Everyday 200k play on PokerStars. After the day's end, PokerStars has netted a nice $1.34 million. They give themselves a nice pat on the back while the players have been exploited. Running a Poker site is not a high-cost expense.
Rake distorts the games. Without rake, a losing player might be breakeven, a breakeven player a solid winner and a winner is a MASSIVE winner. People move up faster leading to more fish at higher stakes benefiting the whole Poker economy.
Even with the huge sums taken out of the games by the sites, they still offer shoddy service in return. PokerStars gives you a couple of TV tournaments and a piecemeal updates to their software. Cake Poker gives you atrociously bad security; any programmer can tell you how easy it is to secure your software using programming that is free on the net.
We're proposing a community run Poker room. The software will be completely free/open so anyone can inspect it to make improvements. Because eyes of the whole Poker community will be fixed on it, flaws & security problems very quickly disappear. And if you wish to make your own Poker room then you can! As the server code is also free & open.
We've been working on this rake-free Poker room. For those interested there is an online meeting between Poker players at 22:00 GMT (5PM EST) on Thursday Dec 16th in #pokerface on Freenode. For anyone not familiar with IRC you can join the chatroom here: http://pastecoin.com/cgi-bin/irc.cgi
If you're interested in this project but won't be able to make the meeting, don't worry about it. The meeting will be logged and posted on the wiki. Even if you're not a developer we need regular poker players to tell us what they want so please attend and voice your thoughts.
See you there!
hope you don't mind me posting this here. get mad at me if you want. i am just excited about this project.
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
Everything I've heard about genjix is not so good, however he seems sincere and mature in the first few posts I've read on 2+2.. Didn't he get banned from LP?
I still wouldn't want to play there though, seems too risky.
Although we wouldn't mind speaking to a lawyer, it's not a priority. The protocol is federated so servers can be hosted in many countries (shut one down and it continues running). I won't go into the technical details, but we have a system in place to make sure funds will always be secure in case of seizure (at worst we have a few hours in which to quickly secure the funds into an alternate account which takes ~10 mins).
Milkman lol i didnt spend half a thousand on a phone so i could play it cool and be all stealth
Last edit: 14/12/2010 16:41
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jchysk United States. Dec 14 2010 16:41. Posts 435
On December 14 2010 15:36 iop wrote:
Everything I've heard about genjix is fairly bad, he seems sincere and mature in the first few posts I read on 2+2.
I still wouldn't want to play there though, seems too risky.
Although we wouldn't mind speaking to a lawyer, it's not a priority. The protocol is federated so servers can be hosted in many countries (shut one down and it continues running). I won't go into the technical details, but we have a system in place to make sure funds will always be secure in case of seizure (at worst we have a few hours in which to quickly secure the funds into an alternate account which takes ~10 mins).
Well the idea would be to make it less risky than using existing poker rooms. The way the system is set up is for security purposes, not to slip by legalities.
Also, although genjix was the one that started this project, it is open source and available to everyone. So you can dislike any of the developers and still use the software.
w00t
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[vital]Myth United States. Dec 14 2010 16:48. Posts 12159
wayyyy too risky. the INSTANT somebody finds a security flaw, nobody will know about it. there are far more brilliant programmers who are looking for this kind of opportunity than there are poker players who are sufficiently good programmers to make sure this is secure. the reason why stars/ftp are SO secure is because they have a HUUUUUUUUUGE amount of income to protect and they are able to hire fantastic talent to keep it that way.
besides, nobody but moderately winning or breakeven grinders would want to move to this site anyway. you'll have a very small group of snobby pros getting together and trading money back and forth. any casual player who would put enough effort into their poker-site selection to actually find one that is rake-free is probably a nit anyway.
why don't you try and get HEM/HUDs/all other supplemental programs banned instead? THAT would make a real change in the games
Eh, I can go a few more orbits in life, before taxes blind me out - PoorUser
On December 14 2010 15:36 iop wrote:
Everything I've heard about genjix is not so good, however he seems sincere and mature in the first few posts I've read on 2+2.. Didn't he get banned from LP?
I still wouldn't want to play there though, seems too risky.
Although we wouldn't mind speaking to a lawyer, it's not a priority. The protocol is federated so servers can be hosted in many countries (shut one down and it continues running). I won't go into the technical details, but we have a system in place to make sure funds will always be secure in case of seizure (at worst we have a few hours in which to quickly secure the funds into an alternate account which takes ~10 mins).
dude... you don't have to play you regular stakes here. think of it as a home game and just give a little support to it. Play there to relax or something.
i think this project is a start of a new wave of possibilities in online poker. big dreams, yeah. but it is still a possibility.
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
On December 14 2010 15:48 [vital]Myth wrote:
wayyyy too risky. the INSTANT somebody finds a security flaw, nobody will know about it. there are far more brilliant programmers who are looking for this kind of opportunity than there are poker players who are sufficiently good programmers to make sure this is secure. the reason why stars/ftp are SO secure is because they have a HUUUUUUUUUGE amount of income to protect and they are able to hire fantastic talent to keep it that way.
besides, nobody but moderately winning or breakeven grinders would want to move to this site anyway. you'll have a very small group of snobby pros getting together and trading money back and forth. any casual player who would put enough effort into their poker-site selection to actually find one that is rake-free is probably a nit anyway.
why don't you try and get HEM/HUDs/all other supplemental programs banned instead? THAT would make a real change in the games
don't even try to compare this to a major site. think of this as something like a home game. something fresh and new. just be positive... and good things will come in your life.
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
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PanoRaMa United States. Dec 14 2010 16:55. Posts 1655
You guys remember WSEX? Rake-free poker (well actually just 100% rakeback), anyone know why it never became a big player?
On December 14 2010 15:55 PanoRaMa wrote:
You guys remember WSEX? Rake-free poker (well actually just 100% rakeback), anyone know why it never became a big player?
"We're proposing a community run Poker room. The software will be completely free/open so anyone can inspect it to make improvements. Because eyes of the whole Poker community will be fixed on it, flaws & security problems very quickly disappear. And if you wish to make your own Poker room then you can! As the server code is also free & open."
this is an open source project. that's why it's different. the aim is to make a nice rake free poker room for everyone, not profit.
not even US/European laws can touch this cos the currency is bitcoin. so it is all legal.
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
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PoorUser United States. Dec 14 2010 17:02. Posts 7471
anytime a company doesn't want to "get into the specifics" about where they are going to keep the money i find myself a bit reluctant to be affiliated with them in any way -_-...
I really wish poker sites was owned by poker online players who cared about the community and had knowledge about the online community. If they listen to community we can make some changes to the games that everyone wants such as banning professional shortstackers, limiting HU tables in a way that gives an advantage to players such as Isildur etc that gives action and not just bumhunt. It can make the games great again.
genjix's project is something like a "poker version" of the open source movement.
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
Last edit: 14/12/2010 17:20
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thumbz555 United States. Dec 14 2010 17:19. Posts 3281
WHERE DO I SIGN UP FOR SUPERUSER ACCOUNT?
I click buttons.
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jchysk United States. Dec 14 2010 17:25. Posts 435
http://www.couchsurfing.org/people/genjix - He has positive references :-)
Anyway, everything is open, the reason no specifics were mentioned is because didn't want to get off topic. Anyone who feels like it may look at exactly how the system is run.
On December 14 2010 15:48 [vital]Myth wrote:
wayyyy too risky. the INSTANT somebody finds a security flaw, nobody will know about it. there are far more brilliant programmers who are looking for this kind of opportunity than there are poker players who are sufficiently good programmers to make sure this is secure. the reason why stars/ftp are SO secure is because they have a HUUUUUUUUUGE amount of income to protect and they are able to hire fantastic talent to keep it that way.
besides, nobody but moderately winning or breakeven grinders would want to move to this site anyway. you'll have a very small group of snobby pros getting together and trading money back and forth. any casual player who would put enough effort into their poker-site selection to actually find one that is rake-free is probably a nit anyway.
why don't you try and get HEM/HUDs/all other supplemental programs banned instead? THAT would make a real change in the games
Although I can see why you think like this, you're incorrect about security. The instant somebody finds a security flaw in pokerstars or full tilt, nobody will know about it. Open source security is better than closed source.
"Firstly I shall preface this by saying that security through obscurity is bad security policy. Proven to be false. By saying that everyone has access to the technology means it's less secure is false- it means that everyone has a chance to make it more secure.
That's why Linux (open-source) software is used by armies, banks, nasa, most internet servers and supercomputers- because it leads to secure, solid, reliable software. Whereas Microsoft (commercial closed source) is only dominant in the desktop market. Your android phone? Running Linux.
Simply hiding away the internals of how the technology works and making it difficult to reverse engineer, means that determined motivated people WILL find holes but you make it difficult for the wider community to find problems and fix them."
Malware & Viruses:
Windows: > 2 million malware programs.
Linux: outside of researchers labs: virtually unknown.
Open vs Closed:
Windows: trust Microsoft to do the right thing.
Linux: anyone free to submit fixes.
Response Speed:
Windows: fixes released once a month. Security vulnerabilities known to persist for months and even years.
Linux: sometimes within hours, usually within a few weeks.
User Accounts:
Windows: everyone is Administrator.
Linux: carefully partitioned system with user rights.
The project is already in the works and I don't really see how it could be bad for the poker community. Even if it's not a success and it's just a small site full of nits and geeks at least we're moving in the right direction without harming anyone. If it is a success players have everything to gain. A rake free or heavily rake reduced site with the best software that brings enough competition forward to leverage big sites to reduce rake or improve their software.
w00t
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EvilSky Czech Republic. Dec 14 2010 17:52. Posts 8915
Im all for this and hope it does well but personally Id rather pay rake for the rest of my life on stars.
I am one of the cowards that wishes that this will go all well and all, but will never get wet myself until it is well established. I mean, it has potential, but I don't know if it will succeed. It should work in theory, but as we are all human, I doubt this will work. And I know that this is exactly the attitude that hinders this project, but can you blame me? When it comes to money related stuff, people are going to be (really) careful about it.
I mean, I'm sure a lot of what you say is true (about how great OpenSource is and whatnot). What the hell do I know, really. I'm ignorant about that kind of stuff. But I do know that it is well within human nature to be greedy. Or in the least, succumb to greed, even for a split moment. And that if there is a security flaw of any sort with this site, I don't know how confident I would be in believing that it will get fixed in a timely manner before it gets pimped thoroughly. Also, OpenSource seems to mean that I have no one to blame for when things do go sour. I don't know about you, but I seek comfort in being able to blame somebody when shit goes wrong with my money. If something goes wrong with Stars or FTP (God forbid), you have someone to point your fingers at and they're legally liable for that. If something goes wrong with this project, who's responsible? Non-for-profit is great, but so is for-profit. Actually, it may even be a better model for poker sites. Sites like Stars and FTP are a business. With business, there is a need of maintaining reputation and further improving it, especially in a community like this because reputation is everything. These sites solely run on credibility as they lose the trust of the players, it's over. So they make sure to maintain that reputation and integrity.
Is this bad for poker community? No, if anything, it's great. I agree with that. Is it gonna really work? Who knows. I am supportive about it the project, and I look forward to it. But for the said reasons above, I am not going to get actively involved in it. But I salute the adventurous souls that are willing to take a chance with this.
