Half a year after the terrorist explosion in Stockholm, Sweden it seems like Oslo, Norway been targeted. A huge explosion detonated today hitting important government buildings.
"Update: 12:11a.m. ET, 6:11p.m. Oslo] State TV broadcaster NRK confirmed at least two people are dead following an explosion that rocked downtown Oslo, Norway."
I'm waiting for the usual swedish reactions... we need to respect muslims and dont blaim any specific group of people. Anyone else is islamofobic obv... We need to keep letting everybody cross our boarders bla bla! (Well not going to be totally unjust here untill its proven whos behind this, but just days ago a extrem muslim terrorist living in Norway threatened about just this happenin if they didnt let him stay in the country, he has been judged to kill severel people and was about to get deported back to Iraq).
mod edit - can we at least start spoilering images of dead people please
clooooose the god damn borders already, we have what, 20% immigrants of the entire population, this can lead to no good and will be the demise of our nation(s). do it like finland, they don't let ppl in and as a result they're much better off today in many aspects compared to sweden and norway.
On July 22 2011 11:41 Stygg wrote:
yeah just incinerate all these fucking terrorists
clooooose the god damn borders already, we have what, 20% immigrants of the entire population, this can lead to no good and will be the demise of our nation(s). do it like finland, they don't let ppl in and as a result they're much better off today in many aspects compared to sweden and norway.
call me racist i dont care, close the border now
It's not racism, just one group of people are fucking murderers so I agree, hell I wouldn't want any extreme muslim near me either, too bad you gotta categorize everyone that looks the same but i say for the muslims just deal with it and try to make it better.
I mean im peruvian and here in south america we have (or used to have) a terrible reputation because a lot of countrymen have gone to other countries and robbed/etc., so now I just have to deal with it, i don't get offended if other people may think i'm like that because ITS TRUE, theres many peruvians like me that have done that, they have even muggled myself, so I don't see how I can complain and I feel like my duty is just to try and fix it slowly in anyway I can.
Muslims : Murderers are being traind at your own countries, fucking do something about it
bitte bitte bitte bitte bitte bitte
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NMcNasty United States. Jul 22 2011 13:31. Posts 2041
Kinda weird that there was a shooting by "someone dressed as a policeman" at a youth camp. It doesn't seem like you're typical Muslim terrorist style.
On July 22 2011 12:31 NMcNasty wrote:
Kinda weird that there was a shooting by "someone dressed as a policeman" at a youth camp. It doesn't seem like you're typical Muslim terrorist style.
yeah i dont think that has anything related to do with the bomb exploding inside Oslo
On July 22 2011 11:41 Stygg wrote:
yeah just incinerate all these fucking terrorists
clooooose the god damn borders already, we have what, 20% immigrants of the entire population, this can lead to no good and will be the demise of our nation(s). do it like finland, they don't let ppl in and as a result they're much better off today in many aspects compared to sweden and norway.
call me racist i dont care, close the border now
It's not racism, just one group of people are fucking murderers so I agree, hell I wouldn't want any extreme muslim near me either, too bad you gotta categorize everyone that looks the same but i say for the muslims just deal with it and try to make it better.
I mean im peruvian and here in south america we have (or used to have) a terrible reputation because a lot of countrymen have gone to other countries and robbed/etc., so now I just have to deal with it, i don't get offended if other people may think i'm like that because ITS TRUE, theres many peruvians like me that have done that, they have even muggled myself, so I don't see how I can complain and I feel like my duty is just to try and fix it slowly in anyway I can.
Muslims : Murderers are being traind at your own countries, fucking do something about it
yeah almost everybody is a little racist these days and it's getting to be more ok with everyone to be that way
deep down i know i'm a humanist. if it was up to me, i'd let everyone in if there was any way of knowing they were good people. everyone! unfortunately there's no way of knowing who's gonna be a welfare leech, a terrorist, or a good person helping society.
but if you let in nearly a million africans/arabs who have totally fucked up their own nations and are 300 years behind the western world's thinking in terms of human rights, women's rights etc etc, what's bound to happen? yes, they will slowly but surely fuck up your nation as well. i dont wanna come off a bitter old man but this country was miles better when i grew up and we only had a select few south americans and chinese/vietnamese immigrants. it wasn't a big melting pot and it was easier for them to adapt, and for us to adapt to them.
i really hate what has become of the scandinavian countries since the 90's and see no quick or even long-term fix to the problem. very sad indeed.
Stygg do you read at http://politisktinkorrekt.info/ ? If not, i can recommend that site, opened my eyes half a year ago to how fucked up things have really became in this country =/
On July 22 2011 12:40 Balzamon wrote:
Stygg do you read at http://politisktinkorrekt.info/ ? If not, i can recommend that site, opened my eyes half a year ago to how fucked up things have really became in this country =/
haven't heard of that site before but i'm slowly converting from left to right, politically. i want to keep my ideals but it's very challenging imo.
have bookmarked the site and will read up on it.
but i already know how bad things are in this country, im not sure i need to know more bad things lol.
i fear i might vote SD next election probably not, but tempting.
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palak United States. Jul 22 2011 13:49. Posts 4601
what are sweden/norway immigration laws?
dont tap the glass...im about ready to take a fucking hammer to the aquarium
I'm inclined to agree. I wouldn't go as far as to say that africans/arabs are 300 years behind the western world's thinking, but rather I would attack the angle of the present western cultural positioning as being a land where we can help everyone to improve their lives.
This is peculiar to me from two angles. First, it creates a system which we have now where people feel "well, my country sucks, let's leave." What is the end result of this? As it is now in Ireland we have like 30 trillion Poles working and living here. Now it appears Poland is improving and they are leaving in noticeable numbers presumably to return to Poland. It appears what we have now is a group cultural mentality of "leave for new opportunity" then return if your homeland no longer sucks. Don't quote me on this but I believe something absurd like upwards of 30% of Latvia's 18-30 demographic has left the country since the new EU living regulations allow them to live anywhere in the EU. This is awful. Sure it might be better short term for the individual, but how can a country ever improve if the entire fucking planet tries to live in London or Stockholm? In effect humans are mass migrating to hot spots, pillaging them of resources, then leaving again. I fear a future where the concept of "home" and the pride people have in caring for their homeland (in both a macro and micro sense) is all but ancient history.
Secondly, there seems to be a popular political concept that the western world is the "first" world and ideal for human life. Despite the contradictions to this in various happiness indices, there is a definite popular belief in many western (especially Scandinavian) political groups that life in the "west" is ideal and it is "our" duty to provide this great life to people of other parts of the world. Who are we to say it is not preferable for someone to maintain a hunter gatherer lifestyle. If you are born and raised in the west you would never know any different, but it seems hugely egotistical to presume your way of life is superior simply because you have more electronic machines.
I really do think it's time for the west to leave other countries alone. It's painfully obvious to me that this middle ground the west is in where they provide aid to numerous countries while taking in a large amount of their immigrants is not beneficial to anyone. The aid doesnt hit it's target in the "poor" countries, the people who are most capable of fixing the poor country leave for the "rich" country, and all thats left in the poor country is corruption and more instability.
Blah, I'm tired and on a real tangent here, and I'm not even 100% sure on how I feel about all of this, but I'm pretty confident that current global immigration trends are having negative cultural relations effects.
On September 08 2008 10:07 Baal wrote: my head is a gyroscope, your argument is invalid
I also think it will suck balls when I have kids someday and we go on a trip to Stockholm and the entire downtown has signs in Somali, Arabic, Turkish, and whatever. It's really cool that we grew up in a world where the culture difference between London, Stockholm and Ankara was vast. It seems at this rate in 100 years if you dropped someone in Stockholm, Paris, Berlin, New York, wherever, they wouldn't even be able to tell which country they were in until they heard people speaking. I mean, I was just in Amsterdam and literally this entire street was Turkish Doner places with English signs. If you didn't know where it was you'd be 100% unable to differentiate between that street in Netherlands and any street in the Bronx.
On September 08 2008 10:07 Baal wrote: my head is a gyroscope, your argument is invalid
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NewbSaibot United States. Jul 22 2011 14:02. Posts 4949
There is definitely a problem with young Muslim men at the moment. Is it because they're Muslim? No. Is it because they're men? No. But Muslim Men as a category should require special scrutiny at the moment. For instance, any muslim man looking to immigrate into your country should require extensive background checks and be precluded from migrating until they have shown citizenship, or at least residence in a non-arab speaking country for no less than 5-10 years. I.E. if you are moving to Sweden or North America or what have you, coming straight from Pakistan, you are disqualified under all conditions. Show proof of residence in Africa or South America or whatever nation will accept you for at least 5 years as a sign of cohabitation with another culture. Since it is less likely these terrorists have the willpower to remain sleeper cells a quarter of their lives just so they can make it to your country and bomb it by the time they're 50, they can be "trusted" so to speak.
On July 22 2011 12:55 Zep wrote:
Sad sad news. Sealing borders and embracing bigotry doesn't prevent terrorism, but I understand the frustration.
its not about sealing the boarders from honest immigrants. Its about that today Scandinavia (except island and finland who are much more clever it seems) its a huge DUMP for people from midwest/africa with very doubtfull backgrounds to come in here and stay. It doesnt matter if they pure juridicial dont get approval to stay, our system is very fucked up and its almost impossible to deport them after they passed our boarders. As for the example of the extreme muslim who threatened leading politics in Norway recencly (and may be behind this) they decided he should have been deported back to Iraq YEARS ago, but they cant do it since he in Iraq may be punished to death for his terrorism, so its against our law to send him away, so instead he can live on taxpayers money on Norway and go on preeching his hate against western society, thats JUST SICK.
Its not about judging every muslim as a group, its about our fear to critisize islam one single bit so they can total run us over even letting well known criminals that hate our own country stay, and even get paid by us.
It's extremely interesting to note that an extremely poor Somalian with no work skills or education has a MUCH better chance of achieving Swedish residency/citizenship than a college educated American such as myself.
Same goes for Canada.
It's certainly the "nicer" immigration rule, but what does it realistically mean for the future of Sweden?
On September 08 2008 10:07 Baal wrote: my head is a gyroscope, your argument is invalid
I fear a future where the concept of "home" and the pride people have in caring for their homeland (in both a macro and micro sense) is all but ancient history.
Agreed!
I really do think it's time for the west to leave other countries alone. It's painfully obvious to me that this middle ground the west is in where they provide aid to numerous countries while taking in a large amount of their immigrants is not beneficial to anyone. The aid doesnt hit it's target in the "poor" countries, the people who are most capable of fixing the poor country leave for the "rich" country, and all thats left in the poor country is corruption and more instability.
Absolutely agreed. It's such a short-term fix to let 100,000 middle eastern/african ppl into this, or any, nation and just put them all in one place, i.e the already run down suburbs. It doesn't help them adapt, doesn't bring us closer, but actually further away from each other.
I am not man enough to have a better solution and if I see a poor family on TV living under horrible conditions, my first instinct is to want to help them, but I have no idea HOW. I just know that the current way is NOT the right way, was never the right way, and never will be.
That 300 years comment is obviously exaggerated, but only to drive the point across. We are just so different. They have the most inhumane laws and punishments, literally no women's rights, women are still forced to conceal their appearances with veils and stuff, this is CRAZY. Just crazy. There are tons more examples but these alone serve as sufficient points to show that we shouldn't just blindly let them in and expect things to go any other way than they currently are.
