On October 24 2017 09:31 Loco wrote:
You don't have any arguments worth discussing. You appeal to science without even knowing anything about the scientific consensus on transsexuality. The science disagrees with you. Instead of navigating YouTube with your confirmation bias, you could just go read up on what the American Psychological Association has to say about it. For example:
A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder.
Sex is assigned at birth, refers to one’s biological status as either male or female, and is associated primarily with physical attributes such as chromosomes, hormone prevalence, and external and internal anatomy. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves. While aspects of biological sex are similar across different cultures, aspects of gender may differ.
Transgender persons have been documented in many indigenous, Western, and Eastern cultures and societies from antiquity until the present day. However, the meaning of gender nonconformity may vary from culture to culture.
Can you explain how it is that you come to different conclusions and your opinion is more credible than that of the largest scientific and professional organization of psychologists in the world?
thank you enlightened one for replying.
1. Trans people have a 30-40% likelihood to commit suicide, that is why i think they are mentally ill. Do you think having suicidal thoughts is healthy to your mind?
2. Secondly what the APA thinks and defines as being mentally ill doesnt change how I view this issue politically or morally. Why do you let other people think for you? I look at the data and make up my own mind, show me new data and I may change my mind like I have plenty of times during my growth as a person.
3. The crux of the argument in the last 10 posts of mine has been Im fine with LGBT groups to do as they please on their own dime, what I don't want them to do is promote their agenda on tax payer money.
Specifically im against.
1. Transgender public bathrooms
2. LGBT sex ed in public schools (and to a lesser extent "normal" sex ed)
3. Adoption of children by same sex and especially trans people
4. Im against Gay marriage if it means the government will subsidize it.
5. Subsizied gay parades
6. LGBT awareness days in work and what not.
Why do you think my views on these specific points are so abhorrent?
P.S whats wrong with learning on youtube? If I told you I learn all my shit by going to the library and researching it there does that make me smarter? Look at the data not the messenger. You logic is embarrassing...
Are you a libertarian?
1. are you opposed to unisex bathrooms? its just people pissing and shitting..
3. wtf? What do you have against trans people adopting children? Whether someone is a good parent isn't determined by sexual orientation or if someone is transgender.
4. If gay people start a family children they deserve all the government subsidies that straight families get. whatever those may be. idk
Are you libertarian?
I’m close to libertarian.
1. If it’s singular bathrooms then yes sure i dont mind if we all share the same bathroom. If public then they should be separated to protect our children and women.
3. I think kids grow up best in an environment with a father figure and a mother figure. I also think kids grow up best when both parents are mentally sound and not have a high propensity to kill themselves. Finally I think kids grow up best when they are genetically linked to both parents.
4. Not really because governments subsidize marriages because they want their society and thus government to continue. Childless marriages should not be subsidized by the government.
that attmpted suicide stat is mostly pre-op, not post op.
1. protect children and women from what?
3. I think kids best grow up in a village. I disagree that kids grow up best based on genetic linkage.
My case for example. I would of been 1 quadtrillion times better off if I grew up with a transgender parent. That alone outweighs your entire argument.
Trans suicide, from my personal experience, comes from hopelessness. Most trans suicides and attempts I would guess are like 95%+ pre bottom surgery.
1. protect kids from sexual assault and perversion
3. Stats agree with me
Also your case while very sad is completely anecdotal so it doesnt outweigh my entire argument. Can you link some trans suicide rates post op?
Had you had a good family, maybe you wouldnt need any hormone treatment, painful hair removal or bottom sugery. You may very well be normal and not suicidal. The science is not settled we dont know if its curable, we dont know how much of sexual orientation is nature versus nurture.
...
gender identity and sexual orientation are two separate things.
transgender is not a sexual orientation.
Wtf is a good family by your definition, and spare me the father mother bullshit.
1. Father
2. Mother
3. Good childhood
Put man and woman together that is how you reproduce and that is the family unit that works and is the best configuration for raising a child.
