Rake-Free & Ran By the Poker Community? - Page 4

LOL people being negative with open source, if you don't know about something go read about it, there's nothing wrong with having no clue about something.

This project is good in many ways, because even when you don't want do deposit your money on a project because it isn't as commercial as PS or FTP it could inspire more people to build their own software, and with more alternatives even big sites can start taking ideas from this projects.

Another good thing about being an Open Source project is that, there's a lot of possibilities, you can take the code and use it to create a network to play only with your friends, you can even take out the money thing, and make a play money poker room, put ads, and start earning money. Use it for coaching purposes or i don't know.

C'mon he's not saying that it will overwhelm PS and FTP, and he's not asking to put your entire bankroll on that site.

On December 15 2010 22:27 TekxY wrote: Another good thing about being an Open Source project is that, there's a lot of possibilities, you can take the code and use it to create a network to play only with your friends, you can even take out the money thing, and make a play money poker room, put ads, and start earning money. Use it for coaching purposes or i don't know.

... or sell the idea to justin timberlake and get big company funding. the possibilities are endless... hope they get it online soon and get as many users as possible so that they get noticed.

maybe i could work out a advertisement deal with genjix.. i would settle for him charging me rake and giving me 100% back and making my name red.

On December 15 2010 23:18 milkman wrote: maybe i could work out a advertisement deal with genjix.. i would settle for him charging me rake and giving me 100% back and making my name red.

maybe. gl.

no fish = fucked for life = do things to live = hrm should we segregate player funds after all = boydism v 2.0

when u hire lee jones and unassigned and get them to say that the site is aight, all of this after getting an advertising and marketing budget, and then the sites been runnin 2 years and after all of that shit or the equivalent, aight, i might give u a look

I haven't been involved in this yet and I don't know what direction they plan to go in, but I think a lot of people are missing a couple points:
_This is obviously not meant to be a competitor to PS et al (at least not yet). To think that that is possible right now is delusional. Imo, this should solely be seen as a proof of concept. If it worked, it would be interesting to see if it can be monetized through advertising/some other model that at least depends on people_in_play and not money_in_play.

_Security concerns should be non-existent to minimal. You don't have to deposit your savings, in fact it would be pointless to deposit more than $5. Open source means that any technical security concerns can be addressed by code review. The internet being what it is today, (finding information on) implementing good security features would not be difficult and can be reduced to copying code from other open source projects.

This project certainly doesn't require hiring "fantastic talent" to code any of it, but I'm not trying to undervalue any of the work you guys did/are doing so far. There are SOOOOO many good reasons to do this as a proof of concept.

On December 15 2010 13:05 Defrag wrote: This idea has no right of existance in a poker world, sorry.

If (there was a rake free site) that {(found a good way to monetize independently of player balances) and (got the support of some pros and community)} your comment would be silly. Even if there wasn't...your comment would still be short sighted. I wonder why you think that....


Anyways, there are many hurdles to it getting to that point that I'm not sure it will work. Some questions:

_What will happen to balances not in play? Will the money accumulate interest? Who would be in charge of that?

_Since it will be decentralized and this is 2010, are there plans for a web app?
- HTML 5 might make that a joke to code, but I don't know that for sure... Android app? I think these are things you can do with relatively little effort, and still not get too far ahead of yourselves. This has my support 100% for coding and testing... not sure about money.

just remember him acting like a 5 year old in london. maybe he has grown up. all the best.

but there is a rake-free World Poker Exchange already isn't it?

Level of blind ignorance and people putting their fingers in their ears yelling "never going to work lalala" here, is amazing.
Poker players as a group of people are pretty open minded and evidence-based, but to see even smart people like nazgul, cosmo, myth categorically dismissing this concept without even understanding what it is, disheartening for humanity as a whole!

and steal city is all: "genjix's trustworthiness is nothing to do with this project.. now to tell you how trustworthy genjix is and put alot of foucs on the topic of genjixs' trustworthiness!"


