on ffs. Like its the muslims that is the core of the problem. The economy goes to shit, those hit hardest are the lower classes of society. Waddayaknow in some european countrie sa quite significant portion of the underclass are muslims(many first generations coming from shit with no skills so its to be expected) so when the poor start acting out cause they got fucked hard by jp morgan some moron again decides that its somehow their evil blood and their evil god thats just making them super evil for no other reason so we should throw them out. Its not a volotile economic system fucking us over, its not incompetent politicians and world leaders all fucking us over hardcore. No, its gotta be the poorest most discriminated and the least influential group in society, those dirty dark skinned imigrants, all in a huge conspiracy to take over the west and fuck our women. They are at it again! Im not denying there are problems with islam, as there is with all religions. But if you think some retarded gangsters running around east london trying to impose sharia law on people are the real and true core of europes problems right now then just stop it. Cause you are at it again didnt read your entire post but noticed you called bs on the "hiding most criminals are immigrants %-wise". this has been common for years, obviously the mainstream media wont say they have done it, be it newspapers or TV. theres plently of proof of this but it is obviously being denied by the constantly "political correct" people. alot of these cases has been talked about, where immigrants are being hidden(blurred)/not saying they are immigrants etc but we have no proof since in sweden we dont have statistics over any of the "problems" that immigration might cause. its no the immigrant in general that is the problem, is our inability to actually see that there are problems with massive immigration from complete other cultures. for example Sweden Democrats (which i dont vote for btw) has to use statistics from norway for like how many % of the rapes, murders, how much money it costs etc etc. cos in Sweden we dont want to see the problem, cos THERE IS NO PROBLEM. there cant be! we are sweden, we are tolerant, we accept everything! massive immigration is the problem, not some stupid "islam will take over the world" shit. its a political matter like any other, how much immigration can a country handle? Sweden with 9-10mil pop has the highest immigration in the world %-wise, we have more immigration NUMBERwise then US from the middle east. cant people atleast acknowledge that it MIGHT cause some minor problems as a start. its politics, not racism.

why do you even bother writing a wall of text without first reading the other dude's entire post? Do you really think the media should specifically refer to the ethnicity of the person who breaks the law to force the politicians to take action against immigration? (not denying that over-immigration can be a big problem, check Greece's stats they are similar to Sweden's)

Let me tell you what happens when the mass media are shitty like that:
10% nazi party in the recent polls and 18 Parliament members that make other European national socialists seem like pussies.
For years in Greece the retarded news editors thought it's great to refer to eg the Albanian ethnicity of a kidnapper even if the kidnapping happened outside of the Greek borders ( I shit you not, they would not mention any Italians or Russians but they would mention Albanians just because there were many Albanians here)
They would not refer to the ethnicity of Greek law breakers and they would even bury racist motives behind killings, stabbings etc, but they would consistently cultivate fear over how our great nation is under attack by ruthless immigrants.
So now, there you have it after the crisis rolled in, boom! 500k+ voters for a party that praises Hitler semi-openly in a country that suffered a lot in WW2 and certainly can't put the blame on immigrants for the huge economic mess that it is in.
Before you guys start tearing your clothes apart over the unjust media that try to be overly politically correct by covering up what a big problem immigration has become, take a moment to actually think of what could happen if they did what like the media did here for decades.

Do you really think the correct political action is to spread xenophobia just so that the politicians start reading the polls to deal with immigration issues?
What good is solving every immigration problem there is if the people turn into pieces of shit in the process?

On June 14 2013 19:13 whamm! wrote: immigration for menial labor was meant to get cheap/free labor back when manual labor was the only option. The problem is not as complex if you stop calling people racists. Now that machinery, automation and technology allows business to operate without people, were left with altruistic constructs fucking you in the ass. Stop letting useless people you dont really need. Of course nobody bothered to look into it when the economy was great, basic human nature- doesnt mean they just invented this problem

oh I get it
we don't need them for cheap labor now, so let's all turn anti-Islam, it can only be beneficial, right?
How long do you think you would survive in a society that only protects those who are useful?

