How to play TT preflop

Submitted by : TalentedTom

PokerStars Game #4308612150: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2006/03/16 - 15:32:23 (ET)
Table 'Eridanus III' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: JoyGrithero ($281.75 in chips)
Seat 2: Junebug1979 ($202.75 in chips)
Seat 4: Tary88 ($179.90 in chips)
Seat 5: joeb83 ($154.35 in chips)
Seat 6: wupa ($247.15 in chips)
Seat 8: K DaWg 685 ($61.70 in chips)
Seat 9: TalentedTom ($203 in chips)
TalentedTom: posts small blind $1
JoyGrithero: posts big blind $2
bdubs3737: sits out

Holecards
Dealt to TalentedTom
Junebug1979: folds
Tary88: folds
joeb83: folds
wupa: folds
K DaWg 685: folds
TalentedTom: raises $4 to $6
JoyGrithero: raises $12 to $18
joeb83 said, "pair, or just bitg balls"
TalentedTom: raises $18 to $36
JoyGrithero: raises $82 to $118
wupa said, "both"
TalentedTom: raises $82 to $200
JoyGrithero said, "lmao tom"
JoyGrithero: calls $82

Flop (Pot : $400)

   
joeb83 said, "i layed down aq"
TalentedTom: bets $3 and is all-in
JoyGrithero: calls $3

Turn (Pot : $406)

   
JoyGrithero said, "i got nothing"
JoyGrithero said, "u?"

River (Pot : $406)

   

Showdown
TalentedTom: shows (a full house, Tens full of Threes)
JoyGrithero: mucks hand
TalentedTom collected $403 from pot

Summary
Total pot $406 | Rake $3
Board  
Seat 1: JoyGrithero (big blind) mucked
Seat 2: Junebug1979 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Tary88 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: joeb83 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: wupa folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: K DaWg 685 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: TalentedTom (small blind) showed and won ($403) with a full house, Tens full of Threes

Whats the point of playing like that -_- huuuuuge underdog or 50/50

=p nh though I guess !

The point is illustrating his "uber hypo-aggressiveness"

A.K.A madness!

he likes to splash a lot of chips in the pot yo

So you might say he's a "maniac running over weak-tights", right?

something like that, that guy with ak is a donk tho.

On March 16 2006 13:03 tomson wrote: So you might say he's a "maniac running over weak-tights", right?

duuude

he makes like 15bb/100, show respect, sometimes EVEN HIGHER

!!

The main purpose of this is this:



Stop fucking making threads where your folding KK preflop or QQ fuck it stop fucking folding trips, flushes and TPTK.

dudes stop it im getting scared

i have trouble determining who's the bigger donk

On March 16 2006 13:38 radiaL wrote: i have trouble determining who's the bigger donk

your joking right?

clearly

Dont see how thats a good play but okkkkkkkkkkkk

Tom - Play at my tables please, i like free money

rofl... Tom your play was brilliant!
you're just lucky u were 50/50 and not a 4-1 dog

abrasive-x shouldn't be multiaccounting on lp

i like free money too, maybe i will paly with you

this aint 50/50 joo its 60/40 someone else folded an ace too
but even if all his outs are live im still 56/43 favorate thats preety massive - beleive it or not theres more to poker than AA vs KK
no joke

his hand range is AA KK QQ JJ AK
you got lucky he had the ONLY HAND you were ahead of
adding to that, the hand youre ahead of is 56-43
the hands that are ahead of you are 82-18
terrible play

i put him on AK

Not to mention our private Gus Hansen did a nice Mexican-like minraise pre-flop

JoyGrithero: raises $12 to $18
TalentedTom: raises $18 to $36

On March 16 2006 14:58 TalentedTom wrote: i put him on AK

Yeah, the super standard 3x raise gave it away.

bigballs would you fold this too?


Submitted by : TalentedTom

PokerStars Game #4307847653: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2006/03/16 - 13:54:55 (ET)
Table 'Patricia IV' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: MiracleFlop ($181 in chips)
Seat 2: cfb120 ($147.50 in chips)
Seat 3: Drew_Nguyen ($195.40 in chips)
Seat 4: Demon2Some ($199.75 in chips)
Seat 5: TalentedTom ($198.15 in chips)
Seat 6: palema ($146 in chips)
Seat 7: TSOLO ($72.35 in chips)
Seat 8: real time 22 ($275.05 in chips)
Seat 9: theraed ($519.65 in chips)
TalentedTom: posts small blind $1
palema: posts big blind $2

Holecards
Dealt to TalentedTom
TSOLO: folds
real time 22: raises $2 to $4
theraed: folds
MiracleFlop: folds
cfb120: folds
Drew_Nguyen: calls $4
Demon2Some: folds
TalentedTom: calls $3
palema: calls $2

Flop (Pot : $16)

   
TalentedTom: checks
palema: checks
real time 22: checks
Drew_Nguyen: bets $15
TalentedTom: calls $15
palema: folds
real time 22: folds

Turn (Pot : $46)

   
TalentedTom: checks
Drew_Nguyen: bets $25
TalentedTom: calls $25

River (Pot : $96)

   
TalentedTom: checks
Drew_Nguyen: bets $50
TalentedTom: calls $50

Showdown
Drew_Nguyen: shows (high card Jack)
TalentedTom: shows (a pair of Tens)
TalentedTom collected $193 from pot
TalentedTom said, "dude"

Summary
Total pot $196 | Rake $3
