LGBT Poll - Page 11

On October 29 2017 15:20 Daut wrote: Show nested quote + On October 29 2017 14:05 wobbly_au wrote:   On October 29 2017 12:07 Daut wrote: Some random thoughts I'll throw down before exiting this time suck thread: 1. Basically every gay or trans person I know says they discovered their respective sexual orientation and gender at a very young age, and the literature I've seen seems to back up that it's nature rather than nurture. 2. While it's not 100% clear that the higher attempted rates of suicide are the direct result of mistreatment and not partially caused by hormones and/or other factors due to being gay/trans, we have to assume that bullying is the catalyst. Note that bullying may not be direct bullying, but even a perception that society mistreats LGBTQ groups can cause enough internal strife to lead to a downward spiral of depression. Earlier education on these issues would both decrease depression in LGBTQ people and increase acceptance of LGBTQ by cisgendered people which creates a positive feedback loop of less suicide/depression instead. 3. Most libertarians I've encountered were born on third base and go through life thinking they hit a triple. Everyone thinks they had it tough and worked hard to get to where they were, but have no idea of the hidden battles their peers may face. 4. Being against gay marriage is abhorrent. 5. Being against adoption of children by same sex or trans couples is also abhorrent. 6. Don't let post op trans women that had male testosterone levels past puberty compete in women's sports as a rule, and make exceptions in borderline cases. Very typical views, actually I was like this before my wife and I had children. Fair enough though. If your current lifestyle situation shaped your views, then other changes to your lifestyle -- such as having a trans relative -- could change them again. I've seen enough examples of right wingers who were anti-universal health care, anti-abortion, or had other conservative views that went out the window once something affected them to know that maximizing your own self interests is not the best way to formulate opinions. An example: Representative Tim Murray of Pennsylvania, an anti abortion lawmaker, pushed for his mistress to have an abortion: https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/04/tim-murphy-abortion-mistress-243456

Absolutely right, my views aren't set in stone they are just how I feel in this moment of my life. Same goes for you though.

But alas I'm not here to convince anyone or call out people who think differently, just wanted to have a conversation and speak out against the majority.

On October 29 2017 15:17 Liquid`Drone wrote: How did having children change your opinion on those issues? I don't get that.

It's complicated and would kind of derail this thread. If you are really interested PM me.

the TLDR is I just want my kids and their kids to grow up in the best environment possible, I dont want kids growing up with 2 dads, 2 moms or transgender parents.

Never understood the consertive's moto of "freedom" and "free speech" , yet when it comes to freedom of lifestyle choices of others, it's a big no-no.

On October 29 2017 15:32 wobbly_au wrote: Show nested quote + On October 29 2017 15:17 Liquid`Drone wrote: How did having children change your opinion on those issues? I don't get that. It's complicated and would kind of derail this thread. If you are really interested PM me. the TLDR is I just want my kids and their kids to grow up in the best environment possible, I dont want kids growing up with 2 dads, 2 moms or transgender parents.

How are LGBT parents detrimental to a young child's environment?

On October 29 2017 12:07 Daut wrote: ....

Agree with this. My only problem is that society is heading towards the path of labeling the whole research of whether its nature or nurture as "disrespectful" towards the LGBT, which is quite absurd. It is a topic that must definitely be explored further, cause if it's nurture then it could be connected to the priming effect, then again it has not yet been proven that children could be just as easily primed as adults, even though many studies do suggest it.

@wobbly

Eligibility of parenthood shouldn't even have sexual orientation as a factor. There are about a hundred other stuff that are way much more important. It actually sounds much more reasonable for a transsexual couple to show much more understanding of the child's sexual orientation while growing up regardless of whether it is hetero/homo or whatever.

On October 29 2017 20:48 deathstar wrote: Show nested quote + On October 29 2017 15:32 wobbly_au wrote:   On October 29 2017 15:17 Liquid`Drone wrote: How did having children change your opinion on those issues? I don't get that. It's complicated and would kind of derail this thread. If you are really interested PM me. the TLDR is I just want my kids and their kids to grow up in the best environment possible, I dont want kids growing up with 2 dads, 2 moms or transgender parents. How are LGBT parents detrimental to a young child's environment?