...And I'm all: "ahh yes, meta-criticism, is there any better kind? <sip water from a wine glass>"

back to network-of-trust based poker games on the internet!

On December 16 2010 04:24 Silver_nz wrote: Level of blind ignorance and people putting their fingers in their ears yelling "never going to work lalala" here, is amazing. Poker players as a group of people are pretty open minded and evidence-based, but to see even smart people like nazgul, cosmo, myth categorically dismissing this concept without even understanding what it is, disheartening for humanity as a whole! and steal city is all: "genjix's trustworthiness is nothing to do with this project.. now to tell you how trustworthy genjix is and put alot of foucs on the topic of genjixs' trustworthiness!" ...And I'm all: "ahh yes, meta-criticism, is there any better kind? <sip water from a wine glass>" back to network-of-trust based poker games on the internet!

dude its liquidpoker.. any thread these days is gonna get turned into a derailed drama trolling shit storm.. i dont think ive created a single thread in the last 2 years that someone hasnt been like "lol tornado" or "get in the pantry" or just someone trying to troll and derail. The whole sites just a unmoderated poopy blob of words so nazgul can make money off rakeback. We did bring water to africa tho so that was 1 good thing that came from this community.. doubt anything else will tho.

On December 16 2010 04:24 Silver_nz wrote: Level of blind ignorance and people putting their fingers in their ears yelling "never going to work lalala" here, is amazing. Poker players as a group of people are pretty open minded and evidence-based, but to see even smart people like nazgul, cosmo, myth categorically dismissing this concept without even understanding what it is, disheartening for humanity as a whole! and steal city is all: "genjix's trustworthiness is nothing to do with this project.. now to tell you how trustworthy genjix is and put alot of foucs on the topic of genjixs' trustworthiness!" ...And I'm all: "ahh yes, meta-criticism, is there any better kind? <sip water from a wine glass>" back to network-of-trust based poker games on the internet!

how is this wrong

"genjix's trustworthiness is nothing to do with this project.. now to tell you how trustworthy genjix is and put alot of foucs on the topic of genjixs' trustworthiness!"

it's not the place but he was attacked and I defended... but I wasn't defending on the basis of it being part of the objective of the thread by the OP but defending on the basis that his trustworthiness was brought into question

Great idea, seems nearly impossible to pull enough of a player base to be able to multitable etc though;

imo this would be an amazing cell phone app for traveling and 1 tabling

stay with your gut and do your best gengix,
gl w/ your endeavors,
Ryan

oh... for those of you not familiar with bitcoin and what it's all about, read it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin

I think it's pretty amazing the effort genjix, jchysk and others involved seem to be putting into something like this for alturistic goals and ideals. Having been a poker player as long as I have, it's almost unheard of to me for there to be people out there putting time and effort into something for reasons other than chasing personal gain. Even if you don't think it's going to work or question the ideals they're motivated by (that poker sites are charging too much at lowstakes etc) you still have to admit it's v admirable there are people doing this.

Quick question, is Bitcoin the only form of handling money/keeping score being considered at this stage? One way I would like to use an open source poker server + client software if it existed would be to set up private 'home' games with players I trust, where funds transfer between losers and winners would be handled by the players themselves afterwards, say by full tilt transfer or something. The way I imagine it would go something like, I challenge my friend to a rake-free $5/10 HU 4tabling grudge/sparring match. I get the open source poker server running and use the server admin panel to create two user accounts on the server, one for me and one for my friend. I use the admin panel to set the cashier balances of both our accounts to 10k virtual monies. Somehow there's full transparency of server admin actions like making accounts and manually changing balances so that any user logged into a user account can see a list of all admin actions to see nothing shady is going on etc. Now my friend and I both get the open source client running and make it connect to the server I have running and we log into our accounts where we each have 10k virtual monies in our cashiers to start off with. Now we play the match and it works just as youd expect this software to work, most of it happens server side and the client just does what the client should. At the end of the match I've lost 8k to my friend and say gg and decide to quit bc im a fish. We check our balances using the cashier button on the client to confirm the final tally and I send him what I owe him over full tilt transfer or bank wire or I.O.U note or food stamps or whatever else we agreed on. Then later on I import the HHs from the match into HEM to review them because the awesome opensource software also recorded all the HHs on my computer in the standard HEM format.

