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Rake-Free & Ran By the Poker Community?

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Helmet   Philippines. Dec 14 2010 16:21. Posts 930

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/...oker-room-run-poker-community-938389/

From Genjix:

Hey,

Everyday 200k play on PokerStars. After the day's end, PokerStars has netted a nice $1.34 million. They give themselves a nice pat on the back while the players have been exploited. Running a Poker site is not a high-cost expense.

Rake distorts the games. Without rake, a losing player might be breakeven, a breakeven player a solid winner and a winner is a MASSIVE winner. People move up faster leading to more fish at higher stakes benefiting the whole Poker economy.

Even with the huge sums taken out of the games by the sites, they still offer shoddy service in return. PokerStars gives you a couple of TV tournaments and a piecemeal updates to their software. Cake Poker gives you atrociously bad security; any programmer can tell you how easy it is to secure your software using programming that is free on the net.

We're proposing a community run Poker room. The software will be completely free/open so anyone can inspect it to make improvements. Because eyes of the whole Poker community will be fixed on it, flaws & security problems very quickly disappear. And if you wish to make your own Poker room then you can! As the server code is also free & open.

We've been working on this rake-free Poker room. For those interested there is an online meeting between Poker players at 22:00 GMT (5PM EST) on Thursday Dec 16th in #pokerface on Freenode. For anyone not familiar with IRC you can join the chatroom here:
http://pastecoin.com/cgi-bin/irc.cgi

If you're interested in this project but won't be able to make the meeting, don't worry about it. The meeting will be logged and posted on the wiki. Even if you're not a developer we need regular poker players to tell us what they want so please attend and voice your thoughts.

See you there!





hope you don't mind me posting this here. get mad at me if you want. i am just excited about this project.

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People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal CityLast edit: 16/12/2010 11:08

Helmet   Philippines. Dec 14 2010 16:21. Posts 930

you're my new hero dude.

People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City 

jchysk   United States. Dec 14 2010 16:35. Posts 435

I was going to get a starred member here post that so it doesn't get modded away as spam :-P

w00t 

iop   Sweden. Dec 14 2010 16:36. Posts 4944

Everything I've heard about genjix is not so good, however he seems sincere and mature in the first few posts I've read on 2+2.. Didn't he get banned from LP?
I still wouldn't want to play there though, seems too risky.

Although we wouldn't mind speaking to a lawyer, it's not a priority. The protocol is federated so servers can be hosted in many countries (shut one down and it continues running). I won't go into the technical details, but we have a system in place to make sure funds will always be secure in case of seizure (at worst we have a few hours in which to quickly secure the funds into an alternate account which takes ~10 mins).

Milkman lol i didnt spend half a thousand on a phone so i could play it cool and be all stealthLast edit: 14/12/2010 16:41

jchysk   United States. Dec 14 2010 16:41. Posts 435


  On December 14 2010 15:36 iop wrote:
Everything I've heard about genjix is fairly bad, he seems sincere and mature in the first few posts I read on 2+2.
I still wouldn't want to play there though, seems too risky.

Although we wouldn't mind speaking to a lawyer, it's not a priority. The protocol is federated so servers can be hosted in many countries (shut one down and it continues running). I won't go into the technical details, but we have a system in place to make sure funds will always be secure in case of seizure (at worst we have a few hours in which to quickly secure the funds into an alternate account which takes ~10 mins).



Well the idea would be to make it less risky than using existing poker rooms. The way the system is set up is for security purposes, not to slip by legalities.
Also, although genjix was the one that started this project, it is open source and available to everyone. So you can dislike any of the developers and still use the software.

w00t 

[vital]Myth    United States. Dec 14 2010 16:48. Posts 12159

wayyyy too risky. the INSTANT somebody finds a security flaw, nobody will know about it. there are far more brilliant programmers who are looking for this kind of opportunity than there are poker players who are sufficiently good programmers to make sure this is secure. the reason why stars/ftp are SO secure is because they have a HUUUUUUUUUGE amount of income to protect and they are able to hire fantastic talent to keep it that way.

besides, nobody but moderately winning or breakeven grinders would want to move to this site anyway. you'll have a very small group of snobby pros getting together and trading money back and forth. any casual player who would put enough effort into their poker-site selection to actually find one that is rake-free is probably a nit anyway.

why don't you try and get HEM/HUDs/all other supplemental programs banned instead? THAT would make a real change in the games

Eh, I can go a few more orbits in life, before taxes blind me out - PoorUserLast edit: 14/12/2010 16:51

Helmet   Philippines. Dec 14 2010 16:50. Posts 930


  On December 14 2010 15:36 iop wrote:
Everything I've heard about genjix is not so good, however he seems sincere and mature in the first few posts I've read on 2+2.. Didn't he get banned from LP?
I still wouldn't want to play there though, seems too risky.