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blackjacki2 United States. Jul 22 2011 14:13. Posts 2582
I'm just getting here and but I haven't read anything about if the terrorists have been identified. Has it been confirmed that it was a muslim group or are people just speculating?
On July 22 2011 13:13 blackjacki2 wrote:
I'm just getting here and but I haven't read anything about if the terrorists have been identified. Has it been confirmed that it was a muslim group or are people just speculating?
Just speculations so far (the detonation was just hours ago). But there arent really any other threats to Norweigein government than from islam groups, some say its Al Qaida and other say its extreme islamist groups inside Norway. Norway is involved in NATO being in afghanistan so they have brought a lot of hate on them. But sure it could be some random madman as well i guess.
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kurtisturtle United States. Jul 22 2011 14:23. Posts 19
On July 22 2011 11:56 whamm! wrote:
Nords should stop being so passive with taking them in and start going viking law on these cunts.
viking anti-terrorist squad
VATS
im a noob
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blackjacki2 United States. Jul 22 2011 14:25. Posts 2582
Why can't it be a lone domestic terrorist like Timothy Mcveigh? Sound like it could just be someone pissed at government since he targeted a Socialist youth camp. wtf is a Socialist youth camp anyway? Sounds like some kind of indoctrination camp.
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kurtisturtle United States. Jul 22 2011 14:35. Posts 19
while theyre busy, i will be hard at work too, slaying most of these terrorists with my sword
Anyone who wants to work should be let in. If they engage in somewhat serious criminal activity and/or does not get any way of supporting themselves within X months we should kick them out.
Some fugitives could be allowed some slack on the 2nd point, but they should not be able to stay forever and live of the state.
The only way to fix our problems is to make it obvious to everyone that the immigrants help out economy and that assholes gets thrown out. We have enough of our own, don't need to import them.
We don't have Timothy Mcveigh-ish people here yet, but give us a few years of fuck up politicians and we'll have a bunch of them. Remember that Sweden have a proud tradition of "democracy by killing of the fucker if we can't vote him/her away".
Last edit: 22/07/2011 14:37
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kurtisturtle United States. Jul 22 2011 14:38. Posts 19
but seriously, condolences to those who lost a friend and family member. what happened isnt the world we all wish it can be, lets try to make it better
On July 22 2011 13:38 kurtisturtle wrote:
but seriously, condolences to those who lost a friend and family member. what happened isnt the world we all wish it can be, lets try to make it better
On July 22 2011 11:41 Stygg wrote:
yeah just incinerate all these fucking terrorists
clooooose the god damn borders already, we have what, 20% immigrants of the entire population, this can lead to no good and will be the demise of our nation(s). do it like finland, they don't let ppl in and as a result they're much better off today in many aspects compared to sweden and norway.
call me racist i dont care, close the border now
I agree. I couldn't care less what anyone thinks, especially those who are politically correct. Every single western country has to take some very huge measures to restrict immigration from Northern African and Middle Eastern countries. The sooner people stop calling people like us racists, xenophobes, etc and realize the truth is the day the world becomes a better place.
a minimum of 7 dead in the explosion now. But even worse is the maniac that killed children in the summercamp, witness says theres dead bodies everywhere, up to 25-30 kids...
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palak United States. Jul 22 2011 15:27. Posts 4601
A terror group, Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami (the Helpers of the Global Jihad), issued a statement claiming responsibility for the attack, according to Will McCants, a terrorism analyst at CNA, a research institute that studies terrorism. The message said the attack was a response to Norwegian forces' presence in Afghanistan and to unspecified insults to the Prophet Muhammad. "We have warned since the Stockholm raid of more operations," the group said, apparently referred to a bombing in Sweden in December 2010, according to Mr McCants' translation. "What you see is only the beginning, and there is more to come." The claim could not be confirmed.
From the summercamp shooting, i dont know yet if the crimes are connected or not, but i assume it is since i read the fake policeman got to the summercamp telling them it was a messure of securing them because of the bombing, but still just rumors. But so sick =(
there's definitely a connection between the slaughter at the youth camp (it's not a "socialist camp", it's "summercamp for members of the youth division of the labour party. no idea how it could be that mistranslated. ) and the bomb.. and the guy who committed those murders is reported to have been white and fluent in norwegian. right after the bombing I was certain that this was a case of islamic terrorism as a response to norway's engagement in afghanistan/libya. but right now I'm leaning more towards this being a timothy mcweighish event, where one guy placed the bomb and set it to detonate in x minutes, before he himself drove to the youth camp to start slaughtering youth, having accurately predicted that every nearby cop would be instructed to go to oslo so it'd take longer before he could be stopped.
the targetting of labour party (biggest in government) and their youth division is consistent with this. the possibility of this guy randomly choosing to attack the summer camp shortly after the bombing without it being a coordinated is virtually nonexistent, and the likelyhood of muslim terrorists allying with a norwegian crazy labour-party hater is about equally unlikely.
so whatever, this is a tragedy and trying to use this event as some sort of "justification for my hate of muslims" before any proof of islamic terrorists being guilty is fucking disgusting, and if anything, this response is proof of the importance of fighting racism and intolerance. OP, fuck you.
lol POKER
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palak United States. Jul 22 2011 15:40. Posts 4601
^
By nightfall in Norway, a fuller picture began to emerge of apparently coordinated terror attacks. Norwegian news media, citing the police, said a shooting suspect had been arrested and that he was connected to the Oslo explosions.
Drone, while i agree that dragging in politics right when this is happening and civilians is getting killed could be questionanble still i think its needed to discuss why such things as theese can happen, also i stated myself nothing was certain about whos responsible two times. As a poker player i think we can at least discuss using probability so long as you dont make direct claims, so a big fuck you right back for being so political correct you cant even discuss a huge problem, no matter who was resposible in this particular terror. The Swedish one was at least proved to be islamic-orientated.
Well so far in the Philippines they've been responsible for what? All the bombings in trains, airports and malls for the past 20 years. Most kidnappings of foreigners and locals alike in the southern mindanao (abu sayaff). Yet they are always being addressed as :"muslim brothers" in speeches and given a lot of money by our government to help alleviate the living conditions of some depressed areas, now if they just stopped kidnapping all the engineers being sent to that area and the journalists who try to give their side of the story (and help us understand). Most of them don't pay taxes and still government sucks their tit and bends over to let them fuck them in the ass. When will people ever learn that these people are not out to assimilate and adapt to our way of life but only to take the good shit and not give a fuck if we all drop dead tomorrow.
in ireland (christian vs christian conflict), they've been responsible for something like 0 out of 100 bombings. in spain (territorial conflict, something like 1 out of 100. im making up these latter numbers, but terrorism is not a strictly muslim thing.
suicide bombings are largely a strictly muslim thing (because they are less afraid to die than atheists and less afraid to commit suicide than christians), but terrorism happens because of extreme frustration and complete inability to accomplish goals peacefully, not because of religious conviction or disagreement with the western way of life or hatred of freedom and scantily clad women or whatever.
and I also thought this was done by muslims at first. I have no problems with you immediately thinking it was - it seemed most probable. (and it's still not impossible.) what I have a problem with is the notion that it confirms your belief that muslims must be kicked out of scandinavia, whereas your immediate response in actuality confirms my belief that racism and xenophobia are real problems that must be combatted. in fact, I got the impression that you were trying to capitalize on this tragedy to further your own political agenda, and that is absolutely offensive to me. hence the fuck you.
Nolan you dont like immigration yet you are from a country that is rooted in it and you yourself moved to another country so you could play poker because you couldnt back home? The irony is too much.
On July 22 2011 15:20 EvilSky wrote:
Nolan you dont like immigration yet you are from a country that is rooted in it and you yourself moved to another country so you could play poker because you couldnt back home? The irony is too much.
As long as he doesn't blow stuff up or be deliquent with his ISP payments I think we can let Nolan's ironies slide.
On July 22 2011 15:14 Liquid`Drone wrote:
in ireland (christian vs christian conflict), they've been responsible for something like 0 out of 100 bombings. in spain (territorial conflict, something like 1 out of 100. im making up these latter numbers, but terrorism is not a strictly muslim thing.
suicide bombings are largely a strictly muslim thing (because they are less afraid to die than atheists and less afraid to commit suicide than christians), but terrorism happens because of extreme frustration and complete inability to accomplish goals peacefully, not because of religious conviction or disagreement with the western way of life or hatred of freedom and scantily clad women or whatever.
and I also thought this was done by muslims at first. I have no problems with you immediately thinking it was - it seemed most probable. (and it's still not impossible.) what I have a problem with is the notion that it confirms your belief that muslims must be kicked out of scandinavia, whereas your immediate response in actuality confirms my belief that racism and xenophobia are real problems that must be combatted. in fact, I got the impression that you were trying to capitalize on this tragedy to further your own political agenda, and that is absolutely offensive to me. hence the fuck you.
Did you even read what i wrote or do you as all other leftwingers instantly pull out the "you're a racist" card and shove it up my face without further arguments? I did not, and will never write that i think muslims (as a group) should be kicked out of scandinavia. What i mentioned was the total irresponsible way we let immigrants (90% from islam countries like somalia) with criminal/highly religious backgrounds get inside, and then whatever the fuck they do never kick them out. One MAJOR crime should lead to instant deportion, no arguing. Also living on wellfare, never having a single job inside Sweden, and preeching about hating Western society and how infidels should die should lead to deportion im my opinion. Yes you should be allowed free speech, but not on account of our countries well being when just arrived here.
Its CRIMINAL immigrants I dislike, or people who want islam to get major influance in the society. And just to counter the argument that a very small group of criminals make a very big group suffer because if generalisation i will just say, i dont have any perfect answers but i do believe the problem is big enough that something has to be fucking done, and hiding your head in your arse wont be the solution.
Yeah that camp is nasty, execution style, nowhere to run. It's gonna be interesting to hear his motives. I assume he doesn't like the arbeiderparti, this was their youth organisation right?
There has been claims to this terrorist attack but I wont include any names since it's not yet confirmed.
those statistics are taken precisely from a period of time that "statistically exaggerates" islamic terrorism. well, and in terms of deaths, islamic terrorism has resulted in more deaths anyway as they have targeted more crowded areas and had bigger bombs/airplanes. but if you look at this in a 50 year perspective, then ETA has killed 829 people in an enormous amount of separate attacks, whereas islamic terrorists killed 198 in 1. in england, the london bombings killed like 60 people, whereas IRA themselves killed almost 1700, also in an enormous amount of separate incidents. I don't have numbers, but I'd assume that on a 50 year period, in europe, islamic terrorists attacks are far outnumbered by non-islamic terrorist attacks - feel free to do some googling and if you disprove me (in terms of numbers of bombs/assassinations rather than casualities) then I'll concede the point.
I don't have those numbers and as far as I'm concerned they're ridiculously irrelevant.
The statistics since the "introduction" of Al Qaida and the jihad called on all western countries allied with the US is quite clear. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by extending the period by 40 years? To me this just looks like a desperate attempt to defend the radical muslims, I see it every day in Sweden. The fact remains, over the past decade the overwhelming deaths from terrorist attacks are caused by muslim fundamentalists. I'm not saying this is the works of islamic nutjobs.
