KK pf weird situation - Page 2

I also realise that I'm gonna be probably mostly alone with this. I don't mind. But if you take time to really think this through I think most people would agree with me.

God such a snap shove jeez. Most of the time KK is ahead here ez. I dont understand threads with KK in cash games preflop.

I'd like to find a way to get it in vs nebu and get away vs gul-britt, but it's hard. Not that I'd like to fold here, but I dunno. I guess I end up getting it in.

Well, in the end I ended up shoving and they both folded, which was a fine result imo. But when rethinking the hand after the session, I think it wasnt the optimal way of playing it, because I believe I let them both play their hands very close to perfectly.

I think that my ideal play was to reraise again very smallish, to something like 764 total. I think Gul-Britt would still be able to play his hand almost perfectly (which on the other hand puts me into a sick spot where I maybe have to fold if he pushes), but I also think that Nebuchad can actually make a mistake of calling preflop with a semibluff type of hand hoping to suckout when the odds look good (but of course they are not).


And RaSZi, yea well I didnt realise at first how many more hands you play than me, but still I am surprised that you have been in a situation like this (stacks, raise sizes, similar opponents, ...) so many times before. Well anyways, I havent.

so at least half the time u get dealt KK, ur UTG, open and someone 3 bets and somone open 4 bets, and ur 180BBs deep

interesting

Joe, imo this is an easy shove unless the open 4 bettor is the sickest nit ever, but i do think you often get too much heat for shit :-/

RaSZi, you are generalizing the situation too much imo. Of course raise, reraise and rereraise happen quite often, but they dont happen quite that often utg vs btn vs bb and with 180, 180 and 130 big blinds stacks. I think the situation has only a little in common with a situation where I open from the CO, get 3bet by BTN and BB 4bets or with a situation where we all have 100bb.

And for you people saying this is an easy shove, can someone of you do a proper math calculation that supports it? Do it in comparison to my propsal of small reraise. I am quite interested to see the ranges you will give the players. Like I said, I pushed it in the hand, but I dont consider it optimal eventhough +EV.

On March 02 2009 17:59 RaSZi wrote: wether or not you get KK is irrelevant steal city. What I mean is open 3b, cold 4b, the fact that it happens a lot when you have other hands than KK makes this so easy. So your post is basically nonsense.

this is 2009 gentlemen, cold 4-bet does not mean AA anymore, I'm amazed the thread made it this far

so if you don't think shoving is the most optimal/+EV play here Joe, what other line would you take? considering that if u flat the 4bet, the 3bet player would call with good odds to stack you if he hits a set. Or the question here is not abount calling, but to decide between fold and shove?

a bit off the topic but what does that guy say in the video coz i dont really hear everything clear

On March 03 2009 11:52 sTrAtO wrote: so if you don't think shoving is the most optimal/+EV play here Joe, what other line would you take? considering that if u flat the 4bet, the 3bet player would call with good odds to stack you if he hits a set. Or the question here is not abount calling, but to decide between fold and shove?

I already stated what I believe is the optimal play and gave a few arguments for it, read above. (Its very small raise to something like 764.)

RaSZi,

Let me ask you this - what kind of range do you put Nebuchad on and what kind of hands do you expect to get action from when you shove?

RaSZi, how about you provide an argumentation for you opinion (ideally mathematical one) instead of bullshit comments that have no real value? Arguments like "omg u have KK snap ship" etc. are meaningless. I am trying to generate a bit of a discussion here, maybe its not the greatest hand but apparently there is something to discuss as long as you think push pf is the best and I think small raise preflop is the best, at least untill someone gives enough arguments to make it obvious which is better. It may well be so that it differs to different playing styles. I am obviously mainly interested in how to solve this hand with a play style similar to mine (which is basically standard 20/17 tag or something preflop).

I am a little sad that as of lately only very few people here at lp actually want to seriously discuss poker situations. It seems to me like most of you are either too lazy to think or just dont want to give anything out anymore. I admit that from time to time I post a hand where I am too result oriented and should not be posting it, but this is definately not the case. And if this situation is not worth a discussion for you, it is for me.

On March 03 2009 19:59 Joe wrote: I am a little sad that as of lately only very few people here at lp actually want to seriously discuss poker situations. It seems to me like most of you are either too lazy to think or just dont want to give anything out anymore. I admit that from time to time I post a hand where I am too result oriented and should not be posting it, but this is definately not the case. And if this situation is not worth a discussion for you, it is for me.

Why do you think I stopped posting?

what do either opponent think you do here w/ AA/AK/QQ? QQ and AK are most important.
what immediate history do you have with either opponent? how about the opponents with each other?

these are the most important factors when considering whether to raise small/minraise, shove, or call.
in the instance where folding is the best option vs these opponents you are certainly not playing poker optimally.

On March 04 2009 16:54 n0rthf4ce wrote: what do either opponent think you do here w/ AA/AK/QQ? QQ and AK are most important. what immediate history do you have with either opponent? how about the opponents with each other? these are the most important factors when considering whether to raise small/minraise, shove, or call. in the instance where folding is the best option vs these opponents you are certainly not playing poker optimally.

as much as i like ur posts.

this doesn't answer the question for this hand, essentially what you are saying is that "if you were a better, more aggro player, or had a crazier image u should never fold, but you dont". if joe was a better, more aggro player he wouldn't be asking a bunch of 1-2ptbb, standerd players(for the most part), their opinions in the first place. And if he had a crazier image he wouldn't need to ask anyway, because he'd already know what to do.

I'll also add, most people have this inability to evaluate and analyze a hand properly. they dont evaluate the potential metagame or image of the person, ASKING the question. Let alone, the other player's opinion of that person. Instead they decide "what would i do with my image" and i know a lot of you guys are above average intellegence and are good players. But quite simply, doing this is pretty dumb and useless, and a waste of your own time and joe's. i guess i sound kinda like a douche atm cuz im not really above most of you in skill and some of you are quite a deal better than me. But im not talking about skill, im talking about THINKING of how to evaluate hands in order to give advice.

On March 04 2009 16:54 n0rthf4ce wrote: what do either opponent think you do here w/ AA/AK/QQ? QQ and AK are most important. what immediate history do you have with either opponent? how about the opponents with each other? these are the most important factors when considering whether to raise small/minraise, shove, or call. in the instance where folding is the best option vs these opponents you are certainly not playing poker optimally.

he never considered folding here, lol

On March 04 2009 16:54 n0rthf4ce wrote: awwwww innnn!

the reason you can't get a serious discussion here is because everyone playing 1020 generally plays in such a manner where this spot isn't a descion, it's just a question of how do we get the money in

On March 04 2009 17:41 Patrocle wrote: Show nested quote + On March 04 2009 16:54 n0rthf4ce wrote: what do either opponent think you do here w/ AA/AK/QQ? QQ and AK are most important. what immediate history do you have with either opponent? how about the opponents with each other? these are the most important factors when considering whether to raise small/minraise, shove, or call. in the instance where folding is the best option vs these opponents you are certainly not playing poker optimally. he never considered folding here, lol

im sure he did