KK pf weird situation

Submitted by : Joe

** Hand # 2449421781 starting - 2009-02-27 15:36:23
** Bravery Of Being 2 [Hold 'em] (10.00|20.00 NL - Cash Game) Real Money
Nebuchad sitting in seat 1 with €2603.00
Joeik4 sitting in seat 2 with €3617.00
Samuel123 sitting in seat 3 with €2047.00
Fox-Fox sitting in seat 4 with €6075.50
Gul-Britt sitting in seat 5 with €3675.00[Dealer]
danneville sitting in seat 6 with €5918.00
danneville posted the small blind - €10.00
Nebuchad posted the big blind - €20.00

Holecards
   
Joeik4 raised to €65.00
Samuel123 folded
Fox-Fox folded
Gul-Britt raised to €220.00
danneville folded
Nebuchad raised to €464.00
Joeik4 ?

I made a bit of googling and it seems that Nebuchad is a known swedish pro with a very aggro style.
http://poker.ladbrokes.com/en/community/team-ladbrokes/nebuchad

Sucks that you're deep but I don't think you can fold like ever.

i reraise 987
because nebuchad have shit and fuck that if hes lucky enought to have AA here
about the other guy i dont care either i hve kings
KINGSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

I don't know if I like to get it in vs Gul-britt with joe's image. I'd probably instaship but I dunno if he'll stack off deep vs what he feels is a nit/tight player with like QQ.

waiting for talentedtom to post......

On February 27 2009 09:43 SpasticInk wrote:

This guy is fuckin brilliant.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOL

he wears big sunglasses and tries to stay away from crowds at live tournaments now because of that comment lol

lo

lol that guy is fucking dumb

gotta fix the jew problem somehow

Shove all-in if Gul-Britt is a Jew.

meh 180bb with vs button and bb...

just re-pop and get it in.

hahaha now i know the secret to running goot.

High Stakes Online Poker Results

(Ladbrokes, All Gametypes, 2007-01-01 to 2009-02-27)

Winners Results Sessions Hands Hours
Nebuchad $940.547,35 509 117779 628,93

RaSZi, you probably define 'standard' differently than I do. I wasnt in a same or a very similar situation many times before and tbh I would be very surprised if you found 20+ very similar spots like this one in your database.

even tomson and raszi are saying allin... it has to be a shove just cuz of that

On March 01 2009 16:27 Jamie217 wrote: even tomson and raszi are saying allin... it has to be a shove just cuz of that

I only said it's an all-in if Gul-Britt is a Jew and Nebuchad is making the 'hate raise'.

The very small 4bet with these stacks by Nebuchad to me is indicative of a heavily polarised range (KK+ or bluff). I don't think he's cold 4betting OOP a 3bet against your UTG open from 220EUR to a measily 464EUR w/ QQ or AK with over 2,1k behind (he would be very concerned about getting a flat call). I would be VERY surprised if he was.

So the main question is - how often is he bluffing this way? If not often at all or close to never then it's a easy fold. When you shove and they fold you win 759 EUR, but if you get called it's gonna be KK+ and then you lose about 1,8k EUR when it's Gul-Britt holding KK+ or about 1,4k EUR when it's Nebuchad with the KK+. They also might have AA and KK at the same time which is gonna suck even more for you. So unless you expect to take it down more than 3/4 of the time without showdown you can't shove.

Can you call? If Gul-Britt shoves you probably have to call. I don't know if that's good or not - depends if he's gonna go crazy with AK or QQ. If you go to the flop I guess I could come up with an optimal route, but it would take 5 minutes and I don't feel like doing it right now. Intuitively though this sounds like a fold.

'But tomson, if you're folding KK isn't that extremely exploitable?' some of you might say. Well, from our (UTG) perspective it might, but it won't be that profitable for Nebuchad to bluff here. He's cold 4betting a 3bet of an UTG open and, what's VERY important here - he's giving insane odds for the 3better to call in position with a lot of money behind. Bluffing is very good against us, but isn't very good for him.

I also realise that I'm gonna be probably mostly alone with this. I don't mind. But if you take time to really think this through I think most people would agree with me.

God such a snap shove jeez. Most of the time KK is ahead here ez. I dont understand threads with KK in cash games preflop.

I'd like to find a way to get it in vs nebu and get away vs gul-britt, but it's hard. Not that I'd like to fold here, but I dunno. I guess I end up getting it in.

Well, in the end I ended up shoving and they both folded, which was a fine result imo. But when rethinking the hand after the session, I think it wasnt the optimal way of playing it, because I believe I let them both play their hands very close to perfectly.