Although we wouldn't mind speaking to a lawyer, it's not a priority. The protocol is federated so servers can be hosted in many countries (shut one down and it continues running). I won't go into the technical details, but we have a system in place to make sure funds will always be secure in case of seizure (at worst we have a few hours in which to quickly secure the funds into an alternate account which takes ~10 mins).



dude... you don't have to play you regular stakes here. think of it as a home game and just give a little support to it. Play there to relax or something.

i think this project is a start of a new wave of possibilities in online poker. big dreams, yeah. but it is still a possibility.

People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City 

Helmet   Philippines. Dec 14 2010 16:54. Posts 930


  On December 14 2010 15:48 [vital]Myth wrote:
wayyyy too risky. the INSTANT somebody finds a security flaw, nobody will know about it. there are far more brilliant programmers who are looking for this kind of opportunity than there are poker players who are sufficiently good programmers to make sure this is secure. the reason why stars/ftp are SO secure is because they have a HUUUUUUUUUGE amount of income to protect and they are able to hire fantastic talent to keep it that way.

besides, nobody but moderately winning or breakeven grinders would want to move to this site anyway. you'll have a very small group of snobby pros getting together and trading money back and forth. any casual player who would put enough effort into their poker-site selection to actually find one that is rake-free is probably a nit anyway.

why don't you try and get HEM/HUDs/all other supplemental programs banned instead? THAT would make a real change in the games



don't even try to compare this to a major site. think of this as something like a home game. something fresh and new. just be positive... and good things will come in your life.

People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City 

PanoRaMa   United States. Dec 14 2010 16:55. Posts 1655

You guys remember WSEX? Rake-free poker (well actually just 100% rakeback), anyone know why it never became a big player?

http://panorama.liquidpoker.netLast edit: 14/12/2010 16:56

Helmet   Philippines. Dec 14 2010 17:02. Posts 930


  On December 14 2010 15:55 PanoRaMa wrote:
You guys remember WSEX? Rake-free poker (well actually just 100% rakeback), anyone know why it never became a big player?



"We're proposing a community run Poker room. The software will be completely free/open so anyone can inspect it to make improvements. Because eyes of the whole Poker community will be fixed on it, flaws & security problems very quickly disappear. And if you wish to make your own Poker room then you can! As the server code is also free & open."

this is an open source project. that's why it's different. the aim is to make a nice rake free poker room for everyone, not profit.

not even US/European laws can touch this cos the currency is bitcoin. so it is all legal.

People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal City 

PoorUser    United States. Dec 14 2010 17:02. Posts 7390

anytime a company doesn't want to "get into the specifics" about where they are going to keep the money i find myself a bit reluctant to be affiliated with them in any way -_-...

Moneys gotta go in here 

Helmet   Philippines. Dec 14 2010 17:05. Posts 930

what money? the site wont even profit. it's just like battlenet dude. a server where you find other players to play with.

the currency is based on bitcoin. to get bitcoin you have to go to a bitcoin processor for that.

https://www.bitcoingateway.com/
https://mtgox.com/ <- best service IMO
http://www.bitcoin2cc.com/
http://www.nanaimo-gold.com/
https://btcex.com/
https://www.bitcoin4cash.com/buy.php

People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal CityLast edit: 14/12/2010 17:07

JonnyCosMo   United States. Dec 14 2010 17:17. Posts 7292

Not to be a negative nancy but... this wont work

Everyone needs to see that you are king of the castle - PoorUser 

VanDerMeyde   Norway. Dec 14 2010 17:17. Posts 4935

I really wish poker sites was owned by poker online players who cared about the community and had knowledge about the online community. If they listen to community we can make some changes to the games that everyone wants such as banning professional shortstackers, limiting HU tables in a way that gives an advantage to players such as Isildur etc that gives action and not just bumhunt. It can make the games great again.

:D 

Helmet   Philippines. Dec 14 2010 17:19. Posts 930


  On December 14 2010 16:17 JonnyCosMo wrote:
Not to be a negative nancy but... this wont work



of course it will. you just have to support it.

also to the people who are clueless, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source_movement

genjix's project is something like a "poker version" of the open source movement.

People who are brash and not image focused, people who are the opposite of sycophantic are maybe stereotypically the most trustworthy. - Steal CityLast edit: 14/12/2010 17:20

thumbz555   United States. Dec 14 2010 17:19. Posts 3281

WHERE DO I SIGN UP FOR SUPERUSER ACCOUNT?

