Bloated Pot Spots (Part 1 of Possibly Many)

Kinda wanna get a little discussion going, since a lot of this is shit you never see online. I guess I'll give a few examples of gross spots:

Soft live $5/10 game. All villans in this hand seem bad in different ways, mostly being too loose preflop. For the most part lets say most of these guys are unknown to you. Villan #1 opens to $30 in ep, w $2,500 effective stack. Villan #2 calls behind him ($1800 stack). Villan #3 calls in the CO ($700 stack) and Villan #4 ($1500 stack) calls on the button. You are in the BB with and squeeze to $200. You cover all. Villan #1,2,3, and 4 all call. $1k in pot (lol, nice game eh?). Lets talk about 3 different flops:

Stacks:
BB- Hero ($3,000)
UTG+2- Villan #1 ($2,500)
MP- Villan #2 ($1,800)
CO- VIllan #3 ($700)
BTN- Villan #4 ($1500)


Flop: (Pot: $1,000)
Overall gameplan for some outcomes on a flop like this?

Flop: (Pot: $1,000)
Lets make it harder, how about this flop?

Flop: (Pot: $1,000)
This?

squeeze bigger pre ?

200 Is already pretty big I think, big enough that it usually wont go 4 way at least.



First flop I would probably lead 500 and fold to a raise from v1, but stack off to one of the other three, just because of them shoving draws.

Second no clue, check fold probably, except maybe call the shortstack.

Third I would lead out really small, like 300.

betting every flop. how is this even a question?

all in every flop

i hope there will be only 1 part.

On November 20 2011 06:51 wobbly_au wrote: betting every flop. how is this even a question?

Whats your sizing and your plan vs each villan on these flops? Like are you just betting pot in every pot and seat-belting your hand from there?

In flop 2 a good play would be to bet, accidentally flip over the Kd then when he shoves flip the other card over and go "GOTCHA BITCH"

actually this is a great topic.

I reviewed it for a second time, now I like check shoving all boards regardless of what the action is when it gets back to you.

On November 20 2011 18:30 n0rthf4ce wrote: In flop 2 a good play would be to bet, accidentally flip over the Kd then when he shoves flip the other card over and go "GOTCHA BITCH"

lol this is kinda genius

cbetting every flop between $300-$450 depending on texture. beyond that, there are sooooo many situations that can arise. But i'm cbetting because i'm pretty happy with getting it in vs most the situations that can come after your cbet. Your odds to call a shove are going to get better and better for every all in so even if people show a ton of strength you will still be calling alot of the time.

I'd squeeze like a boss as well, like at least $260 because this is live poker.

On November 19 2011 15:27 MiPwnYa wrote: squeeze bigger pre ?

Maybe to get more value, getting this 5 ways vs fish isn't a bad thing.

On November 20 2011 06:51 wobbly_au wrote: betting every flop. how is this even a question?

This. Hand 3 maybe we can bet 1/3 pot and possibly fold w/ too much action or a read, but the other two I don't see any other choice than betting close to pot and going with it. I hate checking, there's just too great a chance all these fish will just check behind.

I want to talk more about what to do vs action from the different stacks after the flop bet.

It's really not that deep. Just call everything.

all of ur posts in highstakes is really really bad.. u ask the wrong questions. These 3 are super standard ABC spot to just bet other than hand 3 ur play should be pretty straight forward.. a 1/2 reg can tell u that.

its pretty much a betcall on all boards except sick reads and the only perosn im ever considering folding against HU on certains boards is the 2500 stack. if he didnt exist i would betcall a jam 100% as long as everyone else folds also my sizing would be around 480 or so on every board except the #2 id go like 580 then

too vague of a question i think...depends too much

I suppose, I guess I would need to describe each villan more indepth, or maybe just start off w one flop. Most live players seem on the passive side in these spots, with their preflop thinking being that they want to flop something big before getting the moneys in. To make matters worse, when you bet on all these flops your hand insta looks like exactly what it is. It's not like your fooling someone into thinking that your cbetting AK on these boards, or that KK is going to be underepped by any means. With that said, bet / dying to everyone who raises on flop #2 feels really really bad for those reasons (which is kinda why I posed the question). And betting flop #3 is awkward because are we betting again on blank turns? Like say you bet $350, and Villan #1 calls. Are you barreling a turn 4? For value (vs his flatted JJ/QQ hands?) And if you check I guess it's to check/fold to Villan #1's turn bet? Flop 3 seems like a spot where you're only getting two streets. Most of the interesting spots come vs Villan #1 on these flops since his actions will be the most straight forward (having to worry about the 3 people behind him etc...)