I think that my ideal play was to reraise again very smallish, to something like 764 total. I think Gul-Britt would still be able to play his hand almost perfectly (which on the other hand puts me into a sick spot where I maybe have to fold if he pushes), but I also think that Nebuchad can actually make a mistake of calling preflop with a semibluff type of hand hoping to suckout when the odds look good (but of course they are not).


And RaSZi, yea well I didnt realise at first how many more hands you play than me, but still I am surprised that you have been in a situation like this (stacks, raise sizes, similar opponents, ...) so many times before. Well anyways, I havent.

so at least half the time u get dealt KK, ur UTG, open and someone 3 bets and somone open 4 bets, and ur 180BBs deep

interesting

Joe, imo this is an easy shove unless the open 4 bettor is the sickest nit ever, but i do think you often get too much heat for shit :-/

RaSZi, you are generalizing the situation too much imo. Of course raise, reraise and rereraise happen quite often, but they dont happen quite that often utg vs btn vs bb and with 180, 180 and 130 big blinds stacks. I think the situation has only a little in common with a situation where I open from the CO, get 3bet by BTN and BB 4bets or with a situation where we all have 100bb.

And for you people saying this is an easy shove, can someone of you do a proper math calculation that supports it? Do it in comparison to my propsal of small reraise. I am quite interested to see the ranges you will give the players. Like I said, I pushed it in the hand, but I dont consider it optimal eventhough +EV.

On March 02 2009 17:59 RaSZi wrote: wether or not you get KK is irrelevant steal city. What I mean is open 3b, cold 4b, the fact that it happens a lot when you have other hands than KK makes this so easy. So your post is basically nonsense.

this is 2009 gentlemen, cold 4-bet does not mean AA anymore, I'm amazed the thread made it this far

so if you don't think shoving is the most optimal/+EV play here Joe, what other line would you take? considering that if u flat the 4bet, the 3bet player would call with good odds to stack you if he hits a set. Or the question here is not abount calling, but to decide between fold and shove?

a bit off the topic but what does that guy say in the video coz i dont really hear everything clear

On March 03 2009 11:52 sTrAtO wrote: so if you don't think shoving is the most optimal/+EV play here Joe, what other line would you take? considering that if u flat the 4bet, the 3bet player would call with good odds to stack you if he hits a set. Or the question here is not abount calling, but to decide between fold and shove?

I already stated what I believe is the optimal play and gave a few arguments for it, read above. (Its very small raise to something like 764.)

RaSZi,

Let me ask you this - what kind of range do you put Nebuchad on and what kind of hands do you expect to get action from when you shove?

RaSZi, how about you provide an argumentation for you opinion (ideally mathematical one) instead of bullshit comments that have no real value? Arguments like "omg u have KK snap ship" etc. are meaningless. I am trying to generate a bit of a discussion here, maybe its not the greatest hand but apparently there is something to discuss as long as you think push pf is the best and I think small raise preflop is the best, at least untill someone gives enough arguments to make it obvious which is better. It may well be so that it differs to different playing styles. I am obviously mainly interested in how to solve this hand with a play style similar to mine (which is basically standard 20/17 tag or something preflop).

I am a little sad that as of lately only very few people here at lp actually want to seriously discuss poker situations. It seems to me like most of you are either too lazy to think or just dont want to give anything out anymore. I admit that from time to time I post a hand where I am too result oriented and should not be posting it, but this is definately not the case. And if this situation is not worth a discussion for you, it is for me.

On March 03 2009 19:59 Joe wrote: I am a little sad that as of lately only very few people here at lp actually want to seriously discuss poker situations. It seems to me like most of you are either too lazy to think or just dont want to give anything out anymore. I admit that from time to time I post a hand where I am too result oriented and should not be posting it, but this is definately not the case. And if this situation is not worth a discussion for you, it is for me.

Why do you think I stopped posting?

what do either opponent think you do here w/ AA/AK/QQ? QQ and AK are most important.
what immediate history do you have with either opponent? how about the opponents with each other?

these are the most important factors when considering whether to raise small/minraise, shove, or call.
in the instance where folding is the best option vs these opponents you are certainly not playing poker optimally.

On March 04 2009 16:54 n0rthf4ce wrote: what do either opponent think you do here w/ AA/AK/QQ? QQ and AK are most important. what immediate history do you have with either opponent? how about the opponents with each other? these are the most important factors when considering whether to raise small/minraise, shove, or call. in the instance where folding is the best option vs these opponents you are certainly not playing poker optimally.

as much as i like ur posts.

this doesn't answer the question for this hand, essentially what you are saying is that "if you were a better, more aggro player, or had a crazier image u should never fold, but you dont". if joe was a better, more aggro player he wouldn't be asking a bunch of 1-2ptbb, standerd players(for the most part), their opinions in the first place. And if he had a crazier image he wouldn't need to ask anyway, because he'd already know what to do.

