Spiritual Awakening

Thank you for the story.

Give the first 6-10 minutes a go, if doubt arises. You're welcome! If rejection or fear or, no offence, arrogance arises, you're also welcome. Heck, whatever arises, you're welcome!

Namajst master!

it's amazing what the midn can come up with

On November 29 2018 11:23 longple wrote: Thank you for the story. Give the first 6-10 minutes a go, if doubt arises. You're welcome! If rejection or fear or, no offence, arrogance arises, you're also welcome. Heck, whatever arises, you're welcome! Namajst master!

10 minutes in, and everything so far is true. Thank you

I pressed ctrl+f and searched for the keyword drugs and had no results

On November 29 2018 20:16 drone666 wrote: I pressed ctrl+f and searched for the keyword drugs and had no results

hahahaha vc é BR então para você recomendo que assista os vídeos do Prof. Laercio Fonseca no Youtube.

Caso tenha interesse no tema, claro

" This is because plants have a much higher vibration frequency than animal-based food and so it becomes much easier to access higher states of consciousness if you eat vegetables only "
up to this point I was just reading, this is when the serious started
This sentence basically makes zero sense in any definition of the words involved and I now don't see the point of reading this text wall any further. Well perhaps later when I'm not tired af I could give the rest of it a try

On November 29 2018 20:34 lebowski wrote: " This is because plants have a much higher vibration frequency than animal-based food and so it becomes much easier to access higher states of consciousness if you eat vegetables only " up to this point I was just reading, this is when the serious started This sentence basically makes zero sense in any definition of the words involved and I now don't see the point of reading this text wall any further. Well perhaps later when I'm not tired af I could give the rest of it a try

I wish I could explain it scientifically to you, but I can't. The vibrational frequency of food can't be mesured by our wordly science.

I wrote what I learned and what worked for me. I'm sorry I couldn't be more scientifically precise. I made my best to be the least esoteric as possible, since I know LP is a place of skepticism.

What my spiritual guide tells me is that our food industry creates a lot of pain and suffering in animals before killing them. This energy accumulates in their body and holds down the vibrational frequency of the food. Plants, on the other hand, specially those fresh from nature, have a very high vibrational frequency, since they hold all their vital energy almost intact.

I hope you can read the rest anyway my friend.

Namastê

I kind of had the same reaction, everything made sense up to that sentence. Then again it would be logical to acquire "esoteric" knowledge if the sequence of actions you take is something that a very small number of people take, otherwise everyone would've acquired a higher state of mind?

Anyway I've met up with a lot of people that have claimed to have found their spiritual guide, my parents met a couple in '98 ( I was 7 at the time) and the woman claimed to have found her spiritual guide as well (they had lived in Tibet and India for quite a while and were just returning) and that he/she/it? manifests in front of her. Obviously I didn't really understand much at the time as i was a little kid, but what made a huge impression to me and is something i cannot figure out to this day is, a month after they met my parents, they came as guests to our house and showed us a picture, one half of which was their living room (in another city), the other half of it was our living room (they had never before been here) and in the middle was something like a presence, like a shape in the air almost. I don't think I will ever be able to explain this to myself, I don't think a higher consciousness would allow you to do that thing either, but that was probably the weirdest thing that I've ever seen in my life.

Looking back at them, she became Bulgaria's most famous astrologist a year later and still is to this day and thats where all of my doubts lie. Every person I've ever met that was searching for higher consciousness or has claimed to reach it has always believed in astrology which is borderline retarded in my opinion. Anyway, you're probably the 5th adequate person that recommend Eckhart Tolle so I will probably get his "the power of now".

It's not that I don't believe you, it's rather... even if all you're saying is true, so what? Whats the point of going for higher consciousness to that extent? Certainly being aware of your ego and stopping its power episodes is something everyone can benefit from, but apart from that how would it be helpful? I certainly hope that this is not the only way in which people will be good and stop putting themselves first, otherwise we're doomed as species (which we probably are anyway). The people of the forum should have developed a fairly good way to detach themselves from their ego though since we tend to view our possessions as something abstract, which could be gone any second and we'd be fine with it. It would be much harder with people though.

Feels like you're living in a good balance between your rational mind and the spiritual, so congrats to you

On November 29 2018 20:45 tutz wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2018 20:34 lebowski wrote: " This is because plants have a much higher vibration frequency than animal-based food and so it becomes much easier to access higher states of consciousness if you eat vegetables only " up to this point I was just reading, this is when the serious started This sentence basically makes zero sense in any definition of the words involved and I now don't see the point of reading this text wall any further. Well perhaps later when I'm not tired af I could give the rest of it a try I wish I could explain it scientifically to you, but I can't. The vibrational frequency of food can't be mesured by our wordly science. I wrote what I learned and what worked for me. I'm sorry I couldn't be more scientifically precise. I made my best to be the least esoteric as possible, since I know LP is a place of skepticism. What my spiritual guide tells me is that our food industry creates a lot of pain and suffering in animals before killing them. This energy accumulates in their body and holds down the vibrational frequency of the food. Plants, on the other hand, specially those fresh from nature, have a very high vibrational frequency, since they hold all their vital energy almost intact. I hope you can read the rest anyway my friend. Namastê

the statement you made is clearly empirically testable though. If vegetable diets make some sort of high level consciousness unlockable then you can just test that by comparing vegetable eaters to non vegetable eaters and comparing the difference.

On November 29 2018 22:22 Spitfiree wrote: I kind of had the same reaction, everything made sense up to that sentence. Then again it would be logical to acquire "esoteric" knowledge if the sequence of actions you take is something that a very small number of people take, otherwise everyone would've acquired a higher state of mind? Anyway I've met up with a lot of people that have claimed to have found their spiritual guide, my parents met a couple in '98 ( I was 7 at the time) and the woman claimed to have found her spiritual guide as well (they had lived in Tibet and India for quite a while and were just returning) and that he/she/it? manifests in front of her. Obviously I didn't really understand much at the time as i was a little kid, but what made a huge impression to me and is something i cannot figure out to this day is, a month after they met my parents, they came as guests to our house and showed us a picture, one half of which was their living room (in another city), the other half of it was our living room (they had never before been here) and in the middle was something like a presence, like a shape in the air almost. I don't think I will ever be able to explain this to myself, I don't think a higher consciousness would allow you to do that thing either, but that was probably the weirdest thing that I've ever seen in my life. Looking back at them, she became Bulgaria's most famous astrologist a year later and still is to this day and thats where all of my doubts lie. Every person I've ever met that was searching for higher consciousness or has claimed to reach it has always believed in astrology which is borderline retarded in my opinion. Anyway, you're probably the 5th adequate person that recommend Eckhart Tolle so I will probably get his "the power of now". It's not that I don't believe you, it's rather... even if all you're saying is true, so what? Whats the point of going for higher consciousness to that extent? Certainly being aware of your ego and stopping its power episodes is something everyone can benefit from, but apart from that how would it be helpful? I certainly hope that this is not the only way in which people will be good and stop putting themselves first, otherwise we're doomed as species (which we probably are anyway). The people of the forum should have developed a fairly good way to detach themselves from their ego though since we tend to view our possessions as something abstract, which could be gone any second and we'd be fine with it. It would be much harder with people though. Feels like you're living in a good balance between your rational mind and the spiritual, so congrats to you

Astrology is real, but not really. Let me explain. Our civilization, in it's current state of consciousness, has a tendency to take esoteric truths and transform them into lies. It is true for instance, that the position celestial bodies affect the energies of the planet. But not enough to make little changes in individual personalities, but rather big changes in a societal level. This is why we are going through a massive shift in consciousness. If I go deeper into this, you will start rolling you eyes, if you haven't already.

It is important to control the rational mind a bit if you wanna go into the spiritual path. It's not that you become a mindless believer, but rather, try to put your rational questions aside sometimes. We try to make sense of everything with our mind, but we forget we are in a flying ball rolling through the universe around a giant ball of fire, not knowing what the hell is all of this, and yet we have the arrogance of thinking our simple monkey minds can make sense of it all. It can't.

Sometimes, when I ask questions to my spiritual guide, he says: you don't need to know that right now. Other times he answers: you can't understand that yet. Either way, I just smile and accept. I'm free from having to make sense of every little thing, which is a huge blessing to me.
You made an excellent question: “Whats the point of going for higher consciousness to that extent?”
I’ll tell you what I learned in the most summarized possible way, so please bear with me. I’ll give you the best explanation our monkey mind is able to make sense. There is a cosmic intelligence that created the universe, and most people call this God. I like the Hindu word for it: Brahma. Let’s call him that. Brahma divided himself into everything there is. You and me included. We are part of the game created by Brahma, and the catch is we have to find out we are him. Brahma created the illusion of separation, the illusion that we are individuals, that is what we call the ego. The only way to remember we are Brahma is through unconditional love, denial of the ego. Why would you hate anything, if you are everything? If you are everything, you will love everything. The more love we emanate, the more enlightened we are. The more love, the less ego. When you treat a total stranger with kindness of heart, there is love. When you roll your eyes at people less fortunate than you, there is ego. If you die and you didn’t yet found out who you are, you will reincarnate again. Between one reincarnation and the other, you will be able to spend decades analyzing every action you took in your past life, and planning the next life with your spiritual guides. And as there can’t be any injustice in the Universe, because Brahma is perfect, if you used your ego to harm anyone, to create any negativity, you will have to suffer in the next life: that’s Karma. You will play this game until you remember who you are. When you finally reach enlightment in this 3D world, you will be able to ascend to a higher dimension of consciousness, to a more blissful state of being.

I think I already answered your question for the most part, but let me know if you wanna know more. I’m here as a messenger.

"I bow to the divine in you" (Namastê)

On November 29 2018 22:51 Stroggoz wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2018 20:45 tutz wrote:   On November 29 2018 20:34 lebowski wrote: " This is because plants have a much higher vibration frequency than animal-based food and so it becomes much easier to access higher states of consciousness if you eat vegetables only " up to this point I was just reading, this is when the serious started This sentence basically makes zero sense in any definition of the words involved and I now don't see the point of reading this text wall any further. Well perhaps later when I'm not tired af I could give the rest of it a try I wish I could explain it scientifically to you, but I can't. The vibrational frequency of food can't be mesured by our wordly science. I wrote what I learned and what worked for me. I'm sorry I couldn't be more scientifically precise. I made my best to be the least esoteric as possible, since I know LP is a place of skepticism. What my spiritual guide tells me is that our food industry creates a lot of pain and suffering in animals before killing them. This energy accumulates in their body and holds down the vibrational frequency of the food. Plants, on the other hand, specially those fresh from nature, have a very high vibrational frequency, since they hold all their vital energy almost intact. I hope you can read the rest anyway my friend. Namastê the statement you made is clearly empirically testable though. If vegetable diets make some sort of high level consciousness unlockable then you can just test that by comparing vegetable eaters to non vegetable eaters and comparing the difference.

But how would you test a higher level of consciousness? Different brain waves? Maybe that could work

On November 29 2018 20:45 tutz wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2018 20:34 lebowski wrote: " This is because plants have a much higher vibration frequency than animal-based food and so it becomes much easier to access higher states of consciousness if you eat vegetables only " up to this point I was just reading, this is when the serious started This sentence basically makes zero sense in any definition of the words involved and I now don't see the point of reading this text wall any further. Well perhaps later when I'm not tired af I could give the rest of it a try I wish I could explain it scientifically to you, but I can't. The vibrational frequency of food can't be mesured by our wordly science. I wrote what I learned and what worked for me. I'm sorry I couldn't be more scientifically precise. I made my best to be the least esoteric as possible, since I know LP is a place of skepticism. What my spiritual guide tells me is that our food industry creates a lot of pain and suffering in animals before killing them. This energy accumulates in their body and holds down the vibrational frequency of the food. Plants, on the other hand, specially those fresh from nature, have a very high vibrational frequency, since they hold all their vital energy almost intact. I hope you can read the rest anyway my friend. Namastê

I see you're still a New Ageism white belt my friend ... the "science" you are looking for is called Kirlian photography. Used to be all the rage in raw vegan circles pre-2010. Here's your "vibrational energy"!

Hi Tutz! Nothing you wrote sounded strange to me at all. In fact, I think you still have plenty of stuff to journey through.

I am a Man in need of a lot of help, maybe you can help even the smallest bit. I have chronic fatigue syndrome which was slowly developed after I had a bunch of concussions (blows to the head). I have been ill for 8 years now since 2010, with fatigue and inability to recover after physical or mental exertion. The other symptoms are just as severe as the fatigue, and just as interesting.

1) My brain feels like electricity is flowing through it, it is slightly painful, all day every day.
2) My ears ring extremely loudly because of this
3) I have severe depersonalization/derealization for 8 years now (also known as enlightenments evil twin). It is the worst symptom I would say, to feel like I don't exist and I am just watching a movie of myself interact with a world that doesn't even feel fully real. This symptom could be seen as a positive, but in my case it is entirely a pathological illness.
4) I cannot meditate, at all. If I do I just become even more severely detached from myself and the world, and more depressed and anxious. One of my mentors told me to stay away from meditation for now. It is frustrating, because I can easily sit still for hours surrendering to watching myself breathe, but I guess that is just not what my life needs. The only form of "meditation" that improves myself is when I go to nature and calmly rest with my eyes open for a few hours and just try to be as present as possible.
5) Extreme sensitivity anything that raises brain neurotransmitters. The smallest dosage of an antidepressant or the smallest puff of marijuana will make my brain feel like it is getting zapped, along with making my mind go a million miles an hour, it is torture. I do take small dosages of anti-seizure drugs from a psychiatrist and it has helped my symptoms though.

Every symptom keeps getting worse by the month. I was told by one of my spiritual mentors that there is something I am afraid of that I am not facing, and it is causing my body to be stuck in a state of fear. He told me to find a teacher, and that he was not himself qualified to help someone in my state.

I have tried a lot of energy medicine like homeopathy, reiki, and this form of acupuncture called "neural therapy". These energy medicine experiences were experiencing God, or "spirit". I came to learn you cannot come to know God through learning, but rather God is an experience.

Also, I have read all of Eckhart Tolle, seen him live and in person. All of Eckhart is 100% truth, no doubt. I have also seen around 6 shamans and have had various shamanic rituals performed that have been learning experiences themselves. One such experience it seemed as though I encountered my "demon", and it scared the hell out of me and made me cry like a 4 year old for 10 minutes in front of 3 shamans lol. I have no idea how I would be able to stand up to that demon alone, or even if it is something that is the core problem.

Anyway, I know this is a long post, but if you want to respond here thats great, you can also personal message me through the site. I wish you all the best

On November 30 2018 00:25 tutz wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2018 22:22 Spitfiree wrote: I kind of had the same reaction, everything made sense up to that sentence. Then again it would be logical to acquire "esoteric" knowledge if the sequence of actions you take is something that a very small number of people take, otherwise everyone would've acquired a higher state of mind? Anyway I've met up with a lot of people that have claimed to have found their spiritual guide, my parents met a couple in '98 ( I was 7 at the time) and the woman claimed to have found her spiritual guide as well (they had lived in Tibet and India for quite a while and were just returning) and that he/she/it? manifests in front of her. Obviously I didn't really understand much at the time as i was a little kid, but what made a huge impression to me and is something i cannot figure out to this day is, a month after they met my parents, they came as guests to our house and showed us a picture, one half of which was their living room (in another city), the other half of it was our living room (they had never before been here) and in the middle was something like a presence, like a shape in the air almost. I don't think I will ever be able to explain this to myself, I don't think a higher consciousness would allow you to do that thing either, but that was probably the weirdest thing that I've ever seen in my life. Looking back at them, she became Bulgaria's most famous astrologist a year later and still is to this day and thats where all of my doubts lie. Every person I've ever met that was searching for higher consciousness or has claimed to reach it has always believed in astrology which is borderline retarded in my opinion. Anyway, you're probably the 5th adequate person that recommend Eckhart Tolle so I will probably get his "the power of now". It's not that I don't believe you, it's rather... even if all you're saying is true, so what? Whats the point of going for higher consciousness to that extent? Certainly being aware of your ego and stopping its power episodes is something everyone can benefit from, but apart from that how would it be helpful? I certainly hope that this is not the only way in which people will be good and stop putting themselves first, otherwise we're doomed as species (which we probably are anyway). The people of the forum should have developed a fairly good way to detach themselves from their ego though since we tend to view our possessions as something abstract, which could be gone any second and we'd be fine with it. It would be much harder with people though. Feels like you're living in a good balance between your rational mind and the spiritual, so congrats to you You made an excellent question: “Whats the point of going for higher consciousness to that extent?” I’ll tell you what I learned in the most summarized possible way, so please bear with me. I’ll give you the best explanation our monkey mind is able to make sense. There is a cosmic intelligence that created the universe, and most people call this God. I like the Hindu word for it: Brahma. Let’s call him that. Brahma divided himself into everything there is. You and me included. We are part of the game created by Brahma, and the catch is we have to find out we are him. Brahma created the illusion of separation, the illusion that we are individuals, that is what we call the ego. The only way to remember we are Brahma is through unconditional love, denial of the ego. Why would you hate anything, if you are everything? If you are everything, you will love everything. The more love we emanate, the more enlightened we are. The more love, the less ego. When you treat a total stranger with kindness of heart, there is love. When you roll your eyes at people less fortunate than you, there is ego. If you die and you didn’t yet found out who you are, you will reincarnate again. Between one reincarnation and the other, you will be able to spend decades analyzing every action you took in your past life, and planning the next life with your spiritual guides. And as there can’t be any injustice in the Universe, because Brahma is perfect, if you used your ego to harm anyone, to create any negativity, you will have to suffer in the next life: that’s Karma. You will play this game until you remember who you are. When you finally reach enlightment in this 3D world, you will be able to ascend to a higher dimension of consciousness, to a more blissful state of being. (Namastê)

