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Loco   Canada. Dec 02 2018 21:02. Posts 20963


  We are indeed controlled by our ego (ego = thoughts), until we finally realize it (become consciouss, enlightment). End of thinking uncontrollably, end of suffering.



Thoughts =/= ego. They are not even at the same level of organization. Thoughts deal with the domain of language, and they can be about neutral and factual observations that have nothing to do with egoic motivations. The ego is a psychic structure that serves an organism that is focused on self-gratification. Humans, endowed with an ego, for self-preservation (and domination) purposes, can and do use language to that end, but it doesn't mean that all thoughts serve that purpose.

Becoming conscious of the ego doesn't end the ego. It's like saying that because you know something is a visual illusion, your brain will shift and you will no longer see the illusion again. It's more sensible to say that the more conscious we are, the more the ego is transformed (or integrated, with views/goals that are more adaptive). New patterns of behavior are made possible once new information is organized. It's like how understanding gravity has made it possible to do new things, like go to the moon. Discovering the law of universal gravitation didn't free us from gravitation.

In meditation, what happens is that we work to suspend the ego, over and over again, to favor exploration and discovery, to better understand its mechanism/nature phenomenologically. We don't annihilate it. The idea that we, "our true self" can and should annihilate it, is just that, an idea, which many people have faith in, but which unfortunately leads them astray. It is not the solution to a "new and more harmonious world". It's a comforting and hyper-simplistic worldview.


 
Good quote. What is the problem with it? I don't see any contradiction.



It's not that difficult to see. You should have a problem with someone who says that man is a machine, and replaceable by machines, if you think that thoughts affect reality in a substantive (and substantial) way, because machines don't need to think at all in order to do what it is they are programmed to do. Does a thermostat need to think in order to "attract" its servomechanism (a human being) in order to change the temperature of the room? Does it need to think in order to work to maintain that room at a fixed temperature? What is the process of causality whereby our thoughts make us "attract things"? Do you have any example of thoughts directly influencing matter and energy? I can think of some ways in which thought is applied to do so, because in a complex system like the brain there is self-organization leading to downward causality, but here there is no direct effect from thoughts, and all that's needed is to include the notion of information, like with Maxwell's demon; there is no need for anything supernatural.

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 03/12/2018 01:14

tutz   Brasil. Dec 02 2018 21:48. Posts 2140

Loco, I can see you want desperately to play this game of logical reasoning with me. I’m sorry my friend, but this is not a discussion about concepts created by the logical mind. This is a discussion about spiritual teachings. Words only go so far as to try to point the direction to a deeper dimension within yourself. Before I try to answer you a little bit more, I’m going to ask a question and I would you to answer them to yourself, not to me here. Or you can also just ignore the question, your call. Here it goes:

Where does the impulse to prove I’m right comes from?

Try to feel the answer, instead of thinking. Focus on your breath, don’t rush. Or your can ignore this, it’s ok.


  Thoughts =/= ego. They are not even at the same level of organization. Thoughts deal with the domain of language, and they can be about neutral and factual observations that have nothing to do with egoic motivations. The ego is a psychic structure that serves an organism that is focused on self-gratification. Humans, endowed with an ego, for self-preservation and domination purposes, can use language to that end, it does so very often, but it doesn't mean that all thoughts serve that purpose.



No, I’m sorry. This is one spiritual realization that one must have: thoughts = ego.
There is no ego without thought.
I’ll not try to give mental concepts to what I’m saying. It’s supposed to be experienced. Words are limited.


  Becoming conscious of the ego doesn't end the ego



It does.


  It's not that difficult to see. You should have a problem with someone who says that man is a machine, and replaceable by machines, if you think that thoughts affect reality in a substantive (and substantial) way, because machines don't need to think at all in order to do what it is they are programmed to do.



It’s undeniable that our brain does functions that a machine can replicate, that’s where the mind is replaceable by machines. I see no problem with that idea. The machine is not a living organism and has no soul, so the processes of the machine have no energy effect in the sense of positive/negative.