On December 14 2010 22:55 Bejamin1 wrote: Honestly considering you make money off of Pokerstars and FTP through referrals I'm not sure your opinion is the most unbiased on the subject. It's been mentioned in this thread and it's true open source security is just as good. It's all well and good to be cautious but any security issue is going to be openly debated and fixed. Why is it you feel so secure with Pokerstars just because it's a commercial enterprize? UB and Absolute bet were in the same boat and guess what they fucked people over. Same with smaller private skins like RedNines and stuff like that.

Let's say this project was perfect and it functioned safer than anything else with no rake and offered all the benefits and was completely legal and basically a gods gift for every poker player the only thing that would do for me is make me incredibly happy. Unlike some I don't actually put money over my values and I would never say something is bad for the sole reason of making more money. We actually make a lot less per player from PS/FTP because they offer the shittiest deals because they are so good. I'll be the first to say that they are the safest and most trustworthy pokersites out there. I'm not here to tell you other pokernetworks are safer than FTP/PS so that I can earn more money.

The mentioning of open source security by jchysk being just as good as a commercial security is very limited look at things. It looks at Linux and Windows and nothing else. If you look a bit deeper into this it mentions "armies, banks, nasa, most internet servers and supercomputers" using Linux. However it fails to look at the comparison where there is no way on earth that these companies would have used Linux in its earliest stages of development. Linux is an old program that has had a lot of time to mature. Saying look nasa uses an open source program so we can do it too is clearly not looking at the bigger picture; it went through years and years of open source development before being mentioned in this topic as used by companies that needed a secure program. To put a pokernetwork out there and refer to Linux as a good example of open source working for security is in fact not supporting the argument but it is hurting it as it is a completely different situation.

The way a wikipedia works is that when you have a base of millions/billions of people an error is quickly found and removed. If your base of capable/understanding/willing people is smaller this, fast development is actually not the case. (small note of experience is that I run a wikipedia on www.teamliquid.net for StarCraft). When you have such a small group of people willing and capable to help out, which was/is the case for StarCraft (our wikipedia), you need a fully committed and trustworthy staff who have the dedication to keep going because the users simply won't fix your problems. When you limit your input solely to those who know how to program (which is the case for a pokernetwork) this group of people who can put in the effort for quick changes becomes even smaller and essentially it will not be a community ran project but it will become a project where a limited group of people (those who started it most likely) will have to do the majority of the work; the opposite of the attitude "it's open source so everybody will fix security holes". In terms of effort wikipedia and open-source need a staff for as long as it is not millions of people improving it because just open source or just a wikipedia simply is not going to present you with a quality product if the group of users able to adjust things is too small.

That is just in terms of effort and whether you can find enough people to work on this. A second issue is speed of development. Programming is no easy thing and it's not like you just write 5 minutes of code to fix a security hole. It takes time to research and look around, then it takes more time to actually get something done about it, if the person doing this is even capable enough. This means that security holes will be around for a decent amount of time. It's not like you just point at a security hole and it's fixed the next minute. In fact if the organization running this software finds a security hole it is probably safer to temporarily take the site down as it's pretty risky not knowing how fast your open source will be ready to fix it.

So effort, speed are two factors and then the last factor is unique to being a pokernetwork and that is trusting those who work on your open source. Wikipedia which is not about money yet there are a lot of people just messing with it, but because there are millions of others checking it this is usually easily overcome. When your group of dedicated open source users is limited (like I said the fact that it is only programmers who can work on it is a huge limitation vs something like a wiki) it is also easier for someone with bad intentions not to fix a security hole but instead abuse it. The stories of people abusing irregularities, agreements or flat out trying to scam in this industry are incredibly high and are not something to be taken lightly. Any financial sector will have a huge amount of people trying to take advantages of the way things work and poker is no different. In fact with the gambling aspect added to it it is probably one of the most sensitive industries to people ignoring morals and choosing to do only that which is good for themselves.