I just hope this is the end of the attack on Norway and that he worked alone. Like I said it will be interesting to find out his motives.
I also heard it was an attack close to the department of oil and energy something? Aswell as close to the office of Stoltenberg, but it really seems like an attack on a political level, not some random terrorist act.
Drone, IRA is one thing, that's an internal conflict, they don't go on bombing sprees in the middle east. Al Qaida don't stay in their own nations, they come here and kill us. I can't believe how blindly leftist you're being when this bombing is an obvious terrorist attack - on your own nation! Have you no pride, man?
On July 22 2011 16:45 lukeperry wrote:
I don't have those numbers and as far as I'm concerned they're ridiculously irrelevant.
The statistics since the "introduction" of Al Qaida and the jihad called on all western countries allied with the US is quite clear. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by extending the period by 40 years? To me this just looks like a desperate attempt to defend the radical muslims, I see it every day in Sweden. The fact remains, over the past decade the overwhelming deaths from terrorist attacks are caused by muslim fundamentalists. I'm not saying this is the works of islamic nutjobs. I just reacted on the fact that you didn't believe Balzamon. But again, this is very common in Sweden.
I just hope this is the end of the attack on Norway and that he worked alone. Like I said it will be interesting to find out his motives.
ridiculously irrelevant? that's ridiculous. my point was that islam does not have a monopoly on terrorism. my point is that terrorism is not caused by islam, it's caused by people in desperate positions with no other (conceivable to them) method of accomplishing their goals. when this is my point, how is bringing up that non-islamic europeans have killed thousands of europeans in hundreds of attacks over the past 50 years irrelevant? now, I made one mistake in a previous post (equating balzamon's stance to one where he wants to kick out all muslims where he did indeed never state this and that was very strawmanny and I am sorry about that!), but everything else I said in my posts responding to him I firmly believe. his first thought, at least the first expressed thought in the opening post he made, is how this tragic event is evidence that we need to alter our immigration policy with regards to muslims when it has not even been proven that islam had any sort of connection to the attack. he didn't write "this event is truly tragic - perhaps we need to reevaluate our immigration policy and alter it so we don't accept more immigrants than we can handle" or anything like that, he utilized this occasion to make an attack on the "politically correct muslim-apologists". pointing imaginary fingers at people to find someone to blame/hate is a horrible response to an attack like this, and it angered me.
On July 22 2011 16:57 Stygg wrote:
Drone, IRA is one thing, that's an internal conflict, they don't go on bombing sprees in the middle east. Al Qaida don't stay in their own nations, they come here and kill us. I can't believe how blindly leftist you're being when this bombing is an obvious terrorist attack - on your own nation! Have you no pride, man?
this is a terrorist attack committed by a norwegian male. no connection to al qaida or any islamic group has been proven, but the shooter is proven to be a 32 year old norwegian male, because he was caught. and he was also seen near the bomb area at an earlier occasion.
At this point they DO have monopoly on terrorism. They have had for the last decade, and I don't see why anyone would try to "tone it down" by saying "Yeah, but they're not the only ones doing it". The terrorist attacks commited by islamic extremists have gone up since 2001, there's no denying it. Right now they've taken more lives through terrorist act the last 10 years than any other group of people.The number of attacks are as far as I care highly irrelevant. If anything it shows that the extremists are planning this more carefully and have bigger organisations to pull of more destruction with fewer attacks.
Yes it's wrong to jump on the bandwagon and instantly blame this on muslims. I'll admit I did it myself, since all logic pointed to yet another attack like the one in Stockholm.
If it turns out its this lonely Norweigan guy, I won't say I'm glad, but that atleast shows that the islamic terrorist haven't attacked yet another country to force them to do what they want.
EDIT
Well not monopoly in the true sense of the word, obviously. Just by far the most devastation and death.
I'll also add that I have never ever said that all muslims are terrorists, that they're the only ones doing it or that it's a product of Islam. I'm just saying that right now, they are responsible for most deaths through cowardly terrorist attacks. And I WILL say that I think Islam is a dangerous religion, they're view on people is disgusting and I don't want it in Sweden. Problem is that we have a government selling out Sweden right now, bending over backwards to please all the different people and cultures coming here. One of our top politics have said that Swedes are jealous of immigrants, because they have such a rich culture and we have nothing. Another one said that its the immigrants that carry the Swedish society. Even though most people on welfare are immigrants.
ill eat my own hat if this isnt linked to middle eastern terrorism. shit like this doesnt just go down randomly due to a madman in a place like norway. maybe once in a 100 years, whereas terrorist attacks happen like once a month
Just thought I'll add this.
2001 a 23-year old man was arrested with explosives, guns and police uniforms. http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article231455.ece
It's a bit far fetched but it could very well be the same guy...
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blackjacki2 United States. Jul 22 2011 18:49. Posts 2582
On July 22 2011 17:42 lukeperry wrote:
Just thought I'll add this.
2001 a 23-year old man was arrested with explosives, guns and police uniforms. http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article231455.ece
It's a bit far fetched but it could very well be the same guy...
Well the guy they arrested is 32 so the age matches up
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blackjacki2 United States. Jul 22 2011 18:56. Posts 2582
Yea, 23 in November 2001 would make 32 in July 2011.
He's a well known neo-nazi, arrested and convicted several times for reckless driving (caused a man to crash and die) and illegal possession of guns and explosives.
As I was typing this I read on another Swedish forum with a nack for tracking down info on suspects, and apparently he's too short to fit the description of the suspect in todays events. Viva la internet detectives lol
there is one connection between islam and terrorism. that is that muslims are more willing to commit suicide than atheists/christians. christians who commit suicide go to hell according to their own belief, atheists stop existing according to their own belief, and islamic martyrs get a nice afterlife according to their own belief. this means that islamic terrorist attacks generally deal more damage, because it's easier to make an explosion go off in a crowded area if you yourself die in the meantime. everything else is related to desperation/anger/inability to make life better.
now, I'm going to make a comprehensive list over terrorist attacks in western europe and northern america since 2001 (the last decade). im looking at this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents#1970.E2.80.93present and the individual years and adding everything that happened in western europe or usa that I can find.
2001: Two separate IRA bombings in london.
9/11
in addition, one planned ai-qaida attack on the french embassy but that was foiled. the Jewish Defense League similarly planned an attack on a mosque in california, and one islamic fundamentalist failed trying to blow up a plane.
2002: Luke Helder places pipebombs in mailboxes in the midwest, to protest government control over daily lives and illegality of marijuana. and an egyptian gunman kills two israelis in the los angeles international airport. additionally the washington shooting killing ten (this attack was done by two guys who had joined the nation of islam 15 years earlier.)
2003: swedish foreign minister anna lindh was stabbed to death by a serbian immigrant who was pissed about swedish foreign policy with regards to serbia. I dunno whether he was a muslim or not, but I don't think it had much if anything to do with the stabbing.
2004: attack in northern ireland, no muslims involved.
paris; the french armed islamic front injured 10 people.
ETA had four attacks in spain in december, and the madrid train bombings happened in march.
in netherlands theo van gogh was assassinated.
2005: london bombings, killed 52 and injured more than 700. there was an attempt at another london bombing 2 weeks later. both islamic in nature.
in USA some guy suicide-bombed but only killed himself or something.
2006: eta undertook 15 bombings in january-march.
in usa, an iranian drove a car into a crowd and injured 9. and an afghani muslim hit 19 pedestrians, killing 1. and derrick shareef planned to commit "violent jihad" just before christmas, but he was also foiled.
in canada, police foiled 17 alleged terrorists before they could do whatever they were planning.
in germany, some islamists dropped two suitcase-bombs, but they didn't detonate.
in UK, a plot to bomb several airlines failed. this was islamic in origin. in addition, the IRA detonated a series of firebombs.
in norway, some muslim fired shots at a synagogue late at night.
2007: in USA, sulejman talovic killed 5 people and himself died. shouted allah akbar so was islamic in origin. additionally, six radical islamists were caught plotting to attack the fort dix military base. also one incident of homemade bombs being thrown at mexican consulate in NYC, but nobody caught.
in UK, glasgow international airport attack, london car bombs. al qaida connected to both I think.
in germany, planned bombing of frankfurt international airport is foiled, also islamic.
2008: bomb went off in new york, nobody killed nobody found guilty.
spain: about 16 or so ETA bombings.
UK: exeter bombing, muslim convert did it.
USA, jim david adkisson killed 2 and injured 7, motivation was killing liberals and democrats. also one car bomb, injuring 4 people and killing the guy, dunno if it was islamic or not.and one more bomb, but also without a known perpetrator.
Dublin: home made bomb, no islamic connection
finland: attack on the turkish embassy by kurdish demonstrators.
france: five sticks of dynamite found, apparently placed there to force france out of afghanistan.
2009: spain 16 bomb attacks by ETA.
northern ireland: two unarmed soldiers killed by the "real IRA".then another officer killed by the continuity IRA some days later.
sweden: female television journalist seriously injured after a bomb which was supposedly a terrorist act against the journalism community in sweden.
usa: small explosion outside starbucks in new york, dunno if it was islamic or not. additionally an american muslim started shooting at a military recruitment office, killed one and wounded one.
on Corsica (france), the national liberation front of corsica made two bombs go off.
2010:
9 bombs in northern ireland, not islamic.
denmark: cartoonist kurt westergaard barely escapes a somali axe-wielder. response to muhammed drawings. additionally, some chechen guy tried to bomb jyllands-posten.
france: ETA kills a french policeman (for the first time ever.)
USA: one car bomb found in times square, radical islamists most likely suspects. in addition, one guy used a pipe bomb to attack a mosque 2 days later.
canada: some socalled anarchists firebombed royal bank of canada, said it was a response to the sponsorship of the 2010 winter olympics.
in stockholm, two explosions occurred, supposedly over engagement in afghanistan and the cartoon controversy.
2011:
USA: gabrielle giffords attempted killed, killed 6 others.
northern ireland: bomb kills one guy. another bomb goes off too.
netherlands: tristan van der vlis killed 6people+himself and wounded 17, was insane but not a muslim.
total math from what I've written here: in the past decade, there have in western europe and northern america been 78 non-islamic and 28 islamic terrorist attacks of various size.
Sometimes it's easy to blame extreme islamism for everything, jumping to conclusions without the proper facts.
That is the most missleading statistics ever tho and has nothing to do with that might happen inside scandinavia. Just because IRA and ETA does a LOT of small and some big terrorist-attacks in their homecoutrys doesnt mean those stats say anything about the rest of the world. I dont even know if i will class them as right wing, but im totally no expert on this so i will say no more about that. What i can say tho is look worldwide at what group of terrorist who have most lethal attacks and you will see a hole other story. And for the political violence in our own country, Sweden, i would say that the left wing does 90% of it, the hole retarded nazi-thing from the 90s is long ago dead.
On July 22 2011 15:20 EvilSky wrote:
Nolan you dont like immigration yet you are from a country that is rooted in it and you yourself moved to another country so you could play poker because you couldnt back home? The irony is too much.
Not to derail, but just to clarify a few things. I was born an Irish citizen, I'm not sure you're aware of that or not. I moved back last January and didn't move for poker at all. I've spent 8 of my 25 years in Ireland. Both of my parents are Irish. I wouldn't expect anyone to consider me Irish, but I carry an Irish passport so w/e that means it is what it is.