  What type of cause and effect allows this process whereby our "thoughts make us attract things"?



Positive thoughts will attract positive events and people, and the opposite is true. Very simple.
________________________________________

Loco, with all due respect. I’m spending way too much energy in this with you, and it has not been very pleasant. I can feel all the negative energy. I'm sure you are not happy spending all this time here. I’m pretty sure I’m not going to convince you, and you are not going to convince me. So can I ask that we politely end this discussion? I say this with peace in my heart. We are just in a different path right now. Just let it go, ok?

Namastê my friend

 Last edit: 02/12/2018 21:56

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. Dec 02 2018 23:14. Posts 9634


  On December 02 2018 16:36 Loco wrote:
Show nested quote +



If you think that our thoughts play a large and continuous role in influencing our behavior, then you should challenge your view and watch the entire Gifford lecture I posted



Would be glad to, can't seem to find them in this thread though and I'm guessing the thing which i googled wasnt the thing you're referring to as it was about natural theology .

My idea is easily validated by the priming effect though

edit: pm me with it or post it here please

 Last edit: 02/12/2018 23:26

longple    Sweden. Dec 02 2018 23:50. Posts 4472


  On December 02 2018 15:35 Loco wrote:
This is well known in neuroscience. See:




ty for shareing loco, good stuff! ended up watching a bunch of the lectures


Loco   Canada. Dec 03 2018 01:32. Posts 20963

How could you not find it Spitfiree? It's right above my current post now that it's been quoted... and yes, the Gifford lectures are branded as "natural theology" (or at least they used to be) but many of the topics they are interested in (like in this case, free will) are topics that are open to empirical investigation. Notable agnostic or atheistic scientists and philosophers have often participated. In this case, Gazzaniga is a leading neuroscientist specializing in split brain/lateralization research. His work clearly shows the way we are essentially programmed to be self-deceived about our agency and the causal efficacy of thoughts.


  My idea is easily validated by the priming effect though



I don't know what you mean/how it is validated by this effect, you'll have to elaborate on this.

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 03/12/2018 01:36

Loco   Canada. Dec 03 2018 01:47. Posts 20963


  On December 02 2018 20:48 tutz wrote:
Loco, I can see you want desperately to play this game of logical reasoning with me. I’m sorry my friend, but this is not a discussion about concepts created by the logical mind. This is a discussion about spiritual teachings. Words only go so far as to try to point the direction to a deeper dimension within yourself. Before I try to answer you a little bit more, I’m going to ask a question and I would you to answer them to yourself, not to me here. Or you can also just ignore the question, your call. Here it goes:

Where does the impulse to prove I’m right comes from?

Try to feel the answer, instead of thinking. Focus on your breath, don’t rush. Or your can ignore this, it’s ok.

Show nested quote +



No, I’m sorry. This is one spiritual realization that one must have: thoughts = ego.
There is no ego without thought.
I’ll not try to give mental concepts to what I’m saying. It’s supposed to be experienced. Words are limited.


  Becoming conscious of the ego doesn't end the ego



It does.


  It's not that difficult to see. You should have a problem with someone who says that man is a machine, and replaceable by machines, if you think that thoughts affect reality in a substantive (and substantial) way, because machines don't need to think at all in order to do what it is they are programmed to do.



It’s undeniable that our brain does functions that a machine can replicate, that’s where the mind is replaceable by machines. I see no problem with that idea. The machine is not a living organism and has no soul, so the processes of the machine have no energy effect in the sense of positive/negative.


  What type of cause and effect allows this process whereby our "thoughts make us attract things"?



Positive thoughts will attract positive events and people, and the opposite is true. Very simple.
________________________________________

Loco, with all due respect. I’m spending way too much energy in this with you, and it has not been very pleasant. I can feel all the negative energy. I'm sure you are not happy spending all this time here. I’m pretty sure I’m not going to convince you, and you are not going to convince me. So can I ask that we politely end this discussion? I say this with peace in my heart. We are just in a different path right now. Just let it go, ok?