That's my main question though. I don't need to reach higher conscousness to be good to other people, sure my ego sometimes show, but in the long run there is absolutely no reason to let yourself be a bad person. I'd rather have everyone do whatever they want to do without judging them as long as they dont harm anyone else. It feels like the only difference in my point of view and yours is that in yours, the ego is almost completely gone as far as i understand?

never go full newage retarded housewife

On November 29 2018 22:22 Spitfiree wrote: Feels like you're living in a good balance between your rational mind and the spiritual, so congrats to you

what the hell are you talking about, where is the rational mind in all that dribble? its new age nonsense that nobody with an IQ higher than a snail should fall for.

not really, seems like he would exactly not post something like you just posted cause he s of full control of his mind, he would make the same point using some valid arguments which would push you towards changing your mind

there s really zero reasons to express yourself with negative emotions ever if you're in control all the time (not judging you, i react like that on many occasions)

also I dont believe most of the things he s saying, but I have respect of the way he s handling himself in a topic which would receive a lot of hate. e.g. reincarnation doesn't make much sense as what would be the "architecture" of the process , we constantly have new people being born, yet animals go extinct... does the animal energy group up and reincarnate into a person or what,and thats the very basic question to begin with.... obv, the answer will probably be that our rational mind cant comprehend it, however i think everyone should decide for themselves if they can comprehend something or not, and at least give them the opportunity to

On November 30 2018 01:28 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2018 20:45 tutz wrote:   On November 29 2018 20:34 lebowski wrote: " This is because plants have a much higher vibration frequency than animal-based food and so it becomes much easier to access higher states of consciousness if you eat vegetables only " up to this point I was just reading, this is when the serious started This sentence basically makes zero sense in any definition of the words involved and I now don't see the point of reading this text wall any further. Well perhaps later when I'm not tired af I could give the rest of it a try I wish I could explain it scientifically to you, but I can't. The vibrational frequency of food can't be mesured by our wordly science. I wrote what I learned and what worked for me. I'm sorry I couldn't be more scientifically precise. I made my best to be the least esoteric as possible, since I know LP is a place of skepticism. What my spiritual guide tells me is that our food industry creates a lot of pain and suffering in animals before killing them. This energy accumulates in their body and holds down the vibrational frequency of the food. Plants, on the other hand, specially those fresh from nature, have a very high vibrational frequency, since they hold all their vital energy almost intact. I hope you can read the rest anyway my friend. Namastê I see you're still a New Ageism white belt my friend ... the "science" you are looking for is called Kirlian photography. Used to be all the rage in raw vegan circles pre-2010. Here's your "vibrational energy"!

I have never seen that before, thank you for the information.
I will read more about it

On November 30 2018 07:00 Big_Rob_isback wrote: Hi Tutz! Nothing you wrote sounded strange to me at all. In fact, I think you still have plenty of stuff to journey through.

Thank you dear friend. You are right, my journey still is just beggining. Everything about this is very new to me.

I am a Man in need of a lot of help, maybe you can help even the smallest bit. I have chronic fatigue syndrome which was slowly developed after I had a bunch of concussions (blows to the head). I have been ill for 8 years now since 2010, with fatigue and inability to recover after physical or mental exertion. The other symptoms are just as severe as the fatigue, and just as interesting. 1) My brain feels like electricity is flowing through it, it is slightly painful, all day every day. 2) My ears ring extremely loudly because of this 3) I have severe depersonalization/derealization for 8 years now (also known as enlightenments evil twin). It is the worst symptom I would say, to feel like I don't exist and I am just watching a movie of myself interact with a world that doesn't even feel fully real. This symptom could be seen as a positive, but in my case it is entirely a pathological illness. 4) I cannot meditate, at all. If I do I just become even more severely detached from myself and the world, and more depressed and anxious. One of my mentors told me to stay away from meditation for now. It is frustrating, because I can easily sit still for hours surrendering to watching myself breathe, but I guess that is just not what my life needs. The only form of "meditation" that improves myself is when I go to nature and calmly rest with my eyes open for a few hours and just try to be as present as possible. 5) Extreme sensitivity anything that raises brain neurotransmitters. The smallest dosage of an antidepressant or the smallest puff of marijuana will make my brain feel like it is getting zapped, along with making my mind go a million miles an hour, it is torture. I do take small dosages of anti-seizure drugs from a psychiatrist and it has helped my symptoms though. Every symptom keeps getting worse by the month. I was told by one of my spiritual mentors that there is something I am afraid of that I am not facing, and it is causing my body to be stuck in a state of fear. He told me to find a teacher, and that he was not himself qualified to help someone in my state. I have tried a lot of energy medicine like homeopathy, reiki, and this form of acupuncture called "neural therapy". These energy medicine experiences were experiencing God, or "spirit". I came to learn you cannot come to know God through learning, but rather God is an experience. Also, I have read all of Eckhart Tolle, seen him live and in person. All of Eckhart is 100% truth, no doubt. I have also seen around 6 shamans and have had various shamanic rituals performed that have been learning experiences themselves. One such experience it seemed as though I encountered my "demon", and it scared the hell out of me and made me cry like a 4 year old for 10 minutes in front of 3 shamans lol. I have no idea how I would be able to stand up to that demon alone, or even if it is something that is the core problem. Anyway, I know this is a long post, but if you want to respond here thats great, you can also personal message me through the site. I wish you all the best

First I would like to say I'm not a healer of any kind, I don't have (or didn't develop yet) those habilities, and I don't know much about this form of esoteric knowledge yet, I'm still learning.

Thank you for your question and I'm sorry to hear about your condition.

I think I can say a few things about your case:
-Fear is indeed the 'feeling' that hinders spiritual development the most; and hidden fears are even worse I believe, since you don't know how to face them
-We must all come to the realization that there is nothing to be feared in a world where we are creation itself (I think you know that)
-I believe your hidden fear can be something from a past life that you probably need to solve within yourself in this life in order to take the next steps in your journey; have you thought about doing Quantum Hypnosis? I have heard great things about it from people that went through somewhat similar experiences, but I don't know enough about it myself in order to recommend who to look for, but I'm sure you can do a little research about it, or even ask your mentor about it.

I hope you find your answers my friend

Namastê

On November 29 2018 22:51 Stroggoz wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2018 20:45 tutz wrote:   On November 29 2018 20:34 lebowski wrote: " This is because plants have a much higher vibration frequency than animal-based food and so it becomes much easier to access higher states of consciousness if you eat vegetables only " up to this point I was just reading, this is when the serious started This sentence basically makes zero sense in any definition of the words involved and I now don't see the point of reading this text wall any further. Well perhaps later when I'm not tired af I could give the rest of it a try I wish I could explain it scientifically to you, but I can't. The vibrational frequency of food can't be mesured by our wordly science. I wrote what I learned and what worked for me. I'm sorry I couldn't be more scientifically precise. I made my best to be the least esoteric as possible, since I know LP is a place of skepticism. What my spiritual guide tells me is that our food industry creates a lot of pain and suffering in animals before killing them. This energy accumulates in their body and holds down the vibrational frequency of the food. Plants, on the other hand, specially those fresh from nature, have a very high vibrational frequency, since they hold all their vital energy almost intact. I hope you can read the rest anyway my friend. Namastê the statement you made is clearly empirically testable though. If vegetable diets make some sort of high level consciousness unlockable then you can just test that by comparing vegetable eaters to non vegetable eaters and comparing the difference.

Not really it'll be impossible to get an unbiased sample,
Not eating animals out of conviction is a placebo in itself, you have certain beliefs and all that needs to happen is you believe that it has an impact and it will
Where people that eat anything don't get the same effect since they don't care

And then you have the raw nutritional values, fibre content etc. That should be easy but shouldn't matter if it comes from organic vegetables or raped animals or even plants used for evil and satanic rituals

So I easily can see how being vegan does help with meditation etc.
Tutz just can't explain why that's where the words "frequency " "vibration" or "God" come from

That's my main question though. I don't need to reach higher conscousness to be good to other people, sure my ego sometimes show, but in the long run there is absolutely no reason to let yourself be a bad person. I'd rather have everyone do whatever they want to do without judging them as long as they dont harm anyone else. It feels like the only difference in my point of view and yours is that in yours, the ego is almost completely gone as far as i understand?

Dear friend,

You DO NEED a higher consciousness to be good, otherwise your ego will rule your life. The ego is a 'master of trickery'. It will always look for something to identify, for something to make you think you are better, or more deserving, or in any way different than others.

For instance, a lot of people in somewhat advanced levels of spiritual development are able to get rid of most of their ego identifications, but one common 'new identification' the ego loves is with the idea of being 'a enlightened person'. This will make the person start thinking they are special, because he/she was able to 'wake up' earlier than others, which again is a form of unconsciousness. What I'm trying to say is that even a very 'spiritual person' can fall for the traps of the ego. That's why it is important to meditate everyday, to be reminded everyday about our unity to the whole, to be humbled everyday by our wordly ignorance.

Namastê

On November 30 2018 08:59 Spitfiree wrote: not really, seems like he would exactly not post something like you just posted cause he s of full control of his mind, he would make the same point using some valid arguments which would push you towards changing your mind there s really zero reasons to express yourself with negative emotions ever if you're in control all the time (not judging you, i react like that on many occasions)

Good analysis.
What happens is that I'm describing a reality that is in opposition to the mental positions of a lot of fellow LPers. As long as I'm ignored or not taken seriously, those fellow LPers will feel their mental positions are intact (so their ego is preserved). But the minute someone gives me a positive recognition, their ego kicks in, as if they've been diminished. So they feel the need to come here and make sure they express their view in superiority to mine, as to strengthen their ego and restore their own self-validation. This is nothing I didn't expect, and it's ok. There is nothing I can do about it. I'm talking only to those who want to listen.

also I dont believe most of the things he s saying, but I have respect of the way he s handling himself in a topic which would receive a lot of hate. e.g. reincarnation doesn't make much sense as what would be the "architecture" of the process , we constantly have new people being born, yet animals go extinct... does the animal energy group up and reincarnate into a person or what,and thats the very basic question to begin with.... obv, the answer will probably be that our rational mind cant comprehend it, however i think everyone should decide for themselves if they can comprehend something or not, and at least give them the opportunity to

I believe I can answer your questions, but let me ask you something first.
Do you think the answer to those questions is going to be accepted by your rational mind? I guess you know it wont. Your brain won't just accept the answer, cause you know the answer can't be tested in a lab or scientifically replicated. It is as if the rational mind is saying: "Before I believe in your reincarnation story, how would this this and that work?". What I say is: please don't believe me. I do not want you to believe me, I want you to experience it.

You then could say: "How could I experience it? I'm sure I'm not seeing any ghosts like yourself". My answer is: if my words make absolute no sense to you, if for not even a second what I say resonates with a deeper part of you, then you should just ignore me, and I truly mean this. Every soul incarnated in our world is going through it's own journey, and awakening can't be forced. You must want to understand, you must want to seek, and if you do, if you seek, you shall find. Even if it takes a long time. But it must always come from inside yourself. Your intuition is the channel through which your higher self comunicates with your 3D brain. The more you meditate, the more you practice love, the higher your vibration is going to be, the more precise will be your intuition, the more your spiritual guides will be able to give you hints of the truth.

I hope this clarifies a bit.

Namastê

First I would like to say I'm not a healer of any kind, I don't have (or didn't develop yet) those habilities, and I don't know much about this form of esoteric knowledge yet, I'm still learning. Thank you for your question and I'm sorry to hear about your condition. I think I can say a few things about your case: -Fear is indeed the 'feeling' that hinders spiritual development the most; and hidden fears are even worse I believe, since you don't know how to face them -We must all come to the realization that there is nothing to be feared in a world where we are creation itself (I think you know that) -I believe your hidden fear can be something from a past life that you probably need to solve within yourself in this life in order to take the next steps in your journey; have you thought about doing Quantum Hypnosis? I have heard great things about it from people that went through somewhat similar experiences, but I don't know enough about it myself in order to recommend who to look for, but I'm sure you can do a little research about it, or even ask your mentor about it. I hope you find your answers my friend Namastê

Thank you very much for the response. Funny you mention past life hypnotherapy for uncovering fears, it was what a spiritual hypnotherapist talked to me about a few months ago, although I never followed up with a session. I will keep on seeking support from those who know more than I do.

As for your sharing spirituality with liquidpoker, it is probably the most controversial place for it, but I am super glad you did. I was a skeptic, I believed in NOTHING, until 2011 came along and I actually "experienced" spirit, or "god" during a healing session. I think it is incredibly hard to reach people at the experience level through words alone. Although, that is seemingly what Eckhart Tolle did to you.

I mostly keep my spiritual experiences to myself, because they really aren't anything dramatic from an outsider's point of view. Nobody cares to hear about it, from the first few people I explained the experiences to I quickly realized that my words would not even make them the slightest more interested in spiritual matters. But that does not make me better than them. Heck, being married and having a lifelong commitment to a partner is a pretty deep spiritual journey if you ask me. So I have great respect for people, and acknowledge their spiritual journeys of this lifetime as being wonderful, unique, and challenging, even if they don't or choose to not see it that way.

is tutz the same guy who wrote all those posts like 7-8 years ago about the lizard race and the world ending, etc?

(didnt read this thread at all, just thought i recognized OP name from back then)

On November 30 2018 13:04 Smuft wrote: is tutz the same guy who wrote all those posts like 7-8 years ago about the lizard race and the world ending, etc? (didnt read this thread at all, just thought i recognized OP name from back then)

Yes, that was me back in my days of hard trolling. I hope you don't judge me for that past

On November 30 2018 14:32 tutz wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2018 13:04 Smuft wrote: is tutz the same guy who wrote all those posts like 7-8 years ago about the lizard race and the world ending, etc? (didnt read this thread at all, just thought i recognized OP name from back then) Yes, that was me back in my days of hard trolling. I hope you don't judge me for that past

Seems like you raised your trolling game to a whole new level.

Also why should higher consciousness care about being judged by others ?

Seems like you raised your trolling game to a whole new level.

Sure I understand why you would think that. All I can say is that I'm not the same person I was 8 years ago

Also why should higher consciousness care about being judged by others ?

First I must say that the concept of judgement only exists in our 3D world of duality: good and bad, right or wrong, beautiful or ugly, etc. Higher consciouness operates in non-duality.

I certainly don't care about being judged here, which doesn't mean to say I don't care about being judged at all. For example, I care if my family judges me in a negative way, because I love them very much. If I had achieved an even higher level of consciousness, I would not care, but I'm not there yet.

I'm not saying you must achieve a level of enlightment where you will not care about anything in this world; that is a level of enlightment extremely rare to occur in our world, but you should certainly aim in that direction.

Finally, when I say: "I hope you don't judge me", I'm not saying 'please don't judge me or I will feel diminished', I'm saying: 'I hope you don't fall in the trap of your own ego and judge me'.

Namastê

agree with baal all of you new age spiritual guys are retarded.

if you guys notice basically you guys are quabbling amongst yourselves
guy 1: im right
guy 2: no your a newb im right
guy 3: no your both newbs im right

basically the reason for this is because the only person that ends up doing well in a cult is the cult leader. you guys all have a biological drive that compels you to assert yourself over others within this retard cult structure. perhaps this isnt true for 100% of people and its not to say you can benefit from it but i think for those invested enough in cults this becomes a prevalent structure.

ill also go further and say that cult structure is everywhere these days not just limited to spiritual stuff but also with fitness, diet, philosophy, yoga etc.

#woke

"Im more conscious and I dont have an ego and im gonna save all the unconscious people from their egos."

Sorry but the only word that comes up for that is superego.

Trying to be a humane, loveing saviour by basically floating above everyone with the story of being awake, saying namaste with a smirk.
Innocent, but its purely arrogance and it stinks, probably cuz it reminds of such entitlement and within the concept and toygame of consciousness so unconscious, on steroids.

The irony.

Thanks for letting me blow off some steam on newageness! #unwoke gratefulness
+ Show Spoiler +

On November 30 2018 18:57 longple wrote: #woke "Im more conscious and I dont have an ego and im gonna save all the unconscious people from their egos." Sorry but the only word that comes up for that is superego. Trying to be a humane, loveing saviour by basically floating above everyone with the story of being awake, saying namaste with a smirk. Innocent, but its purely arrogance and it stinks, probably cuz it reminds of such entitlement and within the concept and toygame of consciousness so unconscious, on steroids. The irony. Thanks for letting me blow off some steam on newageness! #unwoke gratefulness + Show Spoiler +

I'm not sure exactly what I said that made you come to that conclusion, but it certainly does not reflect my internal state.
I'm not trying to be humane, I am human, just like everyone here. And as I said, even the most 'spiritual person' carries an ego and must watch it all the time.

