On November 30 2018 23:04 Spitfiree wrote:
There's plenty of cases of people implementing breathing techniques that allowed them to do almost miraculous (actually miraculous in some cases) things..
On November 30 2018 23:04 Spitfiree wrote:
There's plenty of cases of people implementing breathing techniques that allowed them to do almost miraculous (actually miraculous in some cases) things..
please go on... what miracles?
Gave a pretty good example with Iceman. I don't use "a miracle" as something god-given (considering im an atheist that would be quite of an oxymoron), but rather something that modern science has considered impossible, yet someone achieved it.
I would like to take this blog one step further. I will present here a few evidences that could convince some of you that what I'm saying might be true. I don't expect to convice the most skepticals, but the ones that might be on the fence and would like to see evidence of what I'm saying.
I'll call 'evidence' anything that can suggest that what I'm saying is real. Those aren't going to be 'scientific evidences' or 'undisputed facts', but rather information that can strongly indicate the existentece of the spiritual world and that it's possible to communicate with spirits.
In the end, you will make up your own mind. I'm not forcing anything on anyone, and I have nothing to gain by doing this. I'm not asking for money, or that you follow me on any social media, or trying to make new friends. I'm here as a true messenger trying to present glympses of the truth. It is my mission, as it is yours too, when you finally realize it.
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I would like to present to you a man named Chico Xavier (1910-2002). He is best known as the greatest medium (someone that can communicate with the dead and other spirits) of all times, having written over 400 psycographed books (that is, a book that was written through the hand of a medium but by a person who already died). This man sold over 20 million copies, but never earned one cent from it. He lived and died in poverty, and all the money and book rights he earned went straight to charity. To this days his books are sold and all the copyrights of those books go to dozens of charities in Brazil. Chico Xavier was the embodiment of a saint, a true example of service to humanity.
Here I'll present a mini-documentary (15 minutes long) about who he was. After watching this documentary, I predict a few questions may arise. First, you probably noticed that Chico Xavier was devoted to Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, Christ's image and teachings have been tarnished by our modern civilization, so I understand that you think this is a bunch of crap just because he talks about Jesus so much. At least that's what I would think a few years ago. Let me present to you a different view. Christ was a great master, just like Buddha and others that lived. Each true master teaches the same thing, but using different pointers. Jesus focused his teachings on unconditional love; Buddha on ego denial and meditation. And let me say that only a small part of the Bible really represents the true teachings of Christ, the rest was just made up by greedy men looking to control society. Chico Xavier was raised in a very Christian country (Brazil), so being devoted to Christ was also his way of reaching the most amount of people he could. He was what we call an Evangelical Spiritist.
There were a few cases where Chico's letters (from dead people) were even accepted in court as evidence that led to the acquital of people being prosecuted for murder. Also, he was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize, but didn't win. His story is truly amazing. Take a look if you will.
Here is the mini-documentary (3 parts of 5 minutes each):
Here is Chico talking about suicide and after-life:
Here is a trailler of a movie that was made about him:
Here is the movie itself, if you have any interest (I think this is also on Netflix):
All of those videos have English subtitles.
There's a lot more about him on youtube, but the vast majority is in Portuguese with no substitles, so I can't post here.
I can go further and post more 'evidences', but this is the strongest I have: the life of Chico Xavier. If this doesn't touch you in any way, nothing more that I can post here will.
I also found on my phone the video I recorded and sent to my family and closest friends the day before my spiritual guide manifested where I show how sweaty and dumbfounded I am because of what was happening. Could that be considered evidence that my story is true? I guess I'll upload to youtube soon post here and let you guys decide if you believe me or not.
"A close friend of mine, Vitor Moura Visoni, managed to get one of Xavier’s biggest and closest associates, Waldo Vieira, to clearly state that Xavier promoted hoaxes. Vieira should know because he was there.
Workers from the Spiritist Center went to the line [of followers] to get details from the deceased. Or they used stories told by relatives in the letters where they asked for a meeting. The messages from Chico had this information,” Vieira revealed. That would explain his “psychographed” letters with details that “only the deceased had known.” More than cold reading, this was just plain hoaxing. There were other hoaxes, according to Vieira."