Namastê my friend



I'm just having a discussion here, why are you getting defensive and calling me desperate? If you feel challenged that doesn't mean that I'm "playing a game". Those are your feelings and it's up to you to deal with them, what you shouldn't do is make an appeal to motive instead of focusing on the subject that you claim to be on this earth to investigate and teach about. I am also interested in knowledge and wisdom. That's what I've devoted my life to. I'm not here to "win" anything. I rarely post on this website anymore and I am merely taking the opportunity you presented to me to talk about things I am interested in.

Notice how I didn't set out to influence anybody or disprove any of the things that you said in your OP post or further down; in fact I said nothing (other than put Kirlian photography on your radar) until you said you wanted to convince some of the fence sitters with what you called evidence. You essentially baited me into a discussion I didn't want to be having by posting cherry-picked information about some local spiritist you admire, and now you speak as if I am the one desperate to seek out conflict to please my ego.

You also can't see the way you are acting condescendingly, telling me to just "focus," "don't rush" and "breathe" and how "things are okay", trying to paint this picture of me being out of control, obsessed and dominated by my thinking. This is especially awkward considering that I have been meditating for one to two hours every day for the last 3 months, and I just completed 9 days of near total isolation in a vipassana retreat where I meditated for 9-10 hours every day formally, along with meditation in day to day activities. This is a video I took of my room, in which I spent over 95% of my time in, without access to the internet, books, or any form of entertainment. But please, do keep reminding me that I should focus and breathe!


  Positive thoughts will attract positive events and people, and the opposite is true. Very simple.



If it's so simple, then there should be a lot of empirical evidence for it. I mean, this is a falsifiable claim, is it not? Where can I find some of the science that's been done on this attraction mechanism that you won't explain? Is it the same that's in "What the Bleep Do We Know"?

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 03/12/2018 02:11

Loco   Canada. Dec 03 2018 02:28. Posts 20963

You know tutz, in my days as a Tolle reader, before I got to be very suspicious of New Ageism (and now simply disinterested in it), I read a book that's called "The Four Toltec Agreements". You might already know about it, or would probably have known about it. The Four Agreements are:

Be impeccable with your word.
Don't take anything personally.
Don't make assumptions.
Always do your best.

The one that stuck with me the most was to avoid making assumptions. At the time that I heard about it, it was quite freeing to slowly change this pattern of behavior. Assumptions often place a great burden on us. It's something I've sometimes failed at since then, but on the whole I have been quite good with it. It's easy to fail at it on an internet forum though, because the medium is asynchronous, and in order to save time and energy, we tend to want to anticipate our interlocutor's response, which is evidently best done by making assumptions about who they are and what they meant in their post. Unfortunately, it seems you struggle with this one quite a bit yourself. You might find the book of some value to you. Apparently they have also released another version with five agreements instead, though you might not like the one that they added: "be skeptical, but learn to listen."

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 03/12/2018 02:35

drone666   Brasil. Dec 03 2018 03:39. Posts 1821

im picturing this happening soon

Dont listen to anything I say 

Baalim   Mexico. Dec 03 2018 07:42. Posts 34246


  On December 02 2018 16:44 tutz wrote:

Scientific evidence for what I'm saying? I have none, and won't care to look for it. My spiritual guide tought me, and that's it.




Ex-PokerStars Team Pro Online 

Baalim   Mexico. Dec 03 2018 07:52. Posts 34246


  On December 01 2018 10:52 Spitfiree wrote:
Show nested quote +



Gave a pretty good example with Iceman. I don't use "a miracle" as something god-given (considering im an atheist that would be quite of an oxymoron), but rather something that modern science has considered impossible, yet someone achieved it.



a guy who holds some world records about tolerating cold is a miracle? shit the guiness book must be your bible then lol

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Baalim   Mexico. Dec 03 2018 07:56. Posts 34246


  On December 02 2018 14:06 napalm wrote:
Well isn't there a well documented scientific study from a Japanese guy, who was testing the intention/thought/environment effect on the structure of the water, isn't that a good start to ease in skeptical mind into some cool stuff



or there is this cool down to earth Indian girl who has her "3rd eye" opened since birth and she perceives subtler things, you can totally tell that to her its not a big deal, its normal to her and she sees some cool stuff that others don't see



I mean it doesn't require too much intuition and common sense to see that these things are real and there is no deception involved here

btw consider that if by any chance this Japanese guy is correct, what effect does skepticism have on your cells?:D



As loco already said.. the water "experiment" has been proved to be absolute bullshit and the author has never been able to replicate the resulst with scientific rigor....