Lastly, pointing out unconscioussness in others is not a problem, as long as that doesn't change your inner state towards unconscioussness itself. i.e. feeling superior to the said unconscious person.

May I ask when did I give you the impression that I feel superior? It is important to me that I recognize where I'm acting unconsciously.

Namastê (there is no smirk here, as I truly bow to the divine in you)

_______________________________________________

Edit: Let me add something.

I've learned in the past months that often when I try to teach spiritual knowledge to people that didn't ask for it (as I'm trying here in LP), I would get negative reactions, often accusing me of thinking I'm better than the other person, when I'm truly trying to help with heartfelt sincerity.

So I guess this is what is happening here. If it were the case that you asked for my help because you recognize I have some knowledge that you don't, you would be open to listen and learn, instead of trying to find flaws in my ways.

I'm very certain I have flaws and my spiritual journey has just began, but I'm also certain about my sincerity here. So all I can ask is that you point out where you think I failed as a teacher, so I can improve the next time.

Hard to stay frustrated when u reply so nicely I must admit.

My reaction seems to indicate I wasnt out to communicate at all, so I wont, this seems to just be my reaction to 99% of spirituality. Especially when appeared as spiritual people. In other words, just blowing off some steam.

Detilted, thank you for your service!

On November 30 2018 19:40 longple wrote: Hard to stay frustrated when u reply so nicely I must admit. My reaction seems to indicate I wasnt out to communicate at all, so I wont, this seems to just be my reaction to 99% of spirituality. Especially when appeared as spiritual people. In other words, just blowing off some steam. Detilted, thank you for your service!

Thank you for your sincerity!

On November 30 2018 18:57 longple wrote: #woke "Im more conscious and I dont have an ego and im gonna save all the unconscious people from their egos." Sorry but the only word that comes up for that is superego. Trying to be a humane, loveing saviour by basically floating above everyone with the story of being awake, saying namaste with a smirk. Innocent, but its purely arrogance and it stinks, probably cuz it reminds of such entitlement and within the concept and toygame of consciousness so unconscious, on steroids. The irony. Thanks for letting me blow off some steam on newageness! #unwoke gratefulness + Show Spoiler +

If you pretend that your shadow doesn't exist and that you are perfect then it will ultimately have the last laugh you will give off bad vibes imo passive aggressive this is what most enlightened people do because at least subconsciously they feel superior. I'm not really into the eastern mysticism which has been pushed on the west because they need a new religion because it really is the start of a new age (aquarian) this was predicted by some guy I can't remember when he noticed chakra systems in his british passport he committed suicide and was predicting shit about london olympics that didnt happen. So basically the new age is todays religion you will probably find a lot of good stuff but there is probably a trap to it all as well.
At the moment I am much more drawn to western mysticism/philosophy but it's not very popular atm usually the masses are wrong so looking for answers from echart tolle which I just see everyone and their nan talking about, I never gave him a chance but it sends red flags to me.
Oh actually what will be the new age is a blend of eastern and western I guess. Just be careful some of it is probably intentionally misleading like 'A course in Miracles' Which I find very suspect because it was channelled by a woman who later went insane and was right around mk ultra etc. Probably the best way to study this type of stuff is to look at where it has come from and just go back to where they are drawing their inspiration from.
One more thing is the guru worship I refuse to worship some other human being its just weird and people become stuck and they don't think for themselves anymore. I actually think these gurus are drawing energy from their followers but that is not confirmed lol.

On November 30 2018 11:12 Big_Rob_isback wrote: Show nested quote + First I would like to say I'm not a healer of any kind, I don't have (or didn't develop yet) those habilities, and I don't know much about this form of esoteric knowledge yet, I'm still learning. Thank you for your question and I'm sorry to hear about your condition. I think I can say a few things about your case: -Fear is indeed the 'feeling' that hinders spiritual development the most; and hidden fears are even worse I believe, since you don't know how to face them -We must all come to the realization that there is nothing to be feared in a world where we are creation itself (I think you know that) -I believe your hidden fear can be something from a past life that you probably need to solve within yourself in this life in order to take the next steps in your journey; have you thought about doing Quantum Hypnosis? I have heard great things about it from people that went through somewhat similar experiences, but I don't know enough about it myself in order to recommend who to look for, but I'm sure you can do a little research about it, or even ask your mentor about it. I hope you find your answers my friend Namastê Thank you very much for the response. Funny you mention past life hypnotherapy for uncovering fears, it was what a spiritual hypnotherapist talked to me about a few months ago, although I never followed up with a session. I will keep on seeking support from those who know more than I do. As for your sharing spirituality with liquidpoker, it is probably the most controversial place for it, but I am super glad you did. I was a skeptic, I believed in NOTHING, until 2011 came along and I actually "experienced" spirit, or "god" during a healing session. I think it is incredibly hard to reach people at the experience level through words alone. Although, that is seemingly what Eckhart Tolle did to you. I mostly keep my spiritual experiences to myself, because they really aren't anything dramatic from an outsider's point of view. Nobody cares to hear about it, from the first few people I explained the experiences to I quickly realized that my words would not even make them the slightest more interested in spiritual matters. But that does not make me better than them. Heck, being married and having a lifelong commitment to a partner is a pretty deep spiritual journey if you ask me. So I have great respect for people, and acknowledge their spiritual journeys of this lifetime as being wonderful, unique, and challenging, even if they don't or choose to not see it that way.

Dear friend, thank you for sharing your story. I took more time to answer you because I wanted to be more thoughtful in my answer.

It's always so interesting to hear other people's experiences with the spiritual realm. I'm always fascinated to hear the many different paths that lead people to start seeking. It's indeed important that we respect other people's own journeys, and that's also our own challenge: to watch unconsciousness in loved ones without reacting ourselves. If we can barely take care of our own egos, how could we think we could handle other's? We must follow our own journey, and teach by being the example. That's the best way. About your marriage, it can be a great vehicle for enlightment, but also for unconsciouness. Watch it.

A lot of light to you my friend. Namastê

That was a weird reaction longple and let me explain. There are two cases in which people that pretend/have more knowledge than you and try to educate you on it:

A) They are passive aggressive and act with superiority - in this case your response actually empowers them, even though you try to point them out as a fraud, their goal was reached, you spent efforts yet still lost the fight
B) They actually have that knowledge and you come off as the asshole

My point is that in both cases your reaction ends up being bad for you. Either way what tutz is saying isn't something new, nor mindblowing somehow, it is certainly things that many other people have tried and many of those have had their life changed towards good, it's not like he's trying to shove it down anyone's throat either, ultimately at the end of the day you either make a decision to use him as a source of information and gain from it, or just simply ignore him. Any other effort is pointlessly spent.

There's plenty of cases of people implementing breathing techniques that allowed them to do almost miraculous (actually miraculous in some cases) things. As far as I understand breathing techniques are a big part of the eastern religion type "rituals" (cant think of a better word) like meditation. Just go ahead and check the video about "Iceman" and how doctors have been absolutely mindblown. He uses breathing techniques that literally empower him tremendously physically. He decided to let go of rational explanations and go down the spiritual path after his wife suicided and ended up at a place that benefitted his life in all kinds of ways. He's also a guy that strongly believes rationality and science and tries to connect both worlds.

I think spiritual type people have a different brain than me. i'm not sure if there are any conditions where i could adopt such viewpoints.

On December 01 2018 01:25 Stroggoz wrote: I think spiritual type people have a different brain than me. i'm not sure if there are any conditions where i could adopt such viewpoints.

in the same way that squirrels have different brains than us, I agree

On November 30 2018 08:59 Spitfiree wrote: not really, seems like he would exactly not post something like you just posted cause he s of full control of his mind, he would make the same point using some valid arguments which would push you towards changing your mind there s really zero reasons to express yourself with negative emotions ever if you're in control all the time (not judging you, i react like that on many occasions)

Dont make the mistake of confusing demeanor with wisdom, he is typing anti-intellectual nonse, spirituality for the housewife and he should be called out on this bullshit, Deepak Chopra isn't "in control of his mind" he is a charlatan, and he often gets called out as an idiot by physicists who probably to you are "not in control of their minds" lol.

we constantly have new people being born, yet animals go extinct... does the animal energy group up and reincarnate into a person or what,and thats the very basic question to begin with....

Yeah new people souls are harvested by white extinguishing white rinos and cheetas.... Brilliant analysis Dr. control of my mind

On November 30 2018 23:04 Spitfiree wrote: There's plenty of cases of people implementing breathing techniques that allowed them to do almost miraculous (actually miraculous in some cases) things..

please go on... what miracles?

On December 01 2018 07:00 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2018 23:04 Spitfiree wrote: There's plenty of cases of people implementing breathing techniques that allowed them to do almost miraculous (actually miraculous in some cases) things.. please go on... what miracles?

Gave a pretty good example with Iceman. I don't use "a miracle" as something god-given (considering im an atheist that would be quite of an oxymoron), but rather something that modern science has considered impossible, yet someone achieved it.

I would like to take this blog one step further. I will present here a few evidences that could convince some of you that what I'm saying might be true. I don't expect to convice the most skepticals, but the ones that might be on the fence and would like to see evidence of what I'm saying.

I'll call 'evidence' anything that can suggest that what I'm saying is real. Those aren't going to be 'scientific evidences' or 'undisputed facts', but rather information that can strongly indicate the existentece of the spiritual world and that it's possible to communicate with spirits.

In the end, you will make up your own mind. I'm not forcing anything on anyone, and I have nothing to gain by doing this. I'm not asking for money, or that you follow me on any social media, or trying to make new friends. I'm here as a true messenger trying to present glympses of the truth. It is my mission, as it is yours too, when you finally realize it.

-------------------------------------------

I would like to present to you a man named Chico Xavier (1910-2002). He is best known as the greatest medium (someone that can communicate with the dead and other spirits) of all times, having written over 400 psycographed books (that is, a book that was written through the hand of a medium but by a person who already died). This man sold over 20 million copies, but never earned one cent from it. He lived and died in poverty, and all the money and book rights he earned went straight to charity. To this days his books are sold and all the copyrights of those books go to dozens of charities in Brazil. Chico Xavier was the embodiment of a saint, a true example of service to humanity.

Here I'll present a mini-documentary (15 minutes long) about who he was. After watching this documentary, I predict a few questions may arise. First, you probably noticed that Chico Xavier was devoted to Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, Christ's image and teachings have been tarnished by our modern civilization, so I understand that you think this is a bunch of crap just because he talks about Jesus so much. At least that's what I would think a few years ago. Let me present to you a different view. Christ was a great master, just like Buddha and others that lived. Each true master teaches the same thing, but using different pointers. Jesus focused his teachings on unconditional love; Buddha on ego denial and meditation. And let me say that only a small part of the Bible really represents the true teachings of Christ, the rest was just made up by greedy men looking to control society. Chico Xavier was raised in a very Christian country (Brazil), so being devoted to Christ was also his way of reaching the most amount of people he could. He was what we call an Evangelical Spiritist.

There were a few cases where Chico's letters (from dead people) were even accepted in court as evidence that led to the acquital of people being prosecuted for murder. Also, he was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize, but didn't win. His story is truly amazing. Take a look if you will.

Here is Chico's Wikipedia page, with a lot more information about him:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chico_Xavier

Here is the mini-documentary (3 parts of 5 minutes each):


Here is Chico talking about suicide and after-life:


Here is a trailler of a movie that was made about him:


Here is the movie itself, if you have any interest (I think this is also on Netflix):


All of those videos have English subtitles.
There's a lot more about him on youtube, but the vast majority is in Portuguese with no substitles, so I can't post here.

I can go further and post more 'evidences', but this is the strongest I have: the life of Chico Xavier. If this doesn't touch you in any way, nothing more that I can post here will.

I also found on my phone the video I recorded and sent to my family and closest friends the day before my spiritual guide manifested where I show how sweaty and dumbfounded I am because of what was happening. Could that be considered evidence that my story is true? I guess I'll upload to youtube soon post here and let you guys decide if you believe me or not.

Namastê my friends!

___________________________________________________

Edit: here it is; this was recorded on the 13th of August, this year.

if you use youtube autotranslate you can understand a little bit of what I'm saying

.

"A close friend of mine, Vitor Moura Visoni, managed to get one of Xavier’s biggest and closest associates, Waldo Vieira, to clearly state that Xavier promoted hoaxes. Vieira should know because he was there.

Workers from the Spiritist Center went to the line [of followers] to get details from the deceased. Or they used stories told by relatives in the letters where they asked for a meeting. The messages from Chico had this information,” Vieira revealed. That would explain his “psychographed” letters with details that “only the deceased had known.” More than cold reading, this was just plain hoaxing. There were other hoaxes, according to Vieira."

https://www.csicop.org/specialarticle...ritualism_in_brazil_alive_and_kicking (read more about the hoaxes here, the Sister Josefa hoax is particularly fun)

On December 01 2018 22:50 Loco wrote: "A close friend of mine, Vitor Moura Visoni, managed to get one of Xavier’s biggest and closest associates, Waldo Vieira, to clearly state that Xavier promoted hoaxes. Vieira should know because he was there. Workers from the Spiritist Center went to the line [of followers] to get details from the deceased. Or they used stories told by relatives in the letters where they asked for a meeting. The messages from Chico had this information,” Vieira revealed. That would explain his “psychographed” letters with details that “only the deceased had known.” More than cold reading, this was just plain hoaxing. There were other hoaxes, according to Vieira." https://www.csicop.org/specialarticle...ritualism_in_brazil_alive_and_kicking (read more about the hoaxes here, the Sister Josefa hoax is particularly fun)

Hey Loco,

Let me tell you, without judgement, that your source is wrong. And I can prove it. There was a rumor that Waldo Vieira said that, but he already confirmed that he never said such a thing. Here is an interview with Waldo Vieira, after Chico Xavier's death.

I'm sorry it's in portuguese, maybe the autotranslate can help.
If you want you can just skip to the end of the video (3:50) where Waldo says: 'he was 100%' (in portuguese)


Besides, Waldo Vieira was a medium himself and had a big following. He and Chico were close friends and later in life they separated, but were always somewhat close.

Finally, what could Chico Xavier gain with that? He died poor, in a single tiny bed, simple house, donated everything. He never married. All his life was dedicated to doing good. What kind of a charlatan is that?

Also, this:

Investigating the fit and accuracy of alleged mediumistic writing: a case study of Chico Xavier's letters
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25103071

On December 01 2018 23:14 tutz wrote: Also, this: Investigating the fit and accuracy of alleged mediumistic writing: a case study of Chico Xavier's letters https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25103071

no opinion at all on the contents of this thread but re: that paper

Method
After a systematic search for Xavier’s psychographed letters, we selected one set of 13 letters allegedly written by a same spiritual author (J.P.). The letters were initially screened for the identification of items of information that were objectively verifiable. The accuracy of the information conveyed by these items and the estimated likelihood of the Xavier’s access to the information via ordinary means were rated using Fit and Leak scales based on documents and interviews carried out with the sister and friends of J.P.

to base an experiment on answers from a group of people with innate biases for answers that can't otherwise be verified is well...not great methodology.

On December 01 2018 23:14 tutz wrote: Show nested quote + On December 01 2018 22:50 Loco wrote: "A close friend of mine, Vitor Moura Visoni, managed to get one of Xavier’s biggest and closest associates, Waldo Vieira, to clearly state that Xavier promoted hoaxes. Vieira should know because he was there. Workers from the Spiritist Center went to the line [of followers] to get details from the deceased. Or they used stories told by relatives in the letters where they asked for a meeting. The messages from Chico had this information,” Vieira revealed. That would explain his “psychographed” letters with details that “only the deceased had known.” More than cold reading, this was just plain hoaxing. There were other hoaxes, according to Vieira." https://www.csicop.org/specialarticle...ritualism_in_brazil_alive_and_kicking (read more about the hoaxes here, the Sister Josefa hoax is particularly fun) Hey Loco, Let me tell you, without judgement, that your source is wrong. And I can prove it. There was a rumor that Waldo Vieira said that, but he already confirmed that he never said such a thing. Here is an interview with Waldo Vieira, after Chico Xavier's death. I'm sorry it's in portuguese, maybe the autotranslate can help. If you want you can just skip to the end of the video (3:50) where Waldo says: 'he was 100%' (in portuguese) Besides, Waldo Vieira was a medium himself and had a big following. He and Chico were close friends and later in life they separated, but were always somewhat close. Finally, what could Chico Xavier gain with that? He died poor, in a single tiny bed, simple house, donated everything. He never married. All his life was dedicated to doing good. What kind of a charlatan is that? Also, this: Investigating the fit and accuracy of alleged mediumistic writing: a case study of Chico Xavier's letters https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25103071

Why would you make me write down some shitty auto-generated portuguese youtube captions, and then use autotranslate which is a mess to begin with even starting with accurate text, so that I'd know what he's saying, when you could just easily tell us, in quotes, what it is that he says? Plus, you're the one trying to convince people here. I couldn't care less about this topic.