On December 01 2018 22:50 Loco wrote:
"A close friend of mine, Vitor Moura Visoni, managed to get one of Xavier’s biggest and closest associates, Waldo Vieira, to clearly state that Xavier promoted hoaxes. Vieira should know because he was there.
Workers from the Spiritist Center went to the line [of followers] to get details from the deceased. Or they used stories told by relatives in the letters where they asked for a meeting. The messages from Chico had this information,” Vieira revealed. That would explain his “psychographed” letters with details that “only the deceased had known.” More than cold reading, this was just plain hoaxing. There were other hoaxes, according to Vieira."
Let me tell you, without judgement, that your source is wrong. And I can prove it. There was a rumor that Waldo Vieira said that, but he already confirmed that he never said such a thing. Here is an interview with Waldo Vieira, after Chico Xavier's death.
I'm sorry it's in portuguese, maybe the autotranslate can help.
If you want you can just skip to the end of the video (3:50) where Waldo says: 'he was 100%' (in portuguese)
Besides, Waldo Vieira was a medium himself and had a big following. He and Chico were close friends and later in life they separated, but were always somewhat close.
Finally, what could Chico Xavier gain with that? He died poor, in a single tiny bed, simple house, donated everything. He never married. All his life was dedicated to doing good. What kind of a charlatan is that?
no opinion at all on the contents of this thread but re: that paper
Method
After a systematic search for Xavier’s psychographed letters, we selected one set of 13 letters allegedly written by a same spiritual author (J.P.). The letters were initially screened for the identification of items of information that were objectively verifiable. The accuracy of the information conveyed by these items and the estimated likelihood of the Xavier’s access to the information via ordinary means were rated using Fit and Leak scales based on documents and interviews carried out with the sister and friends of J.P.
to base an experiment on answers from a group of people with innate biases for answers that can't otherwise be verified is well...not great methodology.
On December 01 2018 22:50 Loco wrote:
"A close friend of mine, Vitor Moura Visoni, managed to get one of Xavier’s biggest and closest associates, Waldo Vieira, to clearly state that Xavier promoted hoaxes. Vieira should know because he was there.
Workers from the Spiritist Center went to the line [of followers] to get details from the deceased. Or they used stories told by relatives in the letters where they asked for a meeting. The messages from Chico had this information,” Vieira revealed. That would explain his “psychographed” letters with details that “only the deceased had known.” More than cold reading, this was just plain hoaxing. There were other hoaxes, according to Vieira."
Let me tell you, without judgement, that your source is wrong. And I can prove it. There was a rumor that Waldo Vieira said that, but he already confirmed that he never said such a thing. Here is an interview with Waldo Vieira, after Chico Xavier's death.
I'm sorry it's in portuguese, maybe the autotranslate can help.
If you want you can just skip to the end of the video (3:50) where Waldo says: 'he was 100%' (in portuguese)
Besides, Waldo Vieira was a medium himself and had a big following. He and Chico were close friends and later in life they separated, but were always somewhat close.
Finally, what could Chico Xavier gain with that? He died poor, in a single tiny bed, simple house, donated everything. He never married. All his life was dedicated to doing good. What kind of a charlatan is that?
Why would you make me write down some shitty auto-generated portuguese youtube captions, and then use autotranslate which is a mess to begin with even starting with accurate text, so that I'd know what he's saying, when you could just easily tell us, in quotes, what it is that he says? Plus, you're the one trying to convince people here. I couldn't care less about this topic.
But even if he indeed does say it isn't true, it's not exactly evidence that he didn't say it, or that there weren't hoaxes happening. And if you have read the entire article I posted, then you'd know that Vieira discredits himself, by claiming that Diogo (and Chico) were authentic mediums despite their hoaxes. Using his "mediumship" and his friendship with Chico is meaningless. Or was that also made up? Let me play the same game as you, then, what use is there in the CSI writer, or this Visoni character, lying about those words? It's also convenient that you'd ignore commenting on the rest of the article, with this one person playing the role of a materialized spirit, and Chico claiming that this was a legitimate materialization, despite the fact that the person who did the hoax admitted it was a hoax in the end. Why don't you tell us what you think about that?