Bet / stacking off on flop #1 seems kinda standard / obv. Flop #2 and #3 are the ones that are more interesting.

Betting / stacking vs all on any flop becomes more standard when your opponents are going to properly jam any decent piece of the flop / draws etc, they pick up. For the most part, these are not the type of people I'm talking about.

Betting with AK on flops 1 and 2 is terrible because players call and shove with a lot more than just sets which is why bet/calling with KK is so profitable. I don't see why flop 2 is so different from flop 1.

I think bet/bet and bet/call are both fine on flop 3. The only way I'm folding is with a live read or multiple action.

this is live poker and while a lot of the lines mentioned play well online because of peoples more polarized ranges for getting hands into the pot, in a live game people are playing very predictably in tons of spots.

So in hand one I think is the easiest check from all three on the flop. You check so your opponents will think your range is immedietly weaker then it seems and adjust incorrectly by playing their weaker part of their range more aggressively, and any hand that would be calling on the flop is very likely to betting when its checked to them, this with the possibility of making a hero muck with some insane action, (like player 3 and player 4 putting in money into the pot and you still and you still have player 1 and 2 behind you) also dont just assume that if player 2 or 3 bet and everyone folds your entitled to just check the turn again.

Hand two is different. I think this flop is a mantatory bet, live players will often check back hands like 8T, TJ, QT, Q9, and some flush draws.

While what i said may seem like it contradicts each other becuase you would assume the same opponents are likely to check back similar hands on both boards, I think the two boards play out differently, while their is a higher total hand combination of draws, the draws are a lot less deceptive in comparison. In hand number one a Q,9,7,4 all complete open enders and double guttshots, while in hand two only a Q and a J would make a deceptive straight, and all the remaining cards that complete draws are very obvious scare cards, basically what im trying to say is live players are way more likely to bet a boards with deceptive hand value then a board where the all the draws are obvious.

In the third hand i personally like to bet the flop small, like 250. I think checking back on the flop would be bad, if it gets checked around and the turn comes 8, T, J , Q, K, and A you lose your market for all the hands that would of floated you. also its much easier to get your opponents to make a mistake in a HU pot on the turn, then a multi way pot on the turn.

You have 1½ PSB left in a pot with lot of money. Only person that can get us to fold is Villain 1 and his range and action is some what capped because of his preflop position and players left to act.

It's hard to have a discussion when the GTO play is clearly a bet.

Turn can be somewhat interesting to some when facing 3+ way action since Villain 1 can be slow playing monster to draw others in. I doubt it'll be worthy of any discussion though.

Next hand pls

andrewsong is the nuts

On November 23 2011 14:55 DooMeR wrote: casinocasino is the nuts

all are bets obviously. you cant check and fold if it goes bet/raise cause this is holdem and people will get it in worse. you can bet and fold if villain 1 raises on probably 986, others you can only fold if it goes raise/3bet behind you or raise/cold call on 992

--- Nuked ---

On November 22 2011 14:54 JonnyCosMo wrote: I suppose, I guess I would need to describe each villan more indepth, or maybe just start off w one flop. Most live players seem on the passive side in these spots, with their preflop thinking being that they want to flop something big before getting the moneys in. To make matters worse, when you bet on all these flops your hand insta looks like exactly what it is. It's not like your fooling someone into thinking that your cbetting AK on these boards, or that KK is going to be underepped by any means. With that said, bet / dying to everyone who raises on flop #2 feels really really bad for those reasons (which is kinda why I posed the question). And betting flop #3 is awkward because are we betting again on blank turns? Like say you bet $350, and Villan #1 calls. Are you barreling a turn 4? For value (vs his flatted JJ/QQ hands?) And if you check I guess it's to check/fold to Villan #1's turn bet? Flop 3 seems like a spot where you're only getting two streets. Most of the interesting spots come vs Villan #1 on these flops since his actions will be the most straight forward (having to worry about the 3 people behind him etc...) Bet / stacking off on flop #1 seems kinda standard / obv. Flop #2 and #3 are the ones that are more interesting. Betting / stacking vs all on any flop becomes more standard when your opponents are going to properly jam any decent piece of the flop / draws etc, they pick up. For the most part, these are not the type of people I'm talking about.