TLDR

all i have to spazz into this thread is

On June 09 2013 08:39 whamm! wrote: http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfi...netherlands-favors-ban-on-sharia-law/

andal ampatuan will get you.

i will email him this thread.

if someone started a new religion, called it 'sons of hitler', promoted killing of non-believers, esp jews, beating women and children, and honor killings, ppl like hackysaki would just flip out and called them morons whenever they dont take part in jew-beatings and call themselves secular or not.

surprisingly these ignorants dont think the same about islam

On June 16 2013 12:04 dogmeat wrote: if someone started a new religion, called it 'sons of hitler', promoted killing of non-believers, esp jews, beating women and children, and honor killings,

The exact same can be said about christians, yet i dont see you rallying against christians being able to express their faith.

On June 16 2013 12:04 dogmeat wrote: if someone started a new religion, called it 'sons of hitler', promoted killing of non-believers, esp jews, beating women and children, and honor killings, ppl like hackysaki would just flip out and called them morons whenever they dont take part in jew-beatings and call themselves secular or not. surprisingly these ignorants dont think the same about islam

Islam... Fuck me. I mean, say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

On June 16 2013 12:15 SakiSaki wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2013 12:04 dogmeat wrote: if someone started a new religion, called it 'sons of hitler', promoted killing of non-believers, esp jews, beating women and children, and honor killings, The exact same can be said about christians, yet i dont see you rallying against christians being able to express their faith.

On June 16 2013 16:49 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2013 12:15 SakiSaki wrote:   On June 16 2013 12:04 dogmeat wrote: if someone started a new religion, called it 'sons of hitler', promoted killing of non-believers, esp jews, beating women and children, and honor killings, The exact same can be said about christians, yet i dont see you rallying against christians being able to express their faith.

I think they are equally uncool and bad. Doesnt mean they shouldnt be able to practice their faith as long as they dont break any laws doing it. Thats the point of religious freedom.

The crusades. Never again.

"Yes, yes, good goyim, let the hate escalate"

seems like the main reason of hate towards various groups. especially religious groups is the humanitarian atrocities committed in the past. we should extend this to all entities or bodies of government that has done similar things like the crusades or worse (holocaust, genocide of the native americans, etc etc) and not just religious groups...seems pretty narrow minded to me.

and lol at judging a religion by what the small crazy vocal minority does...it's like judging all asians that they are all nerdy and good at math just cuz the one you know across the street is. or all black people are good at basketball cuz you see it on tv.

goddamn bigots all of u

every black are good at basketball.
noob.

On June 18 2013 12:04 brambolius wrote: "Yes, yes, good goyim, let the hate escalate"

is it a moneygrubbing jew?

For sure ginobili is muslim

On June 18 2013 22:31 Stroggoz wrote: Show nested quote + On June 18 2013 12:04 brambolius wrote: "Yes, yes, good goyim, let the hate escalate" is it a moneygrubbing jew?

