Saying "Hello" is racist and homophobic - Page 7

On November 03 2014 20:31 Baalim wrote: im going to add some serious fuel to this discussion, and remember where I live when I say these words. You cant just ignore all the statistics Gnarly post and justify them under slavery 150 years ago and subsequent racism, certainly its a defining huge factor but I think an even bigger factor is culture and I believe that because of my own experience with Mexican culture. A few years ago we were in need of programmers and designers for LiquidPoker and we hired two Mexicans and it didnt go well, we ended up having to hire considerably more expensive european employees because simply the Mexicans were not as industrious and not as reliable and thats is simply a reflection of the culture of our countries, a german in average simply will outperform a Mexican in most jobs, not because their are smarter or genetically superior, simply because we have different cultures, Germans have values of hard work and integrity, Mexicans value family cheerfulness, etc. So I don't think its whites what its keeping blacks down, they are simply victims of their own culture, and if you speak with somewhat successful in a third world country you will see alike opinions, maybe its harder for somebody like Drone who has lived in Europe all his life to see this.

This, while true, has like 0 to do with the topic, you were trying to get cheap programmers which usually suck, price of labor and quality of work are almost always dependent of each other. I was not expecting you to give a biased example :o

On November 03 2014 20:31 Baalim wrote: im going to add some serious fuel to this discussion, and remember where I live when I say these words. You cant just ignore all the statistics Gnarly post and justify them under slavery 150 years ago and subsequent racism, certainly its a defining huge factor but I think an even bigger factor is culture and I believe that because of my own experience with Mexican culture. A few years ago we were in need of programmers and designers for LiquidPoker and we hired two Mexicans and it didnt go well, we ended up having to hire considerably more expensive european employees because simply the Mexicans were not as industrious and not as reliable and thats is simply a reflection of the culture of our countries, a german in average simply will outperform a Mexican in most jobs, not because their are smarter or genetically superior, simply because we have different cultures, Germans have values of hard work and integrity, Mexicans value family cheerfulness, etc. So I don't think its whites what its keeping blacks down, they are simply victims of their own culture, and if you speak with somewhat successful in a third world country you will see alike opinions, maybe its harder for somebody like Drone who has lived in Europe all his life to see this.

Hmm, every culture is described as incapable of economic development because of laziness before it happens. In fact Germany is a good example of a country that was ridiculed in the early 19th century for their laziness by British and the French. The same for Koreans and Japanese who were described as not having a work ethic. You can find these comments in old literature books like Frankenstein. It's been studied by development economists too. Those economists give a good case for saying that when a country develops it is because of economic reasons, and that can change their culture later on. But it cant be the other way around, that is a country or group of people does not change their culture and then develop.

There is an interesting topic in political science that i do not study, but which is called 'cultural imperialism'. In fact the mass media system that the western world uses has a deep effect on seducing the cultures of poorer nations, (and rich nations to some extent). For example in New Zealand in the 1980's Maori have began copying the culture of black people from America. So now we have a bunch of rap artists, and street graffiti as well. And i know its true in Africa, you find poor black people with Obama posters, and want to be like a black American because they think blacks in America are incredibly wealthy. All they see are people like Obama, Michael Jordan or some rap artist, but they don't see much of the black ghetto side. So i think white people who own the media do impose cultural values on poorer people that have a destructive, dis-empowering effect

And of course its whites that are keeping the black people down. Well, it's more the class system, where black people are more often poor than rich, as compared to white people. I've already talked about the prison system in basically every thread like this one, so i wont go into it again. But there is a need to punish black people really hard. Because they are different to other people, and when you punish someone who is different it makes the majority think they are mean criminals. The reason for this is it gives people like Gnarly a reason to think black people are ruining his life instead of the real reasons.

And i'd guess Black culture is at it's lowest point at the moment as well. I mean modern day rap has a very dis-empowering effect on the American black community from what i can see. A lot of it preaches 'getting rich or die trying'. With that cultural value black people will never rise to power as a group because it expresses a value of individualism, which is a value that when one group adopts loses their collective power which is something that is needed when you want to make any good change. (such as the civil rights movement in the 1960's). That's just my opinion.

