Bloated Pot Spots (Part 1 of Possibly Many) - Page 2

You have 1½ PSB left in a pot with lot of money. Only person that can get us to fold is Villain 1 and his range and action is some what capped because of his preflop position and players left to act.

It's hard to have a discussion when the GTO play is clearly a bet.

Turn can be somewhat interesting to some when facing 3+ way action since Villain 1 can be slow playing monster to draw others in. I doubt it'll be worthy of any discussion though.

Next hand pls

andrewsong is the nuts

On November 23 2011 14:55 DooMeR wrote: casinocasino is the nuts

all are bets obviously. you cant check and fold if it goes bet/raise cause this is holdem and people will get it in worse. you can bet and fold if villain 1 raises on probably 986, others you can only fold if it goes raise/3bet behind you or raise/cold call on 992

--- Nuked ---

On November 22 2011 14:54 JonnyCosMo wrote: I suppose, I guess I would need to describe each villan more indepth, or maybe just start off w one flop. Most live players seem on the passive side in these spots, with their preflop thinking being that they want to flop something big before getting the moneys in. To make matters worse, when you bet on all these flops your hand insta looks like exactly what it is. It's not like your fooling someone into thinking that your cbetting AK on these boards, or that KK is going to be underepped by any means. With that said, bet / dying to everyone who raises on flop #2 feels really really bad for those reasons (which is kinda why I posed the question). And betting flop #3 is awkward because are we betting again on blank turns? Like say you bet $350, and Villan #1 calls. Are you barreling a turn 4? For value (vs his flatted JJ/QQ hands?) And if you check I guess it's to check/fold to Villan #1's turn bet? Flop 3 seems like a spot where you're only getting two streets. Most of the interesting spots come vs Villan #1 on these flops since his actions will be the most straight forward (having to worry about the 3 people behind him etc...) Bet / stacking off on flop #1 seems kinda standard / obv. Flop #2 and #3 are the ones that are more interesting. Betting / stacking vs all on any flop becomes more standard when your opponents are going to properly jam any decent piece of the flop / draws etc, they pick up. For the most part, these are not the type of people I'm talking about.

I don't think it's interesting as you think it is, in fact your outplaying yourself by thinking otherwise.

The stackot ratio pretty much dictates your play here, there is really no other alternatives since you don't want to give a free card to the field.

1. bet 650-700
2. bet 850-900
3. bet 450-500

all decisions from there should usually be very straightforward since the only player who could MAYBE put you to a decision is the guy with by far the worst relative position in the hand

you have fps/are trying to avoid variance needlessly if you are doing anything else in these spots

check 1-2 bet #3, maybe even check #3

So this is super interesting to me and I don't wanna disrupt the conversation but

What are you thinking about when you bet here? It seems like everything is centered around isolating one player with a range we generally dominate, but there's so much that goes into that with 4 players to the flop and our terrible position, which I think doesn't matter too much after we fire our cbet because we're shoving a lot of turns. What goes into our decision to fold if we get shoved on at any point in the hand after cbetting? What can we estimate to be their ranges and how does that affect our decision? Is it just the case that there's so much money in the pot that we're just trying to get everything in the mid and hope our kings hold?

And in stark contrast, Tom says to check all 3 spots. What are we calling/raising/folding to after our check? I'm assuming we're not giving up on the hand in any of the spots unless they give us a good reason to. We're hoping that player 1 or 2 makes a bet that puts the others off the hand so we can isolate? Or are we just folding everything bigger than some amount? Is there any spot/amount that we'd call and evaluate turn on?

Thanks .

On December 07 2011 04:11 offsuit wrote: So this is super interesting to me and I don't wanna disrupt the conversation but What are you thinking about when you bet here? It seems like everything is centered around isolating one player with a range we generally dominate, but there's so much that goes into that with 4 players to the flop and our terrible position, which I think doesn't matter too much after we fire our cbet because we're shoving a lot of turns. What goes into our decision to fold if we get shoved on at any point in the hand after cbetting? What can we estimate to be their ranges and how does that affect our decision? Is it just the case that there's so much money in the pot that we're just trying to get everything in the mid and hope our kings hold? And in stark contrast, Tom says to check all 3 spots. What are we calling/raising/folding to after our check? I'm assuming we're not giving up on the hand in any of the spots unless they give us a good reason to. We're hoping that player 1 or 2 makes a bet that puts the others off the hand so we can isolate? Or are we just folding everything bigger than some amount? Is there any spot/amount that we'd call and evaluate turn on? Thanks .

I don't think some people posting in this thread fully understand that you're not really fooling anyone into thinking you have worse than QQ here when you bet with how the action is unless your image is suicidal. Like... literally no one with half a brain decides this is a good spot to continue their aggression with AKo or something of that nature. Flop 1 is pretty straight forward, betting is clearly best line vs most all opponents. Flop 2 is gross if you think of how your opponents ranges smash that board. Checking is gross caz if it checks through, 90% of turn cards make your situation even worse. Betting is fine until you get shoved on in which case you most likely have to cry call vs the shorter 3 stacks because there is so much money in there. With that said it's kind of surprising how many people think betting is the most optimal line for flop 3? Assuming you bet out on flop 3, we are seeking value from exactly what? TT-QQ? Hands that will most likely bet anyways if it gets checked to them? Getting flop 3 checked through isn't that terrible... we don't want an ace?