As for your puzzlement with the kind of life that he led . . . it's pretty simple. Self-deceived people can do good things. They don't have to be out to hurt people. In fact, this is how the article I posted ends, quoting Chico's words: "The truth that hurts is worse than the lie that comforts." So, what he had to gain, well, let's use a little bit of our reasoning skills. Not only has he become extremely famous, -- which alone some people want so much they kill others and even themselves for it -- but he has comforted people, through deceiving them, which gratified him. Almost certainly he deceived himself in the process, too.
Thing is, you didn't start this topic to speak about the usefulness of certain fictions (or potential fictions), you started by saying you could convince us that there is enough evidence to at least take these supernatural claims seriously, because you believe they are true. Appealing to our emotions and moving the goalpost isn't going to help you here. If you're going to say you are going to do your best to post evidence, just do that.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
To add to PoorUser's excellent catch, here's some things about the journal that this study was posted in that are worthy of note, as pointed out by this reddit user (<--click to have access to the relevant hyperlinks in the post that I'm not putting here):
I'm not convinced that EXPLORE: The Journal of Science and Healing is a scientific journal.
Oh, don't get me wrong: it looks like a science journal, on the surface. And it's published by a company that publishes scientific journals (although they have published fake journals in the past, too).
But I tried googling it a bit, and ended up finding their editorial board.
This is the website of their executive director: as you can plainly see, he is a medical doctor, but one focused on "alternative medicine", and with no evident experience in actual, reputable scientific research whatsoever.
This is one of the co-editors-in-chief. He has published in The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine (and in EXPLORE), but his only actual scientific publication (according to a Google Scholar search for his name) appears to be a lone article he was second author of, published in Academic Medicine, about lessons US medical educators could learn from how Cuba teaches CAM.
This is the other co-editor-in-chief. He has a PhD in psychology, so he actually has some actual scientific training, but none of his expertise appears to be even remotely related to the topics he claims to be a research scientist regarding, and while he has occasionally published research in actual journals, it seems to have consisted of papers like, "Reexamining psychokinesis: Comment on Bösch, Steinkamp, and Boller (2006)", and "Evidence for consciousness-related anomalies in random physical systems", and is completely overwhelmed by his list of publications from crank journals (like the European Journal of Parapsychology, Journal of Scientific Exploration, Subtle Energies & Energy Medicine Journal Archives, and The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine).
Their associate editors appear to be a bit more scientifically qualified, for the most part, if still wholesale cranks (advocating nonsense like reiki, homeopathy, and reflexology), but only 1 of the 3 actually seems to have much experience publishing scientific research (with another who has experience editing actual scientific journals).
Then, their editorial director is a journalist with no scientific expertise whatsoever.
Furthermore, if the editorial staff weren't suspect enough, let's consider some articles published in EXPLORE:
"Manifesto for a Post-Materialist Science" (co-authors include EXPLORE's executive director, and Rupert Sheldrake)
"Finding a Common Language: Resolving the Town and Gown Tension in Moving Toward Evidence-Informed Practice" (written by their co-editor-in-chief who uses and advocates for acupuncture and medical hypnosis)
"Conceptualizing Mind, Body, Spirit Interconnections Through, and Beyond, Spiritual Healing Practices" ("Design and Setting: A total of 12 spiritual healers from Aotearoa/New Zealand participated in a semi-structured interview about their healing practices."