I don't think it's interesting as you think it is, in fact your outplaying yourself by thinking otherwise.

The stackot ratio pretty much dictates your play here, there is really no other alternatives since you don't want to give a free card to the field.

1. bet 650-700
2. bet 850-900
3. bet 450-500

all decisions from there should usually be very straightforward since the only player who could MAYBE put you to a decision is the guy with by far the worst relative position in the hand

you have fps/are trying to avoid variance needlessly if you are doing anything else in these spots

check 1-2 bet #3, maybe even check #3

So this is super interesting to me and I don't wanna disrupt the conversation but

What are you thinking about when you bet here? It seems like everything is centered around isolating one player with a range we generally dominate, but there's so much that goes into that with 4 players to the flop and our terrible position, which I think doesn't matter too much after we fire our cbet because we're shoving a lot of turns. What goes into our decision to fold if we get shoved on at any point in the hand after cbetting? What can we estimate to be their ranges and how does that affect our decision? Is it just the case that there's so much money in the pot that we're just trying to get everything in the mid and hope our kings hold?

And in stark contrast, Tom says to check all 3 spots. What are we calling/raising/folding to after our check? I'm assuming we're not giving up on the hand in any of the spots unless they give us a good reason to. We're hoping that player 1 or 2 makes a bet that puts the others off the hand so we can isolate? Or are we just folding everything bigger than some amount? Is there any spot/amount that we'd call and evaluate turn on?

Thanks .

On December 07 2011 04:11 offsuit wrote: So this is super interesting to me and I don't wanna disrupt the conversation but What are you thinking about when you bet here? It seems like everything is centered around isolating one player with a range we generally dominate, but there's so much that goes into that with 4 players to the flop and our terrible position, which I think doesn't matter too much after we fire our cbet because we're shoving a lot of turns. What goes into our decision to fold if we get shoved on at any point in the hand after cbetting? What can we estimate to be their ranges and how does that affect our decision? Is it just the case that there's so much money in the pot that we're just trying to get everything in the mid and hope our kings hold? And in stark contrast, Tom says to check all 3 spots. What are we calling/raising/folding to after our check? I'm assuming we're not giving up on the hand in any of the spots unless they give us a good reason to. We're hoping that player 1 or 2 makes a bet that puts the others off the hand so we can isolate? Or are we just folding everything bigger than some amount? Is there any spot/amount that we'd call and evaluate turn on? Thanks .

I don't think some people posting in this thread fully understand that you're not really fooling anyone into thinking you have worse than QQ here when you bet with how the action is unless your image is suicidal. Like... literally no one with half a brain decides this is a good spot to continue their aggression with AKo or something of that nature. Flop 1 is pretty straight forward, betting is clearly best line vs most all opponents. Flop 2 is gross if you think of how your opponents ranges smash that board. Checking is gross caz if it checks through, 90% of turn cards make your situation even worse. Betting is fine until you get shoved on in which case you most likely have to cry call vs the shorter 3 stacks because there is so much money in there. With that said it's kind of surprising how many people think betting is the most optimal line for flop 3? Assuming you bet out on flop 3, we are seeking value from exactly what? TT-QQ? Hands that will most likely bet anyways if it gets checked to them? Getting flop 3 checked through isn't that terrible... we don't want an ace?

How deep do the stacks need to be before our flop decisions change on these boards? Or are the stacks irrelevant and we are just going to bet out because there is a lot of money out there and we has overpair derp derp?

On November 27 2011 18:28 TalentedTom wrote: check 1-2 bet #3, maybe even check #3

This feels like a troll post. Possibly...

