Poker sites seized by FBI - Page 30

Or of course the USA can just attack several islands around Britain

I kept posting and looking @ the previous page and wondering why my posts don`t appear and posting them again lol

Well, maybe PS or FTP were this dumb/greedy or perhaps they felt they had a legit legal ace up their sleave that they plan to save themselves with. I mostly agree with Capaneo but don't believe (yet) that it's the death of those sites.

On April 17 2011 14:29 ggplz wrote: Well, maybe PS or FTP were this dumb/greedy or perhaps they felt they had a legit legal ace up their sleave that they plan to save themselves with. I mostly agree with Capaneo but don't believe (yet) that it's the death of those sites.

yup that's what i was thinking. but they didn't foresee that they were gonna face these indictments:

Ct 1: Conspiracy to violate the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act
Ct 2: Substantive violation of the UIGEA (involving Pokerstars)
Ct 3: Substantive violation of the UIGEA (involving Full Tilt)
Ct 4: Substantive violation of the UIGEA (involving Absolute)
Ct 5: Operation of an illegal gambling business (involving Pokerstars)
Ct 6: Operation of an illegal gambling business (involving Full Tilt)
Ct 7: Operation of an illegal gambling business (involving Absolute)
Ct 8: Conspiracy to commit bank fraud and wire fraud
Ct 9: Conspiracy to commit money laundering

they are fucked with Ct 8 and 9.

A rage comic to show how I feel.

clip from espn Paul Hugel, a defense attorney with Clayman and Rosenberg in New York, represents several online gaming companies. He weighed in on the Neteller comparison: "From the players perspective, my sense from the Neteller prosecutions is the government had a lot of leverage because they had people in custody," he said. "I don't know that's the case here. Eight of 11 defendants are outside the US, still at large. I don't know if the jurisdictions in which they're presently located will be cooperative in their extraditions and you can't tell from what the government made public how much money they actually seized. It looks like the only money seized was that in the U.S. It may be the companies are still in control of the players' funds or the government may control some of them. That would make a big difference from the players' perspective." "The DOJ could in theory take the position that all this money is subject to forfeiture," he continued. "Even though the players committed no crime, the government's position could be that once the money is sent to the online companies, that money becomes proceeds of unlawful activity and subject to forfeiture. That said, I'm not sure the government would try to seize money that is clearly in player accounts, it's just that they could try to do that. I think at the end of the day, it's more of a political decision than a legal decision."

On April 17 2011 15:05 Maynard! wrote: A rage comic to show how I feel.

LOL EXACTLY how I feel except substitute your boss for law school

On April 17 2011 15:10 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + clip from espn Paul Hugel, a defense attorney with Clayman and Rosenberg in New York, represents several online gaming companies. He weighed in on the Neteller comparison: "From the players perspective, my sense from the Neteller prosecutions is the government had a lot of leverage because they had people in custody," he said. "I don't know that's the case here. Eight of 11 defendants are outside the US, still at large. I don't know if the jurisdictions in which they're presently located will be cooperative in their extraditions and you can't tell from what the government made public how much money they actually seized. It looks like the only money seized was that in the U.S. It may be the companies are still in control of the players' funds or the government may control some of them. That would make a big difference from the players' perspective." "The DOJ could in theory take the position that all this money is subject to forfeiture," he continued. "Even though the players committed no crime, the government's position could be that once the money is sent to the online companies, that money becomes proceeds of unlawful activity and subject to forfeiture. That said, I'm not sure the government would try to seize money that is clearly in player accounts, it's just that they could try to do that. I think at the end of the day, it's more of a political decision than a legal decision."

Ok so basically that little hope in my 1st post is very likely gone.


Reality Check

Quick note on the possibility of these angel investors:
In Mar 26 of 2011, around 3 weeks ago, Wynn Resort formed a "strategic patrnership" with PokerStars in an effort to legalize poker in USA and basically tax it. In normal words PokerStars sensed that things are going to get ugly (look at the timing). And tried to partner with Wynn to lobby probably and get a solid foot in USA. Wynn also wanted part of the Online Poker action and got into the deal.

Well, according to Financial Times. On Saturday, yesterday. Wynn just backed down off the deal.

Wynn Resorts on Saturday annulled its strategic relationship formed three weeks ago with PokerStars, while Fertitta Interactive, the owners of Station Casinos, also pulled its recently announced deal with Full Tilt, as the gambling industry scrambled to adjust to the impact of the new US crackdown on the sector’s online activity.

So no angel investor is coming man. Get real, this is a sinking ship and everyone is leaving. What do you expect the PokerStars or FTP support to tell you?