I think the technical term is "Merchant" lol

On June 16 2013 07:08 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2013 03:55 inc wrote:   On June 14 2013 07:55 SakiSaki wrote:   On June 12 2013 19:18 nolan wrote:   On June 11 2013 20:05 inc wrote: another small input here - in the nordic countries its considers "beautiful" to love everything with immigration, see no wrong with it no matter what happens, its always someone/something else fault, not the immigrants or even the immigration POLITICS - and these people are so much smarter and kind - i was one of those thinking i was just that, but realized REALIZE the truth is actually the smarter thing to do. there is problems with massive immigration - multiculture to some extent yes please, but dont experiment with our lifes by hiding facts and shit from us - thats facist if something. immigration has always existed, but not in the same way as now, we have to be careful with our political decisions. in my eyes a slow immigration process is what to strive for, to accomplish a decent multicultural society. /socialist is it true that in sweden if an immigrant or someone with a non-swedish name is charged with a crime his identity is withheld/hidden in the major media? does this also apply to ethnic swedes? seen some things on the internet claiming they specifically censor out crimes committed by immigrants to dissuade racism or something. kind of crosses a free speech line if true though. I cant say for certain but im calling bs on that. Swedish media in general is very conservative when it comes to publishing names of people convicted or or suspected of crime. They will post name and/or ethnicity if it is in any way relevant to the crime in question. There may be some weird self censoring going on by the media but it is in now way something that is going on systematicly. The people who usually complain about these things are those that desperately want to make everything about race/ethnicity. I mean, usually its not relevant if the murderer had black hair or blonde, except for people thinking there must be a direct link between the dark hair and the murder. Most swedes, including those working in the media I think agrees that there is no causality between being of a certain race and commiting crime, thus they wont see it as relevant. Now if you are suspicious of the muslim crime rates in sweden the statistics are all open to the public so its not like its a coverup or something. This whole "muslim infiltraton" stuff is so depressing to me. Its happening again. 70 something years it took. Now again. In europe! The economy goes in the shit and sooner or later someone decide those weird ppl with that other god are responsible for everything shitty thats happening. I mean come on ffs. Like its the muslims that is the core of the problem. The economy goes to shit, those hit hardest are the lower classes of society. Waddayaknow in some european countrie sa quite significant portion of the underclass are muslims(many first generations coming from shit with no skills so its to be expected) so when the poor start acting out cause they got fucked hard by jp morgan some moron again decides that its somehow their evil blood and their evil god thats just making them super evil for no other reason so we should throw them out. Its not a volotile economic system fucking us over, its not incompetent politicians and world leaders all fucking us over hardcore. No, its gotta be the poorest most discriminated and the least influential group in society, those dirty dark skinned imigrants, all in a huge conspiracy to take over the west and fuck our women. They are at it again! Im not denying there are problems with islam, as there is with all religions. But if you think some retarded gangsters running around east london trying to impose sharia law on people are the real and true core of europes problems right now then just stop it. Cause you are at it again didnt read your entire post but noticed you called bs on the "hiding most criminals are immigrants %-wise". this has been common for years, obviously the mainstream media wont say they have done it, be it newspapers or TV. theres plently of proof of this but it is obviously being denied by the constantly "political correct" people. alot of these cases has been talked about, where immigrants are being hidden(blurred)/not saying they are immigrants etc but we have no proof since in sweden we dont have statistics over any of the "problems" that immigration might cause. its no the immigrant in general that is the problem, is our inability to actually see that there are problems with massive immigration from complete other cultures. for example Sweden Democrats (which i dont vote for btw) has to use statistics from norway for like how many % of the rapes, murders, how much money it costs etc etc. cos in Sweden we dont want to see the problem, cos THERE IS NO PROBLEM. there cant be! we are sweden, we are tolerant, we accept everything! massive immigration is the problem, not some stupid "islam will take over the world" shit. its a political matter like any other, how much immigration can a country handle? Sweden with 9-10mil pop has the highest immigration in the world %-wise, we have more immigration NUMBERwise then US from the middle east. cant people atleast acknowledge that it MIGHT cause some minor problems as a start. its politics, not racism. why do you even bother writing a wall of text without first reading the other dude's entire post? Do you really think the media should specifically refer to the ethnicity of the person who breaks the law to force the politicians to take action against immigration? (not denying that over-immigration can be a big problem, check Greece's stats they are similar to Sweden's) Let me tell you what happens when the mass media are shitty like that: 10% nazi party in the recent polls and 18 Parliament members that make other European national socialists seem like pussies. For years in Greece the retarded news editors thought it's great to refer to eg the Albanian ethnicity of a kidnapper even if the kidnapping happened outside of the Greek borders ( I shit you not, they would not mention any Italians or Russians but they would mention Albanians just because there were many Albanians here) They would not refer to the ethnicity of Greek law breakers and they would even bury racist motives behind killings, stabbings etc, but they would consistently cultivate fear over how our great nation is under attack by ruthless immigrants. So now, there you have it after the crisis rolled in, boom! 500k+ voters for a party that praises Hitler semi-openly in a country that suffered a lot in WW2 and certainly can't put the blame on immigrants for the huge economic mess that it is in. Before you guys start tearing your clothes apart over the unjust media that try to be overly politically correct by covering up what a big problem immigration has become, take a moment to actually think of what could happen if they did what like the media did here for decades. Do you really think the correct political action is to spread xenophobia just so that the politicians start reading the polls to deal with immigration issues? What good is solving every immigration problem there is if the people turn into pieces of shit in the process?