"Guided Imagery for Postoperative Pain, Energy Healing for Quality of Life, Probiotics for Acute Diarrhea in Children, Acupuncture for Postoperative Nausea and Vomiting, and Animal-Assisted Therapy for Mental Disorders"
These are just from the same issue that published the study OP linked to. Going back just one issue before that, we get:
"Reiki Brief Report: Using Reiki to Reduce Stress Levels in a Nine-Year-Old Child"
"Treating the Root Cause: Acupuncture for the Treatment of Migraine, Menopausal Vasomotor Symptoms, and Chronic Insomnia"
"Acupuncture for Acute Stroke, Peppermint Oil for Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Yoga for Depression and Anxiety, Hypnotherapy for Smoking Cessation, and Lime Juice for Sickle Cell Anemia"
The issue before that, we get:
"Biofield-based Therapies: A Systematic Review of Physiological Effects on Practitioners During Healing"
"Moxibustion and Breech Presentation, Breathing Exercises and Asthma, Coenzyme Q10 and Heart Failure, Acupuncture and Chronic Low Back Pain, and Cinnamon and Diabetes"
In fact, of the roughly a dozen issues I glanced through, I couldn't find a single one that didn't have complete and obvious BS. It seems that a significant of the papers published appear to be real research, and that boggles my mind. Somehow, it seems, actual scientists are unwittingly submitting manuscripts to this "journal", evidently unaware of the kind of garbage they publish alongside it.
From what I can tell, EXPLORE appears to be a pseudoscientific journal which tries to market itself as a scientific journal, and which is sometimes mistaken for one.
And here's another post looking at the scientific rigor behind the "Fit and Leak" scales. (Hint: there's none)
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On December 01 2018 22:50 Loco wrote:
"A close friend of mine, Vitor Moura Visoni, managed to get one of Xavier’s biggest and closest associates, Waldo Vieira, to clearly state that Xavier promoted hoaxes. Vieira should know because he was there.
Workers from the Spiritist Center went to the line [of followers] to get details from the deceased. Or they used stories told by relatives in the letters where they asked for a meeting. The messages from Chico had this information,” Vieira revealed. That would explain his “psychographed” letters with details that “only the deceased had known.” More than cold reading, this was just plain hoaxing. There were other hoaxes, according to Vieira."
Let me tell you, without judgement, that your source is wrong. And I can prove it. There was a rumor that Waldo Vieira said that, but he already confirmed that he never said such a thing. Here is an interview with Waldo Vieira, after Chico Xavier's death.
I'm sorry it's in portuguese, maybe the autotranslate can help.
If you want you can just skip to the end of the video (3:50) where Waldo says: 'he was 100%' (in portuguese)
Besides, Waldo Vieira was a medium himself and had a big following. He and Chico were close friends and later in life they separated, but were always somewhat close.
Finally, what could Chico Xavier gain with that? He died poor, in a single tiny bed, simple house, donated everything. He never married. All his life was dedicated to doing good. What kind of a charlatan is that?
Why would you make me write down some shitty auto-generated portuguese youtube captions, and then use autotranslate which is a mess to begin with even starting with accurate text, so that I'd know what he's saying, when you could just easily tell us, in quotes, what it is that he says? Plus, you're the one trying to convince people here. I couldn't care less about this topic.
But even if he indeed does say it isn't true, it's not exactly evidence that he didn't say it, or that there weren't hoaxes happening. And if you have read the entire article I posted, then you'd know that Vieira discredits himself, by claiming that Diogo (and Chico) were authentic mediums despite their hoaxes. Using his "mediumship" and his friendship with Chico is meaningless. Or was that also made up? Let me play the same game as you, then, what use is there in the CSI writer, or this Visoni character, lying about those words? It's also convenient that you'd ignore commenting on the rest of the article, with this one person playing the role of a materialized spirit, and Chico claiming that this was a legitimate materialization, despite the fact that the person who did the hoax admitted it was a hoax in the end. Why don't you tell us what you think about that?
As for your puzzlement with the kind of life that he led . . . it's pretty simple. Self-deceived people can do good things. They don't have to be out to hurt people. In fact, this is how the article I posted ends, quoting Chico's words: "The truth that hurts is worse than the lie that comforts." So, what he had to gain, well, let's use a little bit of our reasoning skills. Not only has he become extremely famous, -- which alone some people want so much they kill others and even themselves for it -- but he has comforted people, through deceiving them, which gratified him. Almost certainly he deceived himself in the process, too.
Thing is, you didn't start this topic to speak about the usefulness of certain fictions (or potential fictions), you started by saying you could convince us that there is enough evidence to at least take these supernatural claims seriously, because you believe they are true. Appealing to our emotions and moving the goalpost isn't going to help you here. If you're going to say you are going to do your best to post evidence, just do that.