Second, I didn't say I was against immigration, and just because immigrating to a nation built on it was beneficial to me does not mean it was beneficial to America. I would hope I could be critical of a policy of my own nation, even if it were actually to my benefit. I maintain that the general perception that if you're land sucks, move to someone elses is bad for longterm global development.
Not sure how you figured i moved for poker, I haven't even played online much since before BF.
All that being said maybe current immigration trends and their impacts are better for a new thread.
On September 08 2008 10:07 Baal wrote: my head is a gyroscope, your argument is invalid
It's not a response to what happened in Norway, it's a response people assuming it's a terror attack made by muslims.
I'm not defending any fundamentalism on any side here, but it is pretty obvious to me that people are a bit misinformed about the prevalence of terrorism among different groups. This thread is a pretty good indication how people are blaming a group while it rather appears to be something completely different. How do you justify that?
Like I said, the number of attacks are for me irrelevant. It's like BP saying that 2010 was their best year regarding safety because they counted the NUMBER of incidents, not the impact they had. Those numbers are highly missleading and are only used by people trying to defend islamic terrorists, for God knows what reason. I guess they think they're doing muslims a favour. Not so much.
Fun tidbit, the attack in Madrid 2004 caused more deaths than ETA, IRA, FLNC, Right wing extremists and all non-muslim terrorists attacks in Europe for the last 10 years. Combined.
On July 22 2011 18:24 SpasticInk wrote:
It's not a response to what happened in Norway, it's a response people assuming it's a terror attack made by muslims.
I'm not defending any fundamentalism on any side here, but it is pretty obvious to me that people are a bit misinformed about the prevalence of terrorism among different groups. This thread is a pretty good indication how people are blaming a group while it rather appears to be something completely different. How do you justify that?
I'm the first to admit that I thought this was the act of a muslim terrorist cell, just like in Stockholm. I'm also the first to admit I clearly was wrong. It will be interesting to find out his motives.
And if you're immediate thoughts werent "radical muslim terrorists" then congratulations, you've managed to not be affected by what has happened the last 10 years world wide.
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Surprise United States. Jul 22 2011 19:31. Posts 275
Should this count as a big or small terrorist attack then? How is it irrelevant that between 2006 and 2009 6 out of 1770 attacks were made by extreme muslim groups and yet whenever a terror attack occurs everyone assumes it's because of "the muslims"?
On July 22 2011 18:24 SpasticInk wrote:
It's not a response to what happened in Norway, it's a response people assuming it's a terror attack made by muslims.
I'm not defending any fundamentalism on any side here, but it is pretty obvious to me that people are a bit misinformed about the prevalence of terrorism among different groups. This thread is a pretty good indication how people are blaming a group while it rather appears to be something completely different. How do you justify that?
I'm the first to admit that I thought this was the act of a muslim terrorist cell, just like in Stockholm. I'm also the first to admit I clearly was wrong. It will be interesting to find out his motives.
And if you're immediate thoughts werent "radical muslim terrorists" then congratulations, you've managed to not be affected by what has happened the last 10 years world wide.
'
Not saying that it didnt pop my mind, however it's a complete different thing to THINK it and to write it down and accuse a group without any evidence. That's my point.
On July 22 2011 18:24 SpasticInk wrote:
It's not a response to what happened in Norway, it's a response people assuming it's a terror attack made by muslims.
I'm not defending any fundamentalism on any side here, but it is pretty obvious to me that people are a bit misinformed about the prevalence of terrorism among different groups. This thread is a pretty good indication how people are blaming a group while it rather appears to be something completely different. How do you justify that?
I'm the first to admit that I thought this was the act of a muslim terrorist cell, just like in Stockholm. I'm also the first to admit I clearly was wrong. It will be interesting to find out his motives.
And if you're immediate thoughts werent "radical muslim terrorists" then congratulations, you've managed to not be affected by what has happened the last 10 years world wide.
Yeah, same. If something similar happened again, I would still assume it was a muslim terrorist act until it was proven not to be. This time it turned out not to be, but who can honestly say it wasn't their first thought too?
On July 22 2011 18:32 SpasticInk wrote:
Should this count as a big or small terrorist attack then? How is it irrelevant that between 2006 and 2009 6 out of 1770 attacks were made by extreme muslim groups and yet whenever a terror attack occurs everyone assumes it's because of "the muslims"?
On July 22 2011 18:32 SpasticInk wrote:
Should this count as a big or small terrorist attack then? How is it irrelevant that between 2006 and 2009 6 out of 1770 attacks were made by extreme muslim groups and yet whenever a terror attack occurs everyone assumes it's because of "the muslims"?
Because for the last decade, whenever there has been a major attack, it has almost always involved muslims. You gotta realise that the statistic includes alooot of things. I guess its a matter of definition. To me THIS is a terrorist attack.
Of the top of my mind, I can only come up with one major attack that wasnt radical muslims. The Moscow airport bombing. Well two now, if it turns out this guy had no connection to muslim extremists.
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palak United States. Jul 22 2011 20:32. Posts 4601
Contradicting earlier news reports i posted.
A police official said the 32-year-old ethnic Norwegian suspect arrested at the camp on Utoya island appears to have acted alone in both attacks, and that "it seems like that this is not linked to any international terrorist organizations at all." The official spoke on condition of anonymity because that information had not been officially released by Norway's police.
"It seems it's not Islamic-terror related," the official said. "This seems like a madman's work."
The official said the attack "is probably more Norway's Oklahoma City than it is Norway's World Trade Center." Domestic terrorists carried out the 1995 attack on a federal building in Oklahoma City, while foreign terrorists were responsible for the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.
The official added, however, "it's still just hours since the incident happened. And the investigation is going on with all available resources."
fine, i'll eat my hat, but i'm not so results oriented that i wouldn't happily make the same assumption again given similar circumstances: a bomb explosion in a capital european city - i think my line is very +ev.
Yes i will also eat my hat, in this case i was wrong (even if its far from proved he was also guilty for the bombing). He does not have any connection with terror-organisations (it seems as of yet) and he seems to be an right-wing extremist. I cant think of one single good (well obviously no reason could be good for massmurder but in his mind) reason he could have to do this insane thing, i hope the an explanation will be out soon.
I still stand for every single argument i have made in this thread though, but yeah my mind jumped to conclusions too fast in this case.
On July 22 2011 12:55 Zep wrote:
Sad sad news. Sealing borders and embracing bigotry doesn't prevent terrorism, but I understand the frustration.
Agree
Especially at this point sealing the borders would just provoke another wave of terrorist acts
What they need is a better control over the immigrants, full background history and etc. that would be a nice start
And what I dont understand is how can NATO go and just bomb Libya for their reasons but not invest resources into just running all over that radical muslim sect in Africa. How can organisations which "headquarters" are based in 3rd world countries be that stable and why is noone doing anything about it
Also please do not just randomly accuse anyone that anything to do with muslim as if they are a part of this
I also think it will suck balls when I have kids someday and we go on a trip to Stockholm and the entire downtown has signs in Somali, Arabic, Turkish, and whatever. It's really cool that we grew up in a world where the culture difference between London, Stockholm and Ankara was vast. It seems at this rate in 100 years if you dropped someone in Stockholm, Paris, Berlin, New York, wherever, they wouldn't even be able to tell which country they were in until they heard people speaking. I mean, I was just in Amsterdam and literally this entire street was Turkish Doner places with English signs. If you didn't know where it was you'd be 100% unable to differentiate between that street in Netherlands and any street in the Bronx.
this feels like that - might've misunderstood you. Im not a muslim myself but we cant just attack such a large group of people. Radical muslims are what we should be dealing with.
People migrating and the culture of every country changing is absolutely natural its happening ever since the human kind existed. You cant exactly say any country has an original culture which they've kept and didnt change throughout their whole history except faily new countries like the US. Culture difference will always be that huge the only thing that ll be different is its coordinates
man this thread is awesome and interesting from the perspective of undoubtedly almost everyone here is being close to 100% honest, which is rare in open dialogue.
cheers to all contributors.
On September 08 2008 10:07 Baal wrote: my head is a gyroscope, your argument is invalid
The "acted alone" story somehow doesnt add up - chances of that happening are probably worse than hitting the jackpot from the totalizer
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blackjacki2 United States. Jul 22 2011 22:15. Posts 2582
On July 22 2011 19:43 Stygg wrote:
fine, i'll eat my hat, but i'm not so results oriented that i wouldn't happily make the same assumption again given similar circumstances: a bomb explosion in a capital european city - i think my line is very +ev.
considering you could have just waited a few hours and then you wouldn't have to eat your hat I would say your line is -ev
Ok news update that came fresh from a press conference, this is totally and utterly insane... Now they say this lonely man managed to kill 80 (!) kids on the island, and still 7 dead from the bombing in central Oslo. It's late and maybe theres been a misstake in the reporting but a lot of different newspapers are writing this number.
This must be the worst deed in people killed in "modern" scandinavian history by far. A single man, armed with a sniper gun and a machine gun, killing 80 people on an island.
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palak United States. Jul 22 2011 22:32. Posts 4601
^ confirmed 3 mins ago LA times
A horrific shooting rampage at a youth summer camp left at least 80 people dead as Norway reeled from apparently related terrorist attacks in a nation long known as the home of the Nobel Peace Prize.
The 80 dead at the camp was a dramatic increase over an earlier police report that at least 10 had died at the youth camp. Police director Oystein Maeland told reporters many more victims were discovered between the two reports, according to The Associated Press.
Surprise United States. Jul 23 2011 00:51. Posts 275
I can't think of a one man shooting spree that bad ever, in America we've had some doozies but I don't think its ever gotten near 80 killed. Must be due to the location - on an island like that theres just no where to go.
if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN
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palak United States. Jul 23 2011 03:10. Posts 4601
So from a google I'm going to go ahead and confirm that this is the largest civilian killing spree in modern history. The previous one was in South Korean (57 killed) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woo_Bum-kon
Current Oslo attack kill count is 91 and expected to rise.
This is the work of an an anti islamic person not neo nazi more associated edl than something like bnp. (i am hearing not sure)
On July 23 2011 08:02 moneypoker wrote:
don't know why but the media here in poland make a big deal out of him being a fan of world of warcraft lol
games are evil...
On July 23 2011 08:58 Mortensen8 wrote:
This is the work of an an anti islamic person not neo nazi more associated edl than something like bnp. (i am hearing not sure)
On July 23 2011 08:02 moneypoker wrote:
don't know why but the media here in poland make a big deal out of him being a fan of world of warcraft lol
games are evil...
lol polandball
he was a former member of the youth organization of the progress party. (most right-wing party in the norwegian parliament - but not as extreme as edl/bnp/sverigedemokratene/most of the far-right european parties) left like 8 years ago while he was developing more and more extreme views. he wasn't really a nazi, more like extremely hateful of multiculturalism and socialism, and he was probably genuinely convinced that the labour party's policies were leading norway to ruin through enabling/encouraging multiculturalism and social-democracy.
like other cases of terrorism, this was caused by perceived desperation and inability to make any change through other ways. (the fact that he was part of a political party at a younger age indicates that he had a strong desire to alter society, but he eventually realized that he'd never gain political influence). I hope political rethoric becomes less flammable in the future, this is a direct consequence of the increased polarization of politics where politicians from both sides of the spectrum portray a future society in ruins if the other party gets/maintains power. this guy bought it, spent an enormous amount of time preparing and finding the perfect moment, and probably considers himself an enormous hero right now.