How deep do the stacks need to be before our flop decisions change on these boards? Or are the stacks irrelevant and we are just going to bet out because there is a lot of money out there and we has overpair derp derp?

On November 27 2011 18:28 TalentedTom wrote: check 1-2 bet #3, maybe even check #3

This feels like a troll post. Possibly...

If we're called on flop 1 after we cbet, are we trying to get all in on most bricked turns after a ~2/3 continuation on the flop? I'm assuming that even an idiot would four bet aces preflop with that action, so as long as they don't raise us are we trying to take down the pot on the turn against a range that has to be something like sets/combo draws/QQ/KK/AKs/AQs/KQs? I don't know that I'm good enough to lay down to a flop reraise here hahaha.

Flop 2 is one of those "fuck this game" flops and I'd probably lose a bet cursing. I think check/fold is retarded but loses you less money in the long run against four loose idiots.

Flop 3 I think check/calling and leading the turn on anything but an ace is pretty straightforward. If we get played back at we snapcall and it's a cooler if they had 99 or turned a boat? I don't think there are a lot of AA here except from maybe the villain immediately to our left and even then I wouldn't believe him. It's hard to convince me any idiot is playing 22 here and we're scared of exactly 99, 6 combos of AA, the case kings which we have initiative on and 3 combos of the turn card if it's ~above an 8? I think if it's checked through and a 7-10 hits (not including a 9 which we're happy about?) we can make a stronger case to bet/fold turn, but if they bet after my check I think I'm just calling flop and betting turn pretty heavily if not shipping anything under a 10. Seems stupid not to try to take this one down on the turn or see a showdown if we're called.

Enlighten me on this.

I mean its hard to flop sets. Your hand is just way ahead of your opponents for this reason, and since giving a free card is terrible on flops 1 and 2 its an easy bet. Once you've been shoved on with the odds your getting even against the deepest villain its an easy call. You shouldn't necessarily feel happy about it, but with infinite combo draws in their range there's just no way you can fold. You could resort to stoving it if you aren't convinced. If the deepest villain is a buyin deeper we can turn off autobet.

Hand 3 is a bit different, and in this case the idea that we are never betting with AKo does not apply. Your opponents have no reason not to think you aren't just repping KK with AKo on such a dry flop, so they'll sometimes get stubborn w/ their small pairs.

On December 08 2011 05:25 offsuit wrote: Flop 3 I think check/calling and leading the turn on anything but an ace is pretty straightforward.

That's about the least straightforward play there is. Its essentially the same as a flop check/raise except you're giving your opponent a free card.

I see. That makes a lot of sense. I think I was trying to extract value by masking my hand strength but I guess that's really easy to see through? And I guess we're not looking to give anyone a free card, yeah, that's true, even if we aren't scared of much.

Also I think check/call has the added value of maybe bringing along more money than a check/raise into a turn most hands are not likely to improve on, but I guess defending our pot/reverse deception is more important? If that's the case then leading seems strong.

And I think in all three of these hands with five players to the flop at least one person after us is going to make a bet. Is there any situation where it would check through to the turn on 1/2?

Last post and I'll be out of your thread .

stacks are simply too shallow. say everyone has 3-4k stacks...then flop 2 is a very easy chk/evaluate.

i feel you jc, live poker has a much different dynamic

also there's something about getting dealt AA/KK like once a day vs being dealt it online over 4 tables of 60 hands/hour.

The best line here would be to stare at the board long and hard...grab some chips...try to shuffle but fail cuz we are too "nervous" then reluctantly bet. when someone shoves u SNAP CALL.

On December 07 2011 11:21 JonnyCosMo wrote: Show nested quote + On November 27 2011 18:28 TalentedTom wrote: check 1-2 bet #3, maybe even check #3 This feels like a troll post. Possibly...

I think betting in hand #1 and 2 looks too strong since we are almost never bluffing OOP vs 3 other plaeyers here on these board textures. I think also if you check and the action goes bet, call fold, you can easily shove, or anything similar to that - furthermore if the action goes bet call raise we have a preety easy fold. I really like checking here with the intention of check all in way more then betting OOP into 3 players.

I think hand #3 is the best flop to bet since our bluffing range is huge,its a good spot / board texture for a very small bet with our entire 3b range

After you squeeze, the entire table is looking / focused at you to fire a c-bet, when you dont, its gonna open up a ton of action that would not be there had you c-bet. When you bet people are gonna play very straight vs your bet, your basically playing your equity and hoping u went outflopped, where if u check, people are gonna take a ton of stabs at the pot with the assumption your always check folding your AK