I'll also add, most people have this inability to evaluate and analyze a hand properly. they dont evaluate the potential metagame or image of the person, ASKING the question. Let alone, the other player's opinion of that person. Instead they decide "what would i do with my image" and i know a lot of you guys are above average intellegence and are good players. But quite simply, doing this is pretty dumb and useless, and a waste of your own time and joe's. i guess i sound kinda like a douche atm cuz im not really above most of you in skill and some of you are quite a deal better than me. But im not talking about skill, im talking about THINKING of how to evaluate hands in order to give advice.

On March 04 2009 16:54 n0rthf4ce wrote: what do either opponent think you do here w/ AA/AK/QQ? QQ and AK are most important. what immediate history do you have with either opponent? how about the opponents with each other? these are the most important factors when considering whether to raise small/minraise, shove, or call. in the instance where folding is the best option vs these opponents you are certainly not playing poker optimally.

he never considered folding here, lol

On March 04 2009 16:54 n0rthf4ce wrote: awwwww innnn!

the reason you can't get a serious discussion here is because everyone playing 1020 generally plays in such a manner where this spot isn't a descion, it's just a question of how do we get the money in

On March 04 2009 17:41 Patrocle wrote: Show nested quote + On March 04 2009 16:54 n0rthf4ce wrote: what do either opponent think you do here w/ AA/AK/QQ? QQ and AK are most important. what immediate history do you have with either opponent? how about the opponents with each other? these are the most important factors when considering whether to raise small/minraise, shove, or call. in the instance where folding is the best option vs these opponents you are certainly not playing poker optimally. he never considered folding here, lol

im sure he did

I dont think its a fistpump shove by any means but the other alternatives seem pretty bad for reasons mentioned above.

On March 04 2009 17:21 DooMeR wrote: Show nested quote + On March 04 2009 16:54 n0rthf4ce wrote: what do either opponent think you do here w/ AA/AK/QQ? QQ and AK are most important. what immediate history do you have with either opponent? how about the opponents with each other? these are the most important factors when considering whether to raise small/minraise, shove, or call. in the instance where folding is the best option vs these opponents you are certainly not playing poker optimally. as much as i like ur posts. this doesn't answer the question for this hand, essentially what you are saying is that "if you were a better, more aggro player, or had a crazier image u should never fold, but you dont". if joe was a better, more aggro player he wouldn't be asking a bunch of 1-2ptbb, standerd players(for the most part), their opinions in the first place. And if he had a crazier image he wouldn't need to ask anyway, because he'd already know what to do. I'll also add, most people have this inability to evaluate and analyze a hand properly. they dont evaluate the potential metagame or image of the person, ASKING the question. Let alone, the other player's opinion of that person. Instead they decide "what would i do with my image" and i know a lot of you guys are above average intellegence and are good players. But quite simply, doing this is pretty dumb and useless, and a waste of your own time and joe's. i guess i sound kinda like a douche atm cuz im not really above most of you in skill and some of you are quite a deal better than me. But im not talking about skill, im talking about THINKING of how to evaluate hands in order to give advice.

that makes the hand even easier then doesn't it? if our opponents don't care about how we would play certain hands but only about their own image and how we perceive them, then they are never folding AK or QQ because they're thinking "shit, can't fold this im so laggy" regardless of action (especially the 4bettor, hes gonna think "well if i 4bet i can't fold now". with our opponents thinking along these lines shoving is best as raszi said.

also, i enjoy the constructive criticism as this is a discussion forum and u dont sound like an arrogant douche, u dickhead.

On March 05 2009 04:35 EvilSky wrote: I dont think its a fistpump shove by any means but the other alternatives seem pretty bad for reasons mentioned above.

No-one really gave any reasons.

If you say it's 'standard shove' without any real arguments to back it up (like assigning ranges, stoving, calculating how often they have to fold etc.) then you're being close-minded. Either that or this spot is indeed incredibly standard and Joe is making a fool of himself, but I don't think he is. But if it is standard then just take 10 minutes and guide us through.

There are 2 main reasons why I don't think this is a 'standard get it in' situation:
1. Nebuchads 4bet sizing with these stack sizes. With AK,QQ I think he would be more likely to pump it up more. Unless his plan is to see what Joe does before commiting himself (so most likely folding AK,QQ to Joe's raise). JJ- he calls at best. Sometimes he bluffs this way.
2. While Gul-Britts range for 3betting Joe is certainly fairly wide for him to give action to Joe's 5bet w/ worse than KK the game would have to be crazy or he would have to be pretty bad.

If Joe's raise here would get action from worse than KK I wouldn't be SHOCKED, but I would be pretty surprised. So by raising to me, you're hoping they fold their hands enough of the time to make it profitable. I don't feel like calculating exactly how often that needs to happen, but I think a fairly accurate guess would be more than 2/3 of the time. Does that make it a standard raise/shove? Might be good, but definitely not standard.