On July 23 2011 02:10 palak wrote:
So from a google I'm going to go ahead and confirm that this is the largest civilian killing spree in modern history. The previous one was in South Korean (57 killed) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woo_Bum-kon
Current Oslo attack kill count is 91 and expected to rise.
Killing spree killer list surprisingly misses
Robert Steinhauser from the Erfurt Massaker Germany 2002 who killed 17 people most by headshot all within 20 minutes using a single pistol .
This happend 1,5 hour(by car) away from where i live and was so far for myself the sickest most ugly deed a single person had done.
I never managed to even be able to imagine how a single person can end 17 lifes in less than half an hour.
It just makes my head explode
However the Oslo killing spree is beyond everything my brain can grasp.
more than 90 people killed by a single person within an hour T_T
just unreal
U see what i did there with A8 ? He 4 bets and there we go insta jam A8 : ---booooom -- . hahahaha ( Krantz)
Last edit: 24/07/2011 22:35
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Elite00 United States. Jul 25 2011 01:24. Posts 683
On July 23 2011 08:58 Mortensen8 wrote:
This is the work of an an anti islamic person not neo nazi more associated edl than something like bnp. (i am hearing not sure)
On July 23 2011 08:02 moneypoker wrote:
don't know why but the media here in poland make a big deal out of him being a fan of world of warcraft lol
games are evil...
lol polandball
he was a former member of the youth organization of the progress party. (most right-wing party in the norwegian parliament - but not as extreme as edl/bnp/sverigedemokratene/most of the far-right european parties) left like 8 years ago while he was developing more and more extreme views. he wasn't really a nazi, more like extremely hateful of multiculturalism and socialism, and he was probably genuinely convinced that the labour party's policies were leading norway to ruin through enabling/encouraging multiculturalism and social-democracy.
like other cases of terrorism, this was caused by perceived desperation and inability to make any change through other ways. (the fact that he was part of a political party at a younger age indicates that he had a strong desire to alter society, but he eventually realized that he'd never gain political influence). I hope political rethoric becomes less flammable in the future, this is a direct consequence of the increased polarization of politics where politicians from both sides of the spectrum portray a future society in ruins if the other party gets/maintains power. this guy bought it, spent an enormous amount of time preparing and finding the perfect moment, and probably considers himself an enormous hero right now.
insightful post
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YoMeR United States. Jul 25 2011 04:15. Posts 12438
what the fuck this kinda like out of some cheesy horror film.
how does someone just brutalize 80 people with a gun. he must have fired hundreds of rounds and the whole thing taking hours just to kill that many people. just amazing how crazy this guy is. it's exhausting and seriously a "grind" to kill that many people. how does he not get sick of the carnage and stop.
Yeah he had several weapons, firepower wasn't an issue. The police didn't arrive until 1½ hour after the call had gone out and the victims had nowhere to go. He could casually walk around the island shooting people who tried to swim or was hiding in the bushes.
Apparently he did show mercy to some people, according to media in Sweden. He spared an 11 year old boys life after the kid had begged him to not shoot, but then he just moved on to kill other people instead. I wonder what kinda drugs he was on to remain so calm and cold.
On July 25 2011 08:50 lukeperry wrote:
Yeah he had several weapons, firepower wasn't an issue. The police didn't arrive until 1½ hour after the call had gone out and the victims had nowhere to go. He could casually walk around the island shooting people who tried to swim or was hiding in the bushes.
Apparently he did show mercy to some people, according to media in Sweden. He spared an 11 year old boys life after the kid had begged him to not shoot, but then he just moved on to kill other people instead. I wonder what kinda drugs he was on to remain so calm and cold.
this is pretty sick.. there were also a bunch of people who drowned trying to swim the 700m to shore.. and some guy survived by laying down pretending to be dead among the bodies.
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palak United States. Jul 25 2011 14:24. Posts 4601
"I just bought Modern Warfare 2, the game. It is probably the best military simulator out there and it's one of the hottest games this year. I see MW2 more as a part of my training-simulation than anything else. I've still learned to love it though and especially the multiplayer part is amazing. You can more or less completely simulate actual operations."
On July 25 2011 08:50 lukeperry wrote:
I wonder what kinda drugs he was on to remain so calm and cold.
"Complete Lokis Armour is heavy indeed but don’t forget that as a Justiciar Knight you have trained for months for one single mission. In addition a Justiciar Knight should always be in the middle of a steroid cycle and take an ECA stack capsule 20 minutes prior to the initiation of the mission (ephedrine, caffeine, aspirin stack) which increases our strength and agility by 50-100% for 2 hours. A Justiciar Knight is thus better prepared than even the most hardcore SWAT operator in a majority of ways."
also get a load of this lol :
Heat......EXTEND
Last edit: 25/07/2011 14:53
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traxamillion United States. Jul 25 2011 18:27. Posts 10468
Pretty embarassed i jumped into conclusion as well, but I've heard just so much shit about the struggle between islamic and western cultures, from TV to turists friends from Canada, Europe, etc, that I just assumed this had to be a product of that, well technically it is a product of that, but it's an european here who is causing terror.
I guess it's pretty clear now that the problem everytime is extremist religious and ideological beliefs
bitte bitte bitte bitte bitte bitte
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palak United States. Jul 25 2011 23:55. Posts 4601
According to wiki this song has been taken off of radio stations due to the oslo attacks. Can anyone confirm this somehow?
dont tap the glass...im about ready to take a fucking hammer to the aquarium
trolling ignorant americans aside here is my point of view:
Media and people try to jump into certain patterns to know why this happened, (oh he listened to slipknot, he played WoW, he hated muslims) but its impossible to pinpoint what caused it in that way, million people fit in that criteria and yet they dont go on murderous rampages so trying to simplify this in this way as media loves to do is simply its ridiculous and aimed at intellectully lazy people (most people) who like to believe in childish concepts.
He is simply a byproduct of a violent society, a country who aided the war against iraq, also involved in afghanistan and in libia, how can society grow as peaceful individuals when violence is all that surrounds us.
And i dont mean Norway as being a particularly violent country (even if its quite eager to jump into wars) but society is, society lives under the states constant violence and are fed these catalysts of violence: race, religion and nationalism.
your so funny baal, and so deep and wise. Please educate us more, we are so blind, o great one.
I wish one of your guys had children if I could kick them in the fucking head or stomp on their testicles so you can feel my pain because thats the pain I have waking up everyday -- Mike Tyson
On July 26 2011 03:29 Baal wrote:
trolling ignorant americans aside here is my point of view:
Media and people try to jump into certain patterns to know why this happened, (oh he listened to slipknot, he played WoW, he hated muslims) but its impossible to pinpoint what caused it in that way, million people fit in that criteria and yet they dont go on murderous rampages so trying to simplify this in this way as media loves to do is simply its ridiculous and aimed at intellectully lazy people (most people) who like to believe in childish concepts.
He is simply a byproduct of a violent society, a country who aided the war against iraq, also involved in afghanistan and in libia, how can society grow as peaceful individuals when violence is all that surrounds us.
And i dont mean Norway as being a particularly violent country (even if its quite eager to jump into wars) but society is, society lives under the states constant violence and are fed these catalysts of violence: race, religion and nationalism.
are you seriously trying to turn this event into an argument for anarchism, and that this guy murdered 100ish people because society made him do it and without society no such external pressure would happen?
have you seen the norwegian response to these events? for the last couple days, norway has been filled with sorrow and grief, but also with togetherness, compassion and love. hardly anyone has shown any lust for blood, what everyone is saying, and doing, is that we have to kill the hatred expressed by this one guy through loving more than ever. in fact, while I am not a nationalistic person and I feel that the idea of being proud of your nation is stupid, norway for the past 3 days has showcased the most beautiful part of humanity I have ever witnessed. It's been quite humbling actually, but absolutely wonderful. Now, here's the good part - if you are so eager to attribute any negative personal characteristics in a person as some sort of, inevitabilities that you will always find in some people in any society with a state, does this apply to positive personal characteristics as well? or is that more along the lines of "human goodness which the state has been incapable of suppressing" or something? please explain, because I feel your stance is either willfully ignorant of all the good, compassionate and loving actions that have been showcased, or horribly inconsistent, in that you're arguing that people can be negative byproducts of their society, but not positive..
On July 26 2011 05:22 Milk wrote:
The last pic is pretty true imo.
you can do that kind of childish correlations with anything. i can have picture of baal driving a car and sarcastically call him a hero (in the drivers world) and yet at same time call him greedy , wastefull human being, and blame the worlds dependence of oil on baal's habits and all "those type of people".
Yea real smart stuff.
I wish one of your guys had children if I could kick them in the fucking head or stomp on their testicles so you can feel my pain because thats the pain I have waking up everyday -- Mike Tyson
i didnt say society made him do it or that its pressuring him to do it, i said he is the byproduct of a sick society and there shouldnt be any shock in encountering these people from.
Lust for blood? because there is no catalyst to violence, if the kid were a muslim immigrant blowing up a bunch of whites the response would be quite different my friend, and you know this.
About attributing goodness to the violent twisted society, if you expose 2 guys to a violence treatment kind of inverse orange clockwork, and one guy decides to actually not being extremely violent, would you attribute it to the treatment? no, he just simply overcame it, the other one succumbed.
The norweigan response was sooooooo beautiful and compassionate and togetherness and peaceful... where were all those people when Norway sent troops to afghanistan, and then to iraq.. and to libia? please tell me because i think they were like ostriches hiding in their ignorance.
And for the record, you seem to think i see the state as an evil violent mastermind, but i dont, its just like religion, the pope is no mastermind of religion nor manipulates his followers at will, religion is a cancer, it has no collective consciousness, its just vicous, grows and instill fear and violence in the hearts of people, the state just works like that, its chaotic with no conscious goal, it just grows like cancer and just like religion, people should grow out of it and realize only the fool need them.
On July 26 2011 05:22 Milk wrote:
The last pic is pretty true imo.
you can do that kind of childish correlations with anything. i can have picture of baal driving a car and sarcastically call him a hero (in the drivers world) and yet at same time call him greedy , wastefull human being, and blame the worlds dependence of oil on baal's habits and all "those type of people".
Yea real smart stuff.
that is at a terribly stupid straw man argument, your analogy would be absolutely idiotic while mine is quite precise.
Im making a point that people that kill others because their ignorant perception of enemies are monsters and never heroes, you are just making an absolute nonsensical idiotic comparison.
Seriously if you are not going to intelligently defend your points dont do it at all, you just clutter the thread with crap.
On July 26 2011 05:22 Milk wrote:
The last pic is pretty true imo.
Its not "your opinion" the soldier is killing people because he ignorantly percieves them as enemies and he is trying to defend his country and beliefs exactly like this kid did, he believes he was helping his country and he is convinced he is a hero but both are nothing but mere ignorant murderers.
