Emelianenko one time ? - Page 4

I think it's obvious that fighting in the heavyweight division is very different than fightin in the middleweight division. You can't compare that shit, it's just stupid. Divisions require different set of skills.

On July 25 2008 07:07 nicksson wrote: bigbb33, are you serious? are you saying that A Silva would beat Fedor at 205? A Silva walks around at 220 pounds and cuts to 185 beacuse he would get destroyed if he fought at heavyweight, while Fedor walks around at 230 and doesn't cut cause he's good enough to beat the heavyweights. Fedor is def the greatest fighter ever

Ya I'm serious.

5:1 is a dumb bet (for the guy paying 500%) not even the betting sites would give those odds, since they gave 4:1 to sylvia

bigbb33 consider this:

in his last 19 fights fedor is 18-0 with 1 no contest. of the 18 wins 15 have been fights he has FINISHED in the first or early 2nd round. the other 3 were unanimous decisions where he dominated crocop once and big nog twice. some of the guys he finished are really good fighters, like heath herring, tim sylvia, kevin randleman, and mark hunt. i didnt even list some of the guys he just stomped like gary goodridge and mark coleman, or guys like fujita who have some impressive wins under their belt.

before those fights he had never lost either except an accidental cut (from an illegal elbow mind you) 17 seconds into a fight in a tournament that needed a victor, and he had beaten some really good fighters like semmy schilt, arona and babalu.

saying fedor isnt the best in the world because you think anderson silva (who mind you fights in probably the weakest division of the sport) would beat him is ludicrous. OMG HE BEAT DAN HENDERSON (who gasses hard at 185 and is really a natural 205) RICH FRANKLIN AND TRAVIS LUTTER OMG OGMOGMOGMOGMOG. wow sick resume dude. everytime silva has gotten into trouble he has lost. everytime fedor has gotten into trouble he doesnt just somehow eek out a victory, he DESTROYS the guy.

you provide no argument except your probably wrong opinion that mini fedor would lose to other fighters. and honestly you wouldnt even have to shrink fedor to make him fight at 205 or maybe even 185. but he doesnt want to cut because he doesnt need to avoid the stronger guys above 205.

On July 25 2008 09:54 Daut wrote: bigbb33 consider this: in his last 19 fights fedor is 18-0 with 1 no contest. of the 18 wins 15 have been fights he has FINISHED in the first or early 2nd round. the other 3 were unanimous decisions where he dominated crocop once and big nog twice. some of the guys he finished are really good fighters, like heath herring, tim sylvia, kevin randleman, and mark hunt. i didnt even list some of the guys he just stomped like gary goodridge and mark coleman, or guys like fujita who have some impressive wins under their belt. saying fedor isnt the best in the world because you think anderson silva (who mind you fights in probably the weakest division of the sport) would beat him is ludicrous. OMG HE BEAT DAN HENDERSON RICH FRANKLIN AND TRAVIS LUTTER OMG OGMOGMOGMOGMOG. wow sick resume dude. you provide no argument except your probably wrong opinion that mini fedor would lose to other fighters. and honestly you wouldnt even have to shrink fedor to make him fight at 205 or maybe even 185. but he doesnt want to cut because he doesnt need to avoid the stronger guys above 205.

Records, in terms of being unbeaten etc don't have as much weight as you are giving them: Diego Sanchez was 14-0 or something at one point, but he's not even in the top 3 in his division.

I'm not saying Fedor isn't the best in the world pound for pound based on my belief that Silva could beat him. My thought process before first posting in this thread was "Okay Fedor beat Silvia: Silvia is a flatfooted wildebeast with no movement, gj Fedor". I thought about who Fedor could face to actually prove something for once (Fedor has always been criticized as building his record vs relatively questionable opponents), but couldn't think of any really good HW fighter, compared to something like the Lightweight or Welterweight which is stacked with tons of skilled guys who all have a shot at beating the champ, ie BJ Penn/St Pierre/there's a list above. From that I concluded that the HW division is itself in a relative lull in terms of skill, and from that Fedor's skill is overhyped. The idea of a 'mini Fedor' is a way to think of the best pound for pound fighters: obv I think that Fedor would demolish St Pierre at their current weights, but shrink Fedor down with a magic laser so that he could retain his proportions but fit into the Welterweight and St Pierre would wreck him, and therefore St Pierre is better pound for pound.