Well if this doesnt get support then it's going to fail. Genjix is not a terrible or dishonest person fwiw. I havent heard of any open source project that had a community around it make more than enough other than to support development. There is a reason why linux never took off as desktop OS and that is the LACK of support and nothing else. But on the server side of things, it is just as secure and even MORE secure than any expensive server platform, that's why it's being used up to this day by all big companies
It's kind of upsetting that people who don't even have a clue how open source works are immediately against it. People who will run the project will not become instant millionaires because players try this site out. Wsex cannot be compared to this project since wsex ran a sports betting company and is just like any other poker site out their with closed sources, all this time we put our faith in statistical impossiblilites just because "oh no, its pokerstars, it must be FAIR" lol any elite programmer can tell you how doable it is to rig games with proprietary software if it will make them billions in revenue, but no they cant be doing funny stuff or deploying superusers because it will be bad for business.
Anything to help this project out before it dies ( like other hundreds and thousands of programs out there who dont get enough support) should at least be considered. You CAN work on your game and support this project, ppl need not be defensive about looking like a fish or belong to the "losing players , fpp pro demographic " to support this. The possbility alone that this can be done is good enough at least to be looked at . its going to be good for players and keep poker companies on their toes some much needed pressure from what the players really need.
uhh i think im on board with you on this. read carefully what i posted lol
i said THEY wont be making money on this. the concept is based on p2p, much like torrents and stuff. theres just no way to stop them and they will be something companies will have to deal with and keep them in check. this whole conecpt just needs to have the support of the open source community, sadly , there are very few people who understand it and play serious poker. for a living. making this whole thing look bad and silly really. this whole thing needs to be explained in a less technical way
Last edit: 14/12/2010 20:52
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WRAWRAWRAWRA United States. Dec 14 2010 20:53. Posts 39
genjix's project is something like a "poker version" of the open source movement.
yeah but most open source software doesn't concern thousands (possibly even millions) of dollars. even linux (which is open source) often turns to proprietary distros when it concerns servers. you would need the support of some GREAT programmers, would need perfectly pure and uncorruptable project leaders, an initial group of people willing to try it, etc etc.
aka it won't work.
KENYAN LIONS WHAT I DO NOW?!?!?!
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WRAWRAWRAWRA United States. Dec 14 2010 20:57. Posts 39
also, you wouldn't (and shouldn't) be eager or willing to deposit on the cereus network. but is it that much shadier than an open-source project? i really can't imagine this ever taking off and sustaining itself with great success.
genjix's project is something like a "poker version" of the open source movement.
yeah but most open source software doesn't concern thousands (possibly even millions) of dollars. even linux (which is open source) often turns to proprietary distros when it concerns servers. you would need the support of some GREAT programmers, would need perfectly pure and uncorruptable project leaders, an initial group of people willing to try it, etc etc.
aka it won't work.
it won't work, it will work... who knows. but this is a good thing with great potential.
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
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milkman United States. Dec 14 2010 21:07. Posts 5719
funny how SOO many great programmers have no idea what is useful and just a complete waste of time..
Its hard to make a easy buck legally, its impossible to make a easy buck morally.
On December 14 2010 19:57 WRAWRAWRAWRA wrote:
also, you wouldn't (and shouldn't) be eager or willing to deposit on the cereus network. but is it that much shadier than an open-source project? i really can't imagine this ever taking off and sustaining itself with great success.
it doesnt even have to be a resounding success. why does it have to be the premiere poker room in the universe for it to work? i dont get this attitude. the project isnt asking us for a hundred bucks or a dollar, doesnt even require you to spend your whole day discussing it. im pretty sure everyone here's sent 2cents to kidpoker as a goof but refuse to give the idea any help or attention whatsoever, even shoot the idea down for some reason. anyway poker players might have something better to do with their time like go to facebook or play cod and sc2. personally im happy with the status quo, i make enough money for myself and have no plans of playing years from now, its jsut a good idea to have alternatives for everyone who needs it thats all, couldnt care less tbh, but the idea in itself is a good one which can benefit the vast majority and i hate seeing it go to waste like that.
imagine pokerstars, ftp.. etc.. etc.. as these "big casinos". in those "big casinos", you get fpp pros, rake back pros, those solid grinders. now, sometimes you just wanna play poker with your friends, have fun and relax. where do you go? to a "home game", where poker is pure, fun and the way it should be. so you get your bit coin... log in that "home game" site without rake, play for a few hours then withdraw and log out.
so the whole idea of this site is just to give you an alternative. you don't even have to build a BR in that site and leave insane amounts in it. it's all about having fun playing poker.
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
Last edit: 14/12/2010 21:24
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chris United States. Dec 14 2010 21:56. Posts 5503
i am in support of this project. if it is in its infancy and has lots of room to improve. i support rake free poker and if genjix can put together a legit site where everything is safe, secure, and fun/easy to play on, why not support him? lets get some fish on it!
i wish we didnt shoot down every idea that comes up if there is already an established alternative. think about commercial jets vs ocean liners? who wants to take a jet when we know these boats work fine.
probalby not quite the same, im just saying we should give it a chance, not deposit any money until its 100% secure, transparent, etc and we need fish. it could still be a good piece of software
5 minute showers are my 8 minute abs. - Neilly
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vasoline73 United States. Dec 14 2010 22:18. Posts 808
Would like to see the project work but I don't know that I could help with anything other than being a test player or something. Either way, I don't think anyone expects this to "beat" the major sites... it could just be a nice alternative. .
Minsk United States. Dec 14 2010 22:25. Posts 1558
obviously worth supporting...if it works correct...guessing making it work correct is the harder part
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thewh00sel United States. Dec 14 2010 22:29. Posts 2734
I think this is a good idea with some solid potential. Even if it doesn't take over it can set a trend that will lower rake. Players should probably support this movement.
A government is the most dangerous threat to man’s rights: it holds a legal monopoly on the use of physical force against legally disarmed victims. - Ayn Rand
great idea, rake free online poker would be so sweet, it's funny tho that some players wonder... "wtf i'm a breakeven rakeback pro how am I gonna win money at this site?"
bitte bitte bitte bitte bitte bitte
0
WhereDaHoneyz United States. Dec 14 2010 23:34. Posts 29
Hello everyone, genjix here.
First point: I don't like that the title has my name in it. Other people are also investing considerable effort and money into this venture. Without them, I'd have made some pretty terrible decisions already. Notice the 2+2 thread where I always refer to "our" project, not "my" project.
The project started a while back when on these forums people were arguing with me that it's impossible to make Poker software. That I'm stupid and don't understand the costs involved. People were throwing words around about the rake and how it could never be fixed.
So I went off and just started writing a Poker room. I wanted to show everyone here that you're all being scammed. That Poker software is the easiest thing in the world to write. Furthermore you can take control of your destinies. I had a little fear that maybe Poker players aren't as altruistic or as self-less as the hacker subculture or free-software enthusiasts are.
I made a few posts here and there and then jchysk joined up. Since then we've been working closely and he's been doing a ton of work. We needed testers so we at our first online meeting, we decided that we'd try to find a few people from the community who'd be willing to test- maybe a couple of people. I made a post on 2+2 and next day- nothing. Then I made a second post, this time more furious and passionate and came back.
Really we did not expect today when posting, the huge amount of interest. My PM has been swamped by people congratulating us. It's touching. My favourite:
Hello,
You Sir, are my hero, and you're not only 1000% more prepared then anyone else so far, you also are handling the shills and unnecessary negativity like a true champion.
You may not need this encouragement but I wanted to send it anyway. Just watch this work it's self out This is only the beginning...
Ah shucks. And lots of new volunteers. So this co-operative spirit you see elsewhere in Wikipedia, Linux, ... There are wellsprings of this goodwill swimming around the greed and egoism. Poker players can seize the technology from the masters.
Right now, we were just looking for a few testers. We've met that quota by far. Next we will just get on with making the software and once it's complete, we will put it out there. No point arguing with people in self-denial until the proof is in their face.
The internet, Linux, Wikipedia, Wikileaks, ... These were all ridiculed early-on as destined to fail.
On December 14 2010 19:12 redrain0125 wrote:
cliffnotes: genjix cant be a winner in poker
Or maybe I've just been a huge Linux fan since 14 years old, very much involved in technology and it pains me to see the exploitative situation in this area. Yes, I am one of those all-information-should-be-free non-copyright hacker types with a libertarian/anarchist slant.
You can read my essay on software freedom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Genjix/Free_Software
Everyone else: you're _all_ valuable. Just having your ideas. The amount of creative solutions that people proposed to me today was incredible and blows my mind.
Hope to see you on the IRC chat this Thursday at GMT 2200 irc://irc.freenode.org/pokerface http://pastecoin.com/cgi-bin/irc.cgi (web interface for non-IRC users)
On December 14 2010 19:24 Nazgul wrote:
You'd be crazy to deposit money onto a community ran poker network.
Honestly considering you make money off of Pokerstars and FTP through referrals I'm not sure your opinion is the most unbiased on the subject. It's been mentioned in this thread and it's true open source security is just as good. It's all well and good to be cautious but any security issue is going to be openly debated and fixed. Why is it you feel so secure with Pokerstars just because it's a commercial enterprize? UB and Absolute bet were in the same boat and guess what they fucked people over. Same with smaller private skins like RedNines and stuff like that.
Sorry dude he Jason Bourned me. -Johnny Drama
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FullBRing Philippines. Dec 15 2010 00:08. Posts 581
It will never works coz this is a fkn basic rule of economy, wich product will you support for the same offer ? the free one or the other one ?
Paying for a service is always less supsicous than a free one. Economy works like that, think about it. More trust and more "supposed value" in the expansive shit ^^
On December 14 2010 23:08 FullBRing wrote:
It will never works coz this is a fkn basic rule of economy, wich product will you support for the same offer ? the free one or the other one ?
Paying for a service is always less supsicous than a free one. Economy works like that, think about it. More trust and more "supposed value" in the expansive shit ^^
not necessarily true... it's all branding. and if this project "brands" itself well and the crowd responds positively, it could all work.
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
On December 14 2010 23:08 FullBRing wrote:
It will never works coz this is a fkn basic rule of economy, wich product will you support for the same offer ? the free one or the other one ?
Paying for a service is always less supsicous than a free one. Economy works like that, think about it. More trust and more "supposed value" in the expansive shit ^^
most big companies only trust LINUX with no distro attached to it, since it is the most secure platform out there hands down. you just need a team who can build it to perfection. pokerstars and this model can co -exist. i think most are scared since they dont want to leave the "benefits" of sites only to risk losing their BRs and livelhood due to something wrong happening without a tough corporate "big brother" backing them up, or losing traffic from sites they play in, all these are very understandable concerns and i think they are very important to consider as well. If anything I think the idea will help the poker economy and make more people wanna play poker and try different sites, personally i would play at liquidpoker.net poker room, shoot shit with lpers and even have some other players play here as well(imagine TL coming here to learn to play). poker's appeal has kinda died down, that is coz there are less and less ideas out there to encourage ppl to play, most that have had the interest either dont trust online poker and stuck with live, or have played and lost a lot of money feeling "cheated" of the rake. with a community run poker economy we can actually have players coming back to play again. leave the marketing to forum sites themselves. pokerstars is not the end-all, be-all of poker, nor did they invent or patent it, people seem to forget that poker is a live game turned into a mmorpg by online poker sites
lol wall of text sorry. but thats the last of it. anyway just hope you guys give it a thought at least.
Last edit: 15/12/2010 00:40
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milkman United States. Dec 15 2010 00:53. Posts 5719
On December 14 2010 20:12 Helmet wrote:
it's not a waste of time once you get enough users logging in... give it a chance.
ohhh yes it is.. Dutch Boyd tried to make a no rake poker site before the online boom, and look where he ended up... broke and in the loony bin
Its hard to make a easy buck legally, its impossible to make a easy buck morally.