Anyway, now i'm way off topic.

I'll add even more fuel to the fire and say that there is a genetic element to intelligence that loves to be denied for the sake of political correctness. With most nature vs nurture questions the answer is usually some combination of the two, however what we have these days is people attributing everything to one or the other for ideological reasons rather than scientific reasons.

So you have conservative racists and homophobics that will say that black people are genetically inferior and that gay people are gay by choice. That way we can't blame society for black people being in a lower social class and we can blame gay people for their lifestyle choices.

On the other side you have liberals and social justice warriors that will say there are no genetic differences between races and that homosexuals are gay from birth. Now we can blame racism and white privilege for black people being in a lower social class and we can say gay people were just born that way.

Either view is way too simplistic to be true. People are most likely born on a scale of intelligence or sexuality that can be influenced by societal and environmental factors in either direction.

P.S. I'll openly admit that white privilege exists and I have absolutely no problem with gay people and I fully support gay marriage/gay adoption, etc.. So if you wish to disagree with me try to do better than "you're a racist homophobe hurr durr."

On November 04 2014 02:01 blackjacki2 wrote: I'll add even more fuel to the fire and say that there is a genetic element to intelligence that loves to be denied for the sake of political correctness. With most nature vs nurture questions the answer is usually some combination of the two, however what we have these days is people attributing everything to one or the other for ideological reasons rather than scientific reasons. So you have conservative racists and homophobics that will say that black people are genetically inferior and that gay people are gay by choice. That way we can't blame society for black people being in a lower social class and we can blame gay people for their lifestyle choices. On the other side you have liberals and social justice warriors that will say there are no genetic differences between races and that homosexuals are gay from birth. Now we can blame racism and white privilege for black people being in a lower social class and we can say gay people were just born that way. Either view is way too simplistic to be true. People are most likely born on a scale of intelligence or sexuality that can be influenced by societal and environmental factors in either direction. P.S. I'll openly admit that white privilege exists and I have absolutely no problem with gay people and I fully support gay marriage/gay adoption, etc.. So if you wish to disagree with me try to do better than "you're a racist homophobe hurr durr."

There is a very simple way to answer to this, which is that you could just go and ask scientists and historians, anthropologists to see what they have to say about race. Although there is disagreement over some of them, they all agree with the simple answer you attributed to the liberals.

You can read about their reasons here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and..._a_social_construct_and_populationism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics

>race is a social construct
>lets ignore the massive amount of haplotype data we have for humans

Also, drone, I quoted a wiki article, which means you can find multiple citations there. try reading ALL of them, why don't you?

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~elock/Visualizations.html

>not knowing about haplotypes

On November 04 2014 03:15 Stroggoz wrote: Show nested quote + On November 04 2014 02:01 blackjacki2 wrote: I'll add even more fuel to the fire and say that there is a genetic element to intelligence that loves to be denied for the sake of political correctness. With most nature vs nurture questions the answer is usually some combination of the two, however what we have these days is people attributing everything to one or the other for ideological reasons rather than scientific reasons. So you have conservative racists and homophobics that will say that black people are genetically inferior and that gay people are gay by choice. That way we can't blame society for black people being in a lower social class and we can blame gay people for their lifestyle choices. On the other side you have liberals and social justice warriors that will say there are no genetic differences between races and that homosexuals are gay from birth. Now we can blame racism and white privilege for black people being in a lower social class and we can say gay people were just born that way. Either view is way too simplistic to be true. People are most likely born on a scale of intelligence or sexuality that can be influenced by societal and environmental factors in either direction. P.S. I'll openly admit that white privilege exists and I have absolutely no problem with gay people and I fully support gay marriage/gay adoption, etc.. So if you wish to disagree with me try to do better than "you're a racist homophobe hurr durr." There is a very simple way to answer to this, which is that you could just go and ask scientists and historians, anthropologists to see what they have to say about race. Although there is disagreement over some of them, they all agree with the simple answer you attributed to the liberals. You can read about their reasons here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and..._a_social_construct_and_populationism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics

Nothing you've provided shows any scientific consensus. Almost every sentence starts with "some anthropologists believe..." or "some historians believe..."