Dear valued customer, Our entire operation is in jeopardy and the people who own over %70 of our company is charged and wanted by literally the most powerful entity in the entire planet and they want us gone. We broke their laws and we will most likely not survive this. We do realize that you have substantial portion of your money and maybe your net worth with us. We also acknowledge that you have spent the past few years with us and planned your entire future life around us. But the reality of the situation is that you will probably not see a dime and we are a dead entity and all of our supporters and partners are leaving us dead in the water at the moment. Please take all your money from our hand which will cripple us even more and try to save yourself. Regards, Support

Do you really think the website will tell you something like this??
Also please guys get real, if you were an investor. And you had money and you see potential in the future of non-american poker business. Where would you invest? Party Poker & Bwin or PokerStars & FullTilt? Really?

These are sinking entities, grab whatever you can and leave and take a look back into in few years down the line. There are not many times in life that it is justified to panic. But if US government, the most powerful entity in the world, is coming to destroy something that your life was planned around it, it is a REALLY good excuse to panic.




1:http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3ffdf8ac-691d-11e0-9040-00144feab49a.html#axzz1JoMX4Jlw

On April 17 2011 14:23 DvoBoardRider wrote: one thing's for sure, no poker site is 100% safe. i thought before that pokerstars was the safest site to put your money in.

no place on earth is 100% safe to deposit your money, the safer it is the most downsides it has, like less interest rate, less availability etc.

capaneo you are an idiot stop spreading unfounded fear.

I did a small testing cash out (since i was planning on slowly cash out a partion of my BR before this) and my 6.5k cashout was approved, so yeah, as everybody with a clue has said many times, your bankrolls are safe, chill.


FWIW, in case the two bigs dont pay, Dwan and Phil Galfond are putting 1 million each to pay back bankrolls, this shows you their confidence and good heart.

they can kiss that 1 mil goodbye b/c ftp sucks huge balls

how about isildur? how much will he donate?


looks like there are tons of trapped depositors playing now, 173k online on 27k tables lol. i can just imagine them playing but having this notion that all they're doing is pretty useless - what i feel each time i play now, at least theyre raking money which can always help the liquidity of stars to pay us

Baal, im not trying to spread any fears, Im just putting facts next to each other and adding up 2+2, if it is coming out five let me know.

The total fine only in count 8 and 9 which is mentioned, but not limited to, is 4.5 billion dollar. read the indictment page 49, paragraph 56b and page 50 paragraph 57. Not only US will get the 4.5billion dollar. They will ALSO get "all of the defendants' right, title and interest in the entities, busineess and accounts described in paragraph 55"


4.5 billion is almost twice as much as Guy Laliberté's total net worth. It is almost 10 times the yearly income of entire Pokerstars and it is around 50 times the income of FTP. That is only the two counts that we know they are guilty of.[ It is not open for debate if US money was getting funneled into PokerStars or FTP. Its only the question of weather it can be proven in a court or not. ]

Additionally, Page 37 of the indictment. Pokerstars is ALSO on the line for 1.5billion on count five (3 years worth of their income at the current level). FTP is on the line for additional 1bil count six(10 years worth of their income at current level) And both of those companies have 70% of their income from American customers.

Who really gives a shit what Dwan and Galfond are doing? It is US Government vs billion dollar corporations fight and we have multi billion dollar, too big too fail, banks involved and on the US government side. And you are reassured because the 25 year old Dwan and Galfond show confidence and good heart?

Again, read the indictment page 49, paragraph 56b and page 50 paragraph 57. Not only US will get the 4.5billion dollar. They will ALSO get "all of the defendants' right, title and interest in the entities, business and accounts described in paragraph 55" So if count 8 or 9 is proven. Not only US government will get all the money mentioned above and more. They will basically own Pokerstars and FTP.

Why are you telling me Im spreading "unfounded fear". I am spreading fear based on what the biggest most powerful entity in the entire planet is saying they will do. You can choose to do whatever you want to do based on Tom Dwan or Pokerstars support is telling you. All Im saying is that I would think it is wiser to read the indictment and listen to the US Government story as well. Look at the facts. If Guy Laliberté put his entire net worth just to cover the fines it will not even be enough for half of it. And you listen to Tom Dwan?

Also what I would say that someone like you,who does this professionally, should do is to just take all your money out of all these sites. Put most of it in a bank. And start playing on Bwin or Party or something. And then take a look back into Stars in 2013. Why is this not logical? How is this advice spreading fear? What you have to loose, maybe you live with a crappy software for a year or two. Maybe your win rate won't be as high for sometime.

How am I spreading fears?

On April 17 2011 17:21 whamm! wrote:at least theyre raking money which can always help the liquidity of stars to pay us

wtf?

On April 17 2011 17:53 capaneo wrote: They will ALSO get "all of the defendants' right, title and interest in the entities, business and accounts described in paragraph 55"

this sounds ridiculous

Slight derail: Has anybody (outside of the US) had success cashing out from FTP using any methods whatsoever? Friend usually uses Moneybookers, but that option seems to be temporarily disabled. Looking into Neteller but would be reassuring if anybody has already successfully cashed out using Neteller (or any other method).

Pretty wary about using checks to cash out (my primary way), because even if the check gets successfully processed and shipped out, it can bounce and not even be valid, etc.