KK pf weird situation - Page 3

I dont think its a fistpump shove by any means but the other alternatives seem pretty bad for reasons mentioned above.

On March 04 2009 17:21 DooMeR wrote: Show nested quote + On March 04 2009 16:54 n0rthf4ce wrote: what do either opponent think you do here w/ AA/AK/QQ? QQ and AK are most important. what immediate history do you have with either opponent? how about the opponents with each other? these are the most important factors when considering whether to raise small/minraise, shove, or call. in the instance where folding is the best option vs these opponents you are certainly not playing poker optimally. as much as i like ur posts. this doesn't answer the question for this hand, essentially what you are saying is that "if you were a better, more aggro player, or had a crazier image u should never fold, but you dont". if joe was a better, more aggro player he wouldn't be asking a bunch of 1-2ptbb, standerd players(for the most part), their opinions in the first place. And if he had a crazier image he wouldn't need to ask anyway, because he'd already know what to do. I'll also add, most people have this inability to evaluate and analyze a hand properly. they dont evaluate the potential metagame or image of the person, ASKING the question. Let alone, the other player's opinion of that person. Instead they decide "what would i do with my image" and i know a lot of you guys are above average intellegence and are good players. But quite simply, doing this is pretty dumb and useless, and a waste of your own time and joe's. i guess i sound kinda like a douche atm cuz im not really above most of you in skill and some of you are quite a deal better than me. But im not talking about skill, im talking about THINKING of how to evaluate hands in order to give advice.

that makes the hand even easier then doesn't it? if our opponents don't care about how we would play certain hands but only about their own image and how we perceive them, then they are never folding AK or QQ because they're thinking "shit, can't fold this im so laggy" regardless of action (especially the 4bettor, hes gonna think "well if i 4bet i can't fold now". with our opponents thinking along these lines shoving is best as raszi said.

also, i enjoy the constructive criticism as this is a discussion forum and u dont sound like an arrogant douche, u dickhead.

On March 05 2009 04:35 EvilSky wrote: I dont think its a fistpump shove by any means but the other alternatives seem pretty bad for reasons mentioned above.

No-one really gave any reasons.

If you say it's 'standard shove' without any real arguments to back it up (like assigning ranges, stoving, calculating how often they have to fold etc.) then you're being close-minded. Either that or this spot is indeed incredibly standard and Joe is making a fool of himself, but I don't think he is. But if it is standard then just take 10 minutes and guide us through.

There are 2 main reasons why I don't think this is a 'standard get it in' situation:
1. Nebuchads 4bet sizing with these stack sizes. With AK,QQ I think he would be more likely to pump it up more. Unless his plan is to see what Joe does before commiting himself (so most likely folding AK,QQ to Joe's raise). JJ- he calls at best. Sometimes he bluffs this way.
2. While Gul-Britts range for 3betting Joe is certainly fairly wide for him to give action to Joe's 5bet w/ worse than KK the game would have to be crazy or he would have to be pretty bad.

If Joe's raise here would get action from worse than KK I wouldn't be SHOCKED, but I would be pretty surprised. So by raising to me, you're hoping they fold their hands enough of the time to make it profitable. I don't feel like calculating exactly how often that needs to happen, but I think a fairly accurate guess would be more than 2/3 of the time. Does that make it a standard raise/shove? Might be good, but definitely not standard.

On March 04 2009 16:54 n0rthf4ce wrote: what do either opponent think you do here w/ AA/AK/QQ? QQ and AK are most important. what immediate history do you have with either opponent? how about the opponents with each other? these are the most important factors when considering whether to raise small/minraise, shove, or call. in the instance where folding is the best option vs these opponents you are certainly not playing poker optimally.