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Steal City United States. Dec 15 2010 01:38. Posts 2537
On December 14 2010 15:36 iop wrote:
Everything I've heard about genjix is not so good, however he seems sincere and mature in the first few posts I've read on 2+2.. Didn't he get banned from LP?
I still wouldn't want to play there though, seems too risky.
Although we wouldn't mind speaking to a lawyer, it's not a priority. The protocol is federated so servers can be hosted in many countries (shut one down and it continues running). I won't go into the technical details, but we have a system in place to make sure funds will always be secure in case of seizure (at worst we have a few hours in which to quickly secure the funds into an alternate account which takes ~10 mins).
Is this a fucking joke???? Do you need absolutely no solid base to make public statements like these???
i am 99% sure I know what iop is basing this off of and he just lost a bunch of respect from me until if he makes it right. He is a mod and he shouldn't be spreading heresay attained from people that have proven themselves to be of lesser trustworthiness than then he even claims the person to be.
If we need to make things public we can. And obv if you don't change ur post commenting on his personality and ... it is easily inferenced, his trustworthiness, then i'll have to.
Genjix's person shouldn't even be brought up and people attacking the idea of this site have no understanding of the proposition. The site in question would not rely on any individuals trustworthiness and it's entirely feasible that it could be more reliable than FTP or Stars even. I can't imagine actually, if this site were to have and significant volume that it wouldn't be more safer than playing live poker at the very least.
My post was judging by his blog posts/posts that he's made on lp. If you leave a community on bad terms, and come back and hope for support, you kind of what to rethink how the community views you, and/if they're going to support your project.
I should have used the word seen and not heard - im sorry for the wording as it could easily be misinterpreted (as we've seen) http://genjix.liquidpoker.net - I'm afraid you can't see the content of some of his posts, but you can still see the comments.
He however sent me a PM clarifying some stuff.
I still would be very hesitant to play on such a site, once money becomes involved stuff can happen. I'm still interested in following the project, since I find it an interesting one
Milkman lol i didnt spend half a thousand on a phone so i could play it cool and be all stealth
I'll make a blog post about this later. (I was the guy who started the p2p poker brainstorm thread).
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Steal City United States. Dec 15 2010 03:26. Posts 2537
I think his blog is hilarious. I don't lol often but that was fun, thanks for directing me, and I think there are a few uptight apples.
I also think being a little brash is what an LP blog or the LP general section is primarily used as. That and discussing already disproved conspiracy theories or economics by people who haven't taken econ 101.
Also he wasn't banned it looks like. He may have chosen to leave on bad terms (that blog post is deleted). Also he didn't come back here, someone posted something of his from 2p2. Also, if it weren't for altruistic people like him, wikipedia wouldn't exist.
A couple years ago I was having bank problems because I was outside the US and I had just closed a bank account of mine and I couldn't withdraw to my etrade account because it's not a normal bank account (for one thing the routing for direct deposits has to go to another bank first and the etrade bank account numbers are 8 digits long). I trusted him with thousands of dollars (at a single time) when he was living very modestly and had no job and was running out of money while travelling. He may be the most trustworthy person with $ that I know.
Also, I went with him to the police station for foreigners in Serbia to ask if he should do a border run to renew his visa because it will expire before his scheduled flight. They said, no just come back before you go. So the day before his flight, which is a week after his visa expired we go back to get the stamp and pay the 50euro fee the lady said we would have to pay. She had said, don't try just going to the airport, cause then u can get in trouble. Anyway, after more than 12 hours of being detained, him getting harassed by cops, they tell me I can go back to see him in the court, which is also part of a police department and jail facility. They say if he can't produce idk what it was 600$ or something, he would go to jail for a month. He didn't have the money, I paid for him knowing he wouldn't be able to pay me back till he was almost a continent away and that he didn't even have the money at the time. He worked his ass off and paid me back as if it was his top priority.
He has never asked me for money aside from when he was almost unjustly jailed. People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy.
most rakefree poker rooms give 100% rakeback, i think people always compare it to how absolutely no rake works, no rake means no rake, not 100% rakeback.
most these "rakefree" rooms just use rakefree but still have a lot of requirements for you to qualify for it. and all these poker rooms were proprietary and profit oriented in nature, that's why they close.
1
EvilSky Czech Republic. Dec 15 2010 05:25. Posts 8915
On December 15 2010 02:26 Steal City wrote:
I think his blog is hilarious. I don't lol often but that was fun, thanks for directing me, and I think there are a few uptight apples.
I also think being a little brash is what an LP blog or the LP general section is primarily used as. That and discussing already disproved conspiracy theories or economics by people who haven't taken econ 101.
Also he wasn't banned it looks like. He may have chosen to leave on bad terms (that blog post is deleted). Also he didn't come back here, someone posted something of his from 2p2. Also, if it weren't for altruistic people like him, wikipedia wouldn't exist.
A couple years ago I was having bank problems because I was outside the US and I had just closed a bank account of mine and I couldn't withdraw to my etrade account because it's not a normal bank account (for one thing the routing for direct deposits has to go to another bank first and the etrade bank account numbers are 8 digits long). I trusted him with thousands of dollars (at a single time) when he was living very modestly and had no job and was running out of money while travelling. He may be the most trustworthy person with $ that I know.
Also, I went with him to the police station for foreigners in Serbia to ask if he should do a border run to renew his visa because it will expire before his scheduled flight. They said, no just come back before you go. So the day before his flight, which is a week after his visa expired we go back to get the stamp and pay the 50euro fee the lady said we would have to pay. She had said, don't try just going to the airport, cause then u can get in trouble. Anyway, after more than 12 hours of being detained, him getting harassed by cops, they tell me I can go back to see him in the court, which is also part of a police department and jail facility. They say if he can't produce idk what it was 600$ or something, he would go to jail for a month. He didn't have the money, I paid for him knowing he wouldn't be able to pay me back till he was almost a continent away and that he didn't even have the money at the time. He worked his ass off and paid me back as if it was his top priority.
He has never asked me for money aside from when he was almost unjustly jailed. People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy.
Well that settles it then...
1
Steal City United States. Dec 15 2010 08:48. Posts 2537
idk what ur implying EvilSky. But I don't like friend's character's being attacked based on nothing. And genjix's character isn't even relevant to the thread. People should scrutinize the OP and the basis of their claims before making such statements.
This idea has no right of existance in a poker world, sorry.
1
Surprise United States. Dec 15 2010 14:32. Posts 275
I support this.
the games you own at, end up owning you
1
chris United States. Dec 15 2010 21:21. Posts 5503
i like genjix, we have spent many an hour on skype. like donald, i would say genjix is trustworthy.
people who are making this about genjix have to be trolling, who is against rake free poker?
and this shouldnt even be about genjix. he is a part of something being created, and it has a lot of potential. if you do not like genjix personally, keep it to yourself. this is about the site development not your opinion of his blogs.
and he didnt come back to the community as an attention whore, someone else posted a link to what he was doing.
i posted it cos i got excited about this project. i was thinking a lot would at least give a little support and some words of encouragement for a fellow LP'er.
but some people got all emo...
we'd rather hear what myth, cosmo, etc etc said... they just didn't think it would work. cool, we respect your opinions.
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
this whole thing was posted awhile back and it died down coz it got shot down. i didnt really know fudyann, genjix and some other guys still kept on even with no funding or a lot of support, i thought it was already canned, which is really what proprietary money making projects will become with no help. That alone makes me think they really want to make this to happen, funding or no, its very admirable and is honestly the heart of any open source project that flourishes. its ok to be wait and see about this, but at least keep in mind this is for the greater good and all it really needs is for people to help out in any way they can.
"What if every table was hosted by a different person, and when you bought in to a table, money was transferred from your ewallet account to the host's ewallet account. Then when you stood up from the table, money would be transferred back to your account dependent on your results?
This would effectively mean each poker table is its own card room, and would not be tied financially to any poker site. Anyone could host any poker game they wanted with any parameters they wanted, and allow anyone they want to buy in. We could allow or disallow people to charge whatever rake they wanted, and I'm sure there would be lots of clients where you could browse poker games being offered or offer poker games yourself, and I have a feeling that the end result would be something like a much better version of what we see now when we browse a poker lobby, but would be much cheaper and infinitely more customizable and user-friendly."
it's a good read...
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
Last edit: 15/12/2010 22:30
1
Sanity United States. Dec 15 2010 22:36. Posts 1076
this would be sick and i would support it but i dont see it happening and would be worried about the security.
LOL people being negative with open source, if you don't know about something go read about it, there's nothing wrong with having no clue about something.
This project is good in many ways, because even when you don't want do deposit your money on a project because it isn't as commercial as PS or FTP it could inspire more people to build their own software, and with more alternatives even big sites can start taking ideas from this projects.
Another good thing about being an Open Source project is that, there's a lot of possibilities, you can take the code and use it to create a network to play only with your friends, you can even take out the money thing, and make a play money poker room, put ads, and start earning money. Use it for coaching purposes or i don't know.
C'mon he's not saying that it will overwhelm PS and FTP, and he's not asking to put your entire bankroll on that site.
Another good thing about being an Open Source project is that, there's a lot of possibilities, you can take the code and use it to create a network to play only with your friends, you can even take out the money thing, and make a play money poker room, put ads, and start earning money. Use it for coaching purposes or i don't know.
... or sell the idea to justin timberlake and get big company funding. the possibilities are endless... hope they get it online soon and get as many users as possible so that they get noticed.
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
Last edit: 15/12/2010 23:44
1
milkman United States. Dec 16 2010 00:18. Posts 5719
maybe i could work out a advertisement deal with genjix.. i would settle for him charging me rake and giving me 100% back and making my name red.
Its hard to make a easy buck legally, its impossible to make a easy buck morally.
On December 15 2010 23:18 milkman wrote:
maybe i could work out a advertisement deal with genjix.. i would settle for him charging me rake and giving me 100% back and making my name red.
maybe. gl.
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
when u hire lee jones and unassigned and get them to say that the site is aight, all of this after getting an advertising and marketing budget, and then the sites been runnin 2 years and after all of that shit or the equivalent, aight, i might give u a look
lets go fucking mental la la la la lets go fucking mental lets go fucking mental lala la la
I haven't been involved in this yet and I don't know what direction they plan to go in, but I think a lot of people are missing a couple points:
_This is obviously not meant to be a competitor to PS et al (at least not yet). To think that that is possible right now is delusional. Imo, this should solely be seen as a proof of concept. If it worked, it would be interesting to see if it can be monetized through advertising/some other model that at least depends on people_in_play and not money_in_play.
_Security concerns should be non-existent to minimal. You don't have to deposit your savings, in fact it would be pointless to deposit more than $5. Open source means that any technical security concerns can be addressed by code review. The internet being what it is today, (finding information on) implementing good security features would not be difficult and can be reduced to copying code from other open source projects.
This project certainly doesn't require hiring "fantastic talent" to code any of it, but I'm not trying to undervalue any of the work you guys did/are doing so far. There are SOOOOO many good reasons to do this as a proof of concept.
On December 15 2010 13:05 Defrag wrote:
This idea has no right of existance in a poker world, sorry.
If (there was a rake free site) that {(found a good way to monetize independently of player balances) and (got the support of some pros and community)} your comment would be silly. Even if there wasn't...your comment would still be short sighted. I wonder why you think that....
Anyways, there are many hurdles to it getting to that point that I'm not sure it will work. Some questions:
_What will happen to balances not in play? Will the money accumulate interest? Who would be in charge of that?
