On July 27 2011 06:50 Stroggoz wrote:
I'm a big fan of Norways penal system. To me it is the only penal system i've seen that isn't retarded, i hope this guy gets rehabilitated.
I'm sure Norway's system is 10x better than the US system on average, but seriously you think 21 years is enough for him? He'll get out of prison at an age where he could easily commit acts like this again. It seems like people's lives are being unnecessarily risked as a result of faith in rehabilitation.
Unless he is mentally ill after 21 years of rehabilitation the guy wont think like that anymore, i mean he can be forced to have constant psych consults, obviously denying him any right to bear any kind of weapon for life etc.
Some people like lets say, violent schizophrenic cant really be in society, but they shouldnt be in jail either, they should be in a mental hospital.
Also about "lives being risked because of fayth in rehabilitation", well hundreds of lives have been saved because of this faith in other cases, have you seen the documentary? its quite good.
mcnasty, this seems to be overlooked all the time. but he's not going to be released after 21 years. we have a system called "forvaring" (dunno how to translate really), which essentially means that someone can be imprisoned indefinitely if they are not considered rehabilitated. considering that this guy lied to everyone and went to the fullest lenghts imaginable to hide his true thoughts and feelings, for a 9 year long period of time, there is no way he will be able to convince anyone of his rehabilitation; he has lost all credibility. He himself knows this and has stated that he expects to be in jail for the rest of his life.
and baal, it's not that I don't get your point(s) (why care so much about these people when we hardly care about others in other places in the world who have it worse, (and also that soldiers are the same as this guy?)), it's that they are irrelevant points to make. but for the purpose of discussion, I'll write one more post. We care about this because 1: it's shocking. you seemed to imply that it shouldn't have come as any sort of surprise, because we live in a violent society which encourages violence through our foreign policy, but for most people, a killing-spree of this magnitude came as an absolute shock.
2: the sheer horror of what happened. I know that you can't read norwegian, and thus you won't have been exposed to the blogs and facebook comments written by utøya survivors, but some of it is truly gut-wrenching. I mean, this guy is running around laughing after killing people, screaming "there's nowhere to hide!" and "YES" after successful shots, while 17 year old girls are running for their lives together with their best friends. and then they look their best friend into the eyes while her head explodes from the impact of a bullet. (essentially, it was described vividly in some norwegian blogs.)
Now, I know that this also happens in some african countries, in fact it happens on a much grander scale and with greater horror (mass-mutilation, millions of examples of rape and sex-slaves, massacres happening relatively frequently), and northern mexico has experienced more violence in the past couple years than norway has in the past 500, even including this massacre. but sudanese children aren't writing blogs about how they had to crawl on their blistered and infected knees while drinking water from a filthy puddle, or how much desperation and pain they feel due to not having eaten a good meal for the entire duration of their lifves, or and any food at all for 2 days. women from chad aren't writing blogs using a twig controlled by their mouth about how both their arms were chopped off and how they were anally fisted by their own chopped off arm. it's probably happened - humans have an extreme ability to commit absolutely atrocious acts during wartime. (perceived within their own minds or actual war.)
The difference between these, and the reason why we in western countries care more about these kids than about africans who experience equally horrific sufferings, is mostly because it's closer. for norwegians and scandinavians, it's actually closer, and most people I know will basically know someone who knows someone who lost someone. for other western europeans and northern americans, it's closer in regards to societal similarities - it's one thing that this can occur in a situation of continuous warfare, it's a whole other thing when this happens in what is arguably the safest and wealthiest country on the planet - at the very least in the top 5. this happening in norway means that it could happen anywhere. In addition, this was executed by one man, which is signifcant for two reasons: most crimes of equal nature are perpetuated by a group of people where their external pressure to parttake in the atrocies is very strong - in fact not taking part might sometimes put their own well-being in danger, and because it shows how dangerous a single lone wolf can be.
