Annoying KQ hands

Villains are 2 of the biggest winners in the game if u didnt know that already :|
Ez option would be to just fold pre and sometimes 4bet, but imo these two players are capable of exploiting u pretty easily if u dont have a fairly wide 3bet calling range.

Submitted by : NMcNasty

PokerStars Game #27337258036: Holdem No Limit ($5/$10) - 2009/04/21 14:08:43 ET
Table Calvinia IV 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: punketty ($1658 in chips)
Seat 2: BlueDophin ($1641.20 in chips)
Seat 3: Hero ($1176 in chips)
Seat 5: 0Human0 ($1005 in chips)
0Human0: posts small blind $5
punketty: posts big blind $10

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
BlueDophin: folds
Hero: raises $20 to $30
0Human0: folds
punketty: raises $69 to $99
Hero: calls $69

Flop (Pot : $203.00)

   
punketty: bets $165
Hero: calls $165

Turn (Pot : $533.00)

   
punketty: bets $365
Hero: calls $365

River (Pot : $1,263.00)

   
punketty: bets $1029 and is all-in
Hero: folds
Uncalled bet ($1029) returned to punketty
punketty collected $1261 from pot

Summary
Total pot $1263 | Rake $2
Board  
Seat 1: punketty (big blind) collected ($1261)
Seat 2: BlueDophin folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 3: Hero (button) folded on the River
Seat 5: 0Human0 (small blind) folded before Flop

PokerStars Game #27354229348: Holdem No Limit ($5/$10) - 2009/04/21 22:27:29 ET
Table Undina II 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Thousandair1 ($1029.50 in chips)
Seat 2: TapOff ($979 in chips)
Seat 3: Hero ($1074.50 in chips)
Seat 4: TheCleaner11 ($1890 in chips)
Seat 6: booshiet ($1278 in chips)
Hero: posts small blind $5
TheCleaner11: posts big blind $10

Holecards(Odds)
Dealt to Hero
booshiet: folds
Thousandair1: folds
TapOff: folds
Hero: raises $20 to $30
TheCleaner11: raises $70 to $100
Hero: calls $70

Flop(Odds) (Pot : $200.00)

   
Hero: checks
TheCleaner11: bets $135
Hero: raises $165 to $300
TheCleaner11: raises $1490 to $1790 and is all-in
Hero: calls $674.50 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($815.50) returned to TheCleaner11

Turn(Odds) (Pot : $2,149.00)

   

River (Pot : $2,149.00)

   

Showdown
Hero: shows (a pair of Queens)
TheCleaner11: shows (a pair of Kings)
TheCleaner11 collected $2147 from pot

Summary
Total pot $2149 | Rake $2
Board  
Seat 1: Thousandair1 folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 2: TapOff (button) folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 3: Hero (small blind) showed and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 4: TheCleaner11 (big blind) showed and won ($2147) with a pair of Kings
Seat 6: booshiet folded before Flop (didnt bet)

fold against punketty pre for sure, I think a fold on the riv is ok I doubt he expects you to fold too much

hand 2 seems fine

Fold first hand would be terrible. I might consider making a small 4bet-bluff occasionally with it vs lesser players, but not vs punketty. He's a polarized 3bettor, so I will always call and float flop a lot. River is a fold as the bdfd came. On most non-spade rivers --> snap call.

Second is fine if you're raising at least 40% on SB and making this kind of move occasionally. I could tell you how I'd play this hand, but a few things I have to keep to myself.

i dun think we can fold hand 1 4 handed. depending on how u play u could raise flop but from what i remember about your game i think you played it fine.

hand 2 cleaner's range is really really wide and probably checks behind flop a ton so i probably lead/shove the flop.

On April 22 2009 13:35 Rhaegar wrote: Fold first hand would be terrible. I might consider making a small 4bet-bluff occasionally with it vs lesser players, but not vs punketty. He's a polarized 3bettor, so I will always call and float flop a lot. River is a fold as the bdfd came. On most non-spade rivers --> snap call. Second is fine if you're raising at least 40% on SB and making this kind of move occasionally. I could tell you how I'd play this hand, but a few things I have to keep to myself.

so how is KQ a good hand to call here? you jus get messed up on these boards... vs most ppl I agree its fine to call but not vs someone who 3bs like punketty

1st is definitely a call call call imo
2nd seems like a cooler, but peachys lead/call flop seems pretty awesome i like that

On April 22 2009 13:16 Jamie217 wrote: fold against punketty pre for sure, I think a fold on the riv is ok I doubt he expects you to fold too much

For real? You think KQo is a fold 4handed BTN vs. BB confrontation against him?

I would call on the river. Samo realises it's very unlikely you have AK (ppl 4bet that pf as a standard nowadays). Some players would raise the turn w/ monsters so he knows it's less likely for you to have them. And you can still have a pair smaller than Kx.

The fact that the spade comes on the river makes it more of a call, because it's a great card for him to bluff.

Think of it this way - if he's bluffing the turn how often does he shove the river w/ air on a 5d? How often on a 5s?

Unless he doesn't fire too many 2nd barrels (which I doubt, because this is a good flop for you to float) I think you will definitely see a bluff enough of the time (>30%) to make it profitable.