Why do you think father and mother is bullshit? Do you have any proof it is bad to be raised by two parents? Every single study ever done has shown that a child raised by two parents out performs in every other configuration.
How about a study of transgender people who are raised by mother and father compared to two mothers or two fathers?
My hypothesis would be that because dual mothers or dual fathers are more likely to be accepting of gender exploration. Transkids will sooner identify as themselves, start hormones at age 10-12 and be able to compete in girl's soccer with no qualms.
While mother and fathers, don't allow their children self expression or explore gender near as often as gay parents do.
Last edit: 24/10/2017 12:45
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wobbly_au Australia. Oct 24 2017 12:44. Posts 6540
First give me the post op suicide rate data and answer why father and mother is hullshit.
Heading out but will look at what seems to be a fascinating video that you just linked
The Last Laugh.
Last edit: 24/10/2017 12:44
1
deathstar United States. Oct 24 2017 12:58. Posts 111
On October 24 2017 11:44 wobbly_au wrote:
First give me the post op suicide rate data and answer why father and mother is hullshit.
Heading out but will look at what seems to be a fascinating video that you just linked
Couldn’t find where in that article that says post op suicide rates were same as general population.
Nor did you answer my question on why you think traditional family unit is bullshit.
The Last Laugh.
1
wobbly_au Australia. Oct 24 2017 13:39. Posts 6540
I found it hard to find studies but I did come across this one that suggests the opposite of what you claim. That after gender reassignment surgery transgender people had increased suicide rates.
“Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.”
On October 24 2017 09:31 Loco wrote:
You don't have any arguments worth discussing. You appeal to science without even knowing anything about the scientific consensus on transsexuality. The science disagrees with you. Instead of navigating YouTube with your confirmation bias, you could just go read up on what the American Psychological Association has to say about it. For example:
A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder.
Sex is assigned at birth, refers to one’s biological status as either male or female, and is associated primarily with physical attributes such as chromosomes, hormone prevalence, and external and internal anatomy. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves. While aspects of biological sex are similar across different cultures, aspects of gender may differ.
Transgender persons have been documented in many indigenous, Western, and Eastern cultures and societies from antiquity until the present day. However, the meaning of gender nonconformity may vary from culture to culture.
Can you explain how it is that you come to different conclusions and your opinion is more credible than that of the largest scientific and professional organization of psychologists in the world?
thank you enlightened one for replying.
1. Trans people have a 30-40% likelihood to attempt suicide, that is why i think they are mentally ill. Do you think having suicidal thoughts is healthy to your mind?
2. Secondly what the APA thinks and defines as being mentally ill doesnt change how I view this issue politically or morally. Why do you let other people think for you? I look at the data and make up my own mind, show me new data and I may change my mind like I have plenty of times during my growth as a person.
3. The crux of the argument in the last 10 posts of mine has been Im fine with LGBT groups to do as they please on their own dime, what I don't want them to do is promote their agenda on tax payer money.
Specifically im against.
1. Transgender public bathrooms
2. LGBT sex ed in public schools (and to a lesser extent "normal" sex ed)
3. Adoption of children by same sex and especially trans people
4. Im against Gay marriage if it means the government will subsidize it.
5. Subsizied gay parades
6. LGBT awareness days in work and what not.
Why do you think my views on these specific points are so abhorrent?
P.S whats wrong with learning on youtube? If I told you I learn all my shit by going to the library and researching it there does that make me smarter? Look at the data not the messenger. You logic is embarrassing...
Point 1 is a false cause fallacy: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause
You've decided that the cause of these high rates of attempted suicide is because they are trans, instead of looking for other causes. If you were right about this causal relationship, then there wouldn't be transgender people who do not suffer or are incapacitated in any way from their transgenderism. Since this isn't true, as the APA states, your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise. The main reason why they have high risks of attempting suicide is because their lives are made very difficult by other people, not because their identity distresses them by itself. There are a great many people like you out there who don't even regard them as human beings worthy of respect and protection from the law. They are enemies or broken people with an "agenda". As you've shown here by deliberately misgendering a trans person, you have no problem stigmatizing them, and this problem is systemic, and if often gets much worse than misgendering.
