KQ vs boostedJ

Submitted by : n0rthf4ce

PokerStars Game #8066807277: Hold'em No Limit ($25/$50) - 2007/01/22 - 10:38:59 (ET)
Table 'Erfordia' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 2: Hold_emNL ($6224.70 in chips)
Seat 3: Vaga_Lion ($4200 in chips)
Seat 4: Empire2000 ($8562.30 in chips)
Seat 5: p3achy_keen ($15774.30 in chips)
Seat 6: hotmark777 ($18219.20 in chips)
Seat 7: socutiesf ($1000 in chips)
Seat 9: Boosted J ($4925 in chips)
hotmark777: posts small blind $25
socutiesf: posts big blind $50

Holecards
Dealt to p3achy_keen
Boosted J: raises $150 to $200
Hold_emNL: folds
Vaga_Lion: folds
Empire2000: calls $200
p3achy_keen: calls $200
hotmark777: calls $175
socutiesf: calls $150

Flop (Pot : $1000)

   
hotmark777: checks
socutiesf: checks
Boosted J: checks
Empire2000: checks
p3achy_keen: bets $550
hotmark777: folds
socutiesf: folds
Boosted J: raises $4175 to $4725 and is all-in
Empire2000: folds
p3achy_keen said, "um"
p3achy_keen: calls $4175

Turn (Pot : $10450)

   

River (Pot : $10450)

   

Showdown
Boosted J: shows (a full house, Fours full of Jacks)
p3achy_keen: mucks hand
Boosted J collected $10447 from pot

Summary
Total pot $10450 | Rake $3
Board  
Seat 2: Hold_emNL folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Vaga_Lion folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Empire2000 folded on the Flop
Seat 5: p3achy_keen (button) mucked
Seat 6: hotmark777 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: socutiesf (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: Boosted J showed and won ($10447) with a full house, Fours full of Jacks

nice game selection..? ;x

will not dignify with response

well
at best your flipping and id say that seems possible but unlikely...

On January 22 2007 07:56 PoorUser wrote: well at best your flipping and id say that seems possible but unlikely...

u dont think hes leading here w/ set/combodraw?

probably but its even more unlikely to the 10th degree that hes going to bluff you when your betting out on a 5 way raised pot like this. i dont know does this not seem like the most slam dunk fold in the world. i guess i cant explain it because it seems so simple

is kq like the worst hand you bet on this flop probably i guess

imo it really looks like im stealing, and with only 1 person left to act (hotmark) i think he could easily push air here. my first instinct was to slamdunk fold because i was getting terrible potodds to be dominated/flipping. but after thinking it through, call seemed logical. brainfreeze? -_-

I'm with north here

on the flop, say you lead for 3/4 psb instead of 1/2 psb. does that make this an easier fold?

On January 22 2007 08:55 twotimesopt wrote: on the flop, say you lead for 3/4 psb instead of 1/2 psb. does that make this an easier fold?

sure does, but my intention was to make a stealish bet.

On January 22 2007 08:56 n0rthf4ce wrote: sure does, but my intention was to make a stealish bet.

Hmmmm, but that would imply you're trying to play KQo in a 5-way pot for stacks, right? I think in a 5-way pot your intention should never be to make your bet look stealish if you have a marginal holding. You simply do not want to be put up for the decision with a hand like this, however saying you try to make it look stealish implies the opposite.

Anyway I like some parts of your thought process such as your opponent being the preflop raiser checking on the flop which I think usually indeed does imply he won't have a set (5-way atleast). Your button bet which will look a bit fishy to him. However one thing you are definitely wrong on is Boosted ever having air here. He will never, ever have air. He might have checked his flush draw on the flop because he didn't want to be put allin by another person. When realizing button is betting stealish he could consider pushing KAs over the top. However it's also possible that he checks KK/AA because he doesn't want to play for stacks against 4 unknowns. However upon seeing the button trying to take this pot he pushes them over the top. Then there's also the possibility that he does have a set. Sets/KK/AA dominate you, flush draw you're a small winner. You have 550 invested and 4500 to call, you have to be right here a huge amount of the time which on full ring unfortunately I doubt you will be.

Another thing to consider is that I don't think anyone is 'stealing' this pot with a hand less than KQo (even with KQ I consider this a steal). Your bet is borderline, but still fine. However I will never see myself betting a flush draw, JQo or air in your position. Boosted isn't a bad player, he knows this. Even though the button might *look* like a steal, this is a 5-way pot, meaning it isn't a steal. You talked yourself into calling based on the thought that a bet from the button looks like you want to take this pot down which I think is ridiculous in a 5-way pot. 3-way I could live with that thought much more. Like I said the thought is good but you're not applying it correctly.