For a rational person to accept the notion that the arrengement of atoms can be influenced by feelings would require massive amounts of scienetific research, the fact that you accept these things as true without even bothering to google search for the debunking speaks volumes of how rational you really are

Ex-PokerStars Team Pro Online 

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. Dec 03 2018 09:53. Posts 9634


  On December 03 2018 06:52 Baalim wrote:
Show nested quote +



a guy who holds some world records about tolerating cold is a miracle? shit the guiness book must be your bible then lol



The guy has learned himself and others to do it, and its not about what he does but how he does it, which is essentially learn to pump adrenaline in his body on demand, which has been thought to be absolutely impossible. He has some control of his auto-immune system, do you realize how crazy that is?


  On December 03 2018 00:32 Loco wrote:
How could you not find it Spitfiree? It's right above my current post now that it's been quoted... and yes, the Gifford lectures are branded as "natural theology" (or at least they used to be) but many of the topics they are interested in (like in this case, free will) are topics that are open to empirical investigation. Notable agnostic or atheistic scientists and philosophers have often participated. In this case, Gazzaniga is a leading neuroscientist specializing in split brain/lateralization research. His work clearly shows the way we are essentially programmed to be self-deceived about our agency and the causal efficacy of thoughts.

Show nested quote +



I don't know what you mean/how it is validated by this effect, you'll have to elaborate on this.


Legitimately don't see any videos posted by you in this thread, anyway I will check the 3rd lecture ( saw first 30 minutes last night pre-bed but dont see how their argument will be able to fit into the behaviour of people considering they are talking about environments that dont have the same structure/architecture but we ll see)

Anyway, the definition of Priming taken from wikipedia is the following:


  Priming is a technique whereby exposure to one stimulus influences a response to a subsequent stimulus, without conscious guidance or intention



The thing is, we are constantly experiencing stimulus from one source or another, thus generating a response which is somewhat guided by that stimulus. There're plenty of cases done which I'm sure you've done - e.g. group of people split into two, one being given a lecture on death, other on happiness, death group walks slower to the elevator on their way home. That might not directly effect our thoughts, but our subconsciousness which will still effect our thoughts, just in ways which we wont realize unless we really dive in.



  Thoughts =/= ego. They are not even at the same level of organization. Thoughts deal with the domain of language, and they can be about neutral and factual observations that have nothing to do with egoic motivations. The ego is a psychic structure that serves an organism that is focused on self-gratification. Humans, endowed with an ego, for self-preservation (and domination) purposes, can and do use language to that end, but it doesn't mean that all thoughts serve that purpose.



I also agree with this, however I think you've forgotten something just because you're well read and aware of yourself on a much deeper level than the average individual as you can make a clear distinction between what thoughts your ego is evoking, why it is doing them and etc. I think that's tutz's point as well. Be able to reach that level of consciousness, it's easy to define and describe, much harder to actually implement and use.

 Last edit: 03/12/2018 10:45

Big_Rob_isback   United States. Dec 03 2018 10:10. Posts 211

Tutz, are you sure you were ready for the negative energy from your blog post?

I always remember the saying: Don't give advice to anyone unless they ask for it.