But even if he indeed does say it isn't true, it's not exactly evidence that he didn't say it, or that there weren't hoaxes happening. And if you have read the entire article I posted, then you'd know that Vieira discredits himself, by claiming that Diogo (and Chico) were authentic mediums despite their hoaxes. Using his "mediumship" and his friendship with Chico is meaningless. Or was that also made up? Let me play the same game as you, then, what use is there in the CSI writer, or this Visoni character, lying about those words? It's also convenient that you'd ignore commenting on the rest of the article, with this one person playing the role of a materialized spirit, and Chico claiming that this was a legitimate materialization, despite the fact that the person who did the hoax admitted it was a hoax in the end. Why don't you tell us what you think about that?

As for your puzzlement with the kind of life that he led . . . it's pretty simple. Self-deceived people can do good things. They don't have to be out to hurt people. In fact, this is how the article I posted ends, quoting Chico's words: "The truth that hurts is worse than the lie that comforts." So, what he had to gain, well, let's use a little bit of our reasoning skills. Not only has he become extremely famous, -- which alone some people want so much they kill others and even themselves for it -- but he has comforted people, through deceiving them, which gratified him. Almost certainly he deceived himself in the process, too.

Thing is, you didn't start this topic to speak about the usefulness of certain fictions (or potential fictions), you started by saying you could convince us that there is enough evidence to at least take these supernatural claims seriously, because you believe they are true. Appealing to our emotions and moving the goalpost isn't going to help you here. If you're going to say you are going to do your best to post evidence, just do that.

To add to PoorUser's excellent catch, here's some things about the journal that this study was posted in that are worthy of note, as pointed out by this reddit user (<--click to have access to the relevant hyperlinks in the post that I'm not putting here):

I'm not convinced that EXPLORE: The Journal of Science and Healing is a scientific journal. Oh, don't get me wrong: it looks like a science journal, on the surface. And it's published by a company that publishes scientific journals (although they have published fake journals in the past, too). But I tried googling it a bit, and ended up finding their editorial board. This is the website of their executive director: as you can plainly see, he is a medical doctor, but one focused on "alternative medicine", and with no evident experience in actual, reputable scientific research whatsoever. This is one of the co-editors-in-chief. He has published in The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine (and in EXPLORE), but his only actual scientific publication (according to a Google Scholar search for his name) appears to be a lone article he was second author of, published in Academic Medicine, about lessons US medical educators could learn from how Cuba teaches CAM. This is the other co-editor-in-chief. He has a PhD in psychology, so he actually has some actual scientific training, but none of his expertise appears to be even remotely related to the topics he claims to be a research scientist regarding, and while he has occasionally published research in actual journals, it seems to have consisted of papers like, "Reexamining psychokinesis: Comment on Bösch, Steinkamp, and Boller (2006)", and "Evidence for consciousness-related anomalies in random physical systems", and is completely overwhelmed by his list of publications from crank journals (like the European Journal of Parapsychology, Journal of Scientific Exploration, Subtle Energies & Energy Medicine Journal Archives, and The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine). Their associate editors appear to be a bit more scientifically qualified, for the most part, if still wholesale cranks (advocating nonsense like reiki, homeopathy, and reflexology), but only 1 of the 3 actually seems to have much experience publishing scientific research (with another who has experience editing actual scientific journals). Then, their editorial director is a journalist with no scientific expertise whatsoever. Furthermore, if the editorial staff weren't suspect enough, let's consider some articles published in EXPLORE: "Manifesto for a Post-Materialist Science" (co-authors include EXPLORE's executive director, and Rupert Sheldrake) "Finding a Common Language: Resolving the Town and Gown Tension in Moving Toward Evidence-Informed Practice" (written by their co-editor-in-chief who uses and advocates for acupuncture and medical hypnosis) "Conceptualizing Mind, Body, Spirit Interconnections Through, and Beyond, Spiritual Healing Practices" ("Design and Setting: A total of 12 spiritual healers from Aotearoa/New Zealand participated in a semi-structured interview about their healing practices." "Guided Imagery for Postoperative Pain, Energy Healing for Quality of Life, Probiotics for Acute Diarrhea in Children, Acupuncture for Postoperative Nausea and Vomiting, and Animal-Assisted Therapy for Mental Disorders" These are just from the same issue that published the study OP linked to. Going back just one issue before that, we get: "Reiki Brief Report: Using Reiki to Reduce Stress Levels in a Nine-Year-Old Child" "Treating the Root Cause: Acupuncture for the Treatment of Migraine, Menopausal Vasomotor Symptoms, and Chronic Insomnia" "Acupuncture for Acute Stroke, Peppermint Oil for Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Yoga for Depression and Anxiety, Hypnotherapy for Smoking Cessation, and Lime Juice for Sickle Cell Anemia" The issue before that, we get: "Biofield-based Therapies: A Systematic Review of Physiological Effects on Practitioners During Healing" "Moxibustion and Breech Presentation, Breathing Exercises and Asthma, Coenzyme Q10 and Heart Failure, Acupuncture and Chronic Low Back Pain, and Cinnamon and Diabetes" In fact, of the roughly a dozen issues I glanced through, I couldn't find a single one that didn't have complete and obvious BS. It seems that a significant of the papers published appear to be real research, and that boggles my mind. Somehow, it seems, actual scientists are unwittingly submitting manuscripts to this "journal", evidently unaware of the kind of garbage they publish alongside it. From what I can tell, EXPLORE appears to be a pseudoscientific journal which tries to market itself as a scientific journal, and which is sometimes mistaken for one.

And here's another post looking at the scientific rigor behind the "Fit and Leak" scales. (Hint: there's none)

On December 02 2018 04:17 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On December 01 2018 23:14 tutz wrote:   On December 01 2018 22:50 Loco wrote: "A close friend of mine, Vitor Moura Visoni, managed to get one of Xavier’s biggest and closest associates, Waldo Vieira, to clearly state that Xavier promoted hoaxes. Vieira should know because he was there. Workers from the Spiritist Center went to the line [of followers] to get details from the deceased. Or they used stories told by relatives in the letters where they asked for a meeting. The messages from Chico had this information,” Vieira revealed. That would explain his “psychographed” letters with details that “only the deceased had known.” More than cold reading, this was just plain hoaxing. There were other hoaxes, according to Vieira." https://www.csicop.org/specialarticle...ritualism_in_brazil_alive_and_kicking (read more about the hoaxes here, the Sister Josefa hoax is particularly fun) Hey Loco, Let me tell you, without judgement, that your source is wrong. And I can prove it. There was a rumor that Waldo Vieira said that, but he already confirmed that he never said such a thing. Here is an interview with Waldo Vieira, after Chico Xavier's death. I'm sorry it's in portuguese, maybe the autotranslate can help. If you want you can just skip to the end of the video (3:50) where Waldo says: 'he was 100%' (in portuguese) Besides, Waldo Vieira was a medium himself and had a big following. He and Chico were close friends and later in life they separated, but were always somewhat close. Finally, what could Chico Xavier gain with that? He died poor, in a single tiny bed, simple house, donated everything. He never married. All his life was dedicated to doing good. What kind of a charlatan is that? Also, this: Investigating the fit and accuracy of alleged mediumistic writing: a case study of Chico Xavier's letters https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25103071 Why would you make me write down some shitty auto-generated portuguese youtube captions, and then use autotranslate which is a mess to begin with even starting with accurate text, so that I'd know what he's saying, when you could just easily tell us, in quotes, what it is that he says? Plus, you're the one trying to convince people here. I couldn't care less about this topic. But even if he indeed does say it isn't true, it's not exactly evidence that he didn't say it, or that there weren't hoaxes happening. And if you have read the entire article I posted, then you'd know that Vieira discredits himself, by claiming that Diogo (and Chico) were authentic mediums despite their hoaxes. Using his "mediumship" and his friendship with Chico is meaningless. Or was that also made up? Let me play the same game as you, then, what use is there in the CSI writer, or this Visoni character, lying about those words? It's also convenient that you'd ignore commenting on the rest of the article, with this one person playing the role of a materialized spirit, and Chico claiming that this was a legitimate materialization, despite the fact that the person who did the hoax admitted it was a hoax in the end. Why don't you tell us what you think about that? As for your puzzlement with the kind of life that he led . . . it's pretty simple. Self-deceived people can do good things. They don't have to be out to hurt people. In fact, this is how the article I posted ends, quoting Chico's words: "The truth that hurts is worse than the lie that comforts." So, what he had to gain, well, let's use a little bit of our reasoning skills. Not only has he become extremely famous, -- which alone some people want so much they kill others and even themselves for it -- but he has comforted people, through deceiving them, which gratified him. Almost certainly he deceived himself in the process, too. Thing is, you didn't start this topic to speak about the usefulness of certain fictions (or potential fictions), you started by saying you could convince us that there is enough evidence to at least take these supernatural claims seriously, because you believe they are true. Appealing to our emotions and moving the goalpost isn't going to help you here. If you're going to say you are going to do your best to post evidence, just do that.

Yeah, PoorUser is right. The methodology of that study is not very good. It was the only thing in English I could find.

Loco, I think it is not very wise of me to enter this 'battle' with you. The amount of evidences in favour of Chico's work is pretty overwhelming in my view. There will always be people that wont believe him, no matter what. And it's ok. Chico has never been 'debunked' or 'caught as a fraud'. His entire life (more than 70 years writting books and letters) people tried to find holes in his letters and books, but never did to the extent that they could prove he was a fraud.

Again, he wrote more than 400 books (about a huge diversity of topics, while he had no formal education, only studied until the 5th grade) and THOUSANDS of letters from the dead with a lot of details that only those dead people could know. His letters were accepted in court, by judges and jury, in several occasions. And still, never debunked.

I did not waste any time reading the article you posted, because I know the information there can't be trusted already. It's just a very biased piece. But let me tell you. Before I was a believer, I would have people come up to me and say: 'What about Chico? Was he a fraud too to you?'. Back then, I searched the internet for anything I could present to those people proving he was a fraud, but I never did. I could indeed find things similar to the things you are presenting, but those are very very weak, specially if you compare them to the amount of evidence in favour of Chico. Believers will hold on the things in favour of him, non-believers on the things against him. I'm writting all of this for the ones who are on the fence and would like to hear more. I'm not out to convince everybody, let alone the most skepticals.

I don't know if you watched the documentary, and I wont ask you to. There was this interesting case that is shown in the documentary where 2 reportes where out to prove he was a fraud. They pretended they were American reporters that wanted to interview Chico. Their idea was: during the interview, if he can't tell we are fake American reporters, that's proof he is a fraud. After the interview, they were convinced he was a fraud, because he didn't uncover their true identity. Chico had given then 2 books as a gift at the end of the interview. When they got home, they oppened the books, and right in front of them it was written: "To my dear friends, XXX and YYY, from Emmanuel" (X and Y = their real names; Emmanuel = Chico's spiritual guide)". Those reporters tell the story in this mini-documentary, it was a huge story back then, because those two reporters were very respected at the time, so a lot of people started believing is Chico because of this.

Chico was famous, but he didn't appear much on TV or on any media. In his 70 years of work as a medium (he lived until 92), he was very closed and modest. He liked to use all his time to write and help people, to fulfill his mission, as he would put it. Sure you can believe that he chose to decieve himself and that all he wanted was fame. This doesn't seem likely to me. I guess the only way he could even look legit to you would be if he even recused any fame? How would one with such great powers not even become famous in the first place? He had to become famous in order to be able to reach the most amount of people possible. Anyway, I don't expect to convince you my friend. But I understand your skepticism, I totally do. Let's just kindly agree to disagree, if that's ok with you. I don't think you are anything less for not believing, we just have two different ways of looking to the world. Besides, even if Chico didn't exist, I would still believe what I believe, because I experienced it myself (and continue to experience it). So why even bother to discuss with a madman like myself? I think you should just let me be a crazy fool lol (this was a joke please don't take as if I'm making fun of you). I only started reading about Chico's work more seriously after I experienced spirit myself, then everything about him start to 'click'.

Namastê

Edit:

"The truth that hurts is worse than the lie that comforts."

Chico indeed said this, but not to mean he would write lies in order to comfort people, this was not it. People that want to discredit him often use this phrase without understanding what he meant. This phrase is just an universal thruth for us that see the world through the lens of unconditional love. I don't wanna be cheeky and appeal to emotions, but I guess I will have to a little bit.

When we say something that hurts others, even if it is true, we are creating negativity. That is not the way to live, but our society can't understand that in our current state of collective consciousness. We should never, ever hurt each other. Lying is obviously not correct, but if you lie in order to not make the other feel good, that's 'better' than saying something true that could hurt them. You can say now: "so if I cheat on my girlfriend I better lie about it so not to hurt her?". My answer is: NO. Again this would be a situation where there was a negative action (cheating) done in the first place. What Chico simply meant is: be kind. If you think someone is not beautiful and they ask you if they are, you should not hurt them by telling them they are ugly; it's better to lie and say they are pretty, because you recognize that the duality of beauty is an illusion. So yes, they are beautiful, because they are God, they are perfect, just as we all are.

Well isn't there a well documented scientific study from a Japanese guy, who was testing the intention/thought/environment effect on the structure of the water, isn't that a good start to ease in skeptical mind into some cool stuff



or there is this cool down to earth Indian girl who has her "3rd eye" opened since birth and she perceives subtler things, you can totally tell that to her its not a big deal, its normal to her and she sees some cool stuff that others don't see



I mean it doesn't require too much intuition and common sense to see that these things are real and there is no deception involved here

btw consider that if by any chance this Japanese guy is correct, what effect does skepticism have on your cells?:D

On December 02 2018 14:06 napalm wrote: Well isn't there a well documented scientific study from a Japanese guy, who was testing the intention/thought/environment effect on the structure of the water, isn't that a good start to ease in skeptical mind into some cool stuff

Again, this is old stuff I came to be aware of some 10 years ago in the New Age raw vegan movement. No, it's not well documented science; it has no scientific credibility whatsoever. A quick wikipedia search would let you know this. Cliffs can be found here. Of course, when you have received zero scientific training yourself, chances are you'll just believe whatever is more pleasant to believe.

btw consider that if by any chance this Japanese guy is correct, what effect does skepticism have on your cells?:D

I can answer that. It has none. Thoughts don't directly affect cells. What directly affects cells, in the chain of command, and outside of external physical damage, is whether they get the substrates they require for their maintenance, which is dependent on our behavior, not our thoughts. Naturally, our thoughts can influence our behavior (and there's a feedback loop there, where the behavior retroacts on the kind of thoughts one will later have). This is because we've evolved the ability to adapt to our environment based on conscious awareness (learning). But most of our behavior, and consequently our thoughts, are the result of unconscious processes we are not aware of, which serve the 'purpose' (finality) of survival only (survival of the organism, its psychic structure, or the structure of the social group the organism belongs to).

More precisely, what will affect the cell is if the environment and the action of the organism on this environment are conducive to "well being", meaning, the organism is rarely restricted in his ability to gratify oneself, to meet his needs (whether those are fundamental or learned through socioculture) then that is all that is required for allostasis to occur, which is the process by which the organism is continually brought into balance and the structure of cells are properly maintained and normal senescence and regeneration occurs to keep the system regulated despite environmental unstability.

To use an example, if someone doubts that they are alive, as is seen in an illness like Cotard delusion, and they'd cease to eat (because dead people don't eat), we wouldn't say it was their skepticism that caused them to become starved, or even to become delusional; we'd say it's their behavior -- maladaptive behavior, which is reflected in the irrational belief system -- that led to the cells being starved of the substrates they need. Our thoughts are not influencing the structure of molecules or cells, they serve the purpose of learning and adapting to an environment at times, but most of the time they are mere interpretations of our behavior, and they come after the fact -- after an action has already been chosen. This is well known in neuroscience. See:

Naturally, our thoughts can influence our behavior

I'm pretty sure our thoughts influence our behaviour all the time without a stop, whether you can sense it or not is a different question. And actually I wouldn't say our behaviour, but our physicality. It's still good to make a distinction though, cause you can completely ignore the thoughts and override them by physically forcing yourself to do specific things which would make you happier or more confident e.g. power poses, forcing yourself to smile etc. All of that has been scientifically proven. Naturally most people are not aware of that thus cannot really use it.

On December 02 2018 16:22 Spitfiree wrote: Show nested quote + Naturally, our thoughts can influence our behavior I'm pretty sure our thoughts influence our behaviour all the time without a stop, whether you can sense it or not is a different question. And actually I wouldn't say our behaviour, but our physicality. It's still good to make a distinction though, cause you can completely ignore the thoughts and override them by physically forcing yourself to do specific things which would make you happier or more confident e.g. power poses, forcing yourself to smile etc. All of that has been scientifically proven. Naturally most people are not aware of that thus cannot really use it.

If you think that our thoughts play a large and continuous role in influencing our behavior, then you should challenge your view and watch the entire Gifford lecture I posted (though the most relevant part is part 3, which I posted). The experiments with the split brain patients should blow your mind. Our thoughts have little direct influence or control over our behavior. They only appear to do so when we don't understand the functioning of our nervous system and its evolution, and we rely on our intuitions or "common sense" about them instead.

Our thoughts influence everything around us and within us. Every little thing. All things that exist, even people not close to us.

Scientific evidence for what I'm saying? I have none, and won't care to look for it. My spiritual guide tought me, and that's it.