The only thing that all scientists agree on is that there ARE genetic differences between groups of people. The only disagreement is whether we want to call these differences as differences between "races," "groups," "populations," or whatever else.

Researchers have reported significant differences in the average IQ test scores of various racial groups. The interpretation and causes of these differences are controversial, as researchers disagree about whether this gap is caused by genetic differences.

You've provided literally nothing, blackjack. Haplotypes have been heavily studied, you can really do this research on your own instead of needing to be spoonfed like a little baby.

On November 03 2014 22:57 Spitfiree wrote: Show nested quote + On November 03 2014 20:31 Baalim wrote: im going to add some serious fuel to this discussion, and remember where I live when I say these words. You cant just ignore all the statistics Gnarly post and justify them under slavery 150 years ago and subsequent racism, certainly its a defining huge factor but I think an even bigger factor is culture and I believe that because of my own experience with Mexican culture. A few years ago we were in need of programmers and designers for LiquidPoker and we hired two Mexicans and it didnt go well, we ended up having to hire considerably more expensive european employees because simply the Mexicans were not as industrious and not as reliable and thats is simply a reflection of the culture of our countries, a german in average simply will outperform a Mexican in most jobs, not because their are smarter or genetically superior, simply because we have different cultures, Germans have values of hard work and integrity, Mexicans value family cheerfulness, etc. So I don't think its whites what its keeping blacks down, they are simply victims of their own culture, and if you speak with somewhat successful in a third world country you will see alike opinions, maybe its harder for somebody like Drone who has lived in Europe all his life to see this. This, while true, has like 0 to do with the topic, you were trying to get cheap programmers which usually suck, price of labor and quality of work are almost always dependent of each other. I was not expecting you to give a biased example :o

Way to miss the point, it was a practical example and cheap had nothing to do with it, the avg Mexican wage is lower, and the value of a dollar is higher so naturally it will be less expensive than a programmer from Netherlands but its not like we are hiring a top programmer from the netherlands and a below avg mexican one, their average work quality and quantity differ because of our different cultures

On November 04 2014 02:01 blackjacki2 wrote: I'll add even more fuel to the fire and say that there is a genetic element to intelligence that loves to be denied for the sake of political correctness. With most nature vs nurture questions the answer is usually some combination of the two, however what we have these days is people attributing everything to one or the other for ideological reasons rather than scientific reasons. So you have conservative racists and homophobics that will say that black people are genetically inferior and that gay people are gay by choice. That way we can't blame society for black people being in a lower social class and we can blame gay people for their lifestyle choices. On the other side you have liberals and social justice warriors that will say there are no genetic differences between races and that homosexuals are gay from birth. Now we can blame racism and white privilege for black people being in a lower social class and we can say gay people were just born that way. Either view is way too simplistic to be true. People are most likely born on a scale of intelligence or sexuality that can be influenced by societal and environmental factors in either direction. P.S. I'll openly admit that white privilege exists and I have absolutely no problem with gay people and I fully support gay marriage/gay adoption, etc.. So if you wish to disagree with me try to do better than "you're a racist homophobe hurr durr."

Even if blacks were on avg less intelligent that would mean that asians superior IQ would make them rulers of the world but they arent.