He intuited it. His logic is basically this: Traditional values = best values, since they're traditional. It's called begging the question.

He actually already explained this earlier in the thread. You could somewhat sympathize with him if what he actually meant was that he didn't want a child to grow up with high risk parents. But this isn't what he actually believes, since you can see here from the way he phrased it that his problem is with the sexual orientation and the gender identity of the parents, not their respective mental health.

1. High suicide rates of parents
2. Kids often grow out of phases but having lgbt parents might nurture their orientation toward lgbt and strip them of the joy of living normal lives and having biological children with their partner.
3.straight parents are way less likely to entertain the elected child abuse that is hormone therapy for their kids

except that insututionalized kids do much better than lgtb adopted kids, what do you say about that?

If your concern were the well being of kids instead of just following your ideology you would support adoption from LGBT over kids staying in the system

1. So your problem is the suicide rate and not the causes of the suicide rates?
2. Having heterosexual parents might nurture their child's orientation towards heterosexuality. My parenting would be let the child be themselves and not nurture one way or the other. To me, to do so either way is insane.
3. The wrong puberty for a transgender kid is torture. To not support hormone therapy is to torture your own transgender child.

On October 30 2017 00:05 wobbly_au wrote: 1. High suicide rates of parents

You are asian, higher suicide rate than the mean, please turn your kids in so the state can take care of them.

On October 30 2017 01:46 Baalim wrote: except that insututionalized kids do much better than lgtb adopted kids, what do you say about that? If your concern were the well being of kids instead of just following your ideology you would support adoption from LGBT over kids staying in the system

thats not true, just because pee smells better than poo doesn't mean I want to drink it.

On October 30 2017 01:52 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On October 30 2017 00:05 wobbly_au wrote: 1. High suicide rates of parents You are asian, higher suicide rate than the mean, please turn your kids in so the state can take care of them.

Even if Asian kids have a higher suicide rate than state sponsored kids which it isn't, taking away someone's kids and not letting a couple adopt is vastly different as I pointed out earlier.

On October 30 2017 01:51 deathstar wrote: 1. So your problem is the suicide rate and not the causes of the suicide rates? 2. Having heterosexual parents might nurture their child's orientation towards heterosexuality. My parenting would be let the child be themselves and not nurture one way or the other. To me, to do so either way is insane. 3. The wrong puberty for a transgender kid is torture. To not support hormone therapy is to torture your own transgender child.

Sorry dude, but stop coming back with your case. There are heaps of examples of kids who were confused but luckily didn't take life-changing and sometimes permanent solutions to a temporary problem.

On October 30 2017 00:03 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On October 29 2017 20:48 deathstar wrote:   On October 29 2017 15:32 wobbly_au wrote:   On October 29 2017 15:17 Liquid`Drone wrote: How did having children change your opinion on those issues? I don't get that. It's complicated and would kind of derail this thread. If you are really interested PM me. the TLDR is I just want my kids and their kids to grow up in the best environment possible, I dont want kids growing up with 2 dads, 2 moms or transgender parents. How are LGBT parents detrimental to a young child's environment? He intuited it. His logic is basically this: Traditional values = best values, since they're traditional. It's called begging the question. He actually already explained this earlier in the thread. You could somewhat sympathize with him if what he actually meant was that he didn't want a child to grow up with high risk parents. But this isn't what he actually believes, since you can see here from the way he phrased it that his problem is with the sexual orientation and the gender identity of the parents, not their respective mental health.

Actually you should learn to read I have been saying that LGBT families are high risk parents and fare far worse than the traditional family.

On October 30 2017 02:19 wobbly_au wrote: Show nested quote + On October 30 2017 01:51 deathstar wrote: 1. So your problem is the suicide rate and not the causes of the suicide rates? 2. Having heterosexual parents might nurture their child's orientation towards heterosexuality. My parenting would be let the child be themselves and not nurture one way or the other. To me, to do so either way is insane. 3. The wrong puberty for a transgender kid is torture. To not support hormone therapy is to torture your own transgender child. Sorry dude, but stop coming back with your case. There are heaps of examples of kids who were confused but luckily didn't take life-changing and sometimes permanent solutions to a temporary problem.