It is what it is, but you don't need to believe me, and you also don't need to hate me.

I'm just the messenger.

Namastê

Edit:

Just to make it clear, I have great respect for science and scientists
It would be fascinating if science could prove this, but we are not quite there yet

Interview with Chico Xavier, english subtitles:



Great stuff

Watch every word that comes out of this man's mouth. Pure truth. Listen.

On December 02 2018 16:44 tutz wrote: Our thoughts influence everything around us and within us. Every little thing. All things that exist, even people not close to us.

And yet here you are, telling us to listen to the wisdom of Osho, who, in the vein of Freud and Gurdjieff, tells us that we are survival machines, driven by unconscious impulses. So, which is it? Thoughts directly affect all levels of reality, or thoughts are for the most part just surface foam, and they serve to interpret our experiences, not rule them?

It would be fascinating if science could prove this, but we are not quite there yet

"So there are machines that talk, machines that calculate and machines that have memory; machines have started doing everything that the mind of man can do. When the yogis, the tantrikas and the Upanishads said for the first time that the mind of man is just like a machine, people all over the world did not understand it. Now science has devised machines that do similar work to that of the mind, and there is no problem understanding it." - Osho

Edit:

I also remember your other idol Tolle saying/writing that something like 95%+ of our thoughts are just repetitive and useless. His idea is to be more present and think less, because thinking is mostly useless, the organism can take care of itself without it.

Both of Osho and Tolle's teachings are not refined or rigorous, they make mistakes and they are just generally too vague to be of interest, but from this alone they are still more aligned with what I'm saying here than with what you are saying.

And yet here you are, telling us to listen to the wisdom of Osho, who, in the vein of Freud and Gurdjieff, tells us that we are survival machines, driven by unconscious impulses.

I never read that book, but to me that phrase seems true. We are indeed controlled by our ego (ego = thoughts), until we finally realize it (become consciouss, enlightment). End of thinking uncontrollably, end of suffering.

So, which is it? Thoughts directly affect all levels of reality, or thoughts are for the most part just surface foam, and they serve to interpret our experiences, not rule them?

Thoughts affect us in many ways. First, they shape our behaviour and way we see the world. Second, they affect the energy around us and what we attract. Third, they affect the energy that others receive from us. Fourth, they affect the way our body interprets reality. These are the most important ones. What perceives our reallity is the silent watcher, the consciouness behind our thoughts, our god essence. Then the thoughts come and create a meaning bound to this 3D world, limited. Practicing presence means not letting your thoughts rush in to interpret reality before you become aware of yourself first. This is the essence of what Eckhart Tolle and Osho try to teach. Presence. Space between thoughts.

"So there are machines that talk, machines that calculate and machines that have memory; machines have started doing everything that the mind of man can do. When the yogis, the tantrikas and the Upanishads said for the first time that the mind of man is just like a machine, people all over the world did not understand it. Now science has devised machines that do similar work to that of the mind, and there is no problem understanding it." - Osho

Good quote. What is the problem with it? I don't see any contradiction.

I also remember your other idol Tolle saying/writing that something like 95%+ of our thoughts are just repetitive and useless. His idea is to be more present and think less, because thinking is mostly useless, the organism can take care of itself without it. Both of Osho and Tolle's teachings are not refined or rigorous, they make mistakes and they are just generally too vague to be of interest, but from this alone they are still more aligned with what I'm saying here than with what you are saying.

Well, all I can say is then don't listen to me and to them, right? I think it has always been pretty clear from the beginning that our world views are not compatible. And that's ok.

Namastê dear one

We are indeed controlled by our ego (ego = thoughts), until we finally realize it (become consciouss, enlightment). End of thinking uncontrollably, end of suffering.

Thoughts =/= ego. They are not even at the same level of organization. Thoughts deal with the domain of language, and they can be about neutral and factual observations that have nothing to do with egoic motivations. The ego is a psychic structure that serves an organism that is focused on self-gratification. Humans, endowed with an ego, for self-preservation (and domination) purposes, can and do use language to that end, but it doesn't mean that all thoughts serve that purpose.

Becoming conscious of the ego doesn't end the ego. It's like saying that because you know something is a visual illusion, your brain will shift and you will no longer see the illusion again. It's more sensible to say that the more conscious we are, the more the ego is transformed (or integrated, with views/goals that are more adaptive). New patterns of behavior are made possible once new information is organized. It's like how understanding gravity has made it possible to do new things, like go to the moon. Discovering the law of universal gravitation didn't free us from gravitation.

In meditation, what happens is that we work to suspend the ego, over and over again, to favor exploration and discovery, to better understand its mechanism/nature phenomenologically. We don't annihilate it. The idea that we, "our true self" can and should annihilate it, is just that, an idea, which many people have faith in, but which unfortunately leads them astray. It is not the solution to a "new and more harmonious world". It's a comforting and hyper-simplistic worldview.

Good quote. What is the problem with it? I don't see any contradiction.

It's not that difficult to see. You should have a problem with someone who says that man is a machine, and replaceable by machines, if you think that thoughts affect reality in a substantive (and substantial) way, because machines don't need to think at all in order to do what it is they are programmed to do. Does a thermostat need to think in order to "attract" its servomechanism (a human being) in order to change the temperature of the room? Does it need to think in order to work to maintain that room at a fixed temperature? What is the process of causality whereby our thoughts make us "attract things"? Do you have any example of thoughts directly influencing matter and energy? I can think of some ways in which thought is applied to do so, because in a complex system like the brain there is self-organization leading to downward causality, but here there is no direct effect from thoughts, and all that's needed is to include the notion of information, like with Maxwell's demon; there is no need for anything supernatural.

Loco, I can see you want desperately to play this game of logical reasoning with me. I’m sorry my friend, but this is not a discussion about concepts created by the logical mind. This is a discussion about spiritual teachings. Words only go so far as to try to point the direction to a deeper dimension within yourself. Before I try to answer you a little bit more, I’m going to ask a question and I would you to answer them to yourself, not to me here. Or you can also just ignore the question, your call. Here it goes:

Where does the impulse to prove I’m right comes from?

Try to feel the answer, instead of thinking. Focus on your breath, don’t rush. Or your can ignore this, it’s ok.

Thoughts =/= ego. They are not even at the same level of organization. Thoughts deal with the domain of language, and they can be about neutral and factual observations that have nothing to do with egoic motivations. The ego is a psychic structure that serves an organism that is focused on self-gratification. Humans, endowed with an ego, for self-preservation and domination purposes, can use language to that end, it does so very often, but it doesn't mean that all thoughts serve that purpose.

No, I’m sorry. This is one spiritual realization that one must have: thoughts = ego.
There is no ego without thought.
I’ll not try to give mental concepts to what I’m saying. It’s supposed to be experienced. Words are limited.

Becoming conscious of the ego doesn't end the ego

It does.

It's not that difficult to see. You should have a problem with someone who says that man is a machine, and replaceable by machines, if you think that thoughts affect reality in a substantive (and substantial) way, because machines don't need to think at all in order to do what it is they are programmed to do.

It’s undeniable that our brain does functions that a machine can replicate, that’s where the mind is replaceable by machines. I see no problem with that idea. The machine is not a living organism and has no soul, so the processes of the machine have no energy effect in the sense of positive/negative.

What type of cause and effect allows this process whereby our "thoughts make us attract things"?

Positive thoughts will attract positive events and people, and the opposite is true. Very simple.
________________________________________

Loco, with all due respect. I’m spending way too much energy in this with you, and it has not been very pleasant. I can feel all the negative energy. I'm sure you are not happy spending all this time here. I’m pretty sure I’m not going to convince you, and you are not going to convince me. So can I ask that we politely end this discussion? I say this with peace in my heart. We are just in a different path right now. Just let it go, ok?

Namastê my friend

On December 02 2018 16:36 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On December 02 2018 16:22 Spitfiree wrote:   Naturally, our thoughts can influence our behavior I'm pretty sure our thoughts influence our behaviour all the time without a stop, whether you can sense it or not is a different question. And actually I wouldn't say our behaviour, but our physicality. It's still good to make a distinction though, cause you can completely ignore the thoughts and override them by physically forcing yourself to do specific things which would make you happier or more confident e.g. power poses, forcing yourself to smile etc. All of that has been scientifically proven. Naturally most people are not aware of that thus cannot really use it. If you think that our thoughts play a large and continuous role in influencing our behavior, then you should challenge your view and watch the entire Gifford lecture I posted

Would be glad to, can't seem to find them in this thread though and I'm guessing the thing which i googled wasnt the thing you're referring to as it was about natural theology .

My idea is easily validated by the priming effect though

edit: pm me with it or post it here please

On December 02 2018 15:35 Loco wrote: This is well known in neuroscience. See:

ty for shareing loco, good stuff! ended up watching a bunch of the lectures

How could you not find it Spitfiree? It's right above my current post now that it's been quoted... and yes, the Gifford lectures are branded as "natural theology" (or at least they used to be) but many of the topics they are interested in (like in this case, free will) are topics that are open to empirical investigation. Notable agnostic or atheistic scientists and philosophers have often participated. In this case, Gazzaniga is a leading neuroscientist specializing in split brain/lateralization research. His work clearly shows the way we are essentially programmed to be self-deceived about our agency and the causal efficacy of thoughts.

My idea is easily validated by the priming effect though

I don't know what you mean/how it is validated by this effect, you'll have to elaborate on this.

On December 02 2018 20:48 tutz wrote: Loco, I can see you want desperately to play this game of logical reasoning with me. I’m sorry my friend, but this is not a discussion about concepts created by the logical mind. This is a discussion about spiritual teachings. Words only go so far as to try to point the direction to a deeper dimension within yourself. Before I try to answer you a little bit more, I’m going to ask a question and I would you to answer them to yourself, not to me here. Or you can also just ignore the question, your call. Here it goes: Where does the impulse to prove I’m right comes from? Try to feel the answer, instead of thinking. Focus on your breath, don’t rush. Or your can ignore this, it’s ok. Show nested quote + Thoughts =/= ego. They are not even at the same level of organization. Thoughts deal with the domain of language, and they can be about neutral and factual observations that have nothing to do with egoic motivations. The ego is a psychic structure that serves an organism that is focused on self-gratification. Humans, endowed with an ego, for self-preservation and domination purposes, can use language to that end, it does so very often, but it doesn't mean that all thoughts serve that purpose. No, I’m sorry. This is one spiritual realization that one must have: thoughts = ego. There is no ego without thought. I’ll not try to give mental concepts to what I’m saying. It’s supposed to be experienced. Words are limited.   Becoming conscious of the ego doesn't end the ego It does.   It's not that difficult to see. You should have a problem with someone who says that man is a machine, and replaceable by machines, if you think that thoughts affect reality in a substantive (and substantial) way, because machines don't need to think at all in order to do what it is they are programmed to do. It’s undeniable that our brain does functions that a machine can replicate, that’s where the mind is replaceable by machines. I see no problem with that idea. The machine is not a living organism and has no soul, so the processes of the machine have no energy effect in the sense of positive/negative.   What type of cause and effect allows this process whereby our "thoughts make us attract things"? Positive thoughts will attract positive events and people, and the opposite is true. Very simple. ________________________________________ Loco, with all due respect. I’m spending way too much energy in this with you, and it has not been very pleasant. I can feel all the negative energy. I'm sure you are not happy spending all this time here. I’m pretty sure I’m not going to convince you, and you are not going to convince me. So can I ask that we politely end this discussion? I say this with peace in my heart. We are just in a different path right now. Just let it go, ok? Namastê my friend

I'm just having a discussion here, why are you getting defensive and calling me desperate? If you feel challenged that doesn't mean that I'm "playing a game". Those are your feelings and it's up to you to deal with them, what you shouldn't do is make an appeal to motive instead of focusing on the subject that you claim to be on this earth to investigate and teach about. I am also interested in knowledge and wisdom. That's what I've devoted my life to. I'm not here to "win" anything. I rarely post on this website anymore and I am merely taking the opportunity you presented to me to talk about things I am interested in.

Notice how I didn't set out to influence anybody or disprove any of the things that you said in your OP post or further down; in fact I said nothing (other than put Kirlian photography on your radar) until you said you wanted to convince some of the fence sitters with what you called evidence. You essentially baited me into a discussion I didn't want to be having by posting cherry-picked information about some local spiritist you admire, and now you speak as if I am the one desperate to seek out conflict to please my ego.

You also can't see the way you are acting condescendingly, telling me to just "focus," "don't rush" and "breathe" and how "things are okay", trying to paint this picture of me being out of control, obsessed and dominated by my thinking. This is especially awkward considering that I have been meditating for one to two hours every day for the last 3 months, and I just completed 9 days of near total isolation in a vipassana retreat where I meditated for 9-10 hours every day formally, along with meditation in day to day activities. This is a video I took of my room, in which I spent over 95% of my time in, without access to the internet, books, or any form of entertainment. But please, do keep reminding me that I should focus and breathe!

Positive thoughts will attract positive events and people, and the opposite is true. Very simple.

If it's so simple, then there should be a lot of empirical evidence for it. I mean, this is a falsifiable claim, is it not? Where can I find some of the science that's been done on this attraction mechanism that you won't explain? Is it the same that's in "What the Bleep Do We Know"?

You know tutz, in my days as a Tolle reader, before I got to be very suspicious of New Ageism (and now simply disinterested in it), I read a book that's called "The Four Toltec Agreements". You might already know about it, or would probably have known about it. The Four Agreements are:

Be impeccable with your word.
Don't take anything personally.
Don't make assumptions.
Always do your best.

The one that stuck with me the most was to avoid making assumptions. At the time that I heard about it, it was quite freeing to slowly change this pattern of behavior. Assumptions often place a great burden on us. It's something I've sometimes failed at since then, but on the whole I have been quite good with it. It's easy to fail at it on an internet forum though, because the medium is asynchronous, and in order to save time and energy, we tend to want to anticipate our interlocutor's response, which is evidently best done by making assumptions about who they are and what they meant in their post. Unfortunately, it seems you struggle with this one quite a bit yourself. You might find the book of some value to you. Apparently they have also released another version with five agreements instead, though you might not like the one that they added: "be skeptical, but learn to listen."

im picturing this happening soon

On December 02 2018 16:44 tutz wrote: Scientific evidence for what I'm saying? I have none, and won't care to look for it. My spiritual guide tought me, and that's it.

On December 01 2018 10:52 Spitfiree wrote: Show nested quote + On December 01 2018 07:00 Baalim wrote:   On November 30 2018 23:04 Spitfiree wrote: There's plenty of cases of people implementing breathing techniques that allowed them to do almost miraculous (actually miraculous in some cases) things.. please go on... what miracles? Gave a pretty good example with Iceman. I don't use "a miracle" as something god-given (considering im an atheist that would be quite of an oxymoron), but rather something that modern science has considered impossible, yet someone achieved it.

a guy who holds some world records about tolerating cold is a miracle? shit the guiness book must be your bible then lol

On December 02 2018 14:06 napalm wrote: Well isn't there a well documented scientific study from a Japanese guy, who was testing the intention/thought/environment effect on the structure of the water, isn't that a good start to ease in skeptical mind into some cool stuff or there is this cool down to earth Indian girl who has her "3rd eye" opened since birth and she perceives subtler things, you can totally tell that to her its not a big deal, its normal to her and she sees some cool stuff that others don't see I mean it doesn't require too much intuition and common sense to see that these things are real and there is no deception involved here btw consider that if by any chance this Japanese guy is correct, what effect does skepticism have on your cells?:D

As loco already said.. the water "experiment" has been proved to be absolute bullshit and the author has never been able to replicate the resulst with scientific rigor....


For a rational person to accept the notion that the arrengement of atoms can be influenced by feelings would require massive amounts of scienetific research, the fact that you accept these things as true without even bothering to google search for the debunking speaks volumes of how rational you really are

On December 03 2018 06:52 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On December 01 2018 10:52 Spitfiree wrote:   On December 01 2018 07:00 Baalim wrote:   On November 30 2018 23:04 Spitfiree wrote: There's plenty of cases of people implementing breathing techniques that allowed them to do almost miraculous (actually miraculous in some cases) things.. please go on... what miracles? Gave a pretty good example with Iceman. I don't use "a miracle" as something god-given (considering im an atheist that would be quite of an oxymoron), but rather something that modern science has considered impossible, yet someone achieved it. a guy who holds some world records about tolerating cold is a miracle? shit the guiness book must be your bible then lol

The guy has learned himself and others to do it, and its not about what he does but how he does it, which is essentially learn to pump adrenaline in his body on demand, which has been thought to be absolutely impossible. He has some control of his auto-immune system, do you realize how crazy that is?

On December 03 2018 00:32 Loco wrote: How could you not find it Spitfiree? It's right above my current post now that it's been quoted... and yes, the Gifford lectures are branded as "natural theology" (or at least they used to be) but many of the topics they are interested in (like in this case, free will) are topics that are open to empirical investigation. Notable agnostic or atheistic scientists and philosophers have often participated. In this case, Gazzaniga is a leading neuroscientist specializing in split brain/lateralization research. His work clearly shows the way we are essentially programmed to be self-deceived about our agency and the causal efficacy of thoughts. Show nested quote + My idea is easily validated by the priming effect though I don't know what you mean/how it is validated by this effect, you'll have to elaborate on this.