Its really not that important those slight genetic differences compared to culture

On November 04 2014 00:43 Stroggoz wrote: Show nested quote + On November 03 2014 20:31 Baalim wrote: im going to add some serious fuel to this discussion, and remember where I live when I say these words. You cant just ignore all the statistics Gnarly post and justify them under slavery 150 years ago and subsequent racism, certainly its a defining huge factor but I think an even bigger factor is culture and I believe that because of my own experience with Mexican culture. A few years ago we were in need of programmers and designers for LiquidPoker and we hired two Mexicans and it didnt go well, we ended up having to hire considerably more expensive european employees because simply the Mexicans were not as industrious and not as reliable and thats is simply a reflection of the culture of our countries, a german in average simply will outperform a Mexican in most jobs, not because their are smarter or genetically superior, simply because we have different cultures, Germans have values of hard work and integrity, Mexicans value family cheerfulness, etc. So I don't think its whites what its keeping blacks down, they are simply victims of their own culture, and if you speak with somewhat successful in a third world country you will see alike opinions, maybe its harder for somebody like Drone who has lived in Europe all his life to see this. Hmm, every culture is described as incapable of economic development because of laziness before it happens. In fact Germany is a good example of a country that was ridiculed in the early 19th century for their laziness by British and the French. The same for Koreans and Japanese who were described as not having a work ethic. You can find these comments in old literature books like Frankenstein. It's been studied by development economists too. Those economists give a good case for saying that when a country develops it is because of economic reasons, and that can change their culture later on. But it cant be the other way around, that is a country or group of people does not change their culture and then develop. There is an interesting topic in political science that i do not study, but which is called 'cultural imperialism'. In fact the mass media system that the western world uses has a deep effect on seducing the cultures of poorer nations, (and rich nations to some extent). For example in New Zealand in the 1980's Maori have began copying the culture of black people from America. So now we have a bunch of rap artists, and street graffiti as well. And i know its true in Africa, you find poor black people with Obama posters, and want to be like a black American because they think blacks in America are incredibly wealthy. All they see are people like Obama, Michael Jordan or some rap artist, but they don't see much of the black ghetto side. So i think white people who own the media do impose cultural values on poorer people that have a destructive, dis-empowering effect

Culture can change drastically in just a few years, this is the best example of it:




There was a severe culture degradation through religiousness in the middle east in the last 40 years, this is not only proof of radical cultural change but of how culture is the most important factor in the economical growth of a region.

So Im not saying that blacks or Mexicans cant grow, what im saying is that Its not the white man keeping us down, its our own culture and as long as we dont change our ideology nothing will really change.

http://lybio.net/tag/charles-barkley-...secret-in-the-black-community-quotes/

[Charles Wade Barkley ] As I tell my white friends, we as black people, we’re never going to be successful, not because of you white people, but because of other black people. When you’re black, you have to deal with so much crap in your life from other black people. It’s a — it’s a dirty, dark secret; I’m glad it’s coming out. It comes out every few years. I wrote a big chapter in my book about it, to be honest with you. I say, you know, when young black kids, you know, when they do well in school, the loser kids tell them, ‘Oh, you’re acting white.’ The kids who speak intelligently, they tell them, ‘You’re acting white.’ So it’s a dirty, dark secret in the black community. One of the reasons we’re never going to be successful as a whole, because of other black people. And for some reason we are brainwashed to think, if you’re not a thug or an idiot, you’re not black enough. If you go to school, make good grades, speak intelligent, and don’t break the law, you’re not a good black person. And it’s a dirty, dark secret

according to this Baal is spot on

It kinda is, what sucks is that racists will cling to that shit and they dont understand that they are no different but just were born in a different place, and the "liberals" wont ever admit something like that holding truth because they feel they are giving some terrain to racist, and as I said to some extent they do.

baalim, americans are under the impression that mexican culture is one of hard workers and whatnot.

also, with the asian IQ thing, if you are going by the bell curve, white people actually are the ones who can achieve the highest iq, by like 30 points over asians. it's just that white's average iq is lower than asians average iq, though they are only second in highest possible.

>getting this BTFO

#t=36

On November 04 2014 17:18 Baalim wrote: It kinda is, what sucks is that racists will cling to that shit and they dont understand that they are no different but just were born in a different place, and the "liberals" wont ever admit something like that holding truth because they feel they are giving some terrain to racist, and as I said to some extent they do.