you misunderstand. they show pictures of "swedes but not of immigrants, hide statistics of the % of rape from immigrants and any kind of negative statistics. im not saying its important saying someone is albanian, but discrimination goes both ways. we have the highest rape statistics in europe, and a huge majority of it is from immigrants. facts like this is good, so we can do something about it politically. we need a slower immigration so the problems dont just continue getting worse, and the segregation gets worse every year. we lose billions of SEK every year from immigration. it IS a problem. We have to find ways to integrate them faster and better, and not getting a huge amount of people from a complete different culture, always putting all the immigrants in the same places. ghettos all over Sweden, esp the bigger citys. to talk about this is taboo, that is the problem. we need to investigate this aspect of our society as we do with everything else like school politics, jobs etc etc. you cant compare greece to sweden, you have no idea how political correct we have to be here. talk about immigration in a normal way and ur a racist.

but i deal with it cos dolan fix all.

On June 17 2013 06:24 SakiSaki wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2013 16:49 dogmeat wrote:   On June 16 2013 12:15 SakiSaki wrote:   On June 16 2013 12:04 dogmeat wrote: if someone started a new religion, called it 'sons of hitler', promoted killing of non-believers, esp jews, beating women and children, and honor killings, The exact same can be said about christians, yet i dont see you rallying against christians being able to express their faith. I think they are equally uncool and bad. Doesnt mean they shouldnt be able to practice their faith as long as they dont break any laws doing it. Thats the point of religious freedom.

a picture says more then a THOUUUUUUUUUUUUUSAND BILLION words tolerate islam, hate on christianty which isnt slightly as big of a problem as islamism is. its saddening really, that people reason this way and refuse to see problems. im not one of those "ISLAM WILL TAKE OVER THE WORLD" but you cant compare the radicalism concerning islam and christians.