_Since it will be decentralized and this is 2010, are there plans for a web app?
- HTML 5 might make that a joke to code, but I don't know that for sure... Android app? I think these are things you can do with relatively little effort, and still not get too far ahead of yourselves. This has my support 100% for coding and testing... not sure about money.
Last edit: 16/12/2010 04:52
1
F4Zi United Kingdom. Dec 16 2010 04:52. Posts 3462
just remember him acting like a 5 year old in london. maybe he has grown up. all the best.
My girlfriend started blowing me and then she stopped, I went on tilt and donkey punched her.
1
okyougosu Russian Federation. Dec 16 2010 05:22. Posts 963
but there is a rake-free World Poker Exchange already isn't it?
Lammerman
1
Silver_nz New Zealand. Dec 16 2010 05:24. Posts 5647
Level of blind ignorance and people putting their fingers in their ears yelling "never going to work lalala" here, is amazing.
Poker players as a group of people are pretty open minded and evidence-based, but to see even smart people like nazgul, cosmo, myth categorically dismissing this concept without even understanding what it is, disheartening for humanity as a whole!
and steal city is all: "genjix's trustworthiness is nothing to do with this project.. now to tell you how trustworthy genjix is and put alot of foucs on the topic of genjixs' trustworthiness!"
...And I'm all: "ahh yes, meta-criticism, is there any better kind? <sip water from a wine glass>"
back to network-of-trust based poker games on the internet!
1
milkman United States. Dec 16 2010 06:05. Posts 5719
On December 16 2010 04:24 Silver_nz wrote:
Level of blind ignorance and people putting their fingers in their ears yelling "never going to work lalala" here, is amazing.
Poker players as a group of people are pretty open minded and evidence-based, but to see even smart people like nazgul, cosmo, myth categorically dismissing this concept without even understanding what it is, disheartening for humanity as a whole!
and steal city is all: "genjix's trustworthiness is nothing to do with this project.. now to tell you how trustworthy genjix is and put alot of foucs on the topic of genjixs' trustworthiness!"
...And I'm all: "ahh yes, meta-criticism, is there any better kind? <sip water from a wine glass>"
back to network-of-trust based poker games on the internet!
dude its liquidpoker.. any thread these days is gonna get turned into a derailed drama trolling shit storm.. i dont think ive created a single thread in the last 2 years that someone hasnt been like "lol tornado" or "get in the pantry" or just someone trying to troll and derail. The whole sites just a unmoderated poopy blob of words so nazgul can make money off rakeback. We did bring water to africa tho so that was 1 good thing that came from this community.. doubt anything else will tho.
Its hard to make a easy buck legally, its impossible to make a easy buck morally.
1
Steal City United States. Dec 16 2010 06:45. Posts 2537
On December 16 2010 04:24 Silver_nz wrote:
Level of blind ignorance and people putting their fingers in their ears yelling "never going to work lalala" here, is amazing.
Poker players as a group of people are pretty open minded and evidence-based, but to see even smart people like nazgul, cosmo, myth categorically dismissing this concept without even understanding what it is, disheartening for humanity as a whole!
and steal city is all: "genjix's trustworthiness is nothing to do with this project.. now to tell you how trustworthy genjix is and put alot of foucs on the topic of genjixs' trustworthiness!"
...And I'm all: "ahh yes, meta-criticism, is there any better kind? <sip water from a wine glass>"
back to network-of-trust based poker games on the internet!
how is this wrong
"genjix's trustworthiness is nothing to do with this project.. now to tell you how trustworthy genjix is and put alot of foucs on the topic of genjixs' trustworthiness!"
it's not the place but he was attacked and I defended... but I wasn't defending on the basis of it being part of the objective of the thread by the OP but defending on the basis that his trustworthiness was brought into question
Intersango.com intersango.com
0
NeillyJQ United States. Dec 16 2010 07:14. Posts 8947
Great idea, seems nearly impossible to pull enough of a player base to be able to multitable etc though;
imo this would be an amazing cell phone app for traveling and 1 tabling
stay with your gut and do your best gengix,
gl w/ your endeavors,
Ryan
Just remember you need to be god damn sure about their tendencies. -Artanis11 http://www.pocketfives.com/profiles/neillyaa/
I think it's pretty amazing the effort genjix, jchysk and others involved seem to be putting into something like this for alturistic goals and ideals. Having been a poker player as long as I have, it's almost unheard of to me for there to be people out there putting time and effort into something for reasons other than chasing personal gain. Even if you don't think it's going to work or question the ideals they're motivated by (that poker sites are charging too much at lowstakes etc) you still have to admit it's v admirable there are people doing this.
Quick question, is Bitcoin the only form of handling money/keeping score being considered at this stage? One way I would like to use an open source poker server + client software if it existed would be to set up private 'home' games with players I trust, where funds transfer between losers and winners would be handled by the players themselves afterwards, say by full tilt transfer or something. The way I imagine it would go something like, I challenge my friend to a rake-free $5/10 HU 4tabling grudge/sparring match. I get the open source poker server running and use the server admin panel to create two user accounts on the server, one for me and one for my friend. I use the admin panel to set the cashier balances of both our accounts to 10k virtual monies. Somehow there's full transparency of server admin actions like making accounts and manually changing balances so that any user logged into a user account can see a list of all admin actions to see nothing shady is going on etc. Now my friend and I both get the open source client running and make it connect to the server I have running and we log into our accounts where we each have 10k virtual monies in our cashiers to start off with. Now we play the match and it works just as youd expect this software to work, most of it happens server side and the client just does what the client should. At the end of the match I've lost 8k to my friend and say gg and decide to quit bc im a fish. We check our balances using the cashier button on the client to confirm the final tally and I send him what I owe him over full tilt transfer or bank wire or I.O.U note or food stamps or whatever else we agreed on. Then later on I import the HHs from the match into HEM to review them because the awesome opensource software also recorded all the HHs on my computer in the standard HEM format.
On December 14 2010 22:55 Bejamin1 wrote:
Honestly considering you make money off of Pokerstars and FTP through referrals I'm not sure your opinion is the most unbiased on the subject. It's been mentioned in this thread and it's true open source security is just as good. It's all well and good to be cautious but any security issue is going to be openly debated and fixed. Why is it you feel so secure with Pokerstars just because it's a commercial enterprize? UB and Absolute bet were in the same boat and guess what they fucked people over. Same with smaller private skins like RedNines and stuff like that.
Let's say this project was perfect and it functioned safer than anything else with no rake and offered all the benefits and was completely legal and basically a gods gift for every poker player the only thing that would do for me is make me incredibly happy. Unlike some I don't actually put money over my values and I would never say something is bad for the sole reason of making more money. We actually make a lot less per player from PS/FTP because they offer the shittiest deals because they are so good. I'll be the first to say that they are the safest and most trustworthy pokersites out there. I'm not here to tell you other pokernetworks are safer than FTP/PS so that I can earn more money.
The mentioning of open source security by jchysk being just as good as a commercial security is very limited look at things. It looks at Linux and Windows and nothing else. If you look a bit deeper into this it mentions "armies, banks, nasa, most internet servers and supercomputers" using Linux. However it fails to look at the comparison where there is no way on earth that these companies would have used Linux in its earliest stages of development. Linux is an old program that has had a lot of time to mature. Saying look nasa uses an open source program so we can do it too is clearly not looking at the bigger picture; it went through years and years of open source development before being mentioned in this topic as used by companies that needed a secure program. To put a pokernetwork out there and refer to Linux as a good example of open source working for security is in fact not supporting the argument but it is hurting it as it is a completely different situation.
The way a wikipedia works is that when you have a base of millions/billions of people an error is quickly found and removed. If your base of capable/understanding/willing people is smaller this, fast development is actually not the case. (small note of experience is that I run a wikipedia on www.teamliquid.net for StarCraft). When you have such a small group of people willing and capable to help out, which was/is the case for StarCraft (our wikipedia), you need a fully committed and trustworthy staff who have the dedication to keep going because the users simply won't fix your problems. When you limit your input solely to those who know how to program (which is the case for a pokernetwork) this group of people who can put in the effort for quick changes becomes even smaller and essentially it will not be a community ran project but it will become a project where a limited group of people (those who started it most likely) will have to do the majority of the work; the opposite of the attitude "it's open source so everybody will fix security holes". In terms of effort wikipedia and open-source need a staff for as long as it is not millions of people improving it because just open source or just a wikipedia simply is not going to present you with a quality product if the group of users able to adjust things is too small.
That is just in terms of effort and whether you can find enough people to work on this. A second issue is speed of development. Programming is no easy thing and it's not like you just write 5 minutes of code to fix a security hole. It takes time to research and look around, then it takes more time to actually get something done about it, if the person doing this is even capable enough. This means that security holes will be around for a decent amount of time. It's not like you just point at a security hole and it's fixed the next minute. In fact if the organization running this software finds a security hole it is probably safer to temporarily take the site down as it's pretty risky not knowing how fast your open source will be ready to fix it.
So effort, speed are two factors and then the last factor is unique to being a pokernetwork and that is trusting those who work on your open source. Wikipedia which is not about money yet there are a lot of people just messing with it, but because there are millions of others checking it this is usually easily overcome. When your group of dedicated open source users is limited (like I said the fact that it is only programmers who can work on it is a huge limitation vs something like a wiki) it is also easier for someone with bad intentions not to fix a security hole but instead abuse it. The stories of people abusing irregularities, agreements or flat out trying to scam in this industry are incredibly high and are not something to be taken lightly. Any financial sector will have a huge amount of people trying to take advantages of the way things work and poker is no different. In fact with the gambling aspect added to it it is probably one of the most sensitive industries to people ignoring morals and choosing to do only that which is good for themselves.
The Bitcoin system is a pretty awesome currency system to use for this because it deals with a lot of the risks regarding having a bankroll somewhere, and probably the only way to give something like this a try at all.
Why is it you feel so secure with Pokerstars just because it's a commercial enterprize?
Then lastly I want to respond to this specifically. Yes. I feel secure with PokerStars because they make money from being trustworthy. If PokerStars has a security hole they will have to do everything in their power to refund those who were damaged by it. They have the money to do so, and they have an image to uphold to continue doing this in the future. The moment a commercial entity is able to make the choice where illegally taking money (or not refunding) is more EV for them than maintaining their good image that is when things become dangerous and the point where we have to rely on the morals of such a company. PokerStars however we don't even have to question their morals because simple business sense tells them they can't risk any kind of security hole being responsible for consumers losing money. We all know PokerStars has enough money and that they are in this for the long run so there is absolutely no way in my mind anything will be more secure than them.
Lastly I have very mixed feelings about this project. I do admire the effort of doing all this from an idealistic perspective. It is something I can relate to and that I can really appreciate and have nothing but respect for that attitude. But I also see the potential trouble related to it that may end up hurting people. I really hope that this project gets off its feet without causing damage to those believing in it.
You almost twin-caracked his AK - JonnyCosmo
Last edit: 16/12/2010 11:00
1
Steal City United States. Dec 16 2010 10:31. Posts 2537
On December 16 2010 08:20 Ket wrote:
I think it's pretty amazing the effort genjix, jchysk and others involved seem to be putting into something like this for alturistic goals and ideals. Having been a poker player as long as I have, it's almost unheard of to me for there to be people out there putting time and effort into something for reasons other than chasing personal gain. Even if you don't think it's going to work or question the ideals they're motivated by (that poker sites are charging too much at lowstakes etc) you still have to admit it's v admirable there are people doing this.