I hope we chat again and can stay in touch somehow? I will send you my email through a PM. Sounds like you are devoted to developing yourself quite rapidly. I was pretty devoted for a few years, but lost my drive to be a better more conscious person a few years ago. Becoming a better person is probably the hardest thing to do.

just playing live poker for fun 

Loco   Canada. Dec 03 2018 19:54. Posts 20963


  On December 03 2018 08:53 Spitfiree wrote:
Show nested quote +



The guy has learned himself and others to do it, and its not about what he does but how he does it, which is essentially learn to pump adrenaline in his body on demand, which has been thought to be absolutely impossible. He has some control of his auto-immune system, do you realize how crazy that is?


  On December 03 2018 00:32 Loco wrote:
How could you not find it Spitfiree? It's right above my current post now that it's been quoted... and yes, the Gifford lectures are branded as "natural theology" (or at least they used to be) but many of the topics they are interested in (like in this case, free will) are topics that are open to empirical investigation. Notable agnostic or atheistic scientists and philosophers have often participated. In this case, Gazzaniga is a leading neuroscientist specializing in split brain/lateralization research. His work clearly shows the way we are essentially programmed to be self-deceived about our agency and the causal efficacy of thoughts.

Show nested quote +



I don't know what you mean/how it is validated by this effect, you'll have to elaborate on this.


Legitimately don't see any videos posted by you in this thread, anyway I will check the 3rd lecture ( saw first 30 minutes last night pre-bed but dont see how their argument will be able to fit into the behaviour of people considering they are talking about environments that dont have the same structure/architecture but we ll see)

Anyway, the definition of Priming taken from wikipedia is the following:


  Priming is a technique whereby exposure to one stimulus influences a response to a subsequent stimulus, without conscious guidance or intention



The thing is, we are constantly experiencing stimulus from one source or another, thus generating a response which is somewhat guided by that stimulus. There're plenty of cases done which I'm sure you've done - e.g. group of people split into two, one being given a lecture on death, other on happiness, death group walks slower to the elevator on their way home. That might not directly effect our thoughts, but our subconsciousness which will still effect our thoughts, just in ways which we wont realize unless we really dive in.



  Thoughts =/= ego. They are not even at the same level of organization. Thoughts deal with the domain of language, and they can be about neutral and factual observations that have nothing to do with egoic motivations. The ego is a psychic structure that serves an organism that is focused on self-gratification. Humans, endowed with an ego, for self-preservation (and domination) purposes, can and do use language to that end, but it doesn't mean that all thoughts serve that purpose.



I also agree with this, however I think you've forgotten something just because you're well read and aware of yourself on a much deeper level than the average individual as you can make a clear distinction between what thoughts your ego is evoking, why it is doing them and etc. I think that's tutz's point as well. Be able to reach that level of consciousness, it's easy to define and describe, much harder to actually implement and use.




Now you're talking about stimulus influencing behavior (and therefore thoughts), that's a no brainer. My entire point is precisely that it's the stimuli that affects the behavior of the organism on its environment (and that behavior is programmed to have one finality: the maintenance of its structure), not the thoughts. The thoughts are not in the causal loop deciding on the action. Behavior (response or action on an environment following a stimulus) is unconscious and automatic, but it all happens in a unified way with the conscious mind, that makes us think that there is "someone" in control, someone who can think and understand why he does XYZ and why he will do XYZ in the future, and use thoughts to direct behavior. But this is an illusion and our thoughts are post-hoc (after the fact) interpretations/justifications of processes we are unaware of and thereby cannot control.

I don't understand what you've said in the last paragraph. What is it that I've "forgotten" exactly? You seem to be suggesting I'm the one taking the easy road by doing "descriptions" and you seem to believe it's Tutz who has done the real hard work to "understand the ego". There's nothing more facile than to claim things cannot be explained and they just have to be experienced, and assume that you've experienced them while others have not.

It's also obvious that tutz has fallen into the trap of believing that someone who is interested in empiricism and works with ideas does so at the exclusion of mindfulness or "presence". In my experience, having been part of such a community, this is what almost inevitably happens with people who follow popular new age teachers like Tolle. They quickly come to see themselves as more conscious than others, and give themselves the role of educator, with the motivation behind this the grand narrative of "shifting the consciousness on the planet". Sounds noble enough, except it's juvenile and self-serving; it's also what's really extremely easy since they are following a very basic script, and it fails miserably, because they're not above their egos. It's a sign of lack of spiritual development to give unsolicited advice and offer help in the form of spiritual guidance to others. It says "I need to feel good about myself", "I need to be in a position of influence".

