this is always a good point. one time there was a spanish inquisition and now the pope rides around in a fucking golf cart, therefore christianity is just as destructive now as islam. i don't understand the argument entirely but i get the (apolo)gist of it.
You mentioned millenia of muslims crimes, I simply stated that Christianity has been historically even worse, but as I said for 3rd time, yes today Islam is more barbaric than Christianity.
it's my mistake that i used the wrong analogy. what i was trying to convey is that you don't care about a country halfway around the world. but even in the case of the country directly to the north of your homeland, you would never fly a plane into a building over the war on drugs
Yet you have dozens of military bases in many countries halfway around the world
Are you so consumed by pacifism that you would cowardly insist using the most advanced military in the world to try and stop evil is categorically wrong? that there's no fight worth fighting?
You are not the world police, countries have sovereignty and your objective is not fight "evil" that is ridiculous, the US wages war based on self interest, only a naive fool believes you are the white knights of the world.
no shit, what's your excuse for, for example, the hundreds of years of antisemitism before 1945, which is part why we created a jewish state, or all the antisemitism from people who aren't palestinian. it's the jews' own fault?
You asked if Israels foreign policy causes antisemitism, I said it does... and it fucking does.
the figure you are citing is not "civilians" but "not the intended targets,"
Oh my mistake.... let me correct that, 90% of the deaths caused by drones are not intended targets
what fucking stake do we have there? do you feel no sympathy for your fellow man? do you have any moral fortitude left? have you heard of ISIS? a group of people wants to destroy civilization and you think the best bet is to just ignore them?
this is a civil war that has displaced 4 million people
what the fuck do you suppose is the way to save that country? wait and see what happens, see if it works itself out? wait until it completely destroys itself? wait until the entire population of 17 million people leaves the country and divide them among other countries?
do you think global jihadism is stronger or weaker when there are literally groups carving out territory in its name?
you can't simultaneously say problems in the middle east are the US's fault yet act so arrogantly shocked when someone suggests that it's the US's responsibility to fix it when the lazy puppet states of the region take no initiative
jesus what are you talking about "what fucking stake do we have there," the people being raped, murdered, executed, in what way are there two sides to this? what stake does russia have? what stake would iran have?
the west pumps hundreds of billions of dollars into wahhabi oil, and yet the moment we assassinate bin laden, suddenly we're not allowed to meddle, it's imperialism, intervention never works, ??? if you want to know what doesn't work, it's shrugging your shoulders
people have some wicked idea that if doing nothing has cons, doing x has cons, and doing y has cons, that they're all equal so doing nothing wins. it's like saying if you fold your EV is $-2, if you raise the pot your EV is $-1, and if you call your EV is $-3. well you lose money either way so just fold? it's bullshit
Except that you support ISIS in other fronts when it suits the agenda, it seems to me you are deluded into thinking you are truly going in there to save the poor, feed the hungry and bring justice to the world, news flash for you, you are not, you are only destabilizing the region, this is the result of your meddling.
Dismantelate your military bases, retreat your troops and let them sort themselves out, work on your own country and your own people you are 7 trillion in fucking debt for fucks sake... get your shit together.
yes that's it the US is just as bad, everyone's equal, the japanese empire went around raping and killing everything but the US was just as bad for stopping them and only made things worse, now they produce infinite anime and cheap cars, the US never does anything right
I was pointing out the Irony, that the middle east and the US have much more in common than what you would like to admit, you both are obsessed with violence and war, you are both race and religious motivated but obviously the US is a much more advanced society.
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You are so blind that you associate me with "the left" or democrats that think this is all US blame and Islam is a religion of peace, let me make this clear to you, Im an anarchist, and I believe Islam is the worst religion to date and Id like it to dissapear, but Id also like Christianity and the rest gone too, and both the middle east and the US (in terms of foreign policy) cause great harm to the world.
I think one of the big problems about this is that it has polarized views so much that both sides are absolutely ridiculous.
On one hand you have the Santafairy dogmeats racists etc, that want Arabs wiped from this earth, and on the other hand you have the apologist, that will say "religion have nothing to do with terrorism" and that want to open borders no questions asked and anything said againts Islam is labed Islamophobic.
It is very rare to see an objective and rational position in the middle, that realizes this is caused by military presence in the past in their region but also acknowledges the dangers of Islam and mass migration
^^ The only thing that prevents a middle ground when it comes to these kinds of migrants is Islam. I am very much for immigration, I belong to a shitfuck 3rd world country and like mexicans, thais, filipinos, vietnamese, chinese etc, we assimilate quite well into different societies and mostly respect the host countries way of life, we are also self-policing and are very tolerant of a bit of racism, we know our place in society when we try to reap the benefits of the country we're in. We do not impose our beliefs even if we do keep to ourselves. It's not even an education issue, a lot of different asians and mexicans who come to migrate to other countries don't even speak the language of finished school. People seem to overlook that.