Yeah, PoorUser is right. The methodology of that study is not very good. It was the only thing in English I could find.
Loco, I think it is not very wise of me to enter this 'battle' with you. The amount of evidences in favour of Chico's work is pretty overwhelming in my view. There will always be people that wont believe him, no matter what. And it's ok. Chico has never been 'debunked' or 'caught as a fraud'. His entire life (more than 70 years writting books and letters) people tried to find holes in his letters and books, but never did to the extent that they could prove he was a fraud.
Again, he wrote more than 400 books (about a huge diversity of topics, while he had no formal education, only studied until the 5th grade) and THOUSANDS of letters from the dead with a lot of details that only those dead people could know. His letters were accepted in court, by judges and jury, in several occasions. And still, never debunked.
I did not waste any time reading the article you posted, because I know the information there can't be trusted already. It's just a very biased piece. But let me tell you. Before I was a believer, I would have people come up to me and say: 'What about Chico? Was he a fraud too to you?'. Back then, I searched the internet for anything I could present to those people proving he was a fraud, but I never did. I could indeed find things similar to the things you are presenting, but those are very very weak, specially if you compare them to the amount of evidence in favour of Chico. Believers will hold on the things in favour of him, non-believers on the things against him. I'm writting all of this for the ones who are on the fence and would like to hear more. I'm not out to convince everybody, let alone the most skepticals.
I don't know if you watched the documentary, and I wont ask you to. There was this interesting case that is shown in the documentary where 2 reportes where out to prove he was a fraud. They pretended they were American reporters that wanted to interview Chico. Their idea was: during the interview, if he can't tell we are fake American reporters, that's proof he is a fraud. After the interview, they were convinced he was a fraud, because he didn't uncover their true identity. Chico had given then 2 books as a gift at the end of the interview. When they got home, they oppened the books, and right in front of them it was written: "To my dear friends, XXX and YYY, from Emmanuel" (X and Y = their real names; Emmanuel = Chico's spiritual guide)". Those reporters tell the story in this mini-documentary, it was a huge story back then, because those two reporters were very respected at the time, so a lot of people started believing is Chico because of this.
Chico was famous, but he didn't appear much on TV or on any media. In his 70 years of work as a medium (he lived until 92), he was very closed and modest. He liked to use all his time to write and help people, to fulfill his mission, as he would put it. Sure you can believe that he chose to decieve himself and that all he wanted was fame. This doesn't seem likely to me. I guess the only way he could even look legit to you would be if he even recused any fame? How would one with such great powers not even become famous in the first place? He had to become famous in order to be able to reach the most amount of people possible. Anyway, I don't expect to convince you my friend. But I understand your skepticism, I totally do. Let's just kindly agree to disagree, if that's ok with you. I don't think you are anything less for not believing, we just have two different ways of looking to the world. Besides, even if Chico didn't exist, I would still believe what I believe, because I experienced it myself (and continue to experience it). So why even bother to discuss with a madman like myself? I think you should just let me be a crazy fool lol (this was a joke please don't take as if I'm making fun of you). I only started reading about Chico's work more seriously after I experienced spirit myself, then everything about him start to 'click'.
Namastê
Edit:
"The truth that hurts is worse than the lie that comforts."
Chico indeed said this, but not to mean he would write lies in order to comfort people, this was not it. People that want to discredit him often use this phrase without understanding what he meant. This phrase is just an universal thruth for us that see the world through the lens of unconditional love. I don't wanna be cheeky and appeal to emotions, but I guess I will have to a little bit.
When we say something that hurts others, even if it is true, we are creating negativity. That is not the way to live, but our society can't understand that in our current state of collective consciousness. We should never, ever hurt each other. Lying is obviously not correct, but if you lie in order to not make the other feel good, that's 'better' than saying something true that could hurt them. You can say now: "so if I cheat on my girlfriend I better lie about it so not to hurt her?". My answer is: NO. Again this would be a situation where there was a negative action (cheating) done in the first place. What Chico simply meant is: be kind. If you think someone is not beautiful and they ask you if they are, you should not hurt them by telling them they are ugly; it's better to lie and say they are pretty, because you recognize that the duality of beauty is an illusion. So yes, they are beautiful, because they are God, they are perfect, just as we all are.