On June 19 2013 10:51 inc wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2013 07:08 lebowski wrote:   On June 16 2013 03:55 inc wrote:   On June 14 2013 07:55 SakiSaki wrote:   On June 12 2013 19:18 nolan wrote:   On June 11 2013 20:05 inc wrote: another small input here - in the nordic countries its considers "beautiful" to love everything with immigration, see no wrong with it no matter what happens, its always someone/something else fault, not the immigrants or even the immigration POLITICS - and these people are so much smarter and kind - i was one of those thinking i was just that, but realized REALIZE the truth is actually the smarter thing to do. there is problems with massive immigration - multiculture to some extent yes please, but dont experiment with our lifes by hiding facts and shit from us - thats facist if something. immigration has always existed, but not in the same way as now, we have to be careful with our political decisions. in my eyes a slow immigration process is what to strive for, to accomplish a decent multicultural society. /socialist is it true that in sweden if an immigrant or someone with a non-swedish name is charged with a crime his identity is withheld/hidden in the major media? does this also apply to ethnic swedes? seen some things on the internet claiming they specifically censor out crimes committed by immigrants to dissuade racism or something. kind of crosses a free speech line if true though. I cant say for certain but im calling bs on that. Swedish media in general is very conservative when it comes to publishing names of people convicted or or suspected of crime. They will post name and/or ethnicity if it is in any way relevant to the crime in question. There may be some weird self censoring going on by the media but it is in now way something that is going on systematicly. The people who usually complain about these things are those that desperately want to make everything about race/ethnicity. I mean, usually its not relevant if the murderer had black hair or blonde, except for people thinking there must be a direct link between the dark hair and the murder. Most swedes, including those working in the media I think agrees that there is no causality between being of a certain race and commiting crime, thus they wont see it as relevant. Now if you are suspicious of the muslim crime rates in sweden the statistics are all open to the public so its not like its a coverup or something. This whole "muslim infiltraton" stuff is so depressing to me. Its happening again. 70 something years it took. Now again. In europe! The economy goes in the shit and sooner or later someone decide those weird ppl with that other god are responsible for everything shitty thats happening. I mean come on ffs. Like its the muslims that is the core of the problem. The economy goes to shit, those hit hardest are the lower classes of society. Waddayaknow in some european countrie sa quite significant portion of the underclass are muslims(many first generations coming from shit with no skills so its to be expected) so when the poor start acting out cause they got fucked hard by jp morgan some moron again decides that its somehow their evil blood and their evil god thats just making them super evil for no other reason so we should throw them out. Its not a volotile economic system fucking us over, its not incompetent politicians and world leaders all fucking us over hardcore. No, its gotta be the poorest most discriminated and the least influential group in society, those dirty dark skinned imigrants, all in a huge conspiracy to take over the west and fuck our women. They are at it again! Im not denying there are problems with islam, as there is with all religions. But if you think some retarded gangsters running around east london trying to impose sharia law on people are the real and true core of europes problems right now then just stop it. Cause you are at it again didnt read your entire post but noticed you called bs on the "hiding most criminals are immigrants %-wise". this has been common for years, obviously the mainstream media wont say they have done it, be it newspapers or TV. theres plently of proof of this but it is obviously being denied by the constantly "political correct" people. alot of these cases has been talked about, where immigrants are being hidden(blurred)/not saying they are immigrants etc but we have no proof since in sweden we dont have statistics over any of the "problems" that immigration might cause. its no the immigrant in general that is the problem, is our inability to actually see that there are problems with massive immigration from complete other cultures. for example Sweden Democrats (which i dont vote for btw) has to use statistics from norway for like how many % of the rapes, murders, how much money it costs etc etc. cos in Sweden we dont want to see the problem, cos THERE IS NO PROBLEM. there cant be! we are sweden, we are tolerant, we accept everything! massive immigration is the problem, not some stupid "islam will take over the world" shit. its a political matter like any other, how much immigration can a country handle? Sweden with 9-10mil pop has the highest immigration in the world %-wise, we have more immigration NUMBERwise then US from the middle east. cant people atleast acknowledge that it MIGHT cause some minor problems as a start. its politics, not racism. why do you even bother writing a wall of text without first reading the other dude's entire post? Do you really think the media should specifically refer to the ethnicity of the person who breaks the law to force the politicians to take action against immigration? (not denying that over-immigration can be a big problem, check Greece's stats they are similar to Sweden's) Let me tell you what happens when the mass media are shitty like that: 10% nazi party in the recent polls and 18 Parliament members that make other European national socialists seem like pussies. For years in Greece the retarded news editors thought it's great to refer to eg the Albanian ethnicity of a kidnapper even if the kidnapping happened outside of the Greek borders ( I shit you not, they would not mention any Italians or Russians but they would mention Albanians just because there were many Albanians here) They would not refer to the ethnicity of Greek law breakers and they would even bury racist motives behind killings, stabbings etc, but they would consistently cultivate fear over how our great nation is under attack by ruthless immigrants. So now, there you have it after the crisis rolled in, boom! 500k+ voters for a party that praises Hitler semi-openly in a country that suffered a lot in WW2 and certainly can't put the blame on immigrants for the huge economic mess that it is in. Before you guys start tearing your clothes apart over the unjust media that try to be overly politically correct by covering up what a big problem immigration has become, take a moment to actually think of what could happen if they did what like the media did here for decades. Do you really think the correct political action is to spread xenophobia just so that the politicians start reading the polls to deal with immigration issues? What good is solving every immigration problem there is if the people turn into pieces of shit in the process? you misunderstand. they show pictures of "swedes but not of immigrants, hide statistics of the % of rape from immigrants and any kind of negative statistics. im not saying its important saying someone is albanian, but discrimination goes both ways. we have the highest rape statistics in europe, and a huge majority of it is from immigrants. facts like this is good, so we can do something about it politically. we need a slower immigration so the problems dont just continue getting worse, and the segregation gets worse every year. we lose billions of SEK every year from immigration. it IS a problem. We have to find ways to integrate them faster and better, and not getting a huge amount of people from a complete different culture, always putting all the immigrants in the same places. ghettos all over Sweden, esp the bigger citys. to talk about this is taboo, that is the problem. we need to investigate this aspect of our society as we do with everything else like school politics, jobs etc etc. you cant compare greece to sweden, you have no idea how political correct we have to be here. talk about immigration in a normal way and ur a racist. but i deal with it cos dolan fix all.