Quick question, is Bitcoin the only form of handling money/keeping score being considered at this stage? One way I would like to use an open source poker server + client software if it existed would be to set up private 'home' games with players I trust, where funds transfer between losers and winners would be handled by the players themselves afterwards, say by full tilt transfer or something. The way I imagine it would go something like, I challenge my friend to a rake-free $5/10 HU 4tabling grudge/sparring match. I get the open source poker server running and use the server admin panel to create two user accounts on the server, one for me and one for my friend. I use the admin panel to set the cashier balances of both our accounts to 10k virtual monies. Somehow there's full transparency of server admin actions like making accounts and manually changing balances so that any user logged into a user account can see a list of all admin actions to see nothing shady is going on etc. Now my friend and I both get the open source client running and make it connect to the server I have running and we log into our accounts where we each have 10k virtual monies in our cashiers to start off with. Now we play the match and it works just as youd expect this software to work, most of it happens server side and the client just does what the client should. At the end of the match I've lost 8k to my friend and say gg and decide to quit bc im a fish. We check our balances using the cashier button on the client to confirm the final tally and I send him what I owe him over full tilt transfer or bank wire or I.O.U note or food stamps or whatever else we agreed on. Then later on I import the HHs from the match into HEM to review them because the awesome opensource software also recorded all the HHs on my computer in the standard HEM format.
On December 14 2010 22:55 Bejamin1 wrote:
Honestly considering you make money off of Pokerstars and FTP through referrals I'm not sure your opinion is the most unbiased on the subject. It's been mentioned in this thread and it's true open source security is just as good. It's all well and good to be cautious but any security issue is going to be openly debated and fixed. Why is it you feel so secure with Pokerstars just because it's a commercial enterprize? UB and Absolute bet were in the same boat and guess what they fucked people over. Same with smaller private skins like RedNines and stuff like that.
Let's say this project was perfect and it functioned safer than anything else with no rake and offered all the benefits and was completely legal and basically a gods gift for every poker player the only thing that would do for me is make me incredibly happy. Unlike some I don't actually put money over my values and I would never say something is bad for the sole reason of making more money. We actually make a lot less per player from PS/FTP because they offer the shittiest deals because they are so good. I'll be the first to say that they are the safest and most trustworthy pokersites out there. I'm not here to tell you other pokernetworks are safer than FTP/PS so that I can earn more money.
The mentioning of open source security by jchysk being just as good as a commercial security is very limited look at things. It looks at Linux and Windows and nothing else. If you look a bit deeper into this it mentions "armies, banks, nasa, most internet servers and supercomputers" using Linux. However it fails to look at the comparison where there is no way on earth that these companies would have used Linux in its earliest stages of development. Linux is an old program that has had a lot of time to mature. Saying look nasa uses an open source program so we can do it too is clearly not looking at the bigger picture; it went through years and years of open source development before being mentioned in this topic as used by companies that needed a secure program. To put a pokernetwork out there and refer to Linux as a good example of open source working for security is in fact not supporting the argument but it is hurting it as it is a completely different situation.
The way a wikipedia works is that when you have a base of millions/billions of people an error is quickly found and removed. If your base of capable/understanding/willing people is smaller this fast development is actually not the case. (small note of experience is that I run a wikipedia on www.teamliquid.net for StarCraft). When you have such a small group of people willing and capable to help out, which was/is the case for StarCraft (our wikipedia), you need a fully committed and trustworthy staff who have the dedication to keep going because the users simply won't fix your problems. When you limit your input solely to those who know how to program (which is the case for a pokernetwork) this group of people who can put in the effort for quick changes becomes even smaller and essentially it will not be a community ran project but it will become a project where a limited group of people (those who started it most likely) will have to do the majority of the work; the opposite of the attitude "it's open source so everybody will fix security holes". In terms of effort wikipedia and open-source need a staff for as long as it is not millions of people improving it because just open source or just a wikipedia simply is not going to present you with a quality product if the group of users able to adjust things is too small.
That is just in terms of effort and whether you can find enough people to work on this. A second issue is speed of development. Programming is no easy thing and it's not like you just write 5 minutes of code to fix a security hole. It takes time to research and look around, then it takes more time to actually get something done about it, if the person doing this is even capable enough. This means that security holes will be around for a decent amount of time. It's not like you just point at a security hole and it's fixed the next minute. In fact if the organization running this software finds a security hole it is probably safer to temporarily take the site down as it's pretty risky not knowing how fast your open source will be ready to fix it.
So effort, speed are two factors and then the last factor is unique to being a pokernetwork and that is trusting those who work on your open source. Wikipedia which is not about money there are a lot of people just messing with it, but because there are millions of others checking it this is usually easily overcome. When your group of dedicated open source users is limited (like I said the fact that it is only programmers who can work on it is a huge limitation vs something like a wiki) it is also easier for someone with bad intentions not to fix a security hole but instead abuse it. The stories of people abusing irregularities, agreements or flat out trying to scam in this industry are incredibly high and are not something to be taken lightly. Any financial sector will have a huge amount of people trying to take advantages of the way things work and poker is no different. In fact with the gambling aspect added to it it is probably one of the most sensitive industries to people ignoring morals and choosing to do only that which is good for themselves.
sir, with all due respect, that is why they need your and the community's support. your experience, know-how and suggestions or whatever you can offer are needed to make this a success.
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
On December 16 2010 08:20 Ket wrote:
I think it's pretty amazing the effort genjix, jchysk and others involved seem to be putting into something like this for alturistic goals and ideals. Having been a poker player as long as I have, it's almost unheard of to me for there to be people out there putting time and effort into something for reasons other than chasing personal gain. Even if you don't think it's going to work or question the ideals they're motivated by (that poker sites are charging too much at lowstakes etc) you still have to admit it's v admirable there are people doing this.
Quick question, is Bitcoin the only form of handling money/keeping score being considered at this stage? One way I would like to use an open source poker server + client software if it existed would be to set up private 'home' games with players I trust, where funds transfer between losers and winners would be handled by the players themselves afterwards, say by full tilt transfer or something. The way I imagine it would go something like, I challenge my friend to a rake-free $5/10 HU 4tabling grudge/sparring match. I get the open source poker server running and use the server admin panel to create two user accounts on the server, one for me and one for my friend. I use the admin panel to set the cashier balances of both our accounts to 10k virtual monies. Somehow there's full transparency of server admin actions like making accounts and manually changing balances so that any user logged into a user account can see a list of all admin actions to see nothing shady is going on etc. Now my friend and I both get the open source client running and make it connect to the server I have running and we log into our accounts where we each have 10k virtual monies in our cashiers to start off with. Now we play the match and it works just as youd expect this software to work, most of it happens server side and the client just does what the client should. At the end of the match I've lost 8k to my friend and say gg and decide to quit bc im a fish. We check our balances using the cashier button on the client to confirm the final tally and I send him what I owe him over full tilt transfer or bank wire or I.O.U note or food stamps or whatever else we agreed on. Then later on I import the HHs from the match into HEM to review them because the awesome opensource software also recorded all the HHs on my computer in the standard HEM format.
why not play play money on PS?
no HU tables. Show me a site with play money HU PLO or HU anything for that matter, and I will be happy On ps try to start a play money table 2handed and it will insta fill up with a constant flow of play moneyers
On December 16 2010 08:20 Ket wrote:
I think it's pretty amazing the effort genjix, jchysk and others involved seem to be putting into something like this for alturistic goals and ideals. Having been a poker player as long as I have, it's almost unheard of to me for there to be people out there putting time and effort into something for reasons other than chasing personal gain. Even if you don't think it's going to work or question the ideals they're motivated by (that poker sites are charging too much at lowstakes etc) you still have to admit it's v admirable there are people doing this.
Quick question, is Bitcoin the only form of handling money/keeping score being considered at this stage? One way I would like to use an open source poker server + client software if it existed would be to set up private 'home' games with players I trust, where funds transfer between losers and winners would be handled by the players themselves afterwards, say by full tilt transfer or something. The way I imagine it would go something like, I challenge my friend to a rake-free $5/10 HU 4tabling grudge/sparring match. I get the open source poker server running and use the server admin panel to create two user accounts on the server, one for me and one for my friend. I use the admin panel to set the cashier balances of both our accounts to 10k virtual monies. Somehow there's full transparency of server admin actions like making accounts and manually changing balances so that any user logged into a user account can see a list of all admin actions to see nothing shady is going on etc. Now my friend and I both get the open source client running and make it connect to the server I have running and we log into our accounts where we each have 10k virtual monies in our cashiers to start off with. Now we play the match and it works just as youd expect this software to work, most of it happens server side and the client just does what the client should. At the end of the match I've lost 8k to my friend and say gg and decide to quit bc im a fish. We check our balances using the cashier button on the client to confirm the final tally and I send him what I owe him over full tilt transfer or bank wire or I.O.U note or food stamps or whatever else we agreed on. Then later on I import the HHs from the match into HEM to review them because the awesome opensource software also recorded all the HHs on my computer in the standard HEM format.
why not play play money on PS?
no HU tables. Show me a site with play money HU PLO or HU anything for that matter, and I will be happy On ps try to start a play money table 2handed and it will insta fill up with a constant flow of play moneyers
Quality poster.
There are about 50 NLHU Play money tables that I'm looking at right now, they have been there for years.
No Omaha HU's sadly, maybe we should start mass pm-ing PokerStars as I would love to be able to homegame my family member rake free in Omaha.
I always laugh when I hear this idea because every mass grinder out there has had his eureka moment when he checks his PTR/HEM and sees that he's paid 500$ in rake for the day. Then every poker player has the genius idea that a rake-free site would be totally awesome. Then 99.99% of players realize how hard it would be to start a company and go back to mindlessly grinding.
In my opinion this project is totally managed the wrong way and that's what happens when you have technical people working on it. The issues discussed are implementation specific and people are arguing about the merits of bitcoin and such. The main difficulties of this project are legal, marketing, and security.
Here is one easy challenges I have come up with:
1) If pokerstars went rake free for new users for the first year, how would your network survive?
2) If pokerstars went rake free for cash games, how would your network survive?
Basically my challenge here is that your only unique quality is rake-free, but pokerstars can easily do this and still make a profit.
If this site gets 1% of the world poker traffic you may consider it a big success, and there is no way PokerStars is going to adjust a single thing for such a small network. If somehow this network became popular enough for PokerStars to go rake free for cashgames, everybody including the creators of the network would celebrate I assume, because PokerStars adjusting their rake is even better than offering it on a separate network.
You almost twin-caracked his AK - JonnyCosmo
1
Syntax United States. Dec 16 2010 12:11. Posts 4415
On December 16 2010 10:50 royalsu wrote:
Here is one easy challenges I have come up with:
1) If pokerstars went rake free for new users for the first year, how would your network survive?
2) If pokerstars went rake free for cash games, how would your network survive?
Basically my challenge here is that your only unique quality is rake-free, but pokerstars can easily do this and still make a profit.
wut.
Then GG! We now pay 0% rake because of this competing open-source software that was created! Job well done
wut wut wut
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jchysk United States. Dec 16 2010 12:14. Posts 435
On December 16 2010 10:50 royalsu wrote:1) If pokerstars went rake free for new users for the first year, how would your network survive?
2) If pokerstars went rake free for cash games, how would your network survive?
Declare victory. Mission accomplished.
Basically my challenge here is that your only unique quality is rake-free, but pokerstars can easily do this and still make a profit.
Rake-free
Unbreakable security using GPG for logins and SSL for connections.
No tracking sites like PokerTableRatings.