If we're called on flop 1 after we cbet, are we trying to get all in on most bricked turns after a ~2/3 continuation on the flop? I'm assuming that even an idiot would four bet aces preflop with that action, so as long as they don't raise us are we trying to take down the pot on the turn against a range that has to be something like sets/combo draws/QQ/KK/AKs/AQs/KQs? I don't know that I'm good enough to lay down to a flop reraise here hahaha.

Flop 2 is one of those "fuck this game" flops and I'd probably lose a bet cursing. I think check/fold is retarded but loses you less money in the long run against four loose idiots.

Flop 3 I think check/calling and leading the turn on anything but an ace is pretty straightforward. If we get played back at we snapcall and it's a cooler if they had 99 or turned a boat? I don't think there are a lot of AA here except from maybe the villain immediately to our left and even then I wouldn't believe him. It's hard to convince me any idiot is playing 22 here and we're scared of exactly 99, 6 combos of AA, the case kings which we have initiative on and 3 combos of the turn card if it's ~above an 8? I think if it's checked through and a 7-10 hits (not including a 9 which we're happy about?) we can make a stronger case to bet/fold turn, but if they bet after my check I think I'm just calling flop and betting turn pretty heavily if not shipping anything under a 10. Seems stupid not to try to take this one down on the turn or see a showdown if we're called.

Enlighten me on this.

I mean its hard to flop sets. Your hand is just way ahead of your opponents for this reason, and since giving a free card is terrible on flops 1 and 2 its an easy bet. Once you've been shoved on with the odds your getting even against the deepest villain its an easy call. You shouldn't necessarily feel happy about it, but with infinite combo draws in their range there's just no way you can fold. You could resort to stoving it if you aren't convinced. If the deepest villain is a buyin deeper we can turn off autobet.

Hand 3 is a bit different, and in this case the idea that we are never betting with AKo does not apply. Your opponents have no reason not to think you aren't just repping KK with AKo on such a dry flop, so they'll sometimes get stubborn w/ their small pairs.

On December 08 2011 05:25 offsuit wrote: Flop 3 I think check/calling and leading the turn on anything but an ace is pretty straightforward.

That's about the least straightforward play there is. Its essentially the same as a flop check/raise except you're giving your opponent a free card.

I see. That makes a lot of sense. I think I was trying to extract value by masking my hand strength but I guess that's really easy to see through? And I guess we're not looking to give anyone a free card, yeah, that's true, even if we aren't scared of much.

Also I think check/call has the added value of maybe bringing along more money than a check/raise into a turn most hands are not likely to improve on, but I guess defending our pot/reverse deception is more important? If that's the case then leading seems strong.

And I think in all three of these hands with five players to the flop at least one person after us is going to make a bet. Is there any situation where it would check through to the turn on 1/2?

Last post and I'll be out of your thread .

stacks are simply too shallow. say everyone has 3-4k stacks...then flop 2 is a very easy chk/evaluate.

i feel you jc, live poker has a much different dynamic

also there's something about getting dealt AA/KK like once a day vs being dealt it online over 4 tables of 60 hands/hour.

The best line here would be to stare at the board long and hard...grab some chips...try to shuffle but fail cuz we are too "nervous" then reluctantly bet. when someone shoves u SNAP CALL.

On December 07 2011 11:21 JonnyCosMo wrote: Show nested quote + On November 27 2011 18:28 TalentedTom wrote: check 1-2 bet #3, maybe even check #3 This feels like a troll post. Possibly...

I think betting in hand #1 and 2 looks too strong since we are almost never bluffing OOP vs 3 other plaeyers here on these board textures. I think also if you check and the action goes bet, call fold, you can easily shove, or anything similar to that - furthermore if the action goes bet call raise we have a preety easy fold. I really like checking here with the intention of check all in way more then betting OOP into 3 players.