And you provide no argument yourself, except for pointing to an undefeated record which as I stated above doesn't mean that much as there are examples of fighters with great records too who aren't as great as their records indicated. This entire 'debate' can be summed up as that neither side has arguments, just opinions: I think Fedor is overrated due to fighting in a division that is temporarily weak due to whatever random reasons, others think Fedor is the Messiah who shits rainbows and gets blowjobs on command from Chuck Norris. There is no way to settle this beyond waiting: if the HW division's rate of skill improvement is larger than that of other divisions over the next couple of years, then we can say that the HW division is right now weaker relative to what it should be and what other divisions are. That's going to take time, obviously, and right now we are left with opinions, and people thinking that if they yell their copy-pasted-from-sherdog views loud enough they'll be considered right.

no argument? he finishes every fight and has beaten the best fighters and comes back when behind to win very convincingly instead of losing. thats no argument besides record? what the f are you smoking =[


and i disagree. you could argue that 170 is weak. kos was 1 dimensional forever, diego is a record builder, fitch hasnt really fought anyone that good, hughes was over the hill, serra isnt that good. see what im doing?

On July 25 2008 10:12 Daut wrote: no argument? he finishes every fight and has beaten the best fighters. thats no argument besides record? what the f are you smoking =[ and i disagree. you could argue that 170 is weak. kos was 1 dimensional forever, diego is a record builder, fitch hasnt really fought anyone that good, hughes was over the hill, serra isnt that good. see what im doing?

Yeah but you are assuming that the best fighters are actually great too: note that my argument that Fedor is overrated came from the premise that the HW division is itself in a relative lull, so saying he beat some guys in that division who were amazing is only a good argument if you can justify that those beaten guys were amazing. That's what I disagree with.

But yeah you can argue a lot of things. We are arguing different sides with no effective way of coming to a verifiable conclusion with who is right without letting a long time pass and seeing the results.

your argument is mainly based on the fact that you think the HW division is weak but most people seem to think 185 is the weakest division in the sport.

My point of view is kinda like this:

Say you have 4 different divisions of chess players, 10 players to a division. Player skill is rated with the ELO rating system.

Division 1 through 3 has the top 30 chessplayers in the world randomly split up into them. Division 4 has a group of 12 year olds with one player who is 22 years old and ranked 70th in the world. If each player plays 100 games, and they only play against players in their division, their ELO rating will reflect their skill as variance is evened out over the sample. You are going to find comparable absolute ELO numbers in each group. The 70th ranked player in the world, who is in the 12 year old division, is going to have a very high ELO rating of all the players in any division. From that can we conclude that the 70th ranked player in the world is in fact the best player of all the divisions? He has the highest ELO. Obviously I gave you the info at the start so you know his division is ridic. weak compared to other divisions, so no we can't conclude that. His rating is not an absolute reflection of his skill but rather a reflection of his skill relative to his divisional opponents. In order to establish his skill, you first have to establish his divisional opponents skill.

Obviously this is an analogy, and Fedor is the 70th ranked player in the world and the division stacked with 12 year olds is the HW division. The ELO rating corresponds to a fighters record. Obviously there's a ridic. amount of hyperbole being used, but that's to get the point across. Using the analogy, what if we don't know the absolute skill of each player in each division? What if it was a random draw, that just happened to create such a lopsided mix? What if the 12 year olds weren't so visually obviously weak players? That's kind of where we are with the HW division relative to other divsions. We don't know. I'm saying that the HW division IS at a relative lull right now due to whatever reasons, and from that it's best fighter is therefore also overrated. And that's Fedor. As stated there's no real way to objectively conclude who is right without waiting and seeing the relative skill improvements: think back to the chess analogy, as players come and go the weak division will increase in skill much faster relative to the other divisions, and so we could conclude that it was at a relative lull in skill and therefore it's best player was overrated. Or that could not happen and it could turn out that that division was as distributed in skill as the other divisions. Time will tell with respect to MMA.

On July 25 2008 10:23 Daut wrote: your argument is mainly based on the fact that you think the HW division is weak but most people seem to think 185 is the weakest division in the sport.

Most people voted for George W. Bush. Twice.

Also I used Welterweight/Lightweight as my divisions that I said were relatively higher in skill than Heavyweight. Anderson Silva came up as another, somewhat related topic.

the strength of the 185 division is basically the only thing that matters here since you are comparing fedor to anderson silva.

anderson silva has beaten up on weak 185s, a guy who moved down to 185 from 205 and wasnt 100% and beat up a not even top 10 205. wow. i claim in his actual size division (considering he is bigger than most of the 205s to begin with) he would lose to machida, shogun at top form, rampage, wandy, liddell, forrest and henderson at his natural weight. hes just benefiting from fighting weaker fighters at the weakest division and getting lucky to face guys out of their comfort zone.