The Bitcoin system is a pretty awesome currency system to use for this because it deals with a lot of the risks regarding having a bankroll somewhere, and probably the only way to give something like this a try at all.

Why is it you feel so secure with Pokerstars just because it's a commercial enterprize?

Then lastly I want to respond to this specifically. Yes. I feel secure with PokerStars because they make money from being trustworthy. If PokerStars has a security hole they will have to do everything in their power to refund those who were damaged by it. They have the money to do so, and they have an image to uphold to continue doing this in the future. The moment a commercial entity is able to make the choice where illegally taking money (or not refunding) is more EV for them than maintaining their good image that is when things become dangerous and the point where we have to rely on the morals of such a company. PokerStars however we don't even have to question their morals because simple business sense tells them they can't risk any kind of security hole being responsible for consumers losing money. We all know PokerStars has enough money and that they are in this for the long run so there is absolutely no way in my mind anything will be more secure than them.

Lastly I have very mixed feelings about this project. I do admire the effort of doing all this from an idealistic perspective. It is something I can relate to and that I can really appreciate and have nothing but respect for that attitude. But I also see the potential trouble related to it that may end up hurting people. I really hope that this project gets off its feet without causing damage to those believing in it.

On December 16 2010 08:20 Ket wrote: I think it's pretty amazing the effort genjix, jchysk and others involved seem to be putting into something like this for alturistic goals and ideals. Having been a poker player as long as I have, it's almost unheard of to me for there to be people out there putting time and effort into something for reasons other than chasing personal gain. Even if you don't think it's going to work or question the ideals they're motivated by (that poker sites are charging too much at lowstakes etc) you still have to admit it's v admirable there are people doing this. Quick question, is Bitcoin the only form of handling money/keeping score being considered at this stage? One way I would like to use an open source poker server + client software if it existed would be to set up private 'home' games with players I trust, where funds transfer between losers and winners would be handled by the players themselves afterwards, say by full tilt transfer or something. The way I imagine it would go something like, I challenge my friend to a rake-free $5/10 HU 4tabling grudge/sparring match. I get the open source poker server running and use the server admin panel to create two user accounts on the server, one for me and one for my friend. I use the admin panel to set the cashier balances of both our accounts to 10k virtual monies. Somehow there's full transparency of server admin actions like making accounts and manually changing balances so that any user logged into a user account can see a list of all admin actions to see nothing shady is going on etc. Now my friend and I both get the open source client running and make it connect to the server I have running and we log into our accounts where we each have 10k virtual monies in our cashiers to start off with. Now we play the match and it works just as youd expect this software to work, most of it happens server side and the client just does what the client should. At the end of the match I've lost 8k to my friend and say gg and decide to quit bc im a fish. We check our balances using the cashier button on the client to confirm the final tally and I send him what I owe him over full tilt transfer or bank wire or I.O.U note or food stamps or whatever else we agreed on. Then later on I import the HHs from the match into HEM to review them because the awesome opensource software also recorded all the HHs on my computer in the standard HEM format.

why not play play money on PS?