Built-in PokerStove
Instant Cash-Outs
Auto-fold
Customise look
Build own clients. Maybe themed for your own room.
Integrated HUD.
Keyboard shortcuts.
Phone apps
International.
No VPP milestone chasing = no multitabling FPP robots. Encourages proper Poker play concentrating on playing well rather than earning rakeback.
The unique quality isn't rake free, because I'm sure rooms will open up based on this software that will not be rake-free. The unique quality to begin with will be superior software. At the end of the day it's just a movement in a positive direction for the poker community.
w00t
1
WRAWRAWRAWRA United States. Dec 16 2010 12:16. Posts 39
On December 16 2010 10:50 royalsu wrote:
I always laugh when I hear this idea because every mass grinder out there has had his eureka moment when he checks his PTR/HEM and sees that he's paid 500$ in rake for the day. Then every poker player has the genius idea that a rake-free site would be totally awesome. Then 99.99% of players realize how hard it would be to start a company and go back to mindlessly grinding.
In my opinion this project is totally managed the wrong way and that's what happens when you have technical people working on it. The issues discussed are implementation specific and people are arguing about the merits of bitcoin and such. The main difficulties of this project are legal, marketing, and security.
Here is one easy challenges I have come up with:
1) If pokerstars went rake free for new users for the first year, how would your network survive?
2) If pokerstars went rake free for cash games, how would your network survive?
Basically my challenge here is that your only unique quality is rake-free, but pokerstars can easily do this and still make a profit.
then the website would have accomplished its goal and everyone would be happy. unfortunately, PS would never do this because this website would never be considered a threat/competitor.
KENYAN LIONS WHAT I DO NOW?!?!?!
1
jchysk United States. Dec 16 2010 12:26. Posts 435
On December 16 2010 08:20 Ket wrote:
I think it's pretty amazing the effort genjix, jchysk and others involved seem to be putting into something like this for alturistic goals and ideals. Having been a poker player as long as I have, it's almost unheard of to me for there to be people out there putting time and effort into something for reasons other than chasing personal gain. Even if you don't think it's going to work or question the ideals they're motivated by (that poker sites are charging too much at lowstakes etc) you still have to admit it's v admirable there are people doing this.
Quick question, is Bitcoin the only form of handling money/keeping score being considered at this stage? One way I would like to use an open source poker server + client software if it existed would be to set up private 'home' games with players I trust, where funds transfer between losers and winners would be handled by the players themselves afterwards, say by full tilt transfer or something. The way I imagine it would go something like, I challenge my friend to a rake-free $5/10 HU 4tabling grudge/sparring match. I get the open source poker server running and use the server admin panel to create two user accounts on the server, one for me and one for my friend. I use the admin panel to set the cashier balances of both our accounts to 10k virtual monies. Somehow there's full transparency of server admin actions like making accounts and manually changing balances so that any user logged into a user account can see a list of all admin actions to see nothing shady is going on etc. Now my friend and I both get the open source client running and make it connect to the server I have running and we log into our accounts where we each have 10k virtual monies in our cashiers to start off with. Now we play the match and it works just as youd expect this software to work, most of it happens server side and the client just does what the client should. At the end of the match I've lost 8k to my friend and say gg and decide to quit bc im a fish. We check our balances using the cashier button on the client to confirm the final tally and I send him what I owe him over full tilt transfer or bank wire or I.O.U note or food stamps or whatever else we agreed on. Then later on I import the HHs from the match into HEM to review them because the awesome opensource software also recorded all the HHs on my computer in the standard HEM format.
Great idea. We actually can already do this since that's the way it's set up for testing, but to allows users to easily do it themselves I now realize has it's uses as well.
I cant believe some people might think this will work. Imo this only shows that people taking part in this are completetly unaware of the situation on poker market.
Not trying to be offensive, but this is just not gonna happen.
Again, the immediate goal shouldn't be to take down PS or FTP...because that's damned near impossible. Even if though has a small chance of tangible success, it is still +EV for many reasons...
Last edit: 16/12/2010 13:18
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jchysk United States. Dec 16 2010 13:47. Posts 435
Combined, I've paid tens of thousands in rake to FTP, PS, and all the other sites I've played on over the years over the couple million hands I've played. It's not like I'm against the use of their services. I think Pokerstars is a great site and they have fantastic support. For me this project isn't about reducing the rake, that's just a positive side effect. For me, it's a fun project to improve the software and get together with like minded individuals to create something of our own for the community. I'm sure the other developers have their own personal reasons whether it's because they hate rake, hate the existing sites, enjoy coding, or maybe have some larger picture goals of shaping the industry. If this project never moves to the level where people are playing mid to high stakes or doesn't get a huge volume of players it doesn't mean it's not considered a success to some of us. We would like to make it open to anyone who wants to be involved and honestly, we're not trying to hurt anybody.
w00t
1
shlade7 United States. Dec 16 2010 14:31. Posts 30
"THIS IS OLD. We've dropped the photoshop-style windows in a big window and the sidebar, in favour of just a normal Poker room windows with chatbox. It's not connected to the server atm- just a pretty looking dummy... coming soon!"
Linux has been used since forever for servers by companies and the only reason it took that long because people did not support it or even give it a chance. the whole thing couldve died as well if not for people joiining in the community to try it out and give suggestions to make it better. it is a perfect model to use an example because every other open source project out there started out as an IDEA for an alternative to the current status quo (usually make it cheaper, more secure and provide people a product which is just as good or even better) that's what open source is all about and linux is not the only example, but there are hundreds of other products out there which are just not recognized but does serve it's purpose well but is just not getting the attention.
The project will last as long as the people behind it are there, it wont be gone just because there's no support or funding, but if people actually care to have rake-free poker as an alternative similar to what Linux has become, then i suggest you help out because now that the idea/project is out there, even if genjix quits or not, someone other group of people have seen it and will pick the project up anyhow. im just happy its out there an even linux did not have this much interest nor support in its early stages of development(from people who didnt even code or use servers). Here the community (poker players and coders who are interested to help out) is even broader to give assistance in financial, code and overall conceptualizing how to help make it better.
Ok you guys have a point. Stars lowering rake means you win. My point was just to show how they could crush you for a year of no rake ness (or a month) and then go back to rake. Lowering prices to kill off competition is so common.
How about this one: the reason people play tournaments is for big payouts and big fields. Pokerstars achieves this through spending millions of dollars in sponsorships and putting overlay into tournaments (guaranteed 50k). How does your site build such a user base?
Regarding whamm: that's totally my point in this thread. Why are you even debating linux? How does that have anything to do with a successful poker site?
Here's my challenge to you guys and let me play devil's advocate here. If you had to pitch your site in 30 seconds to your girlfriend, how would you do it? Hint: is rake really the killer hook?
I think if you guys want to invest your time then it's better to come up with more creative ideas then rake-free ness and "autofold". Think about RUSH poker from fulltilt. Look at how that prevents collusion, makes HEM less useful, etc. This is a move on their part that helps the fish out by equalling the field. Or the Loose Cannon/Couch cannon concept from Stars.
Your goal should be to creatively imagine ideas that would make fish want to play, and not the grinders out there. For example what about sound chat? Or video conference poker playing where you see your opponents and can ask: "are you bluffing?".
Rake is not the only thing here, do you know the possibilities of this if handled and supported well? imagine having your buyins as your br and you reload from your wallet real time, as opposed to having your entire 50kusd on the site? how fucking awesome, safe and secure would that be? with open source it is limitless really, depends how far you want to take it. and with regards to linux talk its been "pefect" after a couple years after it started, improving and adding more features takes more time, its a process obv, Theres also phpbb , an open source platform for forum boards, which is the core for almost every forum platform out there right now. vbulletin, smf, mybb, etc - the industry is run by communities and is one of the most successful models out there, basic forums are free, if you want bells and whistles, you pay for addons but the core is being improved and addons are built in periodically.
open source is just a put off for some because admittedly most programs out there which do the job but doesnt present it through advertising and awesome looking websites make it look shady and dodgy.
online poker is a piece of code. nothing more. live poker is different more expensive to run, they pay taxes but they make a lot less money than online rooms. that is really what this whole thing is all about.
It's advertising and awesome looking websites that make it look shady and dodgy.
You seem to be confused on what the target audience is supposed to be here...
Invertible from 2p2 wrote:
Next point is, are you sure having a 100% rake free room is the best business model. To attract fish you need a well built platform and good advertising which all cost $$$$. No fish, no poker room
Or even better
hepzebah from 2p2 wrote:
You can sing this. Like 2+2 the community will be populated with regs not losers. The payment methods will be usable by regs not losers. The site will appear trustworthy to regs not losers.
So why will regs play there?
On February 19 2009 22:21 Confedrate wrote: i dont get it
Last edit: 16/12/2010 20:41
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Gadget United States. Dec 16 2010 20:39. Posts 295
Can I just transfer genjix money on Full tilt directly or do I have to go through this whole process of depositing to that site before he takes my money?
On December 16 2010 17:34 royalsu wrote:
Regarding whamm: that's totally my point in this thread. Why are you even debating linux? How does that have anything to do with a successful poker site?
Here's my challenge to you guys and let me play devil's advocate here. If you had to pitch your site in 30 seconds to your girlfriend, how would you do it? Hint: is rake really the killer hook?
imagine pokerstars, ftp.. etc.. etc.. as these "big casinos". in those "big casinos", you get fpp pros, rake back pros, those solid grinders. now, sometimes you just wanna play poker with your friends, have fun and relax. where do you go? to a "home game", where poker is pure, fun and the way it should be. so you get your bit coin... log in that "home game" site without rake, play for a few hours then withdraw and log out.
so the whole idea of this site is just to give you an alternative away from the big corporations exploiting us . this site isn't only about poker... it's a movement to free the game we love to play.
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
too tired to explain why fish will play and new types of players will be curious, i will just try help the team with whatever ideas i can come up with. the good thing with open source projects is that it only becomes a failure when the core team who conceptualized it die or decide to shelf it, and even then alot of passionate ppl who find the project viable will pick it up and develop it. anyway good luck and if this works out itll be better for everyone im sure.
even if the core team who started it "retires", it can still continue if interested coders around the world still tweak/fix/improve the source code. it is just a matter of awareness and interest for the project. hence in open source the community "owns" the software.
it's like "by the people for the people" kind of movement.
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
On December 16 2010 17:34 royalsu wrote:
Regarding whamm: that's totally my point in this thread. Why are you even debating linux? How does that have anything to do with a successful poker site?
Here's my challenge to you guys and let me play devil's advocate here. If you had to pitch your site in 30 seconds to your girlfriend, how would you do it? Hint: is rake really the killer hook?
imagine pokerstars, ftp.. etc.. etc.. as these "big casinos". in those "big casinos", you get fpp pros, rake back pros, those solid grinders. now, sometimes you just wanna play poker with your friends, have fun and relax. where do you go? to a "home game", where poker is pure, fun and the way it should be. so you get your bit coin... log in that "home game" site without rake, play for a few hours then withdraw and log out.
so the whole idea of this site is just to give you an alternative away from the big corporations exploiting us . this site isn't only about poker... it's a movement to free the game we love to play.
I think something which already has been done and is a much better idea is facebook poker. You just piggy back off of the existing ecosystem to build a huge user base (34 million monthly active users according to them). I'm sure they will try to get facebook credits soon if that's allowed legally. But just notice how inferior the software is to stars, the lack of features like multitabling, the lack of a HEM, the lack of autofold, etc, etc... and they have 34 million users. You guys are targeting how many users?