I don't really disagree with what lebowski quoted (although that doesn't seem nuanced enough - of course it's hard to be nuanced in one paragraph) or what you've been posting earlier. I just think that this culture hasn't developed in a vacuum. I don't have time to participate more in this debate now, but I'll just post what I wrote on a different forum at a different time when confronted by the statement "Personally, I love seeing liberals struggle to explain why Asians have succeeded where Blacks haven't. Their histories are very similar -- a better fit than Indians."

(Where my reply to this follows)

There's only one way this is explained by any type of non-systematic explanation pertaining to the individuals involved, and that is by stating that africans are genetically inferior to asians (in regards to attaining success as defined by 'America'). That actually is a narrative I am refusing to accept even if it were proven true because the acceptance of those ideas have historically been breeding grounds for the some of the worst atrocities through human history.

Basically, I can accept that 'black culture' (as a collective term used to describe disenfranchised youth in inner cities including whites and hispanics as well just in much smaller number) has let's just say, a focus on short term pleasure rather than long term gain - and in this regard, it is diametrically opposed to the culture brought by first generation asian immigrants. I just can't accept that the individuals who are part of this culture are given personal blame for this. You can't just 'choose' to distance yourself from the ideals of your community, it doesn't work like that. Basically for personal choice to be the (frankly, even a) factor in explaining large systematic differences between ethnic groups, you have to state that the groups differ genetically, and then you'd still be blaming individuals for losing a birth lottery.

But yes, if 'black america' suddenly decided to collectively start spending the same hours and energy and dedication that 'asian america' does on activities that are likely to 'build long term character', then african americans would end up being over-represented in more positive rather than negative statistics. There's no doubt about this and it would be intellectually dishonest for me to suggest otherwise. But you can't just like, tell them to collectively wisen up and expect that to happen. Groups of people act in ways that are counter-productive all the time - but in my experience, people also always act according to their own rationality. (this is very different from are always rational.) By this I mean that, maybe for the 17 year old african american, it just makes way more sense for him to get a little high and laid a bunch than for him to spend the following 6 years working to get a degree. Firstly, the importance of education was never pushed onto him as a child. He didn't have parents who read books or even newspapers. With this background, you cannot simply expect him, as a 17 year old, to achieve the same academic results as a 17 year old asian whose childhood included a significant portion of ''work as hard as you can in school because your academic success is the most important aspect for determining your future happiness' lectures. In this scenario, our african american would probably have to work twice as hard from that point on to make up for inequalities stemming from a period of his life he cannot possibly be expected to have control over. Likewise, butts and drugs are far more available to him, and can provide happiness that detracts from what is essentially no real prospect for the future.

I essentially think it's incredibly unfair to just say to a group of people ; well, sure it's tougher for you guys, but that just means you have to work harder, because this drive and motivation to work hard aren't factors determined by their own choices. I, as a liberal by american definition, can certainly notice that there are significant cultural differences between asian, white and black communities. But I don't want to put the blame on this to the people belonging to the communities, in my opinion (and I cannot see how I can be convinced otherwise), group mentalities cannot be explained by individual choices.

ITT: mental gymnastics

>group mentalities can't be explained by individual choices

holiest of fucks. a group is made up of individuals. each one of them made a choice. there is no way you can double somersault your way out of that one.