I hope some idiot comes with the "they are orders" excuse... plz ?
i was warned for mentioning my beliefs in politics and AMERICAN wars, well if this was seen as an attack to american soldiers, then my mistake, i should have used a different pic i just googled for a generic soldier pic.
It was intended for ANY soldier and i am not talking about the american wars, since i am saying norway participated directly in the wars so im debating about norway and the world, not the united states.
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blackjacki2 United States. Jul 26 2011 18:03. Posts 2582
^ not even close to the meaning of "killing spree" but I'd bet you already know that
if this had been an attack orchestrated by a muslim terrorist group then mentioning norway's involvement in afghanistan, iraq and libya would be prudent, and it would be a relevant discussion. but this is not related to that in any way whatsoever - ABB wanted to start a war, although on our own soil. there's no connection here, none. I don't really care about the jackassery of even bringing it up here, but you're just a broken record by now - not every damn indicent that happens on this planet is related to the horror of the state.
lol POKER
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palak United States. Jul 26 2011 19:29. Posts 4601
This
On July 26 2011 18:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:
if this had been an attack orchestrated by a muslim terrorist group then mentioning norway's involvement in afghanistan, iraq and libya would be prudent, and it would be a relevant discussion. but this is not related to that in any way whatsoever - ABB wanted to start a war, although on our own soil. there's no connection here, none. I don't really care about the jackassery of even bringing it up here, but you're just a broken record by now - not every damn indicent that happens on this planet is related to the horror of the state.
On May 03 2011 19:23 Baal wrote:
The good news is that american troops deaths by IEDs are growing exponentially and its calculated that the defending forces currently have recluted more forces than what they initially had at the start of the invasion and this will quickly turn into another Vietnam.
Its not that im happy that soldiers die, i am indifferent to their deaths, after all they are victims of their own stupidity and ignorance and are there to kill people so its deserved, however it feels good when afghanistan is fending off another imperialist attack just like they did against the russians, but this time on their own (last time they had help from the united states), its a shame that this only breeds more hatred, violence and religious fanaticism, but its better for the world overall if aghanistan causes severe losses in the united states war machine.
Also Baal quit posting about shit you can't change nor know anything about and start fixing your own shitty country. All people like you ever do is Q.Q over shit and never actually do anything political. How about you act on your seemingly hardcore beliefs big boy instead of spending hours making outrageous stands then counter other people's arguments with even more outlandish claims.
You want an Anarchy? Fucking start one.
dont tap the glass...im about ready to take a fucking hammer to the aquarium
On July 26 2011 18:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:
if this had been an attack orchestrated by a muslim terrorist group then mentioning norway's involvement in afghanistan, iraq and libya would be prudent, and it would be a relevant discussion. but this is not related to that in any way whatsoever - ABB wanted to start a war, although on our own soil. there's no connection here, none. I don't really care about the jackassery of even bringing it up here, but you're just a broken record by now - not every damn indicent that happens on this planet is related to the horror of the state.
On July 26 2011 03:29 Baal wrote:
trolling ignorant americans aside here is my point of view:
Media and people try to jump into certain patterns to know why this happened, (oh he listened to slipknot, he played WoW, he hated muslims) but its impossible to pinpoint what caused it in that way, million people fit in that criteria and yet they dont go on murderous rampages so trying to simplify this in this way as media loves to do is simply its ridiculous and aimed at intellectully lazy people (most people) who like to believe in childish concepts.
He is simply a byproduct of a violent society, a country who aided the war against iraq, also involved in afghanistan and in libia, how can society grow as peaceful individuals when violence is all that surrounds us.
And i dont mean Norway as being a particularly violent country (even if its quite eager to jump into wars) but society is, society lives under the states constant violence and are fed these catalysts of violence: race, religion and nationalism.
if you read 10 mins of his "manifesto" his motives become pretty clear lol
also
On July 26 2011 17:30 Spitfiree wrote:
Heeeeeeeeeeere we go again
On July 26 2011 18:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:
if this had been an attack orchestrated by a muslim terrorist group then mentioning norway's involvement in afghanistan, iraq and libya would be prudent, and it would be a relevant discussion. but this is not related to that in any way whatsoever - ABB wanted to start a war, although on our own soil. there's no connection here, none. I don't really care about the jackassery of even bringing it up here, but you're just a broken record by now - not every damn indicent that happens on this planet is related to the horror of the state.
I wasnt ranting about the state but society, and yes violent incidents are related to a violent society.
You talked about the huge compassion and empathy of people bla bla, but then i said where were those people when Norway were killing people abroad?, didnt they condone that violence in those wars?, if they did, how can they act surprised when they condone the murder of thousands of innocents in foreign countries and get a few deaths caused by a violent maniac on their own country?
You said you are no nationalistic but somehow you seem more upset about the deaths of norweigans caused by one crazed man, thant he deaths of foreigners condoned by an entire nation, dont you see the hypocrisy?
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Silver_nz New Zealand. Jul 27 2011 06:39. Posts 5647
baal you have leveled up. whatchya been reading lately?
On July 26 2011 18:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:
if this had been an attack orchestrated by a muslim terrorist group then mentioning norway's involvement in afghanistan, iraq and libya would be prudent, and it would be a relevant discussion. but this is not related to that in any way whatsoever - ABB wanted to start a war, although on our own soil. there's no connection here, none. I don't really care about the jackassery of even bringing it up here, but you're just a broken record by now - not every damn indicent that happens on this planet is related to the horror of the state.
I wasnt ranting about the state but society, and yes violent incidents are related to a violent society.
You talked about the huge compassion and empathy of people bla bla, but then i said where were those people when Norway were killing people abroad?, didnt they condone that violence in those wars?, if they did, how can they act surprised when they condone the murder of thousands of innocents in foreign countries and get a few deaths caused by a violent maniac on their own country?
You said you are no nationalistic but somehow you seem more upset about the deaths of norweigans caused by one crazed man, thant he deaths of foreigners condoned by an entire nation, dont you see the hypocrisy?
this is stupid. you are grasping at straws because you decided to form an argument before you tried to understand what happened here, and then you are trying to find information that somehow fits into the argument you already tried to form, but you ignore any information to the contrary. I'd like to make a long post now, but I have to go to work soon so it will be brief.
1: if norway is a violent nation then every nation is a violent nation, and most nations would be significantly more violent than norway. the accurate description of norway, compared to the rest of the world, is "norway is a peaceful nation". this guy himself killed between 150 and 200% of the average murders per year in norway, and even doing a per-capita calculation leaves norway as one of the least "murderous" countries/societies on earth. also very low with regards to violent crime. according to your logic, we'd be seeing sprees like this regularly in all western countries, but we don't. massacres nowadays, actually tend to originate in say, mexico, or random african country - places where foreign policy is unimportant, where the state has lost control over the country, and at least with regards to random african countries, where they have not been guilty of any type of invasion of foreign countries.
2: norway donates more foreign aid per capita than virtually every other country in the world, and a bigger % of the GDP than every country cept denmark(last I checked at least.) you might state that foreign aid doesn't work, not gonna have that discussion, but foreign aid DOES show a caring mentality.
3: the previous time I participated in, or even witnessed, large scale demonstrations/political parades, was while we protested the iraq war. but we had a different government back then, which ignored that a large majority of the population was staunchly against the invasion. as for afghanistan, while I believe it was a stupid invasion, it was also legitimate. as for libya, our involvement has been rather small, but invading libya was a hasty decision which perhaps should not have been made.. it's fine to critisize these invasions, but the place and timing is just stupid. (although afghanistan and iraq have been debated to death and everyone agrees that iraq was retarded, that afghanistan is impossible to invade but that the reasons for invasion were legitimate, and with libya there's not really any consensus yet.)
4: I care more because I am more exposed to the horror. as you can imagine, the worst event to have happened in norway since world war two does indeed dominate the media. I don't intrinsicly place more value on a norwegian life than on a sudani life, but the closeness of the event, and the exposure I have to the personal destinies of people involved, getting to know how people who were killed were in real life, as well as the fact that I have had many friends and acquaintances present at this very camp in the past (but not this year to my knowledge), makes this more emotionally touching. additionally, if you look at amount of dead and compare it, per capita, to 9/11, then twice as big a percentage of norway's population was killed, than what the case was for usa and 9/11. I know that my brother knew many people who were there, and probably a couple people who were killed, as well. if I didn't respond emotionally to this, there'd be something seriously wrong with my brain.
5: I care more because this event will colour norwegian politics for the next decade - at least. so far, I am thoroughly impressed by the response, politicians are stating that our response to this will be more democracy, more tolerance, more openness (as these are ideas ABB hated), and that this event will not cause an upsurge in surveillance - some guy even stated that "people like anders breivik are not supposed to be detected". and as for your allegations that norway is a violent society, have you not seen the response to this? no norwegians are crying for blood here. people from other nations have been outraged by the idea that this guy is going to get 21 years (+ indefinite jailtime) in a comfy prison cell, norwegians are supportive of our humane prison system and arguing that this one insane person is by no means going to get the priviledge of changing it, or any other aspect of norwegian society, for the worse. I'm not proud to be norwegian (as it is not an accomplishment), but I am extremely happy about it, and I am happy that my fellow countrymen have responded in such a rational way despite the emotional turmoil, and I feel incredibly lucky to have been born here.
I guess this became long anyway. have a nice day.
lol POKER
1
Stroggoz New Zealand. Jul 27 2011 07:50. Posts 5365
I'm a big fan of Norways penal system. To me it is the only penal system i've seen that isn't retarded, i hope this guy gets rehabilitated.
One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beings
is there a moderate geert wilders character in Europe? one that does not put off a lot of people who somewhat agree with their logic?
i really agree with most of what he says, then he goes overboard with like shut down mosques etc and then im like wtf man, the whole fixing the double standard thing was great now you're spewing some radical bs that'll put off a ton of reasonable followers
On July 26 2011 05:22 Milk wrote:
The last pic is pretty true imo.
you can do that kind of childish correlations with anything. i can have picture of baal driving a car and sarcastically call him a hero (in the drivers world) and yet at same time call him greedy , wastefull human being, and blame the worlds dependence of oil on baal's habits and all "those type of people".
Yea real smart stuff.
that is at a terribly stupid straw man argument, your analogy would be absolutely idiotic while mine is quite precise.
Im making a point that people that kill others because their ignorant perception of enemies are monsters and never heroes, you are just making an absolute nonsensical idiotic comparison.
Seriously if you are not going to intelligently defend your points dont do it at all, you just clutter the thread with crap.
the more you write the more you expose your ignorance. You might write 'intelligently' or 'smart' but you lack real knowledge, and think every subject is the same and roots from the same thing, which in your case i call an ideal. You have yet to debate any subject with actual knowledge, just logical (or it seems to you at least) correlations. Your example was as dumb as my example, that's what the point was. Yes the world is rotten, yes people are hypocrits, yes people contradict themselves. Your not the first to come up with this. What are you going to do about it? spew your negative BS to people so they feel ashamed? Teach awareness using regret and shame? Look down on fellow humans? Your nothing more then a troll, ignorant troll.