Hope that made some sense I just typed away.

thanks nazgul, that makes a LOT of sense :D.

Yea good post by nazgul
I agree with pretty much everything he says

someday i will be able to explain my thoughts concisely like you naz

I think your preflop call is bad, but u know I'm a nit.

On January 22 2007 11:34 NMcNasty wrote: I think your preflop call is bad, but u know I'm a nit.

NMcNitty

jk

On January 22 2007 08:16 n0rthf4ce wrote: imo it really looks like im stealing, and with only 1 person left to act (hotmark) i think he could easily push air here. my first instinct was to slamdunk fold because i was getting terrible potodds to be dominated/flipping. but after thinking it through, call seemed logical. brainfreeze? -_-

How does it look like you are stealing northface? You are probably regarded as a tight player and you bet half the pot when many people saw the flop. You'd even check a flush draw here. He knows that. So the only thing you can have is a pair+flushdraw combo draw or top pair or two pair and he knows his line looks purely like a draw.

Easy fold yo!

On January 22 2007 09:07 Nazgul wrote: I think in a 5-way pot your intention should never be to make your bet look stealish if you have a marginal holding.

Pardon the ignorance, but what would a non-stealish bet look like here?

750~800$

Preflop is really, really bad. KQ is a much worse hand then 23s here preflop. In a raised pot, unless the stacks are DEEP and the players are bad (not you think they are bad... you know they are bad over a serious sample size) you should be ditching everything except for AK and pocket pairs.

You know why all the old time players are nits? Because all the non nits have long since gone broke. Those are a few words of widsom from Tommy Angelo and it would do you good to listen.

Great post naz, spot on. Betting a hand like KQ here is just so bad. It really devalues your hand. I would rather bet here with air than TPGK. You got yourself in such a crappy spot. I know this is somewhat repetetive, sorry. I prefer checking to betting here all day.

fwiw, I think betting here is bad, period. Betting ~3/4 is better than 1/2 here, but I just think betting in general is bad,

- added because I saw alot of people saying to bet bigger rather than check.

I think this is the classic case of not giving a laggy action player enough respect, but at the moment can seem like a tough decision.

to clarify - there is absolutely nothing wrong with betting this flop

On January 23 2007 03:50 PoorUser wrote: to clarify - there is absolutely nothing wrong with betting this flop

Unless you happen to like money.

Why is betting the flop so bad? Well... here's why. First of all, your bet has no mustard behind it. If you're raised by any of the players in the hand you have to fold, or donk off all your cash quite quickly following a "go broke the first time you get top pair second kicker" strategy.

Second, your hand isn't very strong. You have top pair second kicker, which isn't exactly middle set. This hand does not hold up very well against 4 or 5 other players. You can say you want to protect your hand but the fact of the matter is, you don't have much of a hand to protect, which is why you should have folded preflop.

Worst of all, if you bet, an ace high flush draw can and often will with all the dead money raise you off the hand. So, the very hand you are protecting against, just wins the pot and your bet for your troubles.

In heads up or three way pots, top pair is a decent hand. In large multi way pots, it's for the fish and tourists.

so u give a freecard to 5 players instead?


who are u btw contradicting PoorUser o_oa

is he being serious?

no fucking way you check here, but past the shove I cant say much. Im a low stakes donk

its nice that you've read all of your sklansky books but in order to understand poker you have to actually play hands of it too to get a feel for it

BestZergOnEast You are a fucking idiot.

On January 23 2007 03:57 BestZergOnEast wrote: Show nested quote + On January 23 2007 03:50 PoorUser wrote: to clarify - there is absolutely nothing wrong with betting this flop Why is betting the flop so bad? First of all, If you're raised by any of the players in the hand you have to fold

so what. its not like you're playing with your cards face up, if you get raised its an ez fold.
a bet by the hero shows alot of strength, and sets will make up a big portion of hero's range in the eyes of the villain (cause hero is reraising AQ, AA, KK pf) . i dont think ace high flush draws are pushed here that often.

I think u can make an agrument for either folding or even reraising pf, but once you flat with this hand the best play is to bet it in this situation and hope everyone folds. if someone raises u generally have to fold, and if someone flats.. then i guess on the turn u generally check behind or fold to any bet. you might be able to call a bet on the river if turn goes c/c.

On January 24 2007 22:31 PoorUser wrote: its nice that you've read all of your sklansky books but in order to understand poker you have to actually play hands of it too to get a feel for it

lol

You know, it's condescending pricks like you, that make professional poker players like me, not want to post here. But... if you ever want to play heads up or anything, just let me know.