On November 05 2014 01:36 Liquid`Drone wrote: Show nested quote + On November 04 2014 17:18 Baalim wrote: It kinda is, what sucks is that racists will cling to that shit and they dont understand that they are no different but just were born in a different place, and the "liberals" wont ever admit something like that holding truth because they feel they are giving some terrain to racist, and as I said to some extent they do. I don't really disagree with what lebowski quoted (although that doesn't seem nuanced enough - of course it's hard to be nuanced in one paragraph) or what you've been posting earlier. I just think that this culture hasn't developed in a vacuum. I don't have time to participate more in this debate now, but I'll just post what I wrote on a different forum at a different time when confronted by the statement "Personally, I love seeing liberals struggle to explain why Asians have succeeded where Blacks haven't. Their histories are very similar -- a better fit than Indians." (Where my reply to this follows) There's only one way this is explained by any type of non-systematic explanation pertaining to the individuals involved, and that is by stating that africans are genetically inferior to asians (in regards to attaining success as defined by 'America'). That actually is a narrative I am refusing to accept even if it were proven true because the acceptance of those ideas have historically been breeding grounds for the some of the worst atrocities through human history. Basically, I can accept that 'black culture' (as a collective term used to describe disenfranchised youth in inner cities including whites and hispanics as well just in much smaller number) has let's just say, a focus on short term pleasure rather than long term gain - and in this regard, it is diametrically opposed to the culture brought by first generation asian immigrants. I just can't accept that the individuals who are part of this culture are given personal blame for this. You can't just 'choose' to distance yourself from the ideals of your community, it doesn't work like that. Basically for personal choice to be the (frankly, even a) factor in explaining large systematic differences between ethnic groups, you have to state that the groups differ genetically, and then you'd still be blaming individuals for losing a birth lottery. But yes, if 'black america' suddenly decided to collectively start spending the same hours and energy and dedication that 'asian america' does on activities that are likely to 'build long term character', then african americans would end up being over-represented in more positive rather than negative statistics. There's no doubt about this and it would be intellectually dishonest for me to suggest otherwise. But you can't just like, tell them to collectively wisen up and expect that to happen. Groups of people act in ways that are counter-productive all the time - but in my experience, people also always act according to their own rationality. (this is very different from are always rational.) By this I mean that, maybe for the 17 year old african american, it just makes way more sense for him to get a little high and laid a bunch than for him to spend the following 6 years working to get a degree. Firstly, the importance of education was never pushed onto him as a child. He didn't have parents who read books or even newspapers. With this background, you cannot simply expect him, as a 17 year old, to achieve the same academic results as a 17 year old asian whose childhood included a significant portion of ''work as hard as you can in school because your academic success is the most important aspect for determining your future happiness' lectures. In this scenario, our african american would probably have to work twice as hard from that point on to make up for inequalities stemming from a period of his life he cannot possibly be expected to have control over. Likewise, butts and drugs are far more available to him, and can provide happiness that detracts from what is essentially no real prospect for the future. I essentially think it's incredibly unfair to just say to a group of people ; well, sure it's tougher for you guys, but that just means you have to work harder, because this drive and motivation to work hard aren't factors determined by their own choices. I, as a liberal by american definition, can certainly notice that there are significant cultural differences between asian, white and black communities. But I don't want to put the blame on this to the people belonging to the communities, in my opinion (and I cannot see how I can be convinced otherwise), group mentalities cannot be explained by individual choices.

Everything you say is true, I'd just disagree with your definition of fairness. If blacks shouldn't be blamed for having the group mentality that education isn't as important as short-term pleasures then asians shouldn't be blamed for having the group mentality that education and hard work is very important. In a society with a finite amount of resources, the more you spend to bring one group up, the less you have to allocate to the other group(s). Since blacks have twice as many hurdles to overcome as you said, we should probably spend twice the funding on education for black students than for asian students. So what you end up with is a society that spends the most on education for the culture that values education the least and the least on the culture that values education the most. I suppose then we could all fail into the middle to satisfy a perverted sense of fairness.

>throwing a bunch of a money towards people who don't value education
>restricting money towards people who value education

Socialistic democrat?

If blacks can't be blamed for their choices, and asians can't be blamed for their choices, who is to blame?

>perverted sense of fairness

You know who speaks like that? Lena Dunham...

I've skimmed over this topic and only one thing stands out is 100% true to me--both sides of the argument, Gnarly included, have contributed intelligently to the argument at hand. It seems, however, each side is too focused on proving his own point to listen to the good points made by the other side. Instead of trying to build a wall and reinforce it with cannons, why don't you try and understand where the argument from the other side stems from? No one even has to reach an agreement, but the name-calling is unnecessary in a civilized debate and only curbs the efficacy of dialogue.

Now, please continue!