On December 16 2010 17:34 royalsu wrote:
Regarding whamm: that's totally my point in this thread. Why are you even debating linux? How does that have anything to do with a successful poker site?
Here's my challenge to you guys and let me play devil's advocate here. If you had to pitch your site in 30 seconds to your girlfriend, how would you do it? Hint: is rake really the killer hook?
imagine pokerstars, ftp.. etc.. etc.. as these "big casinos". in those "big casinos", you get fpp pros, rake back pros, those solid grinders. now, sometimes you just wanna play poker with your friends, have fun and relax. where do you go? to a "home game", where poker is pure, fun and the way it should be. so you get your bit coin... log in that "home game" site without rake, play for a few hours then withdraw and log out.
so the whole idea of this site is just to give you an alternative away from the big corporations exploiting us . this site isn't only about poker... it's a movement to free the game we love to play.
I think something which already has been done and is a much better idea is facebook poker. You just piggy back off of the existing ecosystem to build a huge user base (34 million monthly active users according to them). I'm sure they will try to get facebook credits soon if that's allowed legally. But just notice how inferior the software is to stars, the lack of features like multitabling, the lack of a HEM, the lack of autofold, etc, etc... and they have 34 million users. You guys are targeting how many users?
facebook poker aint open source. it's just.... poker. lol. there's nothing political behind it. the reason i am so enthusiastic about this project is because it carries the open source philosophy. otherwise if the makers of this were in it just to make money then they are no better than the sites that belong to obscure networks like the "action network".
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
0
WhereDaHoneyz United States. Dec 17 2010 04:18. Posts 29
Many questions or thing's people ask here are found on the site,
Wouldn't LPers like to play on LiquidPoker Poker? Imagine if the internet just consisted of facebook and myspace- that's like the Poker sites now. Kind of boring. Try to frame it in that way.
It's like when you try explain how we rely on technology fundamentally in everyday lives, and how free software grants you freedom when some guy is screaming down your ear about low cost means low quality. By focusing on the low-rake you're missing the point. The point is that any of you can make a Poker room. You can hook it up to whatever payment processor you want- macaroni and gummi bears for all I care and charge 99% rake. But you have to win out by competing, not maintaining a market monopoly.
Pretty soon you are going to be banned from Poker like the Turkish, French, Italians and South Africans. Government has found a new arena (the internet) to start swinging their dick around, feeling manly with their new sense of power. The only way to protect ourselves is to diversify. I'll leave you with a quote from Wikileaks cable 10RPODUBAI13 by an American diplomat reporting on the 2010 Iranian protests:
The GPO has promulgated a new mode of oppositionist organization for Iran. Anecdotal evidence indicates that GPO leaders, especially Mousavi, have from the start favored a horizontal, diffuse, decentralized GPO structure as opposed to a more hierarchical one. Indeed, part of the GPO's resilience stems from this defuse and decentralized nature, frustrating a regime that has come to rely on the two-step of identifying and decapitating leadership as its main tool for extinguishing dissent.
0
WhereDaHoneyz United States. Dec 17 2010 04:27. Posts 29
btw I am suspicious of 2+2. A mod there has been PM'ing me really suspicious questions:
>Please let me know the usernames of your other accounts here, banned and current.
>In that case, where are you located?
>I was checking your IP addresses for matches
(why is he checking my IP address?)
>Where in XXX? Where have you been and posted at 2+2 from?
Seems a bit too creepy for my liking. And the mods in that thread have been attacking me subtly insinuating I'm a scammer and now a spammer. Baal, is my tinfoil hat on properly?
On December 17 2010 03:27 WhereDaHoneyz wrote:
btw I am suspicious of 2+2. A mod there has been PM'ing me really suspicious questions:
>Please let me know the usernames of your other accounts here, banned and current. You're probably not allowed to multiaccount. That's why he's asking.
>In that case, where are you located? Stop giving out fake locations for your stupid multiaccounts
>I was checking your IP addresses for matches
(why is he checking my IP address?) Because your multiaccounts sets off gazillijon flags
Seems a bit too creepy for my liking. And the mods in that thread have been attacking me subtly insinuating I'm a scammer and now a spammer. Baal, is my tinfoil hat on properly?
My username here is lucifer my location is sweden.
This is my only account on this site.
*gasp* That was hard. I must have dropped my hat.
On December 17 2010 03:18 WhereDaHoneyz wrote:
Wouldn't LPers like to play on LiquidPoker Poker?
Imagine if the internet just consisted of facebook and myspace- that's like the Poker sites now. Kind of AWESOME shame it isn't true...
Maybe. If none of the decent members played there. Which leads us back to the no fish no regs wtf no munnies u srs? The appeal for this is what Ket wrote. (game with people you know, deal with the money irl etc.)
I also fixed your second statement.
On February 19 2009 22:21 Confedrate wrote: i dont get it
Last edit: 17/12/2010 08:26
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casinocasino Canada. Dec 17 2010 08:54. Posts 3343
yeah the only way this is going to succeed in the long run is if you can compete with the big 3 in terms of traffic, security and affiliations. If you were to get a training site or some semi famous pros on board and some money backing this idea, it would probably have a better chance. that's my opinion on where the next step should be after the software is written. If you can create the image that this has a chance to compete with the big 3, it may succeed.
NeillyJQ: I really wanted to prove to myself I could beat NL200, I did over a small sample, and believe Ill be crushing there in the future.
1
shlade7 United States. Dec 17 2010 10:25. Posts 30
On December 17 2010 08:03 Zep wrote:
yeah the only way this is going to succeed in the long run is if you can compete with the big 3 in terms of traffic, security and affiliations. If you were to get a training site or some semi famous pros on board and some money backing this idea, it would probably have a better chance. that's my opinion on where the next step should be after the software is written. If you can create the image that this has a chance to compete with the big 3, it may succeed.
Succeed in what? If at the end of all this you can start up your own site and have a game with your friends or if you can login to an existing network and there's a dozen tables going that you can choose to sit down at for a little while and play this project will be a major success.
If an individual or company decides to use the software to build a major site, put millions into marketing and support and actually try to take a decent share of the market then that's their own project but we'll be happy that someone is using the software to expand the options in the community.
0
WhereDaHoneyz United States. Dec 17 2010 12:51. Posts 29
We need testers. If there's a 10% chance this succeeds that is +EV. The more testers, the faster we can move. PM me these details:
Name
Available times
Email
Other contact methods
Preferred contact method
Notes (other skills, require advance notice, ...)
Willing to playtest?
And you'll be added to the report sheet.
Lots of people have different schedules. More people makes it easier to pick out 4 people with a shared schedule. Thanks
On December 17 2010 08:03 Zep wrote:
yeah the only way this is going to succeed in the long run is if you can compete with the big 3 in terms of traffic, security and affiliations. If you were to get a training site or some semi famous pros on board and some money backing this idea, it would probably have a better chance. that's my opinion on where the next step should be after the software is written. If you can create the image that this has a chance to compete with the big 3, it may succeed.
it's not the only way to succeed. this project succeeds if a lot of coders from the community takes part in this project and continues to improve/develop the source code. the more coders taking interest in this the better. they guys who started this are all about making good software...
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
In my personal opinion the rake/no-rake feature should be opt-in/opt-out - so that you can either pay a monthly fee or regular rake. this would be a good "for profit" way of making money - the fish would be raked, but not the regulars.
the difficult part with the idea is attracting newbies/fish - I've seen people who have deposited thousands and raked only hundreds. those guys are not happy with their "rakeback/bonuses" and ask for something extra just based on their deposits. those big "Whales" who make profits for some of the high-stake pros receive gifts such as tournament entries and cash based on ... little or no rake.
the vip program and the distribution of the wealth in the regular for profit companies keeps the fish coming. you have advertising, addition of bonuses and cash and so on. also customer support, which is quite quite important.
furthermore, there are the trasnaction teams who should have access to some banking details... unless those people are signed by a corporation, they would be able to abuse the system.
it is really toooo difficult to run a proper poker room, once you think about it, you can write several pages which stuff which can go wrong...
heres a suggestion for the team who are developing this, give players (who believe and are open to the idea) a working model to try, beans, bitcoin, shekels, it doesnt matter. if all people have to appreciate is walls and walls of text on open souce philosphies and arguments about how great it will be, im afraid ppl will just lose interest more -Worry about fish and processors, currencies later. personally i believe in the idea and im sure a lot of others do as well. just give ppl something to try. you cannot convince people who've already made up their minds at this point not to have faith in the project. im in 100%, but just my 2cents about this whole thing.
Last edit: 17/12/2010 20:54
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WhereDaHoneyz United States. Dec 17 2010 22:19. Posts 29
We need testers.
Name
Available times
Email
Other contact methods
Preferred contact method
Notes (other skills, require advance notice, ...)
Willing to playtest?
And you'll be added to the report sheet.
Lots of people have different schedules. More people makes it easier to pick out 4 people with a shared schedule. Thanks
Steal City United States. Dec 18 2010 12:08. Posts 2537
On December 16 2010 11:10 Nazgul wrote:
If this site gets 1% of the world poker traffic you may consider it a big success, and there is no way PokerStars is going to adjust a single thing for such a small network. If somehow this network became popular enough for PokerStars to go rake free for cashgames, everybody including the creators of the network would celebrate I assume, because PokerStars adjusting their rake is even better than offering it on a separate network.
i don't think you or defrag get it. If it gets 0.01% of the market that may be enough for PS and FTP to have to adjust. The site solely needs some 2nl traffic such that potential would-be poker room creators will take the software (remember it's open source) and monetarize it in their own way. Since they will need to publish their code to use the open source software, it could very quickly be just as good software as FTP and PS. The businesses that start up using this software may charge as much or even more than PS/FTP... the whole point is that sooner, rather than later, the loss of this huge barrier-to-entry will bring about competitive rake
Steal City, I work for liquidpoker and run tlpoker.pl for quite some time already and there is absolutetly no way this has any slighlest chance of sucess ( my opinion obviously, based on my experience and the fact that I know how poker rooms / affiliates operate). No offence but telling Nazgul, who runs a site of that scale that he doesnt get it is pretty ignorant.
If you would put in few millions into this, I think it MIGHT have reach enough traffic for PS/FTP to make a slight adjustment ( or just use their lawyers to finish the site ).
I seriously dont want to go into details since I would have to point out ton of stuff that would take me like an hour to write if I wanted a detailed post.
@Genjix
You're writing code for a commercial site, www.bitcoinvegas.com You are a part-owner of the site. Your business plan is to not charge rake, but rather charge players for various premiums and extras. You want 2p2'ers to help, and eventually play there. That's the bottom line, and that's a very different story than the one that was presented in the OP.
@Genjix
You're writing code for a commercial site, www.bitcoinvegas.com You are a part-owner of the site. Your business plan is to not charge rake, but rather charge players for various premiums and extras. You want 2p2'ers to help, and eventually play there. That's the bottom line, and that's a very different story than the one that was presented in the OP.
that guy is spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt. i bet he is jealous he didn't think of the idea first. or maybe he did... but didn't act on it.
then he sees this project. that guy, whoever he is might be working for pokerstars for all we know... or maybe just a bored nerd trying to derail the thread just cos he doesn't believe in the idea.
i mean it's cool to debate... but these are really offensive attacks. why would he do that? we're not harming anybody...