But thirdly, one of the most important reasons why this event deserves continued attention, is the response given. There are few voices in norway shouting for revenge. There's virtually no blood-lust being openly expressed. Just sadness, love, solidarity, caring. And this is a truly beautiful thing to behold; I was well aware of the fact that humans possessed the ability to commit crimes of this nature, but I wasn't aware of the fact that a population could go through this kind of experience without the lust for vengeance consuming the other, more appropriate and helpful emotions. It's been absolutely wonderful to behold, and in a strange way, these last couple of days have revitalized my belief in humanity more so than it has damaged it.
as for the second point, which I am not certain you are making (soldiers being equally bad as this guy), that is quite simply retarded, but as I am not sure you are actually making this point, so I won't bother phrasing an argument.
lol POKER
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blackjacki2 United States. Jul 27 2011 18:43. Posts 2582
On July 27 2011 06:50 Stroggoz wrote:
I'm a big fan of Norways penal system. To me it is the only penal system i've seen that isn't retarded, i hope this guy gets rehabilitated.
I'm sure Norway's system is 10x better than the US system on average, but seriously you think 21 years is enough for him? He'll get out of prison at an age where he could easily commit acts like this again. It seems like people's lives are being unnecessarily risked as a result of faith in rehabilitation.
he doesn't get out in 21 years. in 21 years he becomes eligible for parole. If they don't declare him fit to re-enter society then he stays in prison.
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palak United States. Jul 27 2011 18:46. Posts 4601
forvaring
From ur decription this is known as "parole" in america. His sentence in american based off ur description is "life in jail with chance of parole after 21 yrs of good behavior". Basically after 21 yrs he would go infront of a board of ppl and they would determine if he should be released. If he gets released on parole then must report to a parole officer every so often and may or may not have certain rights taken away. If he was found inillegable for parole he would go back to jail until his next parole meeting.
Does that sound right or did i miss what forvaring is?
EDIT: blackjack beat me to it.
dont tap the glass...im about ready to take a fucking hammer to the aquarium
lol you did it again Drone, i didnt mean as that we shouldnt care about this or that it isnt important (why would i rant about being desensitized then?). on the contrary, i am saying, you should be shocked equally about other stuff equally wrong too.
Maybe not about some random woman in chad dying of hunger where you dont have direct impact, but stopping your country from invading other countries is just as good as tackling and disarming this man
if that is your point then I have answered it.. you can't be shocked equally much by every bad thing that happens on the planet because you'll spend your entire life sobbing if you do. you can't relate to everything that isn't close to you, the world is too big for that and too much bad stuff happens.
similarly you can't celebrate whenever something good happens because you'd die from exhaustion pretty fast.
lol POKER
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traxamillion United States. Jul 27 2011 20:09. Posts 10468
some things can't be atoned for in this life. This guy killed a bunch of kids in cold blood he should be executed
On July 27 2011 18:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:
if that is your point then I have answered it.. you can't be shocked equally much by every bad thing that happens on the planet because you'll spend your entire life sobbing if you do. you can't relate to everything that isn't close to you, the world is too big for that and too much bad stuff happens.
similarly you can't celebrate whenever something good happens because you'd die from exhaustion pretty fast.
agreed, thats why i said to focus on the most immediate things, dying woman in Uganda (low priority) your country actively sending invading troops to poor countries (high priority).
On July 27 2011 19:09 traxamillion wrote:
some things can't be atoned for in this life. This guy killed a bunch of kids in cold blood he should be executed
I am the only one who sees more malice in someone who kills for lets say, economical gain than this? i mean this is obviously more shocking, but i kinda feel more hatred thowards a cold blooded schemer than this guy who is clearly out of his mind.
On July 27 2011 18:35 Baal wrote:
lol you did it again Drone, i didnt mean as that we shouldnt care about this or that it isnt important (why would i rant about being desensitized then?). on the contrary, i am saying, you should be shocked equally about other stuff equally wrong too.
Maybe not about some random woman in chad dying of hunger where you dont have direct impact, but stopping your country from invading other countries is just as good as tackling and disarming this man
Correct me if im wrong, but by that definition your saying that if for example a house explodes (yes explodes) in Australia, you should be equally shocked as if it was your neighbours house? ...