On July 25 2008 10:43 Daut wrote: the strength of the 185 division is basically the only thing that matters here since you are comparing fedor to anderson silva. anderson silva has beaten up on weak 185s, a guy who moved down to 185 from 205 and wasnt 100% and beat up a not even top 10 205. wow. i claim in his actual size division (considering he is bigger than most of the 205s to begin with) he would lose to machida, shogun at top form, rampage, wandy, liddell, forrest and henderson at his natural weight. hes just benefiting from fighting weaker fighters at the weakest division and getting lucky to face guys out of their comfort zone.

Well there are two different but somewhat related positions I've taken in this thread: the first that Fedor is overrated as a pound for pound fighter due to fighting in a relatively weak HW division, and the second that Silva would beat Fedor at 205.

What do you mean weakest division? He cleaned up MW and is now fighting at LHW, where he just first punch KO'd (essentially a KO) his first opponent. This is the second division he's fighting in. He's grown as a fighter and we'll see how he does at 205: my contention is obviously that he'll own it, yours that he's overrated and has to fight lower to win. Your argument really doesn't make sense: you are saying Silva would lose a hypothetical fight because he'd also lose hypothetical fights? That's no better than the opposite argument, that he'd win a hypothetical fight vs Fedor because he'd win hypothetical fights vs Forrest and the rest of LHW.

who says i was arguing what he would do vs fedor, why are you making all these logical jumps in my argument and making stuff up and taking out stuff i say?

you are being really stubborn/retarded and you are basically just saying something that is totally exaggerated. everyone understands your point but you are doing a horrible job of presenting it and out of spite just exagerrating your argument to try to piss people off.

i obviously think anderson silva is very good but im just doing the same exact thing you are with fedor. you can say any division sucks and that we will see in the future in some ominous tone indicating how you think it will improve greatly in years to come. you started this whole mess then when people say they dont agree with you you are the one who tells them they have no argument. its pretty ridiculous

On July 25 2008 05:32 TianYuan wrote: Show nested quote + On July 25 2008 00:23 Daut wrote: aoki would never ever ever ever beat bj penn in a billion trillion years. hansen/alvarez/jz/gomi have a chance with probably an A game gomi having the best shot. aoki is just totally outclassed vs bj. no way he would ever submit him, his striking is nonexistant and bj has insane takedown defense and better takedowns. this coming from possibly aoki's biggest mancrush. god <3 aoki such a hero, only a real man can attempt a kneebar, an ankle lock, a triangle, a gogo, an armbar and a RNC in a 2 round fight. You know what I was really surprised by tho? How easily Aoki got Uno to the ground. I thought Uno's takedown defence looked REALLY good vs Ishida, a little Penn like if you will But yeah, Uno - despite having a draw vs Penn - isn't the same thing as actually fighting Penn hehe.. Btw if you like Aoki you really should check out Masakazu Imanari. I think they train together, but I like his submission-entrances more (ie his crazy dives into leglocks :D).

dont let fox see you wrote this he will go on a tirade about how imanari is the devil

ive actually showed this to some people involved in MMA and they just laughed at how stupid bigbb33 is.

but are you really stupid enough to defend an argument for 4 pages based around the premise that fedor would need to be shrunken down with a laser to miniature size?

WAIT you say.. ITS MORE THAN THAT ... no it really isn't

he will never be that small, he is the most dominant fighter in his weight class and there is no one as dominant in any other weight class. thats really all there is to it especially if you abide by the thought process that different weight classes put more emphasis on different skills. so maybe you put value on something that a heavyweight fan wouldn't and vice versa. but theres no one good in the heavyweights says bigbb33!!!!!! how the fuck do you know, all your arguments are moot because you are comparing apples and oranges.

you are similar to some crazed baseball fan arguing:
FUCKIN BABE RUTH WOULD HIT A BASEBALL 500 FT OFF JOEL ZUMAYA WHO THROWS 103 well go get your time machine and find out

i'm gonna start a boxing thread so you can advocate going back in time, time warping a muhammad ali in his prime to oscar de la hoya's prime and then laser beam shrinking him to fight oscar all the while during the fight you tell everyone how muhammad ali really isn't that good compared to the little guys in the skill dept.

wtf are you trying to argue again?


oh yea... laser beams...


what if you took your magical laser beam, which at this point i bet you think it exists, and asked st. pierre if he wanted to be morphed into a 230 heavy weight and fight fedor? what do you think he would say?


by this time i hope you start to see how ludicrous your statements are

LP needs an ignore user feature, id snap apply in this instance

its definitely possible that fedor isnt the best overall p4p fighter. it could be the case that bj, gsp and anderson are all better than him and hes 4th best. it could be the case the heavyweight division is much weaker than all the others and hes probably something like the 3rd best fighter in any other division. but its definitely the most likely case that fedor is one of if not the best overall fighter in the history of the sport.

Apparently he thinks if St. Pierre was 230 he would still be as agile and fast as he is right now.

Just FYI fedor has fought the top three strikers in mma history..

schilt (most accomplished k1 fighter ever)
hunt (top k1 fighter)
crocop (i don't have to even explain myself)

He's beat all three of them....

While anderson silva has major holes on the ground. He's lost on the ground more then once, and he's been mounted and taken into bad positions from inferior fighters more then once. Does he win? of course he does... but to think that fedor can face HW top of of the food chain K1 fighters... and not beat anderson silva is a bit crazy.. the ONLY REASON that you can argue that fedor would LOSE is that his cut to 205 would be bad for him. But there is researchable history that obviously shows that the odds are against anderson silva in that fight. Fedor is the best ground fighter in mma history... and he's beaten the best HW strikers in mma history... how many of anderson's opponents are the best ground fighters in mma history? 0?

I'm not saying anderson sucks, i'm just trying to prove how insane thinking that fedor vs andreson would be in anderson's favor when all facts say you're incorrect. You're better off telling me fedor would lose to chuck lidell........

On July 25 2008 11:02 Daut wrote: Show nested quote + On July 25 2008 05:32 TianYuan wrote:   On July 25 2008 00:23 Daut wrote: aoki would never ever ever ever beat bj penn in a billion trillion years. hansen/alvarez/jz/gomi have a chance with probably an A game gomi having the best shot. aoki is just totally outclassed vs bj. no way he would ever submit him, his striking is nonexistant and bj has insane takedown defense and better takedowns. this coming from possibly aoki's biggest mancrush. god <3 aoki such a hero, only a real man can attempt a kneebar, an ankle lock, a triangle, a gogo, an armbar and a RNC in a 2 round fight. You know what I was really surprised by tho? How easily Aoki got Uno to the ground. I thought Uno's takedown defence looked REALLY good vs Ishida, a little Penn like if you will But yeah, Uno - despite having a draw vs Penn - isn't the same thing as actually fighting Penn hehe.. Btw if you like Aoki you really should check out Masakazu Imanari. I think they train together, but I like his submission-entrances more (ie his crazy dives into leglocks :D). dont let fox see you wrote this he will go on a tirade about how imanari is the devil

that guy should be banned from fighting.

On July 25 2008 11:06 LostDevil wrote: ive actually showed this to some people involved in MMA and they just laughed at how stupid bigbb33 is. but are you really stupid enough to defend an argument for 4 pages based around the premise that fedor would need to be shrunken down with a laser to miniature size? WAIT you say.. ITS MORE THAN THAT ... no it really isn't he will never be that small, he is the most dominant fighter in his weight class and there is no one as dominant in any other weight class. thats really all there is to it especially if you abide by the thought process that different weight classes put more emphasis on different skills. so maybe you put value on something that a heavyweight fan wouldn't and vice versa. but theres no one good in the heavyweights says bigbb33!!!!!! how the fuck do you know, all your arguments are moot because you are comparing apples and oranges. you are similar to some crazed baseball fan arguing: FUCKIN BABE RUTH WOULD HIT A BASEBALL 500 FT OFF JOEL ZUMAYA WHO THROWS 103 well go get your time machine and find out i'm gonna start a boxing thread so you can advocate going back in time, time warping a muhammad ali in his prime to oscar de la hoya's prime and then laser beam shrinking him to fight oscar all the while during the fight you tell everyone how muhammad ali really isn't that good compared to the little guys in the skill dept. wtf are you trying to argue again? oh yea... laser beams... what if you took your magical laser beam, which at this point i bet you think it exists, and asked st. pierre if he wanted to be morphed into a 230 heavy weight and fight fedor? what do you think he would say? by this time i hope you start to see how ludicrous your statements are LP needs an ignore user feature, id snap apply in this instance

Hello sir,

I just had a Xience Ultra Premium Energy Drink. No sugar added either. It had an official UFC logo on it.

I think I know UFC.