I wish one of your guys had children if I could kick them in the fucking head or stomp on their testicles so you can feel my pain because thats the pain I have waking up everyday -- Mike Tyson
On July 26 2011 18:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:
if this had been an attack orchestrated by a muslim terrorist group then mentioning norway's involvement in afghanistan, iraq and libya would be prudent, and it would be a relevant discussion. but this is not related to that in any way whatsoever - ABB wanted to start a war, although on our own soil. there's no connection here, none. I don't really care about the jackassery of even bringing it up here, but you're just a broken record by now - not every damn indicent that happens on this planet is related to the horror of the state.
I wasnt ranting about the state but society, and yes violent incidents are related to a violent society.
You talked about the huge compassion and empathy of people bla bla, but then i said where were those people when Norway were killing people abroad?, didnt they condone that violence in those wars?, if they did, how can they act surprised when they condone the murder of thousands of innocents in foreign countries and get a few deaths caused by a violent maniac on their own country?
You said you are no nationalistic but somehow you seem more upset about the deaths of norweigans caused by one crazed man, thant he deaths of foreigners condoned by an entire nation, dont you see the hypocrisy?
this is stupid. you are grasping at straws because you decided to form an argument before you tried to understand what happened here, and then you are trying to find information that somehow fits into the argument you already tried to form, but you ignore any information to the contrary. I'd like to make a long post now, but I have to go to work soon so it will be brief.
1: if norway is a violent nation then every nation is a violent nation, and most nations would be significantly more violent than norway. the accurate description of norway, compared to the rest of the world, is "norway is a peaceful nation". this guy himself killed between 150 and 200% of the average murders per year in norway, and even doing a per-capita calculation leaves norway as one of the least "murderous" countries/societies on earth. also very low with regards to violent crime. according to your logic, we'd be seeing sprees like this regularly in all western countries, but we don't. massacres nowadays, actually tend to originate in say, mexico, or random african country - places where foreign policy is unimportant, where the state has lost control over the country, and at least with regards to random african countries, where they have not been guilty of any type of invasion of foreign countries.
2: norway donates more foreign aid per capita than virtually every other country in the world, and a bigger % of the GDP than every country cept denmark(last I checked at least.) you might state that foreign aid doesn't work, not gonna have that discussion, but foreign aid DOES show a caring mentality.
3: the previous time I participated in, or even witnessed, large scale demonstrations/political parades, was while we protested the iraq war. but we had a different government back then, which ignored that a large majority of the population was staunchly against the invasion. as for afghanistan, while I believe it was a stupid invasion, it was also legitimate. as for libya, our involvement has been rather small, but invading libya was a hasty decision which perhaps should not have been made.. it's fine to critisize these invasions, but the place and timing is just stupid. (although afghanistan and iraq have been debated to death and everyone agrees that iraq was retarded, that afghanistan is impossible to invade but that the reasons for invasion were legitimate, and with libya there's not really any consensus yet.)
4: I care more because I am more exposed to the horror. as you can imagine, the worst event to have happened in norway since world war two does indeed dominate the media. I don't intrinsicly place more value on a norwegian life than on a sudani life, but the closeness of the event, and the exposure I have to the personal destinies of people involved, getting to know how people who were killed were in real life, as well as the fact that I have had many friends and acquaintances present at this very camp in the past (but not this year to my knowledge), makes this more emotionally touching. additionally, if you look at amount of dead and compare it, per capita, to 9/11, then twice as big a percentage of norway's population was killed, than what the case was for usa and 9/11. I know that my brother knew many people who were there, and probably a couple people who were killed, as well. if I didn't respond emotionally to this, there'd be something seriously wrong with my brain.
5: I care more because this event will colour norwegian politics for the next decade - at least. so far, I am thoroughly impressed by the response, politicians are stating that our response to this will be more democracy, more tolerance, more openness (as these are ideas ABB hated), and that this event will not cause an upsurge in surveillance - some guy even stated that "people like anders breivik are not supposed to be detected". and as for your allegations that norway is a violent society, have you not seen the response to this? no norwegians are crying for blood here. people from other nations have been outraged by the idea that this guy is going to get 21 years (+ indefinite jailtime) in a comfy prison cell, norwegians are supportive of our humane prison system and arguing that this one insane person is by no means going to get the priviledge of changing it, or any other aspect of norwegian society, for the worse. I'm not proud to be norwegian (as it is not an accomplishment), but I am extremely happy about it, and I am happy that my fellow countrymen have responded in such a rational way despite the emotional turmoil, and I feel incredibly lucky to have been born here.
I guess this became long anyway. have a nice day.
how on earth do you keep missing the point over and over again man seriously.
Do you think that i am not aware that Norway is one of the best societies on the world? with actually very little violence in it?, (BTW charity donations arent that meaningful i mean USA is the country that donates the most and its the most violent first world country in the world).
To try to put this into perspective im ranting because it feels like people watching a war movie, and then a random dog dies... and the dogs death causes way more emotional shock than the death of a hundred men.
What im trying to say its that i find disturbing that society is horrified by one action yet totally apathetic about another very similar one, there is no difference between this guy and a soldier rolling a grenade into a house in the middle east, actually you are proof of what im saying when you talk about the war you talk about "oh iraq was retarded, afghanistan was ok... libya.. no consensus", i hope you can see in yourself how trivial you speak about those (much worse acts) than what this guy did... just think about it, think how desensitized you (and all of us) are to things we shouldnt be.
And indeed you are lucky of being born in what the best current example of society of our time but if even that society doest oppose attrocities (wars) and produces these kind of monsters then it should send chills down your spine to think what a society like the one i live in produces. (in before "it produces people like you" post )
On July 27 2011 06:50 Stroggoz wrote:
I'm a big fan of Norways penal system. To me it is the only penal system i've seen that isn't retarded, i hope this guy gets rehabilitated.
Agreed, its easy to confuse vengance with justice, and its very hard to quench the blood thirst of people when somebody does things like this, its a testament of temper.
Also morality apart it seems to be a way more effective method than the punishment/deter system by far.
On July 26 2011 05:22 Milk wrote:
The last pic is pretty true imo.
you can do that kind of childish correlations with anything. i can have picture of baal driving a car and sarcastically call him a hero (in the drivers world) and yet at same time call him greedy , wastefull human being, and blame the worlds dependence of oil on baal's habits and all "those type of people".
Yea real smart stuff.
that is at a terribly stupid straw man argument, your analogy would be absolutely idiotic while mine is quite precise.
Im making a point that people that kill others because their ignorant perception of enemies are monsters and never heroes, you are just making an absolute nonsensical idiotic comparison.
Seriously if you are not going to intelligently defend your points dont do it at all, you just clutter the thread with crap.
the more you write the more you expose your ignorance. You might write 'intelligently' or 'smart' but you lack real knowledge, and think every subject is the same and roots from the same thing, which in your case i call an ideal. You have yet to debate any subject with actual knowledge, just logical (or it seems to you at least) correlations. Your example was as dumb as my example, that's what the point was. Yes the world is rotten, yes people are hypocrits, yes people contradict themselves. Your not the first to come up with this. What are you going to do about it? spew your negative BS to people so they feel ashamed? Teach awareness using regret and shame? Look down on fellow humans? Your nothing more then a troll, ignorant troll.
There is no way in hell nobody with half a brain will call me ignorant, even if you strongly disagree with what i say.
Also i am not negative, i am a realist, actually an idealist... i point out to what is wrong in this world so we can change it, you wont ever change anything if you dont first realize its wrong, and maybe if we stop glorifying murder in wars and call soldiers for what they truly are, armies wont be as massive as they are today and we will live in a more peaceful future.
The only thing you got right is on looking down on fellow humans, i just find very hard to "forgive" others for not working on improving themselves and doing whats right, since it makes this world where i live in and its not easy for me to just ignore that and acknowledge nothing will significantly change in my life time, even if i know its the only way to go, that is my cross but thats another subject.
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NMcNasty United States. Jul 27 2011 13:51. Posts 2041
On July 27 2011 06:50 Stroggoz wrote:
I'm a big fan of Norways penal system. To me it is the only penal system i've seen that isn't retarded, i hope this guy gets rehabilitated.
I'm sure Norway's system is 10x better than the US system on average, but seriously you think 21 years is enough for him? He'll get out of prison at an age where he could easily commit acts like this again. It seems like people's lives are being unnecessarily risked as a result of faith in rehabilitation.
On July 27 2011 06:50 Stroggoz wrote:
I'm a big fan of Norways penal system. To me it is the only penal system i've seen that isn't retarded, i hope this guy gets rehabilitated.
I'm sure Norway's system is 10x better than the US system on average, but seriously you think 21 years is enough for him? He'll get out of prison at an age where he could easily commit acts like this again. It seems like people's lives are being unnecessarily risked as a result of faith in rehabilitation.
well, i guess i think that people should be in prison until they are rehabilitated. If we were sure this guy wasn't going to do anything harmful again after 6months, then releasing him after 6 months would be fine. If they cant ever be rehabilitated, then they should should be put on home detention after their prison sentence, or if they are too dangerous, kept in prison forever. To me it makes no sense that someone should stay for years after they have rehabilitated, because that just means as a society we judge which human beings should be punished and which shouldn't. When in fact we are very ignorant about the subject from what i've seen. I mean gays still get executed in saudi arabia for example, and pedo's, mass murdering politcians and sociopaths among heaps of other groups still suffer heaps of hate from the rest of society in the western world, this is one reason why they can't get along with society after they commit crimes and they hate police/authority so much imo. because people don't get them and treat them differently.
Anyway, if you want vengeance, the state shouldn't be the one to issue it. You yourself should be the one to issue it and take the consequences. Well, that is if i believed in vengeance, which i'm not sure if i do or not.
I reckon this guy should be made to live with muslims for a few years, american history x style rehabilitation lol.
oops i went a bit offtopic, anyway those are my extremist views, everyone is free to logically, or more importantly, illogically argue against them.
One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beings
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traxamillion United States. Jul 27 2011 16:43. Posts 10468
this guy can't really be getting only 21 years. I disagree about jail for most things but when it comes to violent crimes some people need to be locked away/put down
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sniderstyle United States. Jul 27 2011 17:23. Posts 2046
It's like a movie. The guy running the camera is a super hero. He's running through the hallways of a building that just blew up, looking to see if anyone is stuck inside. He's sprinting around and checking on people to see if they are okay. Everyone is in a panic. It's surreal to watch, incredible that it even exists.
Genginho: lose today 100 dollar only because of fishs they called and had luck on river
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Surprise United States. Jul 27 2011 17:57. Posts 275
Great video snider, interesting to see inside a real crisis.
On July 27 2011 15:43 traxamillion wrote:
this guy can't really be getting only 21 years. I disagree about jail for most things but when it comes to violent crimes some people need to be locked away/put down
Norway's crime rate but mostly re-incidence rate should speak for itself, it is far smaller than in the United States.
21 years is a loooooong time, he will walk out as an old man, having experienced many things and in the proper enviroment, totally regretful and rehabilitated
On July 27 2011 06:50 Stroggoz wrote:
I'm a big fan of Norways penal system. To me it is the only penal system i've seen that isn't retarded, i hope this guy gets rehabilitated.
I'm sure Norway's system is 10x better than the US system on average, but seriously you think 21 years is enough for him? He'll get out of prison at an age where he could easily commit acts like this again. It seems like people's lives are being unnecessarily risked as a result of faith in rehabilitation.