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Santafairy Korea (South). Nov 15 2015 06:03. Posts 2227
it's kind of an important distinction that I thought you would have figured out by now, if you launch a predator drone to fire a missile at osama bin laden and also hit anwar al alwaki, it doesn't mean your drone strike killed 50% innocent people
your huffington post article is talking about "scores" of civilian casualties in multiple countries. yes, killing innocent people by accident is bad. it should absolutely be minimized to the extent possible. do you think i'm sitting here arguing FOR the murder of innocent people? this is exactly what i'm trying to fight. for some reason you don't mind accepting it's inevitable that terrorism will happen and that people will end up massacring innocent people intentionally when it's their single goal, but if it happens by accident in a foreign warzone, a place where the opposition kills innocent people for sport and for political ends, then you jump to oh god white devils
i mean come off it "scores" of civilians casualties in multiple countries are responsible for radicalizing people? if it were possible to make a billion people hate gays with a couple of drones don't you think republicans would apply that policy domestically?
yes, the US wages war in its own interests, and the US has made mistakes in the past. big fucking deal. I've played JJ like a fucking retard, I'm sure you can believe, it doesn't mean I fold it every time I get it now. The fact that someone made a mistake in the past IS NOT a reason to do NOTHING in some future situation. Doing nothing can be, and in the case of Syria clearly is, THE MOST EGREGIOUS mistake you can make. You're suggesting that bystanding is somehow the best thing to do. I might be the American, but even if you know nothing about geopolitics, take a five second look at a map and then take a guess at how bad the problem in Syria is if it's spilling into Northern Europe. You have no trouble opening your arms - as though Mexico is one of the ones taking in refugees - once people leave Syria, but when the suggestion is put to you that perhaps a laudable goal would be to fix Syria itself. it's crickets.
you sound like that tweet, do you think ISIS is just protecting their interests? jihadi john was a community organizer?
yes, the US has military bases around the world. this is the same USA that's responsible for south korea still existing. look at pax romana and pax britannica and tell me that having a strong, wide-reaching military is antithetical to peace. if not the US then who? I can't abide you pointing to a country where the US military isn't operating and saying "the US military must have destabilized this"
you want to talk about mistakes made by the US?
1) not removing Saddam in 1991. but that's okay with you because you want the US to just make a mistake, fuck something up, and then leave and watch it burn. you would rather we leave Saddam in power, leave with our tail between our legs, keep buying Saudi oil anyways without guarding our interests, and sit back and barbecue and drink bud light while Saddam genocided the Kurds. How enlightened.
2) not stopping the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. it took until 25% of the population was dead before Vietnam occupied the country. do you think any of those 2 million victims of genocide would have been whining "eww jingoism world police" if they had heard Huey helicopters flying over the mountains to rape the Khmer regime to death? apparently the US can never be the world police. just sit back and. do you know how big the Syrian diaspora is? it's about 4 million people. the population of Syria is only 17 million. does that proportion look familiar now? we're talking about a country that's close to total collapse.
I understand your point perfectly, believe it or not. What you're saying is basely immoral. I don't care if you're an anarchist, a monarchist, or a bicyclist, on this issue you are clearly aligned with the left, and with respect to this issue, the left have collectively turned off their brains, as have you that you would dare say something as transparently asinine as that I want to kill all Arabs.
You're looking at one of the biggest fires in the world today and saying no, firefighting causes just as many problems as arson. Not all sides are equal.
Look at this shit you're appealing to. The US national debt is high, therefore we shouldn't use the military that we spend half a trillion dollars a year on to fix the biggest problem in the Middle East, a civil war that's killing and displacing Arabs (Muslims) and their homes and exporting problems to all the other countries. What kind of logic is that supposed to be? Just wait until Russia or Iran takes over? 4 million refugees and you think the fucking region is going to do something about it themselves.
There is no "just sit back," you pitiful ideologue. There is no blank slate. Whether you do some drone strike or not, or whether you send in the army or not, it doesn't affect whether we're involved. We have always been involved. You can't just walk out and say I wash my hands of this. It's like raising a kid alone and when he's 1 year into puberty going "fuck this" and becoming a nomad in Mongolia. You didn't do nothing. You walked out. Let's be clear about that, Baal. What you're actually suggesting, which is disgusting but I would have at least respected you if you had been honest about it, is that you want the "west" to leave and let them destroy and kill themselves indefinitely in the hope that when the dust clears, things might be better than before.