Well isn't there a well documented scientific study from a Japanese guy, who was testing the intention/thought/environment effect on the structure of the water, isn't that a good start to ease in skeptical mind into some cool stuff
or there is this cool down to earth Indian girl who has her "3rd eye" opened since birth and she perceives subtler things, you can totally tell that to her its not a big deal, its normal to her and she sees some cool stuff that others don't see
I mean it doesn't require too much intuition and common sense to see that these things are real and there is no deception involved here
btw consider that if by any chance this Japanese guy is correct, what effect does skepticism have on your cells?:D
On December 02 2018 14:06 napalm wrote:
Well isn't there a well documented scientific study from a Japanese guy, who was testing the intention/thought/environment effect on the structure of the water, isn't that a good start to ease in skeptical mind into some cool stuff
Again, this is old stuff I came to be aware of some 10 years ago in the New Age raw vegan movement. No, it's not well documented science; it has no scientific credibility whatsoever. A quick wikipedia search would let you know this. Cliffs can be found here. Of course, when you have received zero scientific training yourself, chances are you'll just believe whatever is more pleasant to believe.
btw consider that if by any chance this Japanese guy is correct, what effect does skepticism have on your cells?:D
I can answer that. It has none. Thoughts don't directly affect cells. What directly affects cells, in the chain of command, and outside of external physical damage, is whether they get the substrates they require for their maintenance, which is dependent on our behavior, not our thoughts. Naturally, our thoughts can influence our behavior (and there's a feedback loop there, where the behavior retroacts on the kind of thoughts one will later have). This is because we've evolved the ability to adapt to our environment based on conscious awareness (learning). But most of our behavior, and consequently our thoughts, are the result of unconscious processes we are not aware of, which serve the 'purpose' (finality) of survival only (survival of the organism, its psychic structure, or the structure of the social group the organism belongs to).
More precisely, what will affect the cell is if the environment and the action of the organism on this environment are conducive to "well being", meaning, the organism is rarely restricted in his ability to gratify oneself, to meet his needs (whether those are fundamental or learned through socioculture) then that is all that is required for allostasis to occur, which is the process by which the organism is continually brought into balance and the structure of cells are properly maintained and normal senescence and regeneration occurs to keep the system regulated despite environmental unstability.
To use an example, if someone doubts that they are alive, as is seen in an illness like Cotard delusion, and they'd cease to eat (because dead people don't eat), we wouldn't say it was their skepticism that caused them to become starved, or even to become delusional; we'd say it's their behavior -- maladaptive behavior, which is reflected in the irrational belief system -- that led to the cells being starved of the substrates they need. Our thoughts are not influencing the structure of molecules or cells, they serve the purpose of learning and adapting to an environment at times, but most of the time they are mere interpretations of our behavior, and they come after the fact -- after an action has already been chosen. This is well known in neuroscience. See:
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Naturally, our thoughts can influence our behavior
I'm pretty sure our thoughts influence our behaviour all the time without a stop, whether you can sense it or not is a different question. And actually I wouldn't say our behaviour, but our physicality. It's still good to make a distinction though, cause you can completely ignore the thoughts and override them by physically forcing yourself to do specific things which would make you happier or more confident e.g. power poses, forcing yourself to smile etc. All of that has been scientifically proven. Naturally most people are not aware of that thus cannot really use it.
Naturally, our thoughts can influence our behavior
I'm pretty sure our thoughts influence our behaviour all the time without a stop, whether you can sense it or not is a different question. And actually I wouldn't say our behaviour, but our physicality. It's still good to make a distinction though, cause you can completely ignore the thoughts and override them by physically forcing yourself to do specific things which would make you happier or more confident e.g. power poses, forcing yourself to smile etc. All of that has been scientifically proven. Naturally most people are not aware of that thus cannot really use it.