On January 23 2007 04:31 Baal wrote: so u give a freecard to 5 players instead? who are u btw contradicting PoorUser o_oa

Giving a free card implies you have a good but vulnerable hand. You have TRASH and you have trash because you should have folded preflop. KQ is a suckers hand; most of the time it's dominated, the rest of the time everyone folds. Even AQ is just going to cost you money in a large multiway pot unless you hit a monster.

On January 25 2007 01:47 BestZergOnEast wrote: Show nested quote + On January 24 2007 22:31 PoorUser wrote: its nice that you've read all of your sklansky books but in order to understand poker you have to actually play hands of it too to get a feel for it lol You know, it's condescending pricks like you, that make professional poker players like me, not want to post here. But... if you ever want to play heads up or anything, just let me know.

you sound like a condescending faggot

On January 25 2007 01:47 BestZergOnEast wrote: You know, it's condescending pricks like you, that make professional poker players like me, not want to post here.

no offense, but i don't think you would be missed based on the tone of your posts. their quality to me is also very questionable.

On January 25 2007 01:48 BestZergOnEast wrote: Show nested quote + On January 23 2007 04:31 Baal wrote: so u give a freecard to 5 players instead? who are u btw contradicting PoorUser o_oa Giving a free card implies you have a good but vulnerable hand. You have TRASH and you have trash because you should have folded preflop. KQ is a suckers hand; most of the time it's dominated, the rest of the time everyone folds. Even AQ is just going to cost you money in a large multiway pot unless you hit a monster.

how does checking behind in a 5 way draw heavy board imply you have any kind of hand at all? it doesnt..........
the whole purpose of this thread was to illustrate the point that northfaces range at worst can be KQ which is why betting has a reasonable, yet not large chance to take it down and if you dont take it down who cares. i believe it was sophacles that once said 'you gotta bring the pain'. we dont advocate weak tight poker here >:[

and yes i will play hu whenever. its not like starcraft where you challenge me and then disc when im raping you either

and it would have to be nl, not limit~

and holler baal --

On January 25 2007 01:47 BestZergOnEast wrote: Show nested quote + On January 24 2007 22:31 PoorUser wrote: its nice that you've read all of your sklansky books but in order to understand poker you have to actually play hands of it too to get a feel for it lol You know, it's condescending pricks like you, that make professional poker players like me, not want to post here. But... if you ever want to play heads up or anything, just let me know.

probably not the wisest decision to challenge PU to HU

bestzergoneast an ace high flush draw will almost never come over the top of a raise in a 5 way pot unless he has a pair to go along with it. AKss wont even do that here very often.

northface HAS to bet because if he checks he almost has to fold to a bet on the turn. id rather give myself a chance to win the pot, clarify my hand and get out if raised than anything else.

On January 25 2007 11:04 Daut wrote: bestzergoneast an ace high flush draw will almost never come over the top of a raise in a 5 way pot unless he has a pair to go along with it. AKss wont even do that here very often. northface HAS to bet because if he checks he almost has to fold to a bet on the turn. id rather give myself a chance to win the pot, clarify my hand and get out if raised than anything else.

A couple things before I go... it seems I'm not wanted here either; no big deal. I think anyone interested can read the posts I wrote and judge the quality of the advice I was giving; I doubt I would have stayed long anyway, 2+2 is my home for this sort of thing.

This is exactly the sort of spot an ace high draw will be willing to gamble in. There's alot of money in the pot, you have a decent range of hands (or should if you are any good and on the button betting out after everyone checks) and he has serious folding equity, the key for a semibluff. Note, an ace high flush draw is a slight favourite over your hand in question here, KQ. To say, blindly, that flush draws will almost never come over the top here is playing theory poker, not real poker, and you're just plain wrong. In high stakes no limit games, people make moves, and they probably make alot more than you think they do. The difference is, their timing and execution is alot better than the chumps at the 2/5 game.

As for "having" to bet a hand like a pair of queens with a king kicker in a 5 way pot... this is exactly the type of thinking that keeps chumps walking away broke and has the tourists muttering. One day, you'll realize poker isn't a war. It's a calm, relaxing game, where people slowly pay you to remain cool and chill the fuck out.

Anyway, peace all. I'm sure my advice isn't need here, u guys got it pretty much all figured out. see ya at the tables.

i wouldnt have banned you from lp but just from the HS forum for obvious reasons
glad we were able to play hu.

howd this go im curious

lol 2+2faggetaments