It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen
1 - You continue to believe that your military incursions have anything to do with justice, and again I repeat to you that they are not, they are driven by political and corporate interests and the goal is profit, setting up regimes that are friendly towards us interests is the objective and the reason the CIA has been orchestrating coups since the 70s causing war, strife and resentment to the west in the area.
2 - Im not saying "dont send firefighters", Im saying that you arent firefighters, all you carry are buckets of fire... and by the way, YOU are on fire, how about putting you out first?
3 - Im not saying let them destroy themselves, I am saying this is not your war and you cannot help by massacring the side that is less favorable to you that coincidentally you deem "evil"
When you see things as simple as seeing your enemy as evil and consider yourself to be the saviour you must know you are wrong, I dont remember who im paraphrasing here... and this is where you explain to me how ISIS beheads gays etc and the point goes over your head one more time.
On November 14 2015 13:03 chris wrote:
People were being beheaded, raped, and enslaved, with crops salted, long before the US existed.
For a fun read , look up Saladin and the wars fought in the Muslim world as they built their own empires. This is also where assassins come from.
Are you for real ? :D
Did you really give Saladin as an example ?
Holy fucking shit
Give the guy that OPPOSED the Crusades as an example- you know the same crusades that killed babies and raped women. CHRISTIAN crusades.
And now idiots all around the world want border closure in Europe, so refugees can suffer. Those same refugees that are fleeing from the terror that happened in Paris, except where they live thats something that happens on a daily basis. Hypocrite society. You deserve to be the sheep that you are
Mad Arab?
Border closure is completely logical. Islam is backwards and dangerous. Europeans want it out of their society (and it's not even that drastic they just don't want a flood of Muslims coming in. Who knows if all of these refugees are even what they say they are. Could be plenty of extremists creeping in under the guise of being displaced). Let Islamic peoples live in Islam controlled territorries and leave them be as they leave everyone else to themselves. If you want to live in the past fine but we decent people have no obligation to allow you to drag down modern society
You do have obligations considering its your government that has been leading such politics for decades, its the fruit of their actions. Every single person that has brain and awareness has obligations. Of course you can be a shallow american who's first response to a humanitarian is " Mad Arab ? ". I feel jealous that im not so mind restricted as u are
Of course you can argue about whos fault it is and go for days or you can watch a video of any international relations expert and shut up
@Santafairy I have no idea how Baal has not called you an idiot yet. Its totally in his style, but since he hasn't. You sir are a brainwashed idiot living in fairy tales
There seems to be a lot of different statistics about civilian deaths from drone strikes. Pakistani government says it's 3%, some US study says it's 34%, some hactivist group says its over 9000. Maybe they define who's civilian differently. IMO if you are associating with known terrorist who's on kill list you don't count as civilian but possible threat to the great nation that is USA and you're fair game.
play your position small soldier
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Liquid`Drone Norway. Nov 15 2015 18:45. Posts 3093
nice posts baal.
Islam has issues that other current religions don't have. But please, for the love of SCIENCE, don't use the medieval age as an example of how Christianity is superior, and don't use Saladin as an example of a cruel oppressive dictator. From 800-1250ish (until mongols sacked baghdad) Islam was genuinely more evolved than Christianity was, and the middle east was genuinely better off than Europe. As for Saladin, you'll have a hard time finding a single European ruler from the same period of time (800-1250) looked upon as favorably by history and historians. In Spain (you know, the one muslim area in Europe during the medieval time), religious liberty was far more respected during the rule of the Moors than after they were kicked out. (Which, in the context of Christianity-Islam isn't that weird, but for example Jews were also treated much more favorably by the Muslim than Christian rulers. )
And I don't even fucking understand how Vlad the impaler got invoked, I mean yeah he was involved in some crusades and opposition to the Ottomans, but how is that relevant?
I'm not gonna engage in the 'whats up now' discussion, but I think it's greatly offensive when anti-religious minds use ignorance as fuel for their beliefs. Not to mention that it's also not necessary. You don't have to pretend that Islam was worse than Christianity 1000 years ago to make the claim that Islam is currently worse than Christianity. Christianity became not-that-dangerous through hundreds of years of secularization and modernization, Islam in arabic countries has undergone no such transformation, and islam in western countries is in an early stage of it.
lol POKER
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Liquid`Drone Norway. Nov 15 2015 18:50. Posts 3093
On November 15 2015 10:59 spugru wrote:
There seems to be a lot of different statistics about civilian deaths from drone strikes. Pakistani government says it's 3%, some US study says it's 34%, some hactivist group says its over 9000. Maybe they define who's civilian differently. IMO if you are associating with known terrorist who's on kill list you don't count as civilian but possible threat to the great nation that is USA and you're fair game.