Point 2 is a red herring fallacy. There is a difference between thinking for yourself and going against the scientific consensus while having no scientific basis to do so. You can't justify bigotry merely by saying "I'm an independent thinker". Plus, you had the hubris of saying you were speaking in the name of science, and it's the trans people who are science deniers.
Point 3 These people also pay taxes, and again, they could be your own children. They didn't ask to born and they didn't choose to be the way they are. They should feel empowered and protected as much as possible. The amount of money spent on their needs is no less necessary than other people's needs. The only reason you oppose their so-called "agenda" (which only seeks to empower vulnerable individuals and combat discrimination) is because you have this completely false sense of confidence that you can control the sexual orientation or identity of your children. We all know you wouldn't be spreading this rhetoric if one of your kids was trans, or was picked on for being gay in school. You're too subjective in your thinking so you won't get it until it's put in your face and you're forced to learn about it and go beyond your knee jerk reaction to it. I'd recommend you watch the movie "Boys Don't Cry". If that doesn't do the trick, you're probably a lost cause.
I think it was Gandhi who said that a nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its most vulnerable members. As for YouTube, it's a notorious cesspool of confirmation bias clashes. People don't go there for the "data". It's possible to use it for educational purposes, but only if you've had a proper education and you first and foremost learned to think critically by reading -- yes, reading. It's at best a good complement to reading if that's the case, not a replacement.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Last edit: 24/10/2017 16:52
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wobbly_au Australia. Oct 24 2017 16:02. Posts 6540
All three of your points are debatable and not settled.
I must ask you to stop attacking me personally and just engage in the topic. Get off your high horse, if you don’t then be prepared to take insults too.
1. We don’t know how much is cause and how much is effect
2. What is your argument exactly? Scientific consensus does not favor the trans people at this stage. Some countires it’s a mental illness some countries it’s not. But studies do show it is both genetic and cultural.
3. They are disproportionally outspending tax money.
Specifically im against.
1. Transgender public bathrooms
2. LGBT sex ed in public schools (and to a lesser extent "normal" sex ed)
3. Adoption of children by same sex and especially trans people
4. Im against Gay marriage if it means the government will subsidize it.
5. Subsizied gay parades
6. LGBT awareness days in work and what not.
7. Hormone therapy for non adults
Which part of my post was a personal attack? Saying that you're subjective in your thinking? That's not an attack, it's a fair observation. You're advocating things that are dehumanizing to others because they are distant from you personally so you can't relate to them. That's also my answer to your last question.
1. "We don’t know how much is cause and how much is effect"
That really doesn't say anything. This point has been settled unless you can provide me with evidence that the APA is unaware of and which shows that all transgender individuals suffer from a mental illness (because that is effectively the same thing as saying transgenderism is a mental illness). You choose to focus on the 40% that might attempt suicide, what about the other 60%? Don't you think it's possible that part of that 60% aren't suffering? If they aren't suffering, how can you blame transgenderism on its own? If you're going to say "some of them can suffer from it and others won't", then name me another mental illness that some people don't suffer from.
Point 2 and 3: I'd like to see your sources. Point 3 sounds pretty damn subjective, how much do you think would be "proportional"?
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Last edit: 24/10/2017 16:52
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Santafairy Korea (South). Oct 24 2017 18:50. Posts 2225
how is this a multi page argument? if it's not an illness why would you need to go to the doctor and get treatment?
It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen
What treatment? Gender reassignment surgery? Do you think non trans people who go get surgeries like breast implants are mentally ill? Why is it suddenly a response to mental illness when the person who wants boobs is trans? Both of them will end up feeling better about their own bodies. Not all trans people want to transition, so does that mean sometimes it's a mental illness and sometimes it isn't?