On March 04 2009 16:54 n0rthf4ce wrote: what do either opponent think you do here w/ AA/AK/QQ? QQ and AK are most important. what immediate history do you have with either opponent? how about the opponents with each other? these are the most important factors when considering whether to raise small/minraise, shove, or call. in the instance where folding is the best option vs these opponents you are certainly not playing poker optimally.

As for Nebuchad - this was the 1st time I played with him and he hadnt been a regular in these games, he probably only started playing here after Ladbrokes joined microgaming. That means, I dont know him and neither does he know me or my play style. The same is probably true for Gul-Britt and Nebuchad too. Right at that time I had him on 2 of my tables, had about 70 hands on him and had him running like 38/33 or something (dont remember exactly I think I stated it in the first post though).
I think his range here is QQ+ and AK or a semibluff type of hand. The size of the raise being so small makes me think AK is somewhat less likely and QQ probably too. If I push allin, I think he might put me on AK and QQ+ range, but will probably think that my range leans towards KK+. I think he will maybe call with QQ and folds everything else, possibly calls with AKs. But like I said, I think both these combinations are somewhat less likely due to the size of the raise. If I make a smallish raise though, I think he can be more tempted to make a call with his semibluff type of hand thinking he might even have odds (which he probably wont have, but many people dont make the math right) or simply hoping that in case he manages to suckout, he will put me on tilt or simply hating to fold, because most LAG players do

As for Gul-Britt - I didnt have interesting immediate history with this guy, but I kind of knew his playstyle already and he knew mine. I dont think we played any allin preflop when deep against each other as far as I remember though, so it only comes down to guessing from what do I and him typically expect from a similar kind of opponent. I think that vs. this guy if I push or make a smallish raise, he will put me on the very same range, which is probably gonna be KK+ most likely with a small chance of QQ and AK. I am pretty sure he wont call me with AK and I would be surprised if he called me with QQ, when I push. When I make a small raise, then I give him the chance to ship it in over my raise, but I dont really see him doing it with QQ or AK, eventhough I cant be sure here and thats basically the only thing that I mind about the small raise.

STFU ALREADY JESUS ALLIN RETARD

rofl life tilt

On March 05 2009 04:45 n0rthf4ce wrote: Show nested quote + On March 04 2009 17:21 DooMeR wrote:   On March 04 2009 16:54 n0rthf4ce wrote: what do either opponent think you do here w/ AA/AK/QQ? QQ and AK are most important. what immediate history do you have with either opponent? how about the opponents with each other? these are the most important factors when considering whether to raise small/minraise, shove, or call. in the instance where folding is the best option vs these opponents you are certainly not playing poker optimally. as much as i like ur posts. this doesn't answer the question for this hand, essentially what you are saying is that "if you were a better, more aggro player, or had a crazier image u should never fold, but you dont". if joe was a better, more aggro player he wouldn't be asking a bunch of 1-2ptbb, standerd players(for the most part), their opinions in the first place. And if he had a crazier image he wouldn't need to ask anyway, because he'd already know what to do. I'll also add, most people have this inability to evaluate and analyze a hand properly. they dont evaluate the potential metagame or image of the person, ASKING the question. Let alone, the other player's opinion of that person. Instead they decide "what would i do with my image" and i know a lot of you guys are above average intellegence and are good players. But quite simply, doing this is pretty dumb and useless, and a waste of your own time and joe's. i guess i sound kinda like a douche atm cuz im not really above most of you in skill and some of you are quite a deal better than me. But im not talking about skill, im talking about THINKING of how to evaluate hands in order to give advice. that makes the hand even easier then doesn't it? if our opponents don't care about how we would play certain hands but only about their own image and how we perceive them, then they are never folding AK or QQ because they're thinking "shit, can't fold this im so laggy" regardless of action (especially the 4bettor, hes gonna think "well if i 4bet i can't fold now". with our opponents thinking along these lines shoving is best as raszi said.

thats not what i meant at all.

basically what i meant is that when people hop on and try to give advice, they always pretend THEY are the ones in the hand. which duh i realize how that is natural. but you have to assume u have joe's image and his all around game as ur own.

In other words. if joe folds to 3bets like 90% of the time u have to asusme u fold to 3bets 90% of the time and that villan views u like that. Basically what i mean is every flaw in heros game, and every difference in style must be taken into account.

lot of menstruation going on in this thread

didn't know there were so many sissy girls on LP

i love the high stakes forum rofl.

is this thread really 3 pages long?

you have KK vs a swede, ship it and fist pump

look, a manner cookie!

RHINO life

stop fishing in LA

allll in

Is Nebuchad the guy with the pink care bear avatar on stars?