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 03/12/2018 20:53

tutz   Brasil. Dec 03 2018 22:44. Posts 2140


  On December 03 2018 09:10 Big_Rob_isback wrote:
Tutz, are you sure you were ready for the negative energy from your blog post?

I always remember the saying: Don't give advice to anyone unless they ask for it.

I hope we chat again and can stay in touch somehow? I will send you my email through a PM. Sounds like you are devoted to developing yourself quite rapidly. I was pretty devoted for a few years, but lost my drive to be a better more conscious person a few years ago. Becoming a better person is probably the hardest thing to do.




 
Tutz, are you sure you were ready for the negative energy from your blog post?



Ready yeah, but I'm certainly not used to it anymore... Since a few months ago I decided to create total harmony in my life, which means staying away from any form of negativity, but sometimes it's inevitable


 
I always remember the saying: Don't give advice to anyone unless they ask for it.



Very true! But I'm glad I created this blog post. I know some seeds were planted, and will eventually blossom


 
I hope we chat again and can stay in touch somehow? I will send you my email through a PM. Sounds like you are devoted to developing yourself quite rapidly. I was pretty devoted for a few years, but lost my drive to be a better more conscious person a few years ago. Becoming a better person is probably the hardest thing to do



Of course man, we can stay in touch. Send me an e-mail whenever you want: arthuraml@gmail.com. You can also find me on whatsapp (the only social media I use): +5511945639495. I will gladly help you with what I can. It's important to me now that I learn how to teach and how to best convey spiritual knowledge to others. I'm very devoted to my spiritual path indeed. Other than doing my daily job, all I do is acquire more knowledge about our universe. And eventually I smoke some weed to relax too (as I'm about to do, lol). Thank you for your words.

Namastê my friend

 Last edit: 03/12/2018 22:47

tutz   Brasil. Dec 03 2018 22:54. Posts 2140

.

 Last edit: 03/12/2018 23:00

Baalim   Mexico. Dec 04 2018 02:35. Posts 34246


  On December 03 2018 21:44 tutz wrote:


Ready yeah, but I'm certainly not used to it anymore... Since a few months ago I decided to create total harmony in my life, which means staying away from any form of negativity, but sometimes it's inevitable




So cliffnotes of Tutz belief system:

I dont have any evidence for my beliefs

I dont care that I dont because my spiritual guide taught me, thats all I need.

Also I decided to stay away from opinions that contradict my beliefs.


-------

yep, what could go wrong?

Ex-PokerStars Team Pro OnlineLast edit: 04/12/2018 05:38

RiKD    United States. Dec 04 2018 03:21. Posts 8445

Seems to be the way for every "spiritual" teacher I have come across so far. I don't even know what spiritual means anymore.


Loco   Canada. Dec 04 2018 06:14. Posts 20963

To be fair, that quote has nothing to do with spirituality; it sounds right out of a positive thinking seminar. It's only in the new age movement that the two can be conflated.

If tutz wants total harmony, he better escape for another universe, because this one only exists through the antagonistic and complementary generative forces of chaos and order, there is not one without the other, and there is no escaping it at any level of organization. Total harmony, just like total chaos, is death. Nothing can live at either extremes. If we were always at peace and fully satiated, we'd have no more goals, no reason to protect our biological structure. If spiritual evolution is the goal, as he previously stated that it was, then disorder is necessary. A regulated system is one where nothing new ever happens, so no evolution is possible.

fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccountLast edit: 04/12/2018 06:23

tutz   Brasil. Dec 04 2018 15:18. Posts 2140



Everything this man says in this video is truth.

If you have questions, I can answer them.

Namastê.

 Last edit: 04/12/2018 15:23

 
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