If you mean psychological/psychiatric treatment, isn't it obvious? They need treatment because they are ill, not because they are trans.
I guess it's a multi page argument because some of you guys are incapable of gleaning the facts from objective sources of information since your intuitions must be right. It takes one minute to read the Wiki lede on it and understand that it's not an illness.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Last edit: 24/10/2017 19:55
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deathstar United States. Oct 24 2017 20:49. Posts 111
On October 24 2017 12:39 wobbly_au wrote:
I found it hard to find studies but I did come across this one that suggests the opposite of what you claim. That after gender reassignment surgery transgender people had increased suicide rates.
“Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.”
I looked at the studies numbers and they don't make sense.
324 participants. any death 27/99 What does that mean? Why would it be 27 out of 99 instead of 27 out of 324?
it says any crime, 60 out of 350. There only 324 participants.
Then it says violent crime, 14 out of 61. There are only 60 crimes.
wth?
1
Liquid`Drone Norway. Oct 24 2017 22:15. Posts 3093
Wobbly, you keep citing suicide numbers as a reason for why being a transgender should be considered an illness/why it should be discouraged. At the same time, you insist on calling people by their natural genitalia rather than what they identify as. Are you really not able to see that maybe the prevalence of suicide is related to how transgenders are treated by their surroundings rather than some inherent degree of mental illness?
Like, 13% of rape victims attempt suicide too. 30% contemplate it. Is this also a consequence of mental illness? Severe bullying has the same impact. Transgenders are both way, way more frequently bullied (and also way more frequently subject to sexual assault) than what the case is for ordinary heterosexuals. Your insistence on using 'he' rather than she because you think gender is determined by birth-genitalia is a (to be fair, rather mild) version of this type of bullying behavior. Do you not understand that your treatment of transgenders literally contributes to what you seemingly describe as the main reason for why you want to discourage transgenderism?
lol POKER
1
wobbly_au Australia. Oct 25 2017 02:43. Posts 6540
On October 24 2017 12:39 wobbly_au wrote:
I found it hard to find studies but I did come across this one that suggests the opposite of what you claim. That after gender reassignment surgery transgender people had increased suicide rates.
“Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.”
I looked at the studies numbers and they don't make sense.
324 participants. any death 27/99 What does that mean? Why would it be 27 out of 99 instead of 27 out of 324?
it says any crime, 60 out of 350. There only 324 participants.
Then it says violent crime, 14 out of 61. There are only 60 crimes.
wth?
You aren't being honest with me or yourself.. Answer the questions.
The Last Laugh.
1
wobbly_au Australia. Oct 25 2017 02:45. Posts 6540
On October 24 2017 21:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Wobbly, you keep citing suicide numbers as a reason for why being a transgender should be considered an illness/why it should be discouraged. At the same time, you insist on calling people by their natural genitalia rather than what they identify as. Are you really not able to see that maybe the prevalence of suicide is related to how transgenders are treated by their surroundings rather than some inherent degree of mental illness?
Like, 13% of rape victims attempt suicide too. 30% contemplate it. Is this also a consequence of mental illness? Severe bullying has the same impact. Transgenders are both way, way more frequently bullied (and also way more frequently subject to sexual assault) than what the case is for ordinary heterosexuals. Your insistence on using 'he' rather than she because you think gender is determined by birth-genitalia is a (to be fair, rather mild) version of this type of bullying behavior. Do you not understand that your treatment of transgenders literally contributes to what you seemingly describe as the main reason for why you want to discourage transgenderism?
Like I said, Im fine with calling deathwing or any trans a pronoun if I get to know them.
What I am against is government writing it into anti discrimination bills and forcing me to do it.
That said, the science is still out on wether its a illness or not and I tend to think it is. Im not going around actively bullying anyone, I just dont want my liberties and tax money spent on LGBT agenda.