I click buttons. 

jchysk   United States. Dec 14 2010 17:25. Posts 435

http://www.couchsurfing.org/people/genjix - He has positive references :-)
Anyway, everything is open, the reason no specifics were mentioned is because didn't want to get off topic. Anyone who feels like it may look at exactly how the system is run.


  On December 14 2010 15:48 [vital]Myth wrote:
wayyyy too risky. the INSTANT somebody finds a security flaw, nobody will know about it. there are far more brilliant programmers who are looking for this kind of opportunity than there are poker players who are sufficiently good programmers to make sure this is secure. the reason why stars/ftp are SO secure is because they have a HUUUUUUUUUGE amount of income to protect and they are able to hire fantastic talent to keep it that way.

besides, nobody but moderately winning or breakeven grinders would want to move to this site anyway. you'll have a very small group of snobby pros getting together and trading money back and forth. any casual player who would put enough effort into their poker-site selection to actually find one that is rake-free is probably a nit anyway.

why don't you try and get HEM/HUDs/all other supplemental programs banned instead? THAT would make a real change in the games



Although I can see why you think like this, you're incorrect about security. The instant somebody finds a security flaw in pokerstars or full tilt, nobody will know about it. Open source security is better than closed source.

"Firstly I shall preface this by saying that security through obscurity is bad security policy. Proven to be false. By saying that everyone has access to the technology means it's less secure is false- it means that everyone has a chance to make it more secure.

That's why Linux (open-source) software is used by armies, banks, nasa, most internet servers and supercomputers- because it leads to secure, solid, reliable software. Whereas Microsoft (commercial closed source) is only dominant in the desktop market. Your android phone? Running Linux.

Simply hiding away the internals of how the technology works and making it difficult to reverse engineer, means that determined motivated people WILL find holes but you make it difficult for the wider community to find problems and fix them."
Malware & Viruses:
Windows: > 2 million malware programs.
Linux: outside of researchers labs: virtually unknown.

Open vs Closed:
Windows: trust Microsoft to do the right thing.
Linux: anyone free to submit fixes.

Response Speed:
Windows: fixes released once a month. Security vulnerabilities known to persist for months and even years.
Linux: sometimes within hours, usually within a few weeks.

User Accounts:
Windows: everyone is Administrator.
Linux: carefully partitioned system with user rights.

Filesystem Permissions:
Windows: unused.
Linux: unix filesystem permissions.


The project is already in the works and I don't really see how it could be bad for the poker community. Even if it's not a success and it's just a small site full of nits and geeks at least we're moving in the right direction without harming anyone. If it is a success players have everything to gain. A rake free or heavily rake reduced site with the best software that brings enough competition forward to leverage big sites to reduce rake or improve their software.

w00t 

EvilSky    Czech Republic. Dec 14 2010 17:52. Posts 8915

Im all for this and hope it does well but personally Id rather pay rake for the rest of my life on stars.


Arirang   Canada. Dec 14 2010 19:41. Posts 1673

I am one of the cowards that wishes that this will go all well and all, but will never get wet myself until it is well established. I mean, it has potential, but I don't know if it will succeed. It should work in theory, but as we are all human, I doubt this will work. And I know that this is exactly the attitude that hinders this project, but can you blame me? When it comes to money related stuff, people are going to be (really) careful about it.

I mean, I'm sure a lot of what you say is true (about how great OpenSource is and whatnot). What the hell do I know, really. I'm ignorant about that kind of stuff. But I do know that it is well within human nature to be greedy. Or in the least, succumb to greed, even for a split moment. And that if there is a security flaw of any sort with this site, I don't know how confident I would be in believing that it will get fixed in a timely manner before it gets pimped thoroughly. Also, OpenSource seems to mean that I have no one to blame for when things do go sour. I don't know about you, but I seek comfort in being able to blame somebody when shit goes wrong with my money. If something goes wrong with Stars or FTP (God forbid), you have someone to point your fingers at and they're legally liable for that. If something goes wrong with this project, who's responsible? Non-for-profit is great, but so is for-profit. Actually, it may even be a better model for poker sites. Sites like Stars and FTP are a business. With business, there is a need of maintaining reputation and further improving it, especially in a community like this because reputation is everything. These sites solely run on credibility as they lose the trust of the players, it's over. So they make sure to maintain that reputation and integrity.

Is this bad for poker community? No, if anything, it's great. I agree with that. Is it gonna really work? Who knows. I am supportive about it the project, and I look forward to it. But for the said reasons above, I am not going to get actively involved in it. But I salute the adventurous souls that are willing to take a chance with this.


redrain0125   Canada. Dec 14 2010 20:12. Posts 5451

cliffnotes: genjix cant be a winner in poker


 
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