If you think that our thoughts play a large and continuous role in influencing our behavior, then you should challenge your view and watch the entire Gifford lecture I posted (though the most relevant part is part 3, which I posted). The experiments with the split brain patients should blow your mind. Our thoughts have little direct influence or control over our behavior. They only appear to do so when we don't understand the functioning of our nervous system and its evolution, and we rely on our intuitions or "common sense" about them instead.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Our thoughts influence everything around us and within us. Every little thing. All things that exist, even people not close to us.
Scientific evidence for what I'm saying? I have none, and won't care to look for it. My spiritual guide tought me, and that's it.
It is what it is, but you don't need to believe me, and you also don't need to hate me.
I'm just the messenger.
Namastê
Edit:
Just to make it clear, I have great respect for science and scientists
It would be fascinating if science could prove this, but we are not quite there yet
On December 02 2018 16:44 tutz wrote:
Our thoughts influence everything around us and within us. Every little thing. All things that exist, even people not close to us.
And yet here you are, telling us to listen to the wisdom of Osho, who, in the vein of Freud and Gurdjieff, tells us that we are survival machines, driven by unconscious impulses. So, which is it? Thoughts directly affect all levels of reality, or thoughts are for the most part just surface foam, and they serve to interpret our experiences, not rule them?
It would be fascinating if science could prove this, but we are not quite there yet
"So there are machines that talk, machines that calculate and machines that have memory; machines have started doing everything that the mind of man can do. When the yogis, the tantrikas and the Upanishads said for the first time that the mind of man is just like a machine, people all over the world did not understand it. Now science has devised machines that do similar work to that of the mind, and there is no problem understanding it." - Osho
Edit:
I also remember your other idol Tolle saying/writing that something like 95%+ of our thoughts are just repetitive and useless. His idea is to be more present and think less, because thinking is mostly useless, the organism can take care of itself without it.
Both of Osho and Tolle's teachings are not refined or rigorous, they make mistakes and they are just generally too vague to be of interest, but from this alone they are still more aligned with what I'm saying here than with what you are saying.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
And yet here you are, telling us to listen to the wisdom of Osho, who, in the vein of Freud and Gurdjieff, tells us that we are survival machines, driven by unconscious impulses.
I never read that book, but to me that phrase seems true. We are indeed controlled by our ego (ego = thoughts), until we finally realize it (become consciouss, enlightment). End of thinking uncontrollably, end of suffering.
So, which is it? Thoughts directly affect all levels of reality, or thoughts are for the most part just surface foam, and they serve to interpret our experiences, not rule them?
Thoughts affect us in many ways. First, they shape our behaviour and way we see the world. Second, they affect the energy around us and what we attract. Third, they affect the energy that others receive from us. Fourth, they affect the way our body interprets reality. These are the most important ones. What perceives our reallity is the silent watcher, the consciouness behind our thoughts, our god essence. Then the thoughts come and create a meaning bound to this 3D world, limited. Practicing presence means not letting your thoughts rush in to interpret reality before you become aware of yourself first. This is the essence of what Eckhart Tolle and Osho try to teach. Presence. Space between thoughts.
"So there are machines that talk, machines that calculate and machines that have memory; machines have started doing everything that the mind of man can do. When the yogis, the tantrikas and the Upanishads said for the first time that the mind of man is just like a machine, people all over the world did not understand it. Now science has devised machines that do similar work to that of the mind, and there is no problem understanding it." - Osho
Good quote. What is the problem with it? I don't see any contradiction.
I also remember your other idol Tolle saying/writing that something like 95%+ of our thoughts are just repetitive and useless. His idea is to be more present and think less, because thinking is mostly useless, the organism can take care of itself without it.
Both of Osho and Tolle's teachings are not refined or rigorous, they make mistakes and they are just generally too vague to be of interest, but from this alone they are still more aligned with what I'm saying here than with what you are saying.
Well, all I can say is then don't listen to me and to them, right? I think it has always been pretty clear from the beginning that our world views are not compatible. And that's ok.
United States. Dec 02 2018 01:11. Posts 7471