Got any sources for these claims that they show swedes commiting crimes and not imigrants, or that "a vast majority" of rapes are commited by immigrants? I would guess not because they would be lies. Also would like a source on the claim that immigration costs billions a year, i know you wont find it though because its a retarded notion. Im so sick and tired of swedish democrats like yourself always portraying themselves as victims of cover ups and political correctness. You know they are like the third largest party in sweden right. They have the main stage to debate with the rest of the major swedish parties. Maybe its time to realise that most swedes dont agree with you not because of "political correctness" but rather cause we dont agree with your simplistic and racist views of the problems in sweden. You are acting like a little baby, crying and whining that not enough people agree with you because of some huge media conspiracy when in reality its just your stupid racist thoughts that people dont agree with.

But yeah, you cant say anything racist in sweden because then immediately you are labeled a racist.

On June 19 2013 13:02 inc wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2013 06:24 SakiSaki wrote:   On June 16 2013 16:49 dogmeat wrote:   On June 16 2013 12:15 SakiSaki wrote:   On June 16 2013 12:04 dogmeat wrote: if someone started a new religion, called it 'sons of hitler', promoted killing of non-believers, esp jews, beating women and children, and honor killings, The exact same can be said about christians, yet i dont see you rallying against christians being able to express their faith. I think they are equally uncool and bad. Doesnt mean they shouldnt be able to practice their faith as long as they dont break any laws doing it. Thats the point of religious freedom. a picture says more then a THOUUUUUUUUUUUUUSAND BILLION words tolerate islam, hate on christianty which isnt slightly as big of a problem as islamism is. its saddening really, that people reason this way and refuse to see problems. im not one of those "ISLAM WILL TAKE OVER THE WORLD" but you cant compare the radicalism concerning islam and christians.

Are you being ironic in your first statement or are you really talking about the picture where the words on it are the only thing really saying something? I hate and tolerate both religions equally as i have said numerous times and you are trying to make ME the hypocrite. Yes islam right now is a bigger problem, but we are talking about a hugely heterogeneous group here. A moderate muslim has way more incommon with a moderate christian than with a radical islamist and vice versa. Surely a more reasonable aproach would be to combat all religious extremism rather than attacking everyone in the group that currently has the most extremists.

On June 19 2013 15:33 SakiSaki wrote: Show nested quote + On June 19 2013 13:02 inc wrote:   On June 17 2013 06:24 SakiSaki wrote:   On June 16 2013 16:49 dogmeat wrote:   On June 16 2013 12:15 SakiSaki wrote:   On June 16 2013 12:04 dogmeat wrote: if someone started a new religion, called it 'sons of hitler', promoted killing of non-believers, esp jews, beating women and children, and honor killings, The exact same can be said about christians, yet i dont see you rallying against christians being able to express their faith. I think they are equally uncool and bad. Doesnt mean they shouldnt be able to practice their faith as long as they dont break any laws doing it. Thats the point of religious freedom. a picture says more then a THOUUUUUUUUUUUUUSAND BILLION words tolerate islam, hate on christianty which isnt slightly as big of a problem as islamism is. its saddening really, that people reason this way and refuse to see problems. im not one of those "ISLAM WILL TAKE OVER THE WORLD" but you cant compare the radicalism concerning islam and christians. Are you being ironic in your first statement or are you really talking about the picture where the words on it are the only thing really saying something? I hate and tolerate both religions equally as i have said numerous times and you are trying to make ME the hypocrite. Yes islam right now is a bigger problem, but we are talking about a hugely heterogeneous group here. A moderate muslim has way more incommon with a moderate christian than with a radical islamist and vice versa. Surely a more reasonable aproach would be to combat all religious extremism rather than attacking everyone in the group that currently has the most extremists.