I think hand #3 is the best flop to bet since our bluffing range is huge,its a good spot / board texture for a very small bet with our entire 3b range

After you squeeze, the entire table is looking / focused at you to fire a c-bet, when you dont, its gonna open up a ton of action that would not be there had you c-bet. When you bet people are gonna play very straight vs your bet, your basically playing your equity and hoping u went outflopped, where if u check, people are gonna take a ton of stabs at the pot with the assumption your always check folding your AK

I actually really like Tom's thought process and did think he might've been trolling earlier lol

It's kinda genius actually. I like it

TalentedTom is like secret genius imo

On December 20 2011 11:00 TalentedTom wrote: After you squeeze, the entire table is looking / focused at you to fire a c-bet, when you dont, its gonna open up a ton of action that would not be there had you c-bet. When you bet people are gonna play very straight vs your bet, your basically playing your equity and hoping u went outflopped, where if u check, people are gonna take a ton of stabs at the pot with the assumption your always check folding your AK

not in live play they wont.

On December 28 2011 20:47 wobbly_au wrote: Show nested quote + On December 20 2011 11:00 TalentedTom wrote: After you squeeze, the entire table is looking / focused at you to fire a c-bet, when you dont, its gonna open up a ton of action that would not be there had you c-bet. When you bet people are gonna play very straight vs your bet, your basically playing your equity and hoping u went outflopped, where if u check, people are gonna take a ton of stabs at the pot with the assumption your always check folding your AK not in live play they wont.

Care to elaborate?

Or are you just going to leave us with this awesome and insightful post

I was saying that live players arent going to simply assume you have AK because you 3bet and checked. And if when they do they arent going to bet, because lets face it live players are way passive and i can see more live players checking toppair even in the last to act position in a 3bet pot than those who dont.

On December 29 2011 07:01 wobbly_au wrote: I was saying that live players arent going to simply assume you have AK because you 3bet and checked. And if when they do they arent going to bet, because lets face it live players are way passive and i can see more live players checking toppair even in the last to act position in a 3bet pot than those who dont.

I don't know how much live experience you have but I really disagree with this post

I'd think most live players would always assume you would bet over pairs in all 3 spots and when you don't, then they expect you to have nothing which is why I wouldn't put it past your avg live player to bluff when checked to in these spots. They would FOR SURE be betting something with top pair a good amt

On January 02 2012 05:21 TimDawg wrote: Show nested quote + On December 29 2011 07:01 wobbly_au wrote: I was saying that live players arent going to simply assume you have AK because you 3bet and checked. And if when they do they arent going to bet, because lets face it live players are way passive and i can see more live players checking toppair even in the last to act position in a 3bet pot than those who dont. I don't know how much live experience you have but I really disagree with this post I'd think most live players would always assume you would bet over pairs in all 3 spots and when you don't, then they expect you to have nothing which is why I wouldn't put it past your avg live player to bluff when checked to in these spots. They would FOR SURE be betting something with top pair a good amt

They might bet to "see where theyre at" but that makes it a better spot to check-shove as a bluff since they'll bet/fold a buncha value hands. It really depends on the villains in the hand. If they are your average winning live regfish I think wobbly is right and they will check back any top pair as well as bad overpairs for fear of the check shove and betting is probably better since they will call with their crappy overpairs at least once and pair+straight draws and only ship a really strong range.

edit: i was referring to a hand where you sqz out of the blinds and have multi way action on a coordinated board fwiw; didn't think about any other situations but it applies to a lesser extent on the dry boards too I think.

On December 20 2011 11:00 TalentedTom wrote: After you squeeze, the entire table is looking / focused at you to fire a c-bet, when you dont, its gonna open up a ton of action that would not be there had you c-bet. When you bet people are gonna play very straight vs your bet, your basically playing your equity and hoping u went outflopped, where if u check, people are gonna take a ton of stabs at the pot with the assumption your always check folding your AK

I disagree strongly to bolded. Players will play straight forward regardless of your bet. It's a huge mistake not to bet when you'll lose value, lose initiative, give a freecard and also open your self up to making bigger mistake on future streets whether by folding the best hand or calling with worst.

^I kind of agree with that. I was "impressed" by nittness of live players in London casinos to the point I had to reevaluate my bluffing/vbetting ranges .
(nl200/400 GBP though). Higher it's the opposite from what I've seen . So it depends.