What are you talking about, permanent solution to a temporary problem? What permanent solution? What temporary problem?
The difference between a young adolescent having their correct hormones or not is the difference between appearing cisgender or transgender.
Trans people who appear as cisgender people have the same suicide rates as the general pop.
Trans people who don't pass. Have like 13x higher suicide rate. I've only heard of two suicide stories of trans people. So I'll share.
This transwoman was cut off from communication from her family for transitioning. She was working a job. And she was being harassed by her coworkers because she's trans. She reported them to her boss and was fired. She went to the lawyer to sue the company and the lawyer wouldn't take her case because she was trans. The next day she blew her brains out. She did not kill herself because she's trans. She killed herself because how people treated her because she's trans.
The other suicide was a woman in Pennsylvania. Where I'm from. Its hostile territory towards people who are non-binary or transgender. Intimidation/violence/slurs out in the open, from random people.
So she hid and lived as a man in public. She was making ends meet and her dream to live as a woman wouldn't come to fruition. Everyday of living as a man was terrible. She couldn't save money up for surgeries, couldn't keep living as a man. And she blew her brains out. Her family also cut communication off with her. Neither of these transpeople were parents.
If you ask either of these dead people if they could of had the correct hormones as an adolescent so they would appear cisgender and how that would of effected the outcome of their lives, I think they definitely would want hormone therapy as an adolescent as any transgender person does.
So please produce one of the heap you are talking about where a child requests the opposite sex's hormones out of confusion.
We can go to reddit/r/asktransgender and ask like 1,000 people if they would of wanted the correct sex hormones as an adolescent. And the polling data would be 100%.
So if you want to lower trans suicide rates, allowing transkids to have the correct hormones does that by a fucking million miles.

On October 30 2017 02:20 wobbly_au wrote: Show nested quote + On October 30 2017 00:03 Loco wrote:   On October 29 2017 20:48 deathstar wrote:   On October 29 2017 15:32 wobbly_au wrote:   On October 29 2017 15:17 Liquid`Drone wrote: How did having children change your opinion on those issues? I don't get that. It's complicated and would kind of derail this thread. If you are really interested PM me. the TLDR is I just want my kids and their kids to grow up in the best environment possible, I dont want kids growing up with 2 dads, 2 moms or transgender parents. How are LGBT parents detrimental to a young child's environment? He intuited it. His logic is basically this: Traditional values = best values, since they're traditional. It's called begging the question. He actually already explained this earlier in the thread. You could somewhat sympathize with him if what he actually meant was that he didn't want a child to grow up with high risk parents. But this isn't what he actually believes, since you can see here from the way he phrased it that his problem is with the sexual orientation and the gender identity of the parents, not their respective mental health. Actually you should learn to read I have been saying that LGBT families are high risk parents and fare far worse than the traditional family.

Actually, that's precisely what I was saying. You're pro-traditional values. You're the one who can't read. The important distinction you're not making is that it's bad for kids to be brought up by people who are mentally ill, regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity. If you were logical and non-bigoted, you would be saying "I'm opposed to kids growing up with unstable, high risk parents". That would include some homosexuals and transgender people, but also the rest of the population who are high risk. It would tell us that your real concern is with high risk parents. Instead, you exclusively target gay and transgender people who may or may not be mentally ill.

Obviously I predict that you will retort, "of course I care about high risk parents regardless of the cause, I want what's best for the kids". But I don't think you do. At no point did you say you would be willing to make an exception if the LGBT parents are not high risk. You're clearly just straight up opposed to a non-traditional family set up regardless of emotional/financial stability in the home.

I agree here with Loco, Daniel Kahnemann even has a good research on that, you're basically falling for the intuitive statistical trap almost all of us have preprogrammed.

There is also a huge body of research that shows that the more you embrace cultural values, the more you are existentially conflicted. In other words, the more you repress the fact that your life is insignificant and that you will die one day-- and everyone will have forgotten about you in just three generations from now-- the more attached you will be to traditional cultural value systems. That's a trap that runs much deeper. The theory is that cultural values offer a kind of symbolic immortality that one desperately needs to cling on to in order to make sense out of life. So, the conservative macho guy is really just a scared animal who lacks self-awareness and has very robust psychological defenses.

Truth

omg Loco