You're on of those people that makes me sad about this country. You live in an utopian world mentally, were you can see no problem with immigration. the experiment sweden has had, with the most immigration in modern history, has to atleast cause SOMETHING? Problems or not, something obviously happens. and the racist card again.. while i said nothing racist, typically swedish to pull out that card as soon as someone speaks about immigration. i also stated earlier that i have never, and never will vote for this party. But i think its good that they bring this matter to the table so to speak, their politics is mostly complete shit, immigration politics perhaps too extreme (90% cut of immigrants) i dont know. im just happy people are starting to realize this can be a problem, when we have such a HUGE minorty in our small country, something are bound to happen.

as im in a hurry (midsummer party in sweden) i only had time for some searching, but found atleast some statistics (and no its no "conspiracy" the government simple havent taken this statistics before, so other sources had to do it.)

http://www.migrationsinfo.se/arbetsma...elsattning/internationell-jamforelse/ (browse this site for more info about immigration, both positive and negative info i guess, i question some of it tho.)

http://www.newsmill.se/artikel/2013/03/11/sverige-klarar-inte-s-stor-invandring (a very serious and well known Professor of National Economics found out that immigration costs 110 miljarder SEK (miljarder = billions in english)

he later wrote this book together with some other Professor in etnology and some other person i dont know.
http://www.adlibris.com/se/product.aspx?isbn=9198004220 (the book's title is something like Immigration and the cover-up of it)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Sweden (some statistics)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime (same)

"in 2009 there were 15,700 reported sexual offenses in Sweden, a rise of 8% compared to 2008, of which 5,940 were rape and sexual harassment (including exhibitionism) accounted for 7,590 reports. In April 2009, it was reported that sex crimes had increased by 58% over the previous ten years. According to a 2009 European Union study, Sweden has one of the highest rates of reported rape in Europe."


"People of non-Swedish origin are overrepresented in Sweden's crime statistics. During the period 1997–2001, 25% of the almost 1,520,000 offences were committed by people born overseas, while almost 20% were committed by people with a foreign background who were born in Sweden. Those from North Africa and the Middle East were overrepresented."

"Immigrants are overrepresented in Sweden's crime statistics. In a study by the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention in 1997-2001, 25% of the almost 1,520,000 offences were found to be committed by people born abroad, while almost 20% were committed by Swedish-born people with a foreign background. In the study, immigrants were found to be four times more likely to be investigated for lethal violence and robbery than ethnic Swedes. In addition, immigrants were three times more likely to be investigated for violent assault, and five times more likely to be investigated for sex crimes. Those from North Africa and Western Asia were overrepresented.
The report is based on statistics for those "suspected" of offences, but Stina Holmberg of the Council for Crime Prevention said that there was "little difference" in the statistics for those suspected of crimes and those actually convicted.
"Slightly under 60 percent of the almost 1,520,000 offences ... registered during the period covered by the study can be attributed to persons who were born in Sweden to two Swedish-born parents," it said"


another link to a swedish newspaper article: http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/gront-ljus-till-ullenhag-om-invandringsmyt_6739593.svd

cba and dont have time to search for more shit, we all know this in sweden but dont talk bout it, it also depends where you live and what kind of life you have to experience the negative sides of the immigration. i, who has been bit under middle class all my life has experiences i dont want to talk about, but not nice. but i dont judge all immigrants for that. as ive said, the immigrant isnt the problems - its the massive immigration that the country cant handle, that the government refuses to do something about - that is the problem. with a slow immigration it would work i think, im FOR a multicultural society, but it has to be done right. in the last political party leader debate everyone agreed that the immigration in sweden has failed. it shows over and over again, just look at the recent huge riots all over sweden, only in places where almost only immigrants live.