I by no means expect to see him shove worse for value (I don't think he's the kind that 3bets KJ), but his play would be definitely consistent w/ a hand like 65o, T9o.

dont post SB if cleaner is in the BB

this is adam001,

idk what ur dynamic is v punketty and the cleaner but...

id jam turn in hand 1, and i think 2nd is fine/std.

also depends on what mood punketty is in, some days he 3b's more than others, i could see folding pf v him if he was in non 3b pf mode.

i'd prob do like adam, jam turn hand 1, and hand #2 is really standard

never played vs villan in hand 1 but... i dont remember the last time i folded in that spot

do you remember a hand you ever folded anyway jonny

yeah hand 1 I was expecting a lot of people to say jam turn, which would at the least save me the sh1tty river spot, but yeah punketty has a polarized raising range which means I'm rarely getting value from worse. I felt like I had to just play the guessing game on the river, and with such a crappy card I felt like i had to fold even though there's the possibility im getting owned by T9 or he might in fact just be shoving worse, cuz he i doubt he can just check/fold a worse king if he did in fact raise w/ one pre.

hand 2 i guess is stnd but it just felt bad at the time. If cleaner does check back flop a lot doesnt that mean his initial bet is going to be a lot stronger than the avg aggrodonk that just auto-cbets? If u still think u should stack off, what would u do with a weaker king or AT here?

in hand 2 if cleaner has a lot of air in his range pf like peachy said - in a vacuum - i'd rather lead a hand with less value than KQ as a bluff, i think cleaner just folds out hands to a lead here that miss this flop, and gets it in with like str draw+. I'd rather just check KQ to him and maybe get a cbet from some air hands in his range and if he checks back he likely has little to no equity vs our hand and we can just bet the turn and take it down with little risk, or check again to induce a delayed cbet with an air hand that checked back, which cleaner is more than capable of doing.

adam001

No. raising turn is horrible imo. Call to call some rivers, but not this one imo, as you should flat turn with p+fd a lot and he knows it and I think he will almost never make this bluff as just his internal randomizer will choose the spot where the spades miss as a much better bluffing spot.

Eheehe, I managed to create quite the idiotic sentense, but you see the logic don't you?

On April 22 2009 23:07 Rhaegar wrote: No. raising turn is horrible imo. Call to call some rivers, but not this one imo, as you should flat turn with p+fd a lot and he knows it and I think he will almost never make this bluff as just his internal randomizer will choose the spot where the spades miss as a much better bluffing spot. Eheehe, I managed to create quite the idiotic sentense, but you see the logic don't you?

agree, i think shoving turn is bad bad bad. call turn call river is much better.

2nd hand i like leading because i think he shoves a ton of straight draws like AK AJ KJ K9 J9 J8 98

Hand 2 I think is fine.
Hand 1 I dont think punkety is the type to fire 2 and give up on a good river scarecard with your hand being mostly face up at this point, I think if you call the turn you should probably be calling on this river.Also he never has 33,77,KQ- here from what I seen, but he can have some funky 2p,AK,bdflush or bdstraight.

How is our hand face up? It's kinda problematic that Punketty's range doesn't really have many monsters on this board as he doesnt 3bet pairs here and probably not Kxs, so he is repping mostly a backdoor flush/AA/AK/KK. With this in mind it might be a bit closer than I thought, but I'd still fold.

I'd def rather c/r hand 2. We win an extra cbet from his total air like A2s or whatever and give him the chance to put in the last bet, so he could potentially shove like AK AJ ASWELL AS all the hands he would get it in with if we led/3bet anyway.

Hand 1 I don't see myself folding after flopping TP, I would either shove turn or call call call, if I call turn I don't see myself folding for 500 into a 1.7k pot on the river and would fold preflop if I'm uncomfortable flopping top pair. Also disagree with Rhaegar about "his internal randomizer will choose the spot where the spades miss as a much better bluffing spot." We have a flush draw very very very rarely, we'd basically have to have exactly 7sXs, I don't see how he would think that a 5d is ever a better bluffing card than the 5s, since he's gonna have the flush more often than we are anyway, especially vs McNasty who probably calls a 3bet with 7xs here extremely rarely, and 7s8s isn't possible since the turn is 8s.

Though I guess that's not what you meant, I guess you meant that the 5d allows him to have barrelled flush draws that missed, whereas the 5s means if he barrelled a flush draw he got there. I gues the way you wrote it sounded like you think that he would be more inclined to continue a bluff on the 5d than the 5s, I guess the problem is "what is he bluffing with now that the flush draw got there". This is probably what you meant and I probably misinterpreted, so if that's the case ignore above post.

i call hand 1

I like jamming turn over call,call,call fwiw

hand 2 meh from what I remember of cleaner's game this is pretty standard, and yea way prefer cr'ing flop than leading and shoving over a raise. He's gonna bet and jam over you on this flop with a very wide range.

HAND 1 - MINRAISE FLOP

SUP NOW !

u been to 18 yet mannercookie? LOL

On April 22 2009 13:40 n0rthf4ce wrote: hand 2 cleaner's range is really really wide and probably checks behind flop a ton so i probably lead/shove the flop.

TheCleaner's 3bet range is a lot tighter than people seem to believe.

For those who don't know what Rekrul is talking about

yea did the whole 18 and rio bullshit

On April 23 2009 22:21 GiYoM wrote: Show nested quote + On April 22 2009 13:40 n0rthf4ce wrote: hand 2 cleaner's range is really really wide and probably checks behind flop a ton so i probably lead/shove the flop. TheCleaner's 3bet range is a lot tighter than people seem to believe.

I mean, maybe vs u

On April 24 2009 10:32 n0rthf4ce wrote: Show nested quote + On April 23 2009 22:21 GiYoM wrote:   On April 22 2009 13:40 n0rthf4ce wrote: hand 2 cleaner's range is really really wide and probably checks behind flop a ton so i probably lead/shove the flop. TheCleaner's 3bet range is a lot tighter than people seem to believe. I mean, maybe vs u

Maybe he plays tight when I'm in the game.

Or maybe he plays tight at 3-6 5-10 cuz he people pay him off anyways cuz he knows that people knows that he used to monster 25-50.