On December 16 2010 08:22 Nazgul wrote: Show nested quote + On December 14 2010 22:55 Bejamin1 wrote: Honestly considering you make money off of Pokerstars and FTP through referrals I'm not sure your opinion is the most unbiased on the subject. It's been mentioned in this thread and it's true open source security is just as good. It's all well and good to be cautious but any security issue is going to be openly debated and fixed. Why is it you feel so secure with Pokerstars just because it's a commercial enterprize? UB and Absolute bet were in the same boat and guess what they fucked people over. Same with smaller private skins like RedNines and stuff like that. Let's say this project was perfect and it functioned safer than anything else with no rake and offered all the benefits and was completely legal and basically a gods gift for every poker player the only thing that would do for me is make me incredibly happy. Unlike some I don't actually put money over my values and I would never say something is bad for the sole reason of making more money. We actually make a lot less per player from PS/FTP because they offer the shittiest deals because they are so good. I'll be the first to say that they are the safest and most trustworthy pokersites out there. I'm not here to tell you other pokernetworks are safer than FTP/PS so that I can earn more money. The mentioning of open source security by jchysk being just as good as a commercial security is very limited look at things. It looks at Linux and Windows and nothing else. If you look a bit deeper into this it mentions "armies, banks, nasa, most internet servers and supercomputers" using Linux. However it fails to look at the comparison where there is no way on earth that these companies would have used Linux in its earliest stages of development. Linux is an old program that has had a lot of time to mature. Saying look nasa uses an open source program so we can do it too is clearly not looking at the bigger picture; it went through years and years of open source development before being mentioned in this topic as used by companies that needed a secure program. To put a pokernetwork out there and refer to Linux as a good example of open source working for security is in fact not supporting the argument but it is hurting it as it is a completely different situation. The way a wikipedia works is that when you have a base of millions/billions of people an error is quickly found and removed. If your base of capable/understanding/willing people is smaller this fast development is actually not the case. (small note of experience is that I run a wikipedia on www.teamliquid.net for StarCraft). When you have such a small group of people willing and capable to help out, which was/is the case for StarCraft (our wikipedia), you need a fully committed and trustworthy staff who have the dedication to keep going because the users simply won't fix your problems. When you limit your input solely to those who know how to program (which is the case for a pokernetwork) this group of people who can put in the effort for quick changes becomes even smaller and essentially it will not be a community ran project but it will become a project where a limited group of people (those who started it most likely) will have to do the majority of the work; the opposite of the attitude "it's open source so everybody will fix security holes". In terms of effort wikipedia and open-source need a staff for as long as it is not millions of people improving it because just open source or just a wikipedia simply is not going to present you with a quality product if the group of users able to adjust things is too small. That is just in terms of effort and whether you can find enough people to work on this. A second issue is speed of development. Programming is no easy thing and it's not like you just write 5 minutes of code to fix a security hole. It takes time to research and look around, then it takes more time to actually get something done about it, if the person doing this is even capable enough. This means that security holes will be around for a decent amount of time. It's not like you just point at a security hole and it's fixed the next minute. In fact if the organization running this software finds a security hole it is probably safer to temporarily take the site down as it's pretty risky not knowing how fast your open source will be ready to fix it. So effort, speed are two factors and then the last factor is unique to being a pokernetwork and that is trusting those who work on your open source. Wikipedia which is not about money there are a lot of people just messing with it, but because there are millions of others checking it this is usually easily overcome. When your group of dedicated open source users is limited (like I said the fact that it is only programmers who can work on it is a huge limitation vs something like a wiki) it is also easier for someone with bad intentions not to fix a security hole but instead abuse it. The stories of people abusing irregularities, agreements or flat out trying to scam in this industry are incredibly high and are not something to be taken lightly. Any financial sector will have a huge amount of people trying to take advantages of the way things work and poker is no different. In fact with the gambling aspect added to it it is probably one of the most sensitive industries to people ignoring morals and choosing to do only that which is good for themselves.

sir, with all due respect, that is why they need your and the community's support. your experience, know-how and suggestions or whatever you can offer are needed to make this a success.