stop living in a dream world SakiSaki, i was once like you, believed everything was great with this and saw myself as an "EVIL" person as soon as i even thought something might be wrong with this - but i as a socialist (always voted for vänsterpartier) has realized there is a problem. i dont dislike immigrants, its not about that - i dislike the politicians who's made this experiment with our nation. i dont blame any other immigrant then those who brake the laws, and the politicians responsible for this failed immigration process. a segregated country cant be good.

if we take in a lower volume of immigrants per year - we can get them jobs faster, the integration will be much easier.


GLHF MIDSUMMER HERE WE GO

rgds,
cin

the great British heritage must be saved. All we need is the old shit conserved, nationalists ftw
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Freedom_Party
this is the right wing party Paul Weston leaded for a while.
Obv Paul Weston doesn't give a shit about race etc he's just an opportunist trying to find a market, because apparently Islamophobia is becoming a thing in europe.

We have a ton of people like this guy in Greece's nazi party saying exactly the same stuff "they accuse us of admiring Hitler, so be it if it's going to save this great country" etc while denying they wrote several articles praising Hitler in their own magazine a few years back. Now they want to tone down the Hitler stuff and focus on the preservation of the great country Greece once was because they had a taste of a bigger audience. Every fucking country seems to have been great at some fucking point and preserving those few fleeting moments seems to be more important than truth, humanism and world peace combined.

Let's all join whamm on his crusade to help the far right wing preserve every country that once was great from the mofos who are commanded by their lord to gangrape our mothers and sisters. Amen

RUN GOOD ONE TIME

Any religion is bad imo.
Just look at the gods and religions and the reason why it was created at first: to explain stuff that could not be rationally explained back in the time. The first religions all had dozens of gods, why? One god for each thing you could not understand: God of fire, god of water, god of everything...

So, technically, religion were invented because of the "ignorance" of people. It's easier to say that God did this, or wants this when there is something you can't explain/understand no? :D

Also if we look at history: most of the biggest wars and killings were done by people claiming to defend/do it for "religious" reasons/gods. And this goes way way back in time.

I have nothing against people who believe in God (and respect their choice) but just one thing: religion brought more wars and dead bodies than any dictators. As for the "good" that religions brought, I'm yet to be proved they brought more than any other "non religious" things.
And for the Christians: the Vatican must be the wealthiest and most powerful state in the world (for their size). If they were that fond of mankind and preaching to help each other, how come there are so many people in the world that are still struggling even eating? Vatican is worth $8 billion... How much of these are used for charity?

Do you guys know how much money they spend to run the "catholic churches" in the US? They spend $170 BILLIONS a YEAR to run their "business" ( $3 BILLIONs "lifetime", i.e for the past 20 years, for settlements of sexual abuse cases by priests and shit): http://www.economist.com/node/21560536

The Economist estimates that annual spending by the church and entities owned by the church was around $170 billion in 2010 (the church does not release such figures). We think 57% of this goes on health-care networks, followed by 28% on colleges, with parish and diocesan day-to-day operations accounting for just 6% and national charitable activities just 2.7% (see chart). In total, Catholic institutions employ over 1m people, reckons Fred Gluck, a former McKinsey managing partner and co-founder of the National Leadership Roundtable on Church Management, a lay organisation seeking to improve the way the church is run. For purposes of secular comparison, in 2010 General Electric’s revenue was $150 billion and Walmart employed roughly 2m people.

That said, I'm not saying catholics are worse than any religion, I was quoting them only because I'm more familiar with it, but any religion is BAD imo.