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
@Genjix
You're writing code for a commercial site, www.bitcoinvegas.com You are a part-owner of the site. Your business plan is to not charge rake, but rather charge players for various premiums and extras. You want 2p2'ers to help, and eventually play there. That's the bottom line, and that's a very different story than the one that was presented in the OP.
that guy is spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt. i bet he is jealous he didn't think of the idea first. or maybe he did... but didn't act on it.
then he sees this project. that guy, whoever he is might be working for pokerstars for all we know... or maybe just a bored nerd trying to derail the thread just cos he doesn't believe in the idea.
i mean it's cool to debate... but these are really offensive attacks. why would he do that? we're not harming anybody...
Why is that? I think he raised a valid concern: whole idea of rake-free poker room is being presented as a non-profit, as facts flowing in show that there can be indeed some financial motivation.
I also see no reason why he would be jealous if the idea is supposed to be non-profit, and the poker room is going to be based on the support of community?
You have to understand if you want the project to have the slighest chance of success people taking care of the initial launch and promotion have to be crystal clear and answer every question that might raise a doubt. In the end you are asking people to deposit real $ on your site.
On December 18 2010 18:07 Helmet wrote:
those are not facts. those are assumptions and accusations.
What about blog post with offer to sell/buy the currency ( at rates on which Genjix would profit ) and his posts at bitcoin forum?
You have to understand, if you want to run a poker room, you have to answer all those concerns.
The creators of the project understand that people are paying insane fees to poker rooms like PokerStars/FTP due to the level of security they are offering ( not only, but obviously it's a big part of the deal ). Replying simply "'those are just accusations taken out of nowhere, so not worth answering" is not going to make it happen, when you are trying to build reputation for people to trust you with their hard earned cash.
Last edit: 18/12/2010 19:16
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WhereDaHoneyz United States. Dec 18 2010 19:23. Posts 29
eh? why can't I trade currency? free market ftw.
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WhereDaHoneyz United States. Dec 18 2010 19:32. Posts 29
On December 18 2010 18:23 WhereDaHoneyz wrote:
eh? why can't I trade currency? free market ftw.
Because you are responsible for the project and presented it as a non-profit in the first place.
With the mentioned blog post, aggressive answers to posts raising valid concerns ( like threatening to sue for libel @ 2p2 ) and other posts at bitcoin forum where you offered to buy bitcoin cash roughly month ago at half the prize you are offering to sell now at your blog, it makes me wonder if I would trust you and your poker room with my money and if your actions are honest.
As I said above, you are responsible for the reputation of the project, and without solid one this will never have a slightest chance of work, despite how good the idea/software may be.
Last edit: 18/12/2010 19:36
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WhereDaHoneyz United States. Dec 18 2010 19:56. Posts 29
i didn't threaten to sue for libel. That was someone else. I don't control what people do. They are free to behave however they want.
And trading bitcoins? I AM trading bitcoins, not our project. Me =/= project. we are a team. Also, if you check, http://bitcoinwatch.com/ then you'll see my prices are very reasonable.
you make it sound as though doing business is a dirty bad thing.
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WhereDaHoneyz United States. Dec 18 2010 20:02. Posts 29
anyway this is my last post on any forum. We are super busy, and I've said a few times already that I won't be posting anymore. However each time someone makes a personal attack accusing me of being a scammer or in it for the money, getting me to respond. The information is out there on google, so just make up your own minds.
hmm running an affiliate site is for commercial poker platfroms obviously. i know how it works, cpa, revshares, rakeback what have you. its part of online poker sites promotional expenses. heck i can run my own boss network or ipoker skin whammpoker.com in 3 days if i want to, just get some captial here and it costs around 50kusd which i dont have, but with all these bs government policies its kinda unstable imo. . running a centralized poker site is hard with all the backend, but all you need is money. its not rocket science which requires gazillions, most their expenses do come from affiliate programs, adds,vpp programs and sponsorships in tourneys and live pros salaries and perks etc
Im basing this on how open source works, money wil be made by sites, programmers etc, its just the software base and POKER that will be free. ppl here seem to hate genjix so much because he MIGHT make a couple dollars, and suspect him of a hidden agenda. believe me, genjix wont make money from the POKER system if thats what worries everyone. hes doing this for free FFS.
Heres just a standard list of possibilities where this will be going if ever it takes off and gets support
*software is free, stable, secure(there will be free counterparts to most 3rd party addons, mostly willhave lesser features but there will be some who will give it for free, that is how open source works, some guy charges exorbitant prices for something, some good person feels it should be free and builds a similar if not better and jsut relys on donations
*3rd party addons, like hem integration, video, live chat , tn etc
*if you want br protection systems(buyin real time from your ewallet so no more BR in site) you will have to pay for it
*anti-cheat hack, bot detection stuff
*a zillion other mods, free or not, that will trump any pokerstars setup we have right now
*forum sites like LP develop a client, run its own room, and get all the traffic they have in TL interested in poker (obv TL populace would only trust TL)
* a ton of other stuff, sky is the limit, any idea can be coded, people will make money, decide where they wanna take this
*some 3rd party add-ons wont be free, but you wont need it if just wanted to play poker, FISH wont need addons, they can dl the client, load up a server list and play. people like us, will want the addons like we do with stars.
i feel the group is being pressured to get all this solved before the even finalize a working client which is ridiculous, they want to "start" an Open source poker system for everyone, and theyre getting shit for it. please before ppl criticize, try to understand how open source works first.
Don't think for one second if this started working poker site's wouldn't adjust. They have the power of the media and unless you're able to have at least a small share of that yourself, you won't be able to succeed.
NeillyJQ: I really wanted to prove to myself I could beat NL200, I did over a small sample, and believe Ill be crushing there in the future.
a little controversy is always good. thanks defrag. makes things more interesting. but you know those are all lies and accusations. just type away in this thread. like it or not the site is going online.
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
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joLin United States. Dec 19 2010 01:04. Posts 3818
On December 18 2010 22:34 Helmet wrote:
a little controversy is always good. thanks defrag. makes things more interesting. but you know those are all lies and accusations. just type away in this thread. like it or not the site is going online.
not sure whats going on here but your attitude isnt very comforting. i dunno about other ppl but personally i wouldnt put any money on your site.
YoUr_KiLLeR @ TL
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jchysk United States. Dec 19 2010 01:08. Posts 435
On December 18 2010 16:49 Defrag wrote:
Steal City, I work for liquidpoker and run tlpoker.pl for quite some time already and there is absolutetly no way this has any slighlest chance of sucess ( my opinion obviously, based on my experience and the fact that I know how poker rooms / affiliates operate). No offence but telling Nazgul, who runs a site of that scale that he doesnt get it is pretty ignorant.
I have to disagree with you here. I think the software has an extremely high chance of success. The costs to run a base site will be minimal and once the software is decent why wouldn't some companies use it to start their rooms if they're planning on entering into the poker scene? I can definitely even see some completely free non-profit hosted rooms too where a few hundred players are on at any given time from around the world playing. I suppose we'll just have to disagree for now, but we'll keep working and will just have to use all this skepticism as part of the drive to develop something amazing.
w00t
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Steal City United States. Dec 19 2010 03:45. Posts 2537
On December 18 2010 16:49 Defrag wrote:
Steal City, I work for liquidpoker and run tlpoker.pl for quite some time already and there is absolutetly no way this has any slighlest chance of sucess ( my opinion obviously, based on my experience and the fact that I know how poker rooms / affiliates operate). No offence but telling Nazgul, who runs a site of that scale that he doesnt get it is pretty ignorant.
If you would put in few millions into this, I think it MIGHT have reach enough traffic for PS/FTP to make a slight adjustment ( or just use their lawyers to finish the site ).
I seriously dont want to go into details since I would have to point out ton of stuff that would take me like an hour to write if I wanted a detailed post.
please reread what you're responding to
Intersango.com intersango.com
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Steal City United States. Dec 19 2010 03:47. Posts 2537
jchysk, I would just ignore people who are not distinguishing between the site and the software which will lead to other commercialized sites.
On December 18 2010 22:34 Helmet wrote:
a little controversy is always good. thanks defrag. makes things more interesting. but you know those are all lies and accusations. just type away in this thread. like it or not the site is going online.
not sure whats going on here but your attitude isnt very comforting. i dunno about other ppl but personally i wouldnt put any money on your site.
yup. it just shows i do not have any financial interests or plans of making profit from this project. if they kick me out of the team for having a big mouth, sure... i won't take it against them.
People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City
On December 18 2010 16:49 Defrag wrote:
Steal City, I work for liquidpoker and run tlpoker.pl for quite some time already and there is absolutetly no way this has any slighlest chance of sucess ( my opinion obviously, based on my experience and the fact that I know how poker rooms / affiliates operate). No offence but telling Nazgul, who runs a site of that scale that he doesnt get it is pretty ignorant.
If you would put in few millions into this, I think it MIGHT have reach enough traffic for PS/FTP to make a slight adjustment ( or just use their lawyers to finish the site ).
I seriously dont want to go into details since I would have to point out ton of stuff that would take me like an hour to write if I wanted a detailed post.
please reread what you're responding to
Did, and post stands as it is.
Anyway, not going to bother anymore. GL/HF fun with the project.
whamm the reason people are criticizing this idea so hard is because it's a non-sensical way to get rid of rake (i.e a company's profit). How does partypoker get users? Simple. Rake players, then spend a shit load: to the tune of 100 million euros per year to attract new players (leaving 145 million in profits). By making a site rake free you are robbing yourself of the only source of income and hence capital to reinvest in your business. And fat chance advertising is going to compare to rake. This is how every poker site out there makes money. Case counter-example: WSEX tried rake-free, failed to make money, and then went back to rake.
You guys have a non-existent business model for future sites to make money except by saying "software is free". Implied in this statement is that software costs make up a chunk of operating expenses. If you think this is true then go check out partygaming's financial statements.
Finally, the open source project. I think working on projects is good. I just think that your design of features for your project stinks. You guys are designing it based on what a grinder would want: integrated HEM, autofold of hands, etc. Some of these features will totally confuse and overwhelm a random fish with unnecessary information. Do you think the typical poker player thinks like: "His vpip is t% so pokerstoving his range I get x, y, z. His fold to 3bet% is r, therefore the correct mathematical play is to 3bet with my entire range" or is it more like "omg I just got aces, what should I do?". Now I don't know who is on the team but I would suggest looking into getting a UI designer (or a HCI prof to review your prototypes) who will give much better insight into what is important for the interface. For example here is one thing we were shown in design class: on windows machines the menu items are harder to click because each menu button is not flush with the top of the screen. So the target region's area is finite. On Mac's every menu is flush with the top of the screen. You can therefore scroll infinitely upwards and still be on the target menu region. You can easily see the impact of this in the major sites and why we think some interfaces are tilting to multitable. I just think it's naive to think that you can come up with a better interface purely through better features.
Ok you raise some good points about the software, why not tell the team this? Im not part of the team fyi , I simply dont have time for any more poker related stuff atm(but obv im just fond of this site) , but I'm here to help inform people about what I know about open source projects and what in my mind, this can become - trying very hard to be impartial since genjix is a friend of mine whom i never really talked to in like a year now since hes been busy with wikepedia and open source stuff last i heard and kinda quit poker. I am not naive on how the world works or how business is done, what's fascinating about open source is that no one really "owns" it,and unlike its real life counterparts, it CAN succeed and in some cases, even be better than proprietary versions run by big corporations. Just go to forums or attend meetings of the project if you wanna add something , suggest, or give solutions to make the whole thing better. its going to materialize no matter what so debating is kinda useless imo, just help make it better if you care about the possibility of rake free open source poker. cheers
United States. Dec 14 2010 16:48. Posts 12159
. 
Also, if you check, 