Legitimately don't see any videos posted by you in this thread, anyway I will check the 3rd lecture ( saw first 30 minutes last night pre-bed but dont see how their argument will be able to fit into the behaviour of people considering they are talking about environments that dont have the same structure/architecture but we ll see)

Anyway, the definition of Priming taken from wikipedia is the following:

Priming is a technique whereby exposure to one stimulus influences a response to a subsequent stimulus, without conscious guidance or intention

The thing is, we are constantly experiencing stimulus from one source or another, thus generating a response which is somewhat guided by that stimulus. There're plenty of cases done which I'm sure you've done - e.g. group of people split into two, one being given a lecture on death, other on happiness, death group walks slower to the elevator on their way home. That might not directly effect our thoughts, but our subconsciousness which will still effect our thoughts, just in ways which we wont realize unless we really dive in.

Thoughts =/= ego. They are not even at the same level of organization. Thoughts deal with the domain of language, and they can be about neutral and factual observations that have nothing to do with egoic motivations. The ego is a psychic structure that serves an organism that is focused on self-gratification. Humans, endowed with an ego, for self-preservation (and domination) purposes, can and do use language to that end, but it doesn't mean that all thoughts serve that purpose.

I also agree with this, however I think you've forgotten something just because you're well read and aware of yourself on a much deeper level than the average individual as you can make a clear distinction between what thoughts your ego is evoking, why it is doing them and etc. I think that's tutz's point as well. Be able to reach that level of consciousness, it's easy to define and describe, much harder to actually implement and use.

Tutz, are you sure you were ready for the negative energy from your blog post?

I always remember the saying: Don't give advice to anyone unless they ask for it.

I hope we chat again and can stay in touch somehow? I will send you my email through a PM. Sounds like you are devoted to developing yourself quite rapidly. I was pretty devoted for a few years, but lost my drive to be a better more conscious person a few years ago. Becoming a better person is probably the hardest thing to do.

On December 03 2018 08:53 Spitfiree wrote: Show nested quote + On December 03 2018 06:52 Baalim wrote:   On December 01 2018 10:52 Spitfiree wrote:   On December 01 2018 07:00 Baalim wrote:   On November 30 2018 23:04 Spitfiree wrote: There's plenty of cases of people implementing breathing techniques that allowed them to do almost miraculous (actually miraculous in some cases) things.. please go on... what miracles? Gave a pretty good example with Iceman. I don't use "a miracle" as something god-given (considering im an atheist that would be quite of an oxymoron), but rather something that modern science has considered impossible, yet someone achieved it. a guy who holds some world records about tolerating cold is a miracle? shit the guiness book must be your bible then lol The guy has learned himself and others to do it, and its not about what he does but how he does it, which is essentially learn to pump adrenaline in his body on demand, which has been thought to be absolutely impossible. He has some control of his auto-immune system, do you realize how crazy that is?   On December 03 2018 00:32 Loco wrote: How could you not find it Spitfiree? It's right above my current post now that it's been quoted... and yes, the Gifford lectures are branded as "natural theology" (or at least they used to be) but many of the topics they are interested in (like in this case, free will) are topics that are open to empirical investigation. Notable agnostic or atheistic scientists and philosophers have often participated. In this case, Gazzaniga is a leading neuroscientist specializing in split brain/lateralization research. His work clearly shows the way we are essentially programmed to be self-deceived about our agency and the causal efficacy of thoughts. Show nested quote + My idea is easily validated by the priming effect though I don't know what you mean/how it is validated by this effect, you'll have to elaborate on this. Legitimately don't see any videos posted by you in this thread, anyway I will check the 3rd lecture ( saw first 30 minutes last night pre-bed but dont see how their argument will be able to fit into the behaviour of people considering they are talking about environments that dont have the same structure/architecture but we ll see) Anyway, the definition of Priming taken from wikipedia is the following:   Priming is a technique whereby exposure to one stimulus influences a response to a subsequent stimulus, without conscious guidance or intention The thing is, we are constantly experiencing stimulus from one source or another, thus generating a response which is somewhat guided by that stimulus. There're plenty of cases done which I'm sure you've done - e.g. group of people split into two, one being given a lecture on death, other on happiness, death group walks slower to the elevator on their way home. That might not directly effect our thoughts, but our subconsciousness which will still effect our thoughts, just in ways which we wont realize unless we really dive in.   Thoughts =/= ego. They are not even at the same level of organization. Thoughts deal with the domain of language, and they can be about neutral and factual observations that have nothing to do with egoic motivations. The ego is a psychic structure that serves an organism that is focused on self-gratification. Humans, endowed with an ego, for self-preservation (and domination) purposes, can and do use language to that end, but it doesn't mean that all thoughts serve that purpose. I also agree with this, however I think you've forgotten something just because you're well read and aware of yourself on a much deeper level than the average individual as you can make a clear distinction between what thoughts your ego is evoking, why it is doing them and etc. I think that's tutz's point as well. Be able to reach that level of consciousness, it's easy to define and describe, much harder to actually implement and use.

Now you're talking about stimulus influencing behavior (and therefore thoughts), that's a no brainer. My entire point is precisely that it's the stimuli that affects the behavior of the organism on its environment (and that behavior is programmed to have one finality: the maintenance of its structure), not the thoughts. The thoughts are not in the causal loop deciding on the action. Behavior (response or action on an environment following a stimulus) is unconscious and automatic, but it all happens in a unified way with the conscious mind, that makes us think that there is "someone" in control, someone who can think and understand why he does XYZ and why he will do XYZ in the future, and use thoughts to direct behavior. But this is an illusion and our thoughts are post-hoc (after the fact) interpretations/justifications of processes we are unaware of and thereby cannot control.

I don't understand what you've said in the last paragraph. What is it that I've "forgotten" exactly? You seem to be suggesting I'm the one taking the easy road by doing "descriptions" and you seem to believe it's Tutz who has done the real hard work to "understand the ego". There's nothing more facile than to claim things cannot be explained and they just have to be experienced, and assume that you've experienced them while others have not.

It's also obvious that tutz has fallen into the trap of believing that someone who is interested in empiricism and works with ideas does so at the exclusion of mindfulness or "presence". In my experience, having been part of such a community, this is what almost inevitably happens with people who follow popular new age teachers like Tolle. They quickly come to see themselves as more conscious than others, and give themselves the role of educator, with the motivation behind this the grand narrative of "shifting the consciousness on the planet". Sounds noble enough, except it's juvenile and self-serving; it's also what's really extremely easy since they are following a very basic script, and it fails miserably, because they're not above their egos. It's a sign of lack of spiritual development to give unsolicited advice and offer help in the form of spiritual guidance to others. It says "I need to feel good about myself", "I need to be in a position of influence".

On December 03 2018 09:10 Big_Rob_isback wrote: Tutz, are you sure you were ready for the negative energy from your blog post? I always remember the saying: Don't give advice to anyone unless they ask for it. I hope we chat again and can stay in touch somehow? I will send you my email through a PM. Sounds like you are devoted to developing yourself quite rapidly. I was pretty devoted for a few years, but lost my drive to be a better more conscious person a few years ago. Becoming a better person is probably the hardest thing to do.

Tutz, are you sure you were ready for the negative energy from your blog post?

Ready yeah, but I'm certainly not used to it anymore... Since a few months ago I decided to create total harmony in my life, which means staying away from any form of negativity, but sometimes it's inevitable

I always remember the saying: Don't give advice to anyone unless they ask for it.

Very true! But I'm glad I created this blog post. I know some seeds were planted, and will eventually blossom

I hope we chat again and can stay in touch somehow? I will send you my email through a PM. Sounds like you are devoted to developing yourself quite rapidly. I was pretty devoted for a few years, but lost my drive to be a better more conscious person a few years ago. Becoming a better person is probably the hardest thing to do

Of course man, we can stay in touch. Send me an e-mail whenever you want: arthuraml@gmail.com. You can also find me on whatsapp (the only social media I use): +5511945639495. I will gladly help you with what I can. It's important to me now that I learn how to teach and how to best convey spiritual knowledge to others. I'm very devoted to my spiritual path indeed. Other than doing my daily job, all I do is acquire more knowledge about our universe. And eventually I smoke some weed to relax too (as I'm about to do, lol). Thank you for your words.

Namastê my friend

.

On December 03 2018 21:44 tutz wrote: Ready yeah, but I'm certainly not used to it anymore... Since a few months ago I decided to create total harmony in my life, which means staying away from any form of negativity, but sometimes it's inevitable

So cliffnotes of Tutz belief system:

I dont have any evidence for my beliefs

I dont care that I dont because my spiritual guide taught me, thats all I need.

Also I decided to stay away from opinions that contradict my beliefs.


-------

yep, what could go wrong?

Seems to be the way for every "spiritual" teacher I have come across so far. I don't even know what spiritual means anymore.

To be fair, that quote has nothing to do with spirituality; it sounds right out of a positive thinking seminar. It's only in the new age movement that the two can be conflated.

If tutz wants total harmony, he better escape for another universe, because this one only exists through the antagonistic and complementary generative forces of chaos and order, there is not one without the other, and there is no escaping it at any level of organization. Total harmony, just like total chaos, is death. Nothing can live at either extremes. If we were always at peace and fully satiated, we'd have no more goals, no reason to protect our biological structure. If spiritual evolution is the goal, as he previously stated that it was, then disorder is necessary. A regulated system is one where nothing new ever happens, so no evolution is possible.

Everything this man says in this video is truth.

If you have questions, I can answer them.

Namastê.

@Loco I get it now, I'm the one that had it wrong since I had my justifications lead to a false understanding. Not really surprised that I fell for that thought trap I guess.


What is odd to me in the general conversations is that all of you seem to believe that he has manifested his spiritual guide though. At least thats what my impression from the conversation has left me with. If such a thing does exist, then the whole counterargument and logic behind it kind of falls short as it would be a "black swan" as Taleb d say. Anyway that would be a pointless conversation to continue as there could literally be no common ground between both sides.

What interests me more is if tutz is an antinatalist due to the previous statement he's made that we're all basically the same supreme being that is trying to get back together as a whole after each piece has gone through its spiritual awakening. That would imply that we should mostly disregard any progress in any area whatsoever and only focus on spiritual development while keeping ourselves alive, but there would also be no incentive to procreate (I know Loco that you have plenty of logical reasons to give on that topic but lets disregard them). Which would also beg the question of why are living beings, not just humans able to procreate, to begin with, why not just be immortal until ascension. Even if there is a spiritual reason for that somehow, wouldn't it be immoral for us to procreate knowing that our main goal is to ascend, meaning that the being that is about to be born is bound to suffer, as it has failed in the previous life? If we procreate, then it means that we are immoral thus should deserve to be reincarnated again? (kind of funny how Loco's beliefs align with this logic as well though :D)

P.S. Sorry if I sound rude somehow tutz, I'm actually interested in your point of view. I don't think we're going to figure out the purpose of life in this thread either way. Whatever the purpose of life is, I dont see how "the grand plan" would lack logic, even if the universe is all randomness and/or a generated environment like the Matrix

On December 04 2018 22:06 Spitfiree wrote: @Loco I get it now, I'm the one that had it wrong since I had my justifications lead to a false understanding. Not really surprised that I fell for that thought trap I guess. What is odd to me in the general conversations is that all of you seem to believe that he has manifested his spiritual guide though. At least thats what my impression from the conversation has left me with. If such a thing does exist, then the whole counterargument and logic behind it kind of falls short as it would be a "black swan" as Taleb d say. Anyway that would be a pointless conversation to continue as there could literally be no common ground between both sides. What interests me more is if tutz is an antinatalist due to the previous statement he's made that we're all basically the same supreme being that is trying to get back together as a whole after each piece has gone through its spiritual awakening. That would imply that we should mostly disregard any progress in any area whatsoever and only focus on spiritual development while keeping ourselves alive, but there would also be no incentive to procreate (I know Loco that you have plenty of logical reasons to give on that topic but lets disregard them). Which would also beg the question of why are living beings, not just humans able to procreate, to begin with, why not just be immortal until ascension. Even if there is a spiritual reason for that somehow, wouldn't it be immoral for us to procreate knowing that our main goal is to ascend, meaning that the being that is about to be born is bound to suffer, as it has failed in the previous life? If we procreate, then it means that we are immoral thus should deserve to be reincarnated again? (kind of funny how Loco's beliefs align with this logic as well though :D) P.S. Sorry if I sound rude somehow tutz, I'm actually interested in your point of view. I don't think we're going to figure out the purpose of life in this thread either way. Whatever the purpose of life is, I dont see how "the grand plan" would lack logic, even if the universe is all randomness and/or a generated environment like the Matrix

Hey Spitfiree, thank you very much for your questions.

I will try to summarize.

Brahma wants to experience every form of life there is, every possibility. Animals and plants included, but also many other forms. Planets are a form of life, they have their own inteligence, for instance.

Our planet is made up of several dimensions, one on top of the other. We are on the DENSE dimension. All other dimensions are slighty less dense, they operate in different vibrations of energy. The spiritual dimension is a few above our dimension.

The reason we need to incarnate here in this dimension is because our soul needs to be challenged in order to learn, just like a muscle. In the spiritual world there is no hardship; it's a slighthly blissful state of being there, let's say. Here we don't know our divine essence. As we go through the cycles of reincarnation, our soul acquires more and more consciousness. The key to consciousness is universal love. Since we are everything, true consciousness means loving everything. There is only two ways to learn here in this dimension: through suffering, or through love.

As the soul learns how to love unconditionally, it increases it's vibrational frequency and can ascend to higher and higher dimensions of existence. There comes a time in the soul's journey that it does not need to incarnate in this dimension anymore, but that doesn't mean the evolution process stopped. It's a long way to the top, let's say.

I can got a lot further and with a lot more detail, but I don't know if you are interested. Let me know.

Namastê my friend

On December 04 2018 22:06 Spitfiree wrote: What is odd to me in the general conversations is that all of you seem to believe that he has manifested his spiritual guide though. At least thats what my impression from the conversation has left me with.

Uhhhhhhhhhh. It's pretty easy to know who believes that/thinks it's possible/thinks it's ridiculous or doesn't care. I would think you've been around long enough to feel like that's a pretty easy task too. Most people from this website are in the latter category. You seem to think that because people aren't challenging him on it it means they believe it. It just means they think they have better things to do than challenge someone who is making unfalsifiable claims. It's only interesting to challenge people when they make falsifiable ones, which he did, so we responded to some of those.

On December 02 2018 14:06 napalm wrote: or there is this cool down to earth Indian girl who has her "3rd eye" opened since birth and she perceives subtler things, you can totally tell that to her its not a big deal, its normal to her and she sees some cool stuff that others don't see I mean it doesn't require too much intuition and common sense to see that these things are real and there is no deception involved here

I'm late to the party, but after diving into these comments I noticed that none of the skeptics addressed this video about the girl doing stuff that shouldn't be possible.

I'm curious to hear the explanation, and I say that as a magician who has performed in many venues and knows how to fake this stuff. I'd still like to get her in a lab and control all the variables to completely prove she's not a fake, but from what I can gather online I can't explain it without bringing in some sorta high tech equipment you'd see on Agents of SHIELD.

I am honestly depressed at the idea of having to run someone through how this is a really shitty scam. It shouldn't be possible for you to think about this for more than 5 minutes and not realize it is. I mean, really think. Zoom back. See the full picture. What it is that they are accomplishing with this talent. And what is the manner in which one can get it. See if this is what you or anyone you know would do with this talent, for starters. Why don't we just begin there. Can all of you who think this is real tell me precisely what you would do if it were you?

On December 05 2018 04:42 k2o4 wrote: Show nested quote + On December 02 2018 14:06 napalm wrote: or there is this cool down to earth Indian girl who has her "3rd eye" opened since birth and she perceives subtler things, you can totally tell that to her its not a big deal, its normal to her and she sees some cool stuff that others don't see I mean it doesn't require too much intuition and common sense to see that these things are real and there is no deception involved here I'm late to the party, but after diving into these comments I noticed that none of the skeptics addressed this video about the girl doing stuff that shouldn't be possible. I'm curious to hear the explanation, and I say that as a magician who has performed in many venues and knows how to fake this stuff. I'd still like to get her in a lab and control all the variables to completely prove she's not a fake, but from what I can gather online I can't explain it without bringing in some sorta high tech equipment you'd see on Agents of SHIELD.

Hello friend. I think this is a better example of that kind of demonstration, take a look:



The second and third kid are more impressive, because their third eye is supposedly open at an angle different than that of common eyes.
But this could also be false, we can't tell for sure.

Edit:

I learned that special habilities like these are only possible if the soul already achieved a certain level of spiritual development, which means it's energy is vibrating at high frequency. If any of these kids decided to use their habilities to obtain material advantages for themselves, for example, they would lose those habilities, since this would create negative energy and shut down the third eye automatically.

The same is true for mediumship. Even if the medium is genetically blessed with amazing habilities, he would somewhat lose those habilities if he started to use them inappropriately. The opposite is also true. A 'normal person' can develop mediumship if he/she is able to increase his/her vibrational frequency through certain practices and methods.