As for Nebuchad - this was the 1st time I played with him and he hadnt been a regular in these games, he probably only started playing here after Ladbrokes joined microgaming. That means, I dont know him and neither does he know me or my play style. The same is probably true for Gul-Britt and Nebuchad too. Right at that time I had him on 2 of my tables, had about 70 hands on him and had him running like 38/33 or something (dont remember exactly I think I stated it in the first post though).
I think his range here is QQ+ and AK or a semibluff type of hand. The size of the raise being so small makes me think AK is somewhat less likely and QQ probably too. If I push allin, I think he might put me on AK and QQ+ range, but will probably think that my range leans towards KK+. I think he will maybe call with QQ and folds everything else, possibly calls with AKs. But like I said, I think both these combinations are somewhat less likely due to the size of the raise. If I make a smallish raise though, I think he can be more tempted to make a call with his semibluff type of hand thinking he might even have odds (which he probably wont have, but many people dont make the math right) or simply hoping that in case he manages to suckout, he will put me on tilt or simply hating to fold, because most LAG players do

As for Gul-Britt - I didnt have interesting immediate history with this guy, but I kind of knew his playstyle already and he knew mine. I dont think we played any allin preflop when deep against each other as far as I remember though, so it only comes down to guessing from what do I and him typically expect from a similar kind of opponent. I think that vs. this guy if I push or make a smallish raise, he will put me on the very same range, which is probably gonna be KK+ most likely with a small chance of QQ and AK. I am pretty sure he wont call me with AK and I would be surprised if he called me with QQ, when I push. When I make a small raise, then I give him the chance to ship it in over my raise, but I dont really see him doing it with QQ or AK, eventhough I cant be sure here and thats basically the only thing that I mind about the small raise.

STFU ALREADY JESUS ALLIN RETARD

rofl life tilt

On March 05 2009 04:45 n0rthf4ce wrote: Show nested quote + On March 04 2009 17:21 DooMeR wrote:   On March 04 2009 16:54 n0rthf4ce wrote: what do either opponent think you do here w/ AA/AK/QQ? QQ and AK are most important. what immediate history do you have with either opponent? how about the opponents with each other? these are the most important factors when considering whether to raise small/minraise, shove, or call. in the instance where folding is the best option vs these opponents you are certainly not playing poker optimally. as much as i like ur posts. this doesn't answer the question for this hand, essentially what you are saying is that "if you were a better, more aggro player, or had a crazier image u should never fold, but you dont". if joe was a better, more aggro player he wouldn't be asking a bunch of 1-2ptbb, standerd players(for the most part), their opinions in the first place. And if he had a crazier image he wouldn't need to ask anyway, because he'd already know what to do. I'll also add, most people have this inability to evaluate and analyze a hand properly. they dont evaluate the potential metagame or image of the person, ASKING the question. Let alone, the other player's opinion of that person. Instead they decide "what would i do with my image" and i know a lot of you guys are above average intellegence and are good players. But quite simply, doing this is pretty dumb and useless, and a waste of your own time and joe's. i guess i sound kinda like a douche atm cuz im not really above most of you in skill and some of you are quite a deal better than me. But im not talking about skill, im talking about THINKING of how to evaluate hands in order to give advice. that makes the hand even easier then doesn't it? if our opponents don't care about how we would play certain hands but only about their own image and how we perceive them, then they are never folding AK or QQ because they're thinking "shit, can't fold this im so laggy" regardless of action (especially the 4bettor, hes gonna think "well if i 4bet i can't fold now". with our opponents thinking along these lines shoving is best as raszi said.

thats not what i meant at all.

basically what i meant is that when people hop on and try to give advice, they always pretend THEY are the ones in the hand. which duh i realize how that is natural. but you have to assume u have joe's image and his all around game as ur own.

In other words. if joe folds to 3bets like 90% of the time u have to asusme u fold to 3bets 90% of the time and that villan views u like that. Basically what i mean is every flaw in heros game, and every difference in style must be taken into account.

lot of menstruation going on in this thread

didn't know there were so many sissy girls on LP

i love the high stakes forum rofl.

is this thread really 3 pages long?

you have KK vs a swede, ship it and fist pump

look, a manner cookie!

RHINO life

stop fishing in LA

allll in

Is Nebuchad the guy with the pink care bear avatar on stars?