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blackjacki2 United States. Jul 27 2011 21:55. Posts 2582
On July 27 2011 19:09 traxamillion wrote:
some things can't be atoned for in this life. This guy killed a bunch of kids in cold blood he should be executed
I am the only one who sees more malice in someone who kills for lets say, economical gain than this? i mean this is obviously more shocking, but i kinda feel more hatred thowards a cold blooded schemer than this guy who is clearly out of his mind.
Well if you assume that he was clearly out of his mind. I don't see what makes him crazy other than he killed innocent people for his "cause" of "defending his country." Pretty much the same justification that people in the middle east use to kill innocent civilians everyday. Are they insane as well? Or is their cause just more worthy of murder?
I don't think it's possible to spend 9 years plotting and executing a mass-murder of youth stranded on an island without being well within my own interpretation of "insane". whether he's diagnosable is a different question though - and his actions have a certain clarity to them and are seemingly in sync with his own world view.. imo he's acting rationally according to his own beliefs (to simplify, like all humans), but his world view seems fixated on a different planet.
lol POKER
Last edit: 27/07/2011 22:24
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palak United States. Jul 28 2011 00:07. Posts 4601
Saw this on the daily show n figured I'd post it...will post link to the daily show segment when that gets to their website sometime tomorrow.
Pretty sure we can all agree on this being the most ignorant crap on the news in a while. There are some real contenders for dumbfucking shit on the news in America, but this comes along and squashes all competition. It takes about 20 seconds to find references to what church Breivik claims to belong/go to.
Breivik stated an intention to attend Frogner Church in a final "Martyr's mass" before the attacks.
dont tap the glass...im about ready to take a fucking hammer to the aquarium
Last edit: 28/07/2011 03:17
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Stroggoz New Zealand. Jul 28 2011 02:11. Posts 5365
"no one believing in jesus commits mass murder" + Show Spoiler +
One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beings
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qwerty67890 New Zealand. Jul 28 2011 10:56. Posts 14026
pretty sweet digs really, nicer than places ive lived in, LCD TV and remote, lots of natural light, desk and chair for manifesto writing, all it needs is a laptop and an internet connection and youve got a pretty sweet grind station.
On July 27 2011 18:35 Baal wrote:
lol you did it again Drone, i didnt mean as that we shouldnt care about this or that it isnt important (why would i rant about being desensitized then?). on the contrary, i am saying, you should be shocked equally about other stuff equally wrong too.
Maybe not about some random woman in chad dying of hunger where you dont have direct impact, but stopping your country from invading other countries is just as good as tackling and disarming this man
Correct me if im wrong, but by that definition your saying that if for example a house explodes (yes explodes) in Australia, you should be equally shocked as if it was your neighbours house? ...
"maybe about not some random woman in chad", i am adressing exactly your quesiton... sigh.
no im not saying you should be equally shocked about disasters far way, but his country actively killing people in foreign countries is something quite close, caused by the people they elect, so its not as some random house in australia.
On July 27 2011 19:09 traxamillion wrote:
some things can't be atoned for in this life. This guy killed a bunch of kids in cold blood he should be executed
I am the only one who sees more malice in someone who kills for lets say, economical gain than this? i mean this is obviously more shocking, but i kinda feel more hatred thowards a cold blooded schemer than this guy who is clearly out of his mind.
Well if you assume that he was clearly out of his mind. I don't see what makes him crazy other than he killed innocent people for his "cause" of "defending his country." Pretty much the same justification that people in the middle east use to kill innocent civilians everyday. Are they insane as well? Or is their cause just more worthy of murder?
Well you have a valid point there, this guys is quite borderline insane, just like but probably has a full functional brain with no severe trauma or anything, not sure where i would categorize this guy, in the evil calculating murderer or on the edward gain "wear my rotten moms face as a mask" crazy, he is probably in between.
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