This is a nice and rare demonstration of mediumship on live TV.

Take a look guys:

This movie depicts with about 80% accuracy how life is after death/reincarnation:

On December 05 2018 06:41 Loco wrote: I am honestly depressed at the idea of having to run someone through how this is a really shitty scam. It shouldn't be possible for you to think about this for more than 5 minutes and not realize it is. I mean, really think. Zoom back. See the full picture. What it is that they are accomplishing with this talent. And what is the manner in which one can get it. See if this is what you or anyone you know would do with this talent, for starters. Why don't we just begin there. Can all of you who think this is real tell me precisely what you would do if it were you?

I'm honestly sad to see you respond by dodging, cause you've had so many good answers! This reads like when tutz says "My spiritual teacher said so, therefore it is so". It's not an explanation based on the observable data, it's an assumption based on your biases.

What is she accomplishing with this talent? She's seeing things that her physical eyes have no possible way of seeing, indicating that there is something beyond what a purely materialist explanation of reality says is possible.

What is the manner in which one can get it? Through practice, because it's something we can all do if we develop our body properly.

What would I or someone I know do with the talent? I think that's up to each person, but also tutz is on to something in his explanation. Part of the practice necessary to develop the talent is about living with integrity, honesty, love, kindness, compassion, etc. So if you have cultivated the skill, you're likely to use it for good, not for personal gain. But that doesn't mean people couldn't develop it and use it for ill, which would likely reduce their ability as they go against the traits which were necessary to develop it. What would I do with the skill? I'd probably do similar to what she's doing, showing people what's possible in an attempt to help them open their minds to the nature of our reality, which is beyond the limited version which the religion of materialist science says is possible. But I'd do it in a lab so that skeptical minds like yours could be satisfied

And I refer to the "religion of materialist science" because the materialist perspective =/= science. Science is a method based on objectively observing phenomena, setting hypothesis to explain them, and then creating experiments to test the hypothesis. At no point is science required to be limited by a materialist perspective, but as the field of science has been taken over by people who are dogmatically believing in materialism, our modern science operates much more like a religion than true science. Just like the teachings of Jesus were twisted into the church of Christianity, science has been twisted into the church of materialism, leading people to dismiss data out of hand because their bias as a follower of the religion of materialist science blinds them from objectively analyzing the facts.

How do you fake something like this? As I said, I'm a magician, and I spent years studying, training, and creating performances so I could fake psychic powers. I've had people convinced that I could levitate, that I could read their mind, that I could teleport objects, etc. Because of those experiences, I was a member of the church of materialist science for many years, because I knew first hand that people could be convinced that they'd seen something magical, when they'd only seen a trick which was completely explainable from a materialist perspective. When I started studying psychology, I enjoyed learning even more science behind why people are wrong to think that there's anything magical in the world, and honestly Loco, the answers you've given sound almost word for word like the response I used to give when dismissing anything "magical."

So when I see what she's doing, my mind automatically jumps to multiple ways of producing the effect through purely materialistically explainable means. But I've watched footage of her performing in many different venues, for different crowds, and based on what I'm seeing she is not employing the methods a magician would use. The only way I can explain it from a materialist perspective is that she's using an advanced technology which the mainstream is unaware of, which is allowing her to either see through the blindfolds or have information transmitted to her by someone who can see (hence the reference to agents of Shield and some sorta cyborg eyes or next generation comms device). She's not wearing an ear piece, which would be the standard method of getting info to her from an outside observer so she could fake being able to see through the blindfold, and the blindfold appears to be real, not a magicians prop which appears to cover the eyes but actually allows vision.

At the end of the day, I've overall given up on trying to convince people that magical stuff is possible, cause it's not a necessary realization in order to get the benefits which come from practicing meditation and a life of integrity & compassion as promoted by buddhism, yoga, etc. Loco, I think of you as a prime example of how a skeptical mind can get great benefit from things like Vipassana and neuroscience and psychology. I find most of what you say to be spot on and very valuable to all humans who want to live a happier life. You treat people respectfully even when disagreeing with them, and your energy generally feels calm and balanced. There is so much we can do to evolve ourselves and live a happier life without having to believe in anything magical. So whether someone wants to believe in the supernatural like tutz, or stay within the material like Loco, I personally am happy to see them moving into a happier existence and helping others. I personally think both perspectives are real, and I feel like the divide between the woo woo and scientifically minded is a false one based on human limitations. That's why I loved growing up in the world of Mind and Life, where I got to see the top minds of both sides meet and find the common ground. When I've seen both sides open their minds and really listen to each other, the learning and growth which occurs is rapid and beautiful.

I'll close with this video of another practitioner who is able to do amazing stuff so we can have a more scientifically tested example to examine. Unlike the girl we were just discussing, he did get surrounded by skeptical scientists who brought instruments to test him out in an environment under their own control. There is also more explanation on what tutz brought up regarding how using these abilities for egoic purposes is generally not in alignment with the training which makes the abilities possible. While getting my psych degree my best friends on campus were my professors, and I spent a lot of time at their office hours. I remember one of them asked me "if people can really do these magical things, why don't they just come into a lab and prove it to us?" and I pointed out the ethnocentrism of her statement. For them, it's already real and no proof is necessary. A need to prove it to others is an egoic need, which is what they've trained themselves to move away from, and getting caught up in it could lead to the loss of the ability and a backslide in their development. We're the ones who should be asking kindly for them to come to our lab, not saying they're all charlatans unless they seek us out to prove us wrong.

I never thought stupidity ran this deep in this forum, holy shit.

About the video with the girl, you are presented with two choices:

A) Everything we know about science is wrong, magic is real and this girl posseses super powers

B) The host is lying and the girl has been told beforehand what the paper says (or other ways to cheat this)

And you fucking chose A... no further investigation, magic is real.


You absolute morons, there are no kinder words to describe what is going on

On December 05 2018 14:37 tutz wrote: This movie depicts with about 80% accuracy how life is after death/reincarnation:

the beacon of light who is beyond ego is letting us know that this is exactly 80% truthful lol.

On December 05 2018 20:57 Baalim wrote: I never thought stupidity ran this deep in this forum, holy shit. About the video with the girl, you are presented with two choices: A) Everything we know about science is wrong, magic is real and this girl posseses super powers B) The host is lying and the girl has been told beforehand what the paper says (or other ways to cheat this) And you fucking chose A... no further investigation, magic is real. You absolute morons, there are no kinder words to describe what is going on

You always manage to simplify things down but somehow get them wrong I've missed seeing the Baal posts!

It's actually C, which says that:

C) Limitations proposed by scientists who have bought into the materialist paradigm are wrong, but science as a method is accurate and most of the findings still make sense.

It's not about throwing out all scientific knowledge, it's about expanding upon what we already know. It's about moving forward into an era of post-materialist science, which these scientists explain better than I ever could.

True science accepts that new findings will cause old scientific facts to change. That means you have to accept that pretty much everything we believe to currently be right and true, could be proven wrong in the future, and a real scientist has to be ready to adjust as the info comes in. That's how you actually practice science. I feel like most people who go straight into dismissing anything magical in the name of science are really doing it in service to the religion of materialist science.

And I can only speak for myself, but I don't see that video and go "Everything we know about science is wrong, magic is real, no further investigation". I investigate all sides. I read the skeptics arguments, I actually deeply believed them for years and got straight A's presenting those arguments in papers during my psychology degree. I also look for further proof of magic being real (like the other video I posted which you'll probably dismiss as well, if you even take the time to watch it). But I don't just stop at watching videos online, I take the time to do my own experiments, and visit people who claim to be doing supernatural things. It wasn't until I had my own first hand experiences that I was convinced, and I don't expect any less from you. Of course, if your mind is closed, you'll never get the opportunity to see the proof, which hampers any objective investigation. And don't forget, condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance.

On December 05 2018 20:59 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On December 05 2018 14:37 tutz wrote: This movie depicts with about 80% accuracy how life is after death/reincarnation: the beacon of light who is beyond ego is letting us know that this is exactly 80% truthful lol.

About 80%:

On December 05 2018 16:56 k2o4 wrote: Show nested quote + On December 05 2018 06:41 Loco wrote: I am honestly depressed at the idea of having to run someone through how this is a really shitty scam. It shouldn't be possible for you to think about this for more than 5 minutes and not realize it is. I mean, really think. Zoom back. See the full picture. What it is that they are accomplishing with this talent. And what is the manner in which one can get it. See if this is what you or anyone you know would do with this talent, for starters. Why don't we just begin there. Can all of you who think this is real tell me precisely what you would do if it were you? I'm honestly sad to see you respond by dodging, cause you've had so many good answers! This reads like when tutz says "My spiritual teacher said so, therefore it is so". It's not an explanation based on the observable data, it's an assumption based on your biases.

I'm not dodging anything; I said let's start with what it is that they are doing with this power and the way in which they are acquiring it. Let's zoom back a little because context, i.e. what we are not shown matters, as much as what we are shown matters -- if not more. We can address all of your concerns after. What would you do with this power (and what wouldn't you do)? -- Okay, so you've answered that. You'd turn yourself into the first person who has scientifically shown that supernatural powers are real in a double blind experiment or a series of them. Are they doing that? Why do you think they aren't doing that? What about how they are acquiring this power? That matters a lot. Can you answer those questions before we go into all of your theories about materialism and magic and my supposed skeptical bias? It's important because it informs how much credibility you give to the people and the items that you are presented in this video.

We all agree that it is impossible to know with 100% certainty whether this is real or not. We have to think probabilistically. Someone like me, or like Baal, uses occam's razor here at one end of the spectrum. For some reasons some of you think on the other end of the spectrum, and you believe this is almost certainly not a scam and this power exists. Ok. If you believe that, clearly it's based on what you have seen here, giving these people the benefit of the doubt, or not doubting them at all. So for me it is more important to get into that part of it, explore why you are making different assumptions than me, which is mostly based on what you haven't seen, the information that you didn't consider before you made your choice to believe this is legitimate. And in case you don't bring it up in your response, I'll raise this point now. You have to pay $10,000 to this guru in order for him to teach you how to awaken this power. Why do you think that is, and would you personally charge money for this service? If so, how much would you charge and why?

Apologies, didn't mean to dodge, I thought I was answering your questions, but I guess I didn't give you the answers you were looking for. I think I know what you want though, so I'll give it a try

Here we go, my attempt at the skeptic perspective! /skeptic hat on

"What are they doing with this power?" Trying to fool people into believing magic is real, and that she got the power from a magical guy who can give it to you too.

"What is the way in which they acquired it?" By paying money to a guy claiming to be a guru.

"Let's zoom back a little because context matters, as much as what we are shown matters" - in other words, the context is that they're trying to make money by fooling people into paying for ceremonies which will "give them magic powers" too. Therefore every person involved is part of the scam, from the girl to the guy asking the questions to the guru who supposedly opened her third eye.

Ok, /skeptic hat off. I hope I passed.

Here's the thing that I don't understand. You talk about credibility, but I have a feeling that I'm the only one of us who has successfully convinced people of their fake psychic powers. In other words, I have experience faking this stuff, not just knowledge of how to fake it. So which person's analysis is more credible? The one who can fake psychic powers, or the one who is smart enough to figure out how to fake them?

It feels like you're saying that I haven't thought about how to fake this, that I haven't taken the time to check if those are happening, despite the fact that I emphasized I had done so in my previous post. If you start from the bias that psychic stuff is impossible, then the simplest explanation is that people are lying. In other words, you'd rather call people liars than believe what you're seeing. What is your evidence that they're lying though? You only have suspicions that the props are faked, that there's some sorta comms device, that everyone is in on it and it's all staged. But those suspicions get upgraded to "obvious answer" when you start from a base belief that magic can't be real, "because science".

She's a child surrounded by spiritually minded people, not scientists, and she's showing her abilities to the world in what feels like a convincing manner from her perspective. If I had that ability, I'd go to a lab because I live in a world of scientists and understand what they need in order to be convinced. That's why I posted the second video, in the hope to have a better example to discuss which isn't as tainted by suspicions because it's a cleaner scenario.

Finally, you answered my question with a question, which is what I consider to be a dodge. But I appreciate that you're continuing in the conversation, and hopefully I've answered your question well enough that you will now answer mine

I removed the dodging part because I had missed your response in my first read -- I was distracted with something else when I first read your post and missed it, so I apologize. You did answer but not every question.

I also edited my post just now as you replied, so I'll give you the time to read it over and edit yours if necessary, before I read and respond. Note that I wasn't asking you to guess what their intentions were, or what I think their intentions are, just what it is that they are actually doing, which we have information about.

On December 05 2018 02:11 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On December 04 2018 22:06 Spitfiree wrote: What is odd to me in the general conversations is that all of you seem to believe that he has manifested his spiritual guide though. At least thats what my impression from the conversation has left me with. Uhhhhhhhhhh. It's pretty easy to know who believes that/thinks it's possible/thinks it's ridiculous or doesn't care. I would think you've been around long enough to feel like that's a pretty easy task too. Most people from this website are in the latter category. You seem to think that because people aren't challenging him on it it means they believe it. It just means they think they have better things to do than challenge someone who is making unfalsifiable claims. It's only interesting to challenge people when they make falsifiable ones, which he did, so we responded to some of those.

It's actually not. The logic we use follows a specific paradigm. Regardless of the topic, regardless of the people that converse its bound to a specific environment and a dimension. The only issue with it, is that it actually limits itself in that paradigm because it follows factual data. What if the empirical data leading to a fact cannot explain everything though? Then we're basically blinding ourselves. I use the same paradigm, I try to stay as open minded as possible but very skeptical in the same time(if that makes sense)

Yet I've also talked with people that have experienced some weird shit that the logic we use cannot explain. There was a famous "oracle" here in Bulgaria, now before you think of me as an idiot bare with me for a bit more (I don't believe in astrology, oracles or any type of that shit). Anyway the oracle was called Baba Vanga, she lost her sight as a young kid and somehow became famous, as of how - I'm completely unaware. I've met a good amount of people that went to her and asked her a question. Some of them didn't even ask shit, they entered, she literally told them to not speak and told them something then told them to leave. I have a good friend of mine who lost his father, after his father disobeyed simple instructions of what NOT to do - it wasn't anything radical or hard she told him to do. I've spoken to a family who had their son kidnapped at a young age, just to return at the same age she told them he would ( also they didn't ask shit, they got in - she told them a number and asked them to leave, they were unaware what she meant, she reportedly didn't speak ... user-friendly so to say and always rushed saying other people need her help). She didn't gain shit from that btw, she lived in poverty from an young kid and died in such (I mean it was during the communism times, so no wonder there). As a matter of a fact people banked a good amount of money by publishing books about her and interpreting things she did/said, Russian televisions even ran some propaganda videos and shit like that.

The majority of stuff floating around on the internet about her seems quite ridiculous and misinterpreted and I would never trust anything I've read about her there, I only believed people that have met her while she was alive, which seemed quite sincere and their story was legit depressing. My friend has absolutely no reason to lie to me either.

There is no logic behind this. You cannot explain that shit, it makes zero sense. There are no facts, there's no data, no empirical observance would make sense of it, it's something that goes beyond it.

It also doesn't mean that you should go ahead and believe in oracles and prophets cause that would be quite retarded. My point is that there are things that exist, that our simple mind cannot perceive. Simply disregarding his "spiritual guide" is probably a good idea, but also an act of self-limitation. If there is a deeper knowledge we could obtain, we'd first have to be open to it, very skeptical, but still open. I'm sure every knowledge follow a specific set of rules and logic, but maybe not ones that we're used to.

On December 05 2018 23:11 Loco wrote:We all agree that it is impossible to know with 100% certainty whether this is real or not. We have to think probabilistically. Someone like me, or like Baal, uses occam's razor here at one end of the spectrum. For some reasons some of you think on the other end of the spectrum, and you believe this is almost certainly not a scam and this power exists.

You edited this in after I replied, and I want to respond to a few things.

I agree based on this 1 video, or even all the different videos I've watched of her, we cannot be 100% certain whether it's real or not. I hear you on probability and Occam's Razor, and it's what I expected from you as that's foundational thinking for the skeptically minded. And it's not bad to do, I use the same approach. But I don't start with the same bias against magical phenomena because I'm not bought into materialist science. Please check out this manifesto for post-materialist science which does a good job of explaining where I'm coming from.

Ok. If you believe that, clearly it's based on what you have seen here, giving these people the benefit of the doubt, or not doubting them at all.

No, my belief is not based on what I've seen here or just giving them the benefit of the doubt. It's based on a wide ranging investigation with an open mind. I describe that more in my reply to baal.

So for me it is more important to get into that part of it, explore why you are making different assumptions than me

Exactly, which is where I figured we'd get to and why I made my previous reply discussing "theories about materialism and magic and my supposed skeptical bias". Your assumptions come from your bias. That's my point

which is mostly based on what you haven't seen, the information that you didn't consider before you made your choice to believe this is legitimate. And in case you don't bring it up in your response, I'll raise this point now. You have to pay $10,000 to this guru in order for him to teach you how to awaken this power.

Incorrect. I have seen all the things you think should make it obviously fake, I did consider all the information. This isn't the first time I saw that video, I ran into it months ago and did a lot of investigation into where it came from and all the context.