Unless he is mentally ill after 21 years of rehabilitation the guy wont think like that anymore, i mean he can be forced to have constant psych consults, obviously denying him any right to bear any kind of weapon for life etc.
Some people like lets say, violent schizophrenic cant really be in society, but they shouldnt be in jail either, they should be in a mental hospital.
Also about "lives being risked because of fayth in rehabilitation", well hundreds of lives have been saved because of this faith in other cases, have you seen the documentary? its quite good.
mcnasty, this seems to be overlooked all the time. but he's not going to be released after 21 years. we have a system called "forvaring" (dunno how to translate really), which essentially means that someone can be imprisoned indefinitely if they are not considered rehabilitated. considering that this guy lied to everyone and went to the fullest lenghts imaginable to hide his true thoughts and feelings, for a 9 year long period of time, there is no way he will be able to convince anyone of his rehabilitation; he has lost all credibility. He himself knows this and has stated that he expects to be in jail for the rest of his life.
and baal, it's not that I don't get your point(s) (why care so much about these people when we hardly care about others in other places in the world who have it worse, (and also that soldiers are the same as this guy?)), it's that they are irrelevant points to make. but for the purpose of discussion, I'll write one more post. We care about this because 1: it's shocking. you seemed to imply that it shouldn't have come as any sort of surprise, because we live in a violent society which encourages violence through our foreign policy, but for most people, a killing-spree of this magnitude came as an absolute shock.
2: the sheer horror of what happened. I know that you can't read norwegian, and thus you won't have been exposed to the blogs and facebook comments written by utøya survivors, but some of it is truly gut-wrenching. I mean, this guy is running around laughing after killing people, screaming "there's nowhere to hide!" and "YES" after successful shots, while 17 year old girls are running for their lives together with their best friends. and then they look their best friend into the eyes while her head explodes from the impact of a bullet. (essentially, it was described vividly in some norwegian blogs.)
Now, I know that this also happens in some african countries, in fact it happens on a much grander scale and with greater horror (mass-mutilation, millions of examples of rape and sex-slaves, massacres happening relatively frequently), and northern mexico has experienced more violence in the past couple years than norway has in the past 500, even including this massacre. but sudanese children aren't writing blogs about how they had to crawl on their blistered and infected knees while drinking water from a filthy puddle, or how much desperation and pain they feel due to not having eaten a good meal for the entire duration of their lifves, or and any food at all for 2 days. women from chad aren't writing blogs using a twig controlled by their mouth about how both their arms were chopped off and how they were anally fisted by their own chopped off arm. it's probably happened - humans have an extreme ability to commit absolutely atrocious acts during wartime. (perceived within their own minds or actual war.)
The difference between these, and the reason why we in western countries care more about these kids than about africans who experience equally horrific sufferings, is mostly because it's closer. for norwegians and scandinavians, it's actually closer, and most people I know will basically know someone who knows someone who lost someone. for other western europeans and northern americans, it's closer in regards to societal similarities - it's one thing that this can occur in a situation of continuous warfare, it's a whole other thing when this happens in what is arguably the safest and wealthiest country on the planet - at the very least in the top 5. this happening in norway means that it could happen anywhere. In addition, this was executed by one man, which is signifcant for two reasons: most crimes of equal nature are perpetuated by a group of people where their external pressure to parttake in the atrocies is very strong - in fact not taking part might sometimes put their own well-being in danger, and because it shows how dangerous a single lone wolf can be.
But thirdly, one of the most important reasons why this event deserves continued attention, is the response given. There are few voices in norway shouting for revenge. There's virtually no blood-lust being openly expressed. Just sadness, love, solidarity, caring. And this is a truly beautiful thing to behold; I was well aware of the fact that humans possessed the ability to commit crimes of this nature, but I wasn't aware of the fact that a population could go through this kind of experience without the lust for vengeance consuming the other, more appropriate and helpful emotions. It's been absolutely wonderful to behold, and in a strange way, these last couple of days have revitalized my belief in humanity more so than it has damaged it.
as for the second point, which I am not certain you are making (soldiers being equally bad as this guy), that is quite simply retarded, but as I am not sure you are actually making this point, so I won't bother phrasing an argument.
lol POKER
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blackjacki2 United States. Jul 27 2011 18:43. Posts 2582
On July 27 2011 06:50 Stroggoz wrote:
I'm a big fan of Norways penal system. To me it is the only penal system i've seen that isn't retarded, i hope this guy gets rehabilitated.
I'm sure Norway's system is 10x better than the US system on average, but seriously you think 21 years is enough for him? He'll get out of prison at an age where he could easily commit acts like this again. It seems like people's lives are being unnecessarily risked as a result of faith in rehabilitation.
he doesn't get out in 21 years. in 21 years he becomes eligible for parole. If they don't declare him fit to re-enter society then he stays in prison.
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palak United States. Jul 27 2011 18:46. Posts 4601
forvaring
From ur decription this is known as "parole" in america. His sentence in american based off ur description is "life in jail with chance of parole after 21 yrs of good behavior". Basically after 21 yrs he would go infront of a board of ppl and they would determine if he should be released. If he gets released on parole then must report to a parole officer every so often and may or may not have certain rights taken away. If he was found inillegable for parole he would go back to jail until his next parole meeting.
Does that sound right or did i miss what forvaring is?
EDIT: blackjack beat me to it.
dont tap the glass...im about ready to take a fucking hammer to the aquarium
lol you did it again Drone, i didnt mean as that we shouldnt care about this or that it isnt important (why would i rant about being desensitized then?). on the contrary, i am saying, you should be shocked equally about other stuff equally wrong too.
Maybe not about some random woman in chad dying of hunger where you dont have direct impact, but stopping your country from invading other countries is just as good as tackling and disarming this man
if that is your point then I have answered it.. you can't be shocked equally much by every bad thing that happens on the planet because you'll spend your entire life sobbing if you do. you can't relate to everything that isn't close to you, the world is too big for that and too much bad stuff happens.
similarly you can't celebrate whenever something good happens because you'd die from exhaustion pretty fast.
lol POKER
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traxamillion United States. Jul 27 2011 20:09. Posts 10468
some things can't be atoned for in this life. This guy killed a bunch of kids in cold blood he should be executed
On July 27 2011 18:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:
if that is your point then I have answered it.. you can't be shocked equally much by every bad thing that happens on the planet because you'll spend your entire life sobbing if you do. you can't relate to everything that isn't close to you, the world is too big for that and too much bad stuff happens.
similarly you can't celebrate whenever something good happens because you'd die from exhaustion pretty fast.
agreed, thats why i said to focus on the most immediate things, dying woman in Uganda (low priority) your country actively sending invading troops to poor countries (high priority).
On July 27 2011 19:09 traxamillion wrote:
some things can't be atoned for in this life. This guy killed a bunch of kids in cold blood he should be executed
I am the only one who sees more malice in someone who kills for lets say, economical gain than this? i mean this is obviously more shocking, but i kinda feel more hatred thowards a cold blooded schemer than this guy who is clearly out of his mind.
On July 27 2011 18:35 Baal wrote:
lol you did it again Drone, i didnt mean as that we shouldnt care about this or that it isnt important (why would i rant about being desensitized then?). on the contrary, i am saying, you should be shocked equally about other stuff equally wrong too.
Maybe not about some random woman in chad dying of hunger where you dont have direct impact, but stopping your country from invading other countries is just as good as tackling and disarming this man
Correct me if im wrong, but by that definition your saying that if for example a house explodes (yes explodes) in Australia, you should be equally shocked as if it was your neighbours house? ...
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blackjacki2 United States. Jul 27 2011 21:55. Posts 2582
On July 27 2011 19:09 traxamillion wrote:
some things can't be atoned for in this life. This guy killed a bunch of kids in cold blood he should be executed
I am the only one who sees more malice in someone who kills for lets say, economical gain than this? i mean this is obviously more shocking, but i kinda feel more hatred thowards a cold blooded schemer than this guy who is clearly out of his mind.
Well if you assume that he was clearly out of his mind. I don't see what makes him crazy other than he killed innocent people for his "cause" of "defending his country." Pretty much the same justification that people in the middle east use to kill innocent civilians everyday. Are they insane as well? Or is their cause just more worthy of murder?
I don't think it's possible to spend 9 years plotting and executing a mass-murder of youth stranded on an island without being well within my own interpretation of "insane". whether he's diagnosable is a different question though - and his actions have a certain clarity to them and are seemingly in sync with his own world view.. imo he's acting rationally according to his own beliefs (to simplify, like all humans), but his world view seems fixated on a different planet.
lol POKER
Last edit: 27/07/2011 22:24
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palak United States. Jul 28 2011 00:07. Posts 4601
Saw this on the daily show n figured I'd post it...will post link to the daily show segment when that gets to their website sometime tomorrow.
Pretty sure we can all agree on this being the most ignorant crap on the news in a while. There are some real contenders for dumbfucking shit on the news in America, but this comes along and squashes all competition. It takes about 20 seconds to find references to what church Breivik claims to belong/go to.
Breivik stated an intention to attend Frogner Church in a final "Martyr's mass" before the attacks.
dont tap the glass...im about ready to take a fucking hammer to the aquarium
Last edit: 28/07/2011 03:17
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Stroggoz New Zealand. Jul 28 2011 02:11. Posts 5365
"no one believing in jesus commits mass murder" + Show Spoiler +
One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beings
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qwerty67890 New Zealand. Jul 28 2011 10:56. Posts 14026
pretty sweet digs really, nicer than places ive lived in, LCD TV and remote, lots of natural light, desk and chair for manifesto writing, all it needs is a laptop and an internet connection and youve got a pretty sweet grind station.
On July 27 2011 18:35 Baal wrote:
lol you did it again Drone, i didnt mean as that we shouldnt care about this or that it isnt important (why would i rant about being desensitized then?). on the contrary, i am saying, you should be shocked equally about other stuff equally wrong too.
Maybe not about some random woman in chad dying of hunger where you dont have direct impact, but stopping your country from invading other countries is just as good as tackling and disarming this man
Correct me if im wrong, but by that definition your saying that if for example a house explodes (yes explodes) in Australia, you should be equally shocked as if it was your neighbours house? ...
"maybe about not some random woman in chad", i am adressing exactly your quesiton... sigh.
no im not saying you should be equally shocked about disasters far way, but his country actively killing people in foreign countries is something quite close, caused by the people they elect, so its not as some random house in australia.
On July 27 2011 19:09 traxamillion wrote:
some things can't be atoned for in this life. This guy killed a bunch of kids in cold blood he should be executed
I am the only one who sees more malice in someone who kills for lets say, economical gain than this? i mean this is obviously more shocking, but i kinda feel more hatred thowards a cold blooded schemer than this guy who is clearly out of his mind.
Well if you assume that he was clearly out of his mind. I don't see what makes him crazy other than he killed innocent people for his "cause" of "defending his country." Pretty much the same justification that people in the middle east use to kill innocent civilians everyday. Are they insane as well? Or is their cause just more worthy of murder?
Well you have a valid point there, this guys is quite borderline insane, just like but probably has a full functional brain with no severe trauma or anything, not sure where i would categorize this guy, in the evil calculating murderer or on the edward gain "wear my rotten moms face as a mask" crazy, he is probably in between.
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United States. Jul 22 2011 13:31. Posts 2041
probably not, but tempting.
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