On December 16 2010 09:31 Steal City wrote: Show nested quote + On December 16 2010 08:20 Ket wrote: I think it's pretty amazing the effort genjix, jchysk and others involved seem to be putting into something like this for alturistic goals and ideals. Having been a poker player as long as I have, it's almost unheard of to me for there to be people out there putting time and effort into something for reasons other than chasing personal gain. Even if you don't think it's going to work or question the ideals they're motivated by (that poker sites are charging too much at lowstakes etc) you still have to admit it's v admirable there are people doing this. Quick question, is Bitcoin the only form of handling money/keeping score being considered at this stage? One way I would like to use an open source poker server + client software if it existed would be to set up private 'home' games with players I trust, where funds transfer between losers and winners would be handled by the players themselves afterwards, say by full tilt transfer or something. The way I imagine it would go something like, I challenge my friend to a rake-free $5/10 HU 4tabling grudge/sparring match. I get the open source poker server running and use the server admin panel to create two user accounts on the server, one for me and one for my friend. I use the admin panel to set the cashier balances of both our accounts to 10k virtual monies. Somehow there's full transparency of server admin actions like making accounts and manually changing balances so that any user logged into a user account can see a list of all admin actions to see nothing shady is going on etc. Now my friend and I both get the open source client running and make it connect to the server I have running and we log into our accounts where we each have 10k virtual monies in our cashiers to start off with. Now we play the match and it works just as youd expect this software to work, most of it happens server side and the client just does what the client should. At the end of the match I've lost 8k to my friend and say gg and decide to quit bc im a fish. We check our balances using the cashier button on the client to confirm the final tally and I send him what I owe him over full tilt transfer or bank wire or I.O.U note or food stamps or whatever else we agreed on. Then later on I import the HHs from the match into HEM to review them because the awesome opensource software also recorded all the HHs on my computer in the standard HEM format. why not play play money on PS?

no HU tables. Show me a site with play money HU PLO or HU anything for that matter, and I will be happy On ps try to start a play money table 2handed and it will insta fill up with a constant flow of play moneyers

On December 16 2010 10:19 Ket wrote: Show nested quote + On December 16 2010 09:31 Steal City wrote:   On December 16 2010 08:20 Ket wrote: I think it's pretty amazing the effort genjix, jchysk and others involved seem to be putting into something like this for alturistic goals and ideals. Having been a poker player as long as I have, it's almost unheard of to me for there to be people out there putting time and effort into something for reasons other than chasing personal gain. Even if you don't think it's going to work or question the ideals they're motivated by (that poker sites are charging too much at lowstakes etc) you still have to admit it's v admirable there are people doing this. Quick question, is Bitcoin the only form of handling money/keeping score being considered at this stage? One way I would like to use an open source poker server + client software if it existed would be to set up private 'home' games with players I trust, where funds transfer between losers and winners would be handled by the players themselves afterwards, say by full tilt transfer or something. The way I imagine it would go something like, I challenge my friend to a rake-free $5/10 HU 4tabling grudge/sparring match. I get the open source poker server running and use the server admin panel to create two user accounts on the server, one for me and one for my friend. I use the admin panel to set the cashier balances of both our accounts to 10k virtual monies. Somehow there's full transparency of server admin actions like making accounts and manually changing balances so that any user logged into a user account can see a list of all admin actions to see nothing shady is going on etc. Now my friend and I both get the open source client running and make it connect to the server I have running and we log into our accounts where we each have 10k virtual monies in our cashiers to start off with. Now we play the match and it works just as youd expect this software to work, most of it happens server side and the client just does what the client should. At the end of the match I've lost 8k to my friend and say gg and decide to quit bc im a fish. We check our balances using the cashier button on the client to confirm the final tally and I send him what I owe him over full tilt transfer or bank wire or I.O.U note or food stamps or whatever else we agreed on. Then later on I import the HHs from the match into HEM to review them because the awesome opensource software also recorded all the HHs on my computer in the standard HEM format. why not play play money on PS? no HU tables. Show me a site with play money HU PLO or HU anything for that matter, and I will be happy On ps try to start a play money table 2handed and it will insta fill up with a constant flow of play moneyers

Quality poster.

There are about 50 NLHU Play money tables that I'm looking at right now, they have been there for years.

No Omaha HU's sadly, maybe we should start mass pm-ing PokerStars as I would love to be able to homegame my family member rake free in Omaha.