Why do you think that is, and would you personally charge money for this service? If so, how much would you charge and why?

Because we live in a world of capitalism where you need money to do most everything, especially if you're trying to create a community. At the same time, I am not the biggest fan of that guru and ashram, because I feel the pricing is too high and there feels like a lot of showman ego going on. I've known about that community for a while, and though I'm not interested in joining it, I don't think it means this girl hasn't gained this ability.

And how much would I charge for it? My method is to operate on gift economy, where people give what they can and take what they need. I give people a suggested price and they decide what they want to give. For an hour session of yoga or meditation I suggest $75 - $125, and would do the same for this service.

On December 05 2018 23:49 k2o4 wrote: Here's the thing that I don't understand. You talk about credibility, but I have a feeling that I'm the only one of us who has successfully convinced people of their fake psychic powers. In other words, I have experience faking this stuff, not just knowledge of how to fake it. So which person's analysis is more credible? The one who can fake psychic powers, or the one who is smart enough to figure out how to fake them?

this isn't really much of an argument. performance magic is based in science and psychology, and science understands magic by being able to identify when our expectations on how the world works are violated. it would have been a lot better to say that your background in magic led you to look at different places and different times in the video for different things (or said a simpler way, it gives you a different perspective, not necessarily a better one). and while that response is fairly noncommittal, i don't think many magicians would take the position that they understand more about the "true versions" of the processes they are trying to fake, than their scientific counterparts - and even if they could make that claim specifically in terms of methodology, that should be easily communicable.

On December 05 2018 23:56 Loco wrote: I removed the dodging part because I had missed your response in my first read -- I was distracted with something else when I first read your post and missed it, so I apologize. You did answer but not every question. I also edited my post just now as you replied, so I'll give you the time to read it over and edit yours if necessary, before I read and respond. Note that I wasn't asking you to guess what their intentions were, or what I think their intentions are, just what it is that they are actually doing, which we have information about.

I appreciate that, and no worries, your attention and thoughtfulness is much appreciated even if you did get distracted, which happens to all of us!

Regarding the intentions, I think my original answer most accurately described what they were doing and not their intentions, at least to the best of my knowledge knowing everything I know about the context of this specific video, and the overall context of presenting evidence of the spiritual to the general community.

I think my second attempt at answering your questions jumps into assuming intentions, which is my bias of how skeptics think, hehe. Busted! I'm curious to hear your answers to those questions and see what your view of the situation is.

On December 06 2018 00:22 PoorUser wrote: Show nested quote + On December 05 2018 23:49 k2o4 wrote: Here's the thing that I don't understand. You talk about credibility, but I have a feeling that I'm the only one of us who has successfully convinced people of their fake psychic powers. In other words, I have experience faking this stuff, not just knowledge of how to fake it. So which person's analysis is more credible? The one who can fake psychic powers, or the one who is smart enough to figure out how to fake them? this isn't really much of an argument. performance magic is based in science and psychology, and science understands magic by being able to identify when our expectations on how the world works are violated. it would have been a lot better to say that your background in magic led you to look at different places and different times in the video for different things (or said a simpler way, it gives you a different perspective, not necessarily a better one). and while that response is fairly noncommittal, i don't think many magicians would take the position that they understand more about the "true versions" of the processes they are trying to fake, than their scientific counterparts - and even if they could make that claim specifically in terms of methodology, that should be easily communicable.

Yes indeed, performance magic is based in science and psychology. That's why I had a bit of a leg up once I started my psychology degree, because I knew about many of the phenomena they were describing. It was cool to go into more detail about exactly why the magic tricks I'd done were working, down on a biological basis.

That being said, from my experience, knowing how to create the illusion based on theory, and knowing how to create it based on practice, provides different perspectives for sure. I've trained in both perspectives, and while it doesn't mean I can automatically spot what's real and what's fake, it does give me a bit more experience and practice and knowledge to tap into than a person who just understands the science. It's like the difference between asking a surgeon or a nurse their opinion on a surgery. They've both got the knowledge, but the doctor has done the operation over and over. Generally we'd look to the doctors opinion over the nurses because of his experience, even though it is possible for the nurse to know just as much as him.

So I agree that you or Loco or any other smart scientifically trained individual could figure out the same thing as me, but it does make sense to give my opinion a bit more credibility because of my experience with the specific topic.

Finally, I certainly don't claim that being a magician gives me more knowledge about the true version, it just means I know how to create the fake version and therefore what to look for. My knowledge of what the true version looks like has come from a deep dive of research and personal experiences with the real thing. That's separate from the magician credential, though a good magician does spend at least some time looking at how the real thing happens in order to copy it and be more convincing

@Spitfiree

It's precisely because we tend to use the same types of classical logic here -- or dismiss them -- that it is easy to predict who believes in these things and who doesn't. Just an FYI, I don't only think in terms of Aristotelian logic, my thinking has moved in recent years towards paraconsistent logic (a non-classical form of logic that is contradiction/paradox-tolerant).

I've never heard about that Bulgarian mystic, but I've read a little on the occult, mostly due to the fact that there are great writers I like that were into it, and I had some strange experiences as a child myself. But all of that is something that deals with the realm of the imagination. There are no limits to the imagination, and there are complex phenomena that can occur between organisms endowed with an imagination that can strike us as magical if we are not interested in trying to explain them scientifically. Hell, even without an imagination... look at the way ants, termites, bees, etc. self-organize, it looks like magic if you don't understand emergence/information/organization.

As for "the beyond" yes, there are things that are suprarational, and there are things we cannot perceive because we didn't evolve the ability to do so, but we have zero reason to jump from these simple conclusions and believe that people can have supernatural powers. Your friend doesn't have to have reasons to lie to you, he only needs reasons for why he would deceive himself, or be deceived by someone else. And there are plenty of reasons for that, here's just one which I often bring up: the need for us to escape a grim world and our awareness of our finite existence through the imagination.

If you actually really look at the way people with these belief systems live, they are the ones who are often limiting themselves, without realizing it. They live inside simplistic systems of belief and false dichotomies. They are shutting off parts of the world, e.g. those that are judged as "negative". It's a false openness. Everything we believe is colored by our value judgments, and those value judgments are actually unconscious, and if we didn't consciously place them there, then we didn't choose our beliefs and reactions. Without empiricism, all we do is regurgitate the content of our self-serving unconscious, not realizing that this is what's happening.

Saying that we have to be open to supernatural claims is bogus. We only have to be open to the fact that they believe these things for real and open to giving them the opportunity to show evidence for them, in the right setting. That setting isn't an internet forum, or some low budget TV show. That's just a waste of time. Think about the number of people who claim to have seen ghosts or apparitions of some kind. Like poltergeists moving things around. Now think about the actual number of these people having cameras. If the actual phenomenon of a ghost coming into some ectoplasmic body exist, or a poltergeist moving things around, you'd think there would be some footage of it available, but no, instead we pay people in a multi billion dollars industry to make movies about them because we love how these myths make life interesting for a couple hours.

Apparently, Baba Vanga is said to have predicted that nuclear and chemical war would bring World War III to Europe from 2010-2014 and that the continent as we know it would cease to exist by the end of 2016. How many of these false predictions do we need before we consider that maybe she didn't have such powers? That's the thing I don't get. To me it suffices to find just one. It's like when you start a book that claims to be scientific, and the very first reference is complete bogus, taken from a fake scientific journal, or the author obviously misrepresents the study, do you give the author the benefit of the doubt, and spend 10 hours of your life reading his book? You have to make snap judgments about things you should be paying attention to or not paying attention to sometimes, and there are such cases that you'll almost never be making the wrong choice because the red flag is revealed immediately and it is so big.

Can some brave soul start this interesting conversation as a thread in the general section so it doesnt get buried in a blog post?

On December 06 2018 00:34 k2o4 wrote: Show nested quote + On December 06 2018 00:22 PoorUser wrote:   On December 05 2018 23:49 k2o4 wrote: Here's the thing that I don't understand. You talk about credibility, but I have a feeling that I'm the only one of us who has successfully convinced people of their fake psychic powers. In other words, I have experience faking this stuff, not just knowledge of how to fake it. So which person's analysis is more credible? The one who can fake psychic powers, or the one who is smart enough to figure out how to fake them? this isn't really much of an argument. performance magic is based in science and psychology, and science understands magic by being able to identify when our expectations on how the world works are violated. it would have been a lot better to say that your background in magic led you to look at different places and different times in the video for different things (or said a simpler way, it gives you a different perspective, not necessarily a better one). and while that response is fairly noncommittal, i don't think many magicians would take the position that they understand more about the "true versions" of the processes they are trying to fake, than their scientific counterparts - and even if they could make that claim specifically in terms of methodology, that should be easily communicable. That being said, from my experience, knowing how to create the illusion based on theory, and knowing how to create it based on practice, provides different perspectives for sure. I've trained in both perspectives, and while it doesn't mean I can automatically spot what's real and what's fake, it does give me a bit more experience and practice and knowledge to tap into than a person who just understands the science. It's like the difference between asking a surgeon or a nurse their opinion on a surgery. They've both got the knowledge, but the doctor has done the operation over and over. Generally we'd look to the doctors opinion over the nurses because of his experience, even though it is possible for the nurse to know just as much as him. So I agree that you or Loco or any other smart scientifically trained individual could figure out the same thing as me, but it does make sense to give my opinion a bit more credibility because of my experience with the specific topic.

i do give you credibility. i think a magicians take on magic tricks is always interesting. i think you underestimate the range and power of science as a tool when you say a person who 'just understands the science' though - and i think thats probably exemplified in your analogy. the doctor knows more than the nurse. yes at lower levels, the nurse and the doctor may be able to give the same insight and perform the same duties, but as the complexity of the task goes up, the reliability of the nurses insights/abilities will certainly falter. to my knowledge, no nursing programs train for the nurse to run lead on an intracranial surgery or a heart transplant, and i suspect there are few-to-none who would think that they can. i think, since this was an analogy and you (and similar opinioned people) are assumedly the nurse, without a proper understanding of the scope of science, it should be very hard to remark with certainty on what science can and can not explain given unfettered access to materials.

i understand that the reverse point can be made with spiritual stuff - that most skeptics can't fully understand it so we can't remark on the scope of it. that said, we then run into the whole occams razor and extraordinary claims should require extraordinary proof. as far as i know, the science side of things generally says come into a lab 24/7 and lets see what this is all about and when thats not embraced by the side of extraordinary claims, you can imagine why this debate doesn't end up engaging a lot of people.

just a last note - i think there is general feeling among people with beliefs that fall outside of science, be it religion, mediumship, spiritual anything, ESP etc. that scientists are promoting a scientific agenda. maybe that's been propagated by a few of the leading philosopher/scientist hybrids kind of being assholes. that said, everyone that i work with, and pretty much everyone i've come into contact with in the scientific community only really cares about discovering how things actually work. i know i for one dont care if any of the aforementioned things are true and if ive ended up being wrong - some of this stuff is pretty dope. there just hasn't been any compelling evidence to make me change my mind.

and finally, in case my post comes off a bit brash, while i think you meant to compare yourself to the nurse in your analogy, in no way do i mean to compare myself to the doctor in my response. i dont know most everything about pretty much everything.

that said, everyone that i work with, and pretty much everyone i've come into contact with in the scientific community only really cares about discovering how things actually work.

I have wondered since our dinner at Naked Fish probably almost exactly two years ago if you got out of poker and into the scientific community. It sounds like you have! Excellent news.

I know, I know... off topic... back to discussion.

On December 06 2018 01:03 PoorUser wrote: Show nested quote + On December 06 2018 00:34 k2o4 wrote: That being said, from my experience, knowing how to create the illusion based on theory, and knowing how to create it based on practice, provides different perspectives for sure. I've trained in both perspectives, and while it doesn't mean I can automatically spot what's real and what's fake, it does give me a bit more experience and practice and knowledge to tap into than a person who just understands the science. It's like the difference between asking a surgeon or a nurse their opinion on a surgery. They've both got the knowledge, but the doctor has done the operation over and over. Generally we'd look to the doctors opinion over the nurses because of his experience, even though it is possible for the nurse to know just as much as him. So I agree that you or Loco or any other smart scientifically trained individual could figure out the same thing as me, but it does make sense to give my opinion a bit more credibility because of my experience with the specific topic. i do give you credibility. i think a magicians take on magic tricks is always interesting. i think you underestimate the range and power of science as a tool when you say a person who 'just understands the science' though - and i think thats probably exemplified in your analogy. the doctor knows more than the nurse.

Actually I'm a big fan of science. I still use it everyday, and my time studying psychology is why I became attracted to yoga, as it takes a scientific approach to the spiritual experience. I just think that what we call magic is not yet explained by science, mainly due to a constriction on science by the materialist paradigm that so many scientists have bought into (often without even realizing it). I believe that science can and will explain everything, and the path to that explanation looks something like this manifesto for post-materialist science.

And my bad, I must not have written my nurse/doctor example very clearly, as you seem to have misunderstood it (and then assumed it was evidence of my underestimation of science's range and power). Yes the doctor knows more than the nurse, that was my point. Let me try and be clearer.

Tutz is watching a video of a surgical operation and he has two people he can question while forming a judgement about what happened in the video. One is a surgeon that performs the same surgery, the other is a nurse who assists the same surgery. Who is the more qualified expert? Of course the doctor, cause even though the nurse has all the medical theory about the operation in her head, and has stood by to watch it happen before, the nurse has never used their own hands to do it. If they're an exceptional nurse they could possibly provide the same answers as the doctor, so it is possible to only have the theory and a view and know what's going on. But we generally trust the person whose hands have actually done the operation to know the most.

Now in our situation, I'm the doctor and Loco is the nurse, because I'm the one who has actually had my hands performing the operation (magic trick), while he has all the intelligence to know what's going on but hasn't personally done it. That's not to say that he can't figure out the same thing as me, or that I'm gonna get it right every time because of my past experience. Does that make more sense?

You're right that overall it's a bad argument, because I shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. Me talking about this is a sign of my ego getting triggered, as I get bugged by people explaining away evidence by saying it's a magic trick, and then dismissing a magician who says it doesn't look like a magic trick, justifying their dismissal because they feel that their 2nd hand knowledge is better than the magicians 1st hand experience. But that's just my ego being whiny, so I apologize for dragging us both into a tangent Luckily this sidetrack did lead to you making some interesting points which I now get to reply to, so thank you for that!

i understand that the reverse point can be made with spiritual stuff - that most skeptics can't fully understand it so we can't remark on the scope of it. that said, we then run into the whole occams razor and extraordinary claims should require extraordinary proof.

I commented on the extraordinary claims stuff in reply to Loco above so I won't repost it here, but I do want to reemphasize the manifesto for post-materialist science, which helps to switch our perspective and claims suddenly become less extraordinary.

as far as i know, the science side of things generally says come into a lab 24/7 and lets see what this is all about and when thats not embraced by the side of extraordinary claims, you can imagine why this debate doesn't end up engaging a lot of people.

Really good point! This is what I often talked about with my professors too. While getting my psych degree my best friends on campus were my professors, and I spent a lot of time at their office hours. I remember one of them asked me "if people can really do these magical things, why don't they just come into a lab and prove it to us?" and I pointed out the ethnocentrism of her statement. For them, it's already real and no proof is necessary. A need to prove it to others is an egoic need, which is what they've trained themselves to move away from, and getting caught up in it could lead to the loss of the ability and a backslide in their development. We're the ones who should be asking kindly for them to come to our lab, not saying they're all charlatans unless they seek us out to prove us wrong.

So basically they're living a very different existence in many ways. Even the top meditators who we did get into the MRI machines wouldn't have gone if the Dalai Lama hadn't asked them to, as it's traditionally discouraged to be examined. But when top scientists met with the Dalai Lama at Mind and Life, he decided he trusted them and wanted to support their work. That's when we started getting amazing data out of Richie Davidson's lab which greatly shifted the debate and mainstreamed meditation, a very "woo woo" thing that scientists dismissed as having any effect for decades.

just a last note - i think there is general feeling among people with beliefs that fall outside of science, be it religion, mediumship, spiritual anything, ESP etc. that scientists are promoting a scientific agenda. maybe that's been propagated by a few of the leading philosopher/scientist hybrids kind of being assholes. that said, everyone that i work with, and pretty much everyone i've come into contact with in the scientific community only really cares about discovering how things actually work. i know i for one dont care if any of the aforementioned things are true and if ive ended up being wrong - some of this stuff is pretty dope. there just hasn't been any compelling evidence to make me change my mind.

I know what you mean, but I'm not coming from that place. Like I said above, I love science. My beef is with a belief system which has supplanted itself over science. That belief system is materialism, and it creates an implicit bias which leads many good people who just want to "discover how things actually work" down the wrong path. I've spent a lot of time with scientists, and I've had the same experience as you, that they're mostly good people who want to find the truth about what's happening and why it happens. My sincere hope is that we can free science from the binds of a belief system so it can operate as it was meant to, a method of objectively observing and collecting data, and creating theories which explain ALL of the data. Right now due to the implicit bias, so much data is just being thrown out because it doesn't fit the materialist model, and that makes me sad to see. Please check out the manifesto for post-materialist science to get a better understanding of where I'm coming from