How do you think society Pakistani and Afghani society operate? You think terrorists just walk around telegraphing to the world that they are terrorists? You think in random pakistani village, every citizen knows who happen to be on american to-kill-lists so they can avoid contact with them? I mean if I were a terrorist, I would be hiding that fact as well as I possibly could from every other non-terrorist - I'd certainly try to blend in with others.
lol POKER
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Liquid`Drone Norway. Nov 15 2015 19:33. Posts 3093
On November 14 2015 22:23 NewbSaibot wrote:
Is there any other group of people who would resort to terrorism when they feel slighted? For instance, lets say in the USA rampant police militarization results in numerous civilian casualties for target apprehension. The cops start using drones with hellfire missiles to take out speeding cars, and in the chaos they kill a few civilians each time. Do you see a bunch of Christians, Mormons, or anybody else shooting up a movie theater or school to exact their revenge? I dont think so. Regardless of what atrocities were committed by whatever popular religions existed in the past, those are over and done with. There is only one group of people performing this horse shit today.
Meh. the IRA didn't happen that long ago. Basque separatists also. Go 40 years back and you have RAF in germany. Here in Norway we just 4 years ago had a guy whose depravity rivals the worst of them - he was motivated by hatred for islamic immigrants. In the US you also have your timothy mcveigh just 20 years ago - he was motivated in part by the Waco siege, which clearly makes him a christian extremist in my eyes.
Now there are some differences; firstly IRA/Basque conducted their terrorism domestically and for domestic gains, so they couldn't ever kill as many or as indescriminately as the Islamic terrorists do. Secondly, there are (especially numerically) way more potential muslim terrorists out there. Any rational individual can understand that someone is much more likely to become a terrorists if they live a shitty, hopeless life than if they have nice prospects for the future (people who engage in terrorist acts, not the ones who are at top planning, are pretty much always like, disenfranchised and thus impressionable male in the age 15-25, exact same group of the population most likely to join a nazi or whatever protest group if they live in the US or Europe), and there are way more muslims than westerners who fit this criteria. Then there's the third point, which is basically how Islam differs from other religions in terms of terrorism, in that they are much more positive towards martyrdom and individually genuinely believe in an eternal afterlife influenced by their earthly actions. This is one area which, from a terrorist point of view, does make Islam more dangerous than other religions, because a terrorist attack is far more likely to be very deadly and very terrifying if the people involved have no regard for their personal safety.
But if you solve the whole, shitty, hopeless lives part, that would make a far greater dent into islamic terrorist numbers than a modernization of their religious thought would. Obviously the latter is hugely important - but more so for the sake of improving their own lives than for making them stop terrorist activities. The amount of muslims involved in international terrorism is such an incredibly small fraction anyway.
On November 15 2015 10:59 spugru wrote:
There seems to be a lot of different statistics about civilian deaths from drone strikes. Pakistani government says it's 3%, some US study says it's 34%, some hactivist group says its over 9000. Maybe they define who's civilian differently. IMO if you are associating with known terrorist who's on kill list you don't count as civilian but possible threat to the great nation that is USA and you're fair game.
How do you think society Pakistani and Afghani society operate? You think terrorists just walk around telegraphing to the world that they are terrorists? You think in random pakistani village, every citizen knows who happen to be on american to-kill-lists so they can avoid contact with them? I mean if I were a terrorist, I would be hiding that fact as well as I possibly could from every other non-terrorist - I'd certainly try to blend in with others.
I meant terrorist leaders and other high ranking people in such organizations.
Some threw a firecracker during memorial for victims, look at the panic:
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Liquid`Drone Norway. Nov 15 2015 20:19. Posts 3093
what about family members of known terrorists? I mean these people are often patriarchal figures with large families. those families have members who may or may not be involved in the terrorist agenda. These family members have friends who will be very upset to learn about their demise. Like, I get that if there's a secret meeting in hidden shack between the two mountains with four known terrorists from different factions trying to coordinate a massive action then it's like, yeah, you're there on your own responsibility, but it just seems to me like that's not the typical scenario.
Baal's hydra allegory is dead on. As long as there are like, any genuinely civilian casualities at all, then for each terrorist you kill, another (or more) will plop up in his place. Each civilian death grants legitimacy to the fight that the terrorists are fighting, each grants more legitimacy to their claim that no option is too extreme, each death grants more legitimacy to the opinion that our (democratic) populations deserve to be hit strong and hard right back for electing leaders that continue to bomb them. Of course it's fucking difficult as hell, because many current terrorists are in the 'can't be rehabilitated' camp. But the current situation, that's just leading up to perpetual war imo, and I'd rather take the moral high ground.
On November 15 2015 19:14 Defrag wrote:
Some threw a firecracker during memorial for victims, look at the panic:
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