Yesturday was my day off andI had alot of fun learning about this stuff, today is back to work so dont be surprised if you guys dont see me for a few days
The Last Laugh.
Last edit: 25/10/2017 02:56
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wobbly_au Australia. Oct 25 2017 03:43. Posts 6540
Ok, legit out now. Cya folks.
The Last Laugh.
1
deathstar United States. Oct 25 2017 03:49. Posts 111
On October 24 2017 12:39 wobbly_au wrote:
I found it hard to find studies but I did come across this one that suggests the opposite of what you claim. That after gender reassignment surgery transgender people had increased suicide rates.
“Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.”
I looked at the studies numbers and they don't make sense.
324 participants. any death 27/99 What does that mean? Why would it be 27 out of 99 instead of 27 out of 324?
it says any crime, 60 out of 350. There only 324 participants.
Then it says violent crime, 14 out of 61. There are only 60 crimes.
wth?
You aren't being honest with me or yourself.. Answer the questions.
Can you explain the numbers to the study you linked?
You also have to find data on pre-op transgender people suicide rates to compare post-op suicide rates to.
It will be an indicator of what environment transpeople are living in in Sweden through that time period.
Last edit: 25/10/2017 04:29
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Santafairy Korea (South). Oct 25 2017 04:05. Posts 2225
On October 24 2017 18:21 Loco wrote:
What treatment? Gender reassignment surgery? Do you think non trans people who go get surgeries like breast implants are mentally ill? Why is it suddenly a response to mental illness when the person who wants boobs is trans? Both of them will end up feeling better about their own bodies. Not all trans people want to transition, so does that mean sometimes it's a mental illness and sometimes it isn't?
so you want me to believe that transgenderism is a costume that you just choose to put on, or not if you don't want, like a boob job?
or do you want me to believe that everyone who gets plastic surgery was born in the wrong body and CT scans of their brain show them to be more like big-boobed people and they always identified as having bigger tits and is oppressed if society doesn't humor them?
if you don't want to transition what's the point what are you even talking about
it'd be like coming out as gay but saying you only want to fuck girls
It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen
1
deathstar United States. Oct 25 2017 05:22. Posts 111
On October 25 2017 02:43 wobbly_au wrote:
Ok, legit out now. Cya folks.
I have a problem about every 20 seconds in this video. The doctor, the study, the website link.
On October 24 2017 18:21 Loco wrote:
What treatment? Gender reassignment surgery? Do you think non trans people who go get surgeries like breast implants are mentally ill? Why is it suddenly a response to mental illness when the person who wants boobs is trans? Both of them will end up feeling better about their own bodies. Not all trans people want to transition, so does that mean sometimes it's a mental illness and sometimes it isn't?
so you want me to believe that transgenderism is a costume that you just choose to put on, or not if you don't want, like a boob job?
or do you want me to believe that everyone who gets plastic surgery was born in the wrong body and CT scans of their brain show them to be more like big-boobed people and they always identified as having bigger tits and is oppressed if society doesn't humor them?
if you don't want to transition what's the point what are you even talking about
it'd be like coming out as gay but saying you only want to fuck girls
So the best response you can come up with to my last question is an argument from personal incredulity fallacy? "I don't believe that all transgenders don't want to transition, therefore it mustn't be true"
How is a boob job a "costume?" You don't have the option of unequipping them. The point is that people who invest in it do so because they believe it will help their self-esteem. Obviously the consequences of not transitioning for a trans person might more often be worse than not getting a boob job for a non trans person who really wants one, but the goal is still the same. If some trans people don't feel the need to do it (and I know two of them personally) then who are you to doubt them? You also seem to assume that being trans means that you simply feel like you are the opposite sex than the one you were born with. But the term transgender isn't reserved for people who feel exclusively masculine or feminine, it also includes non-binary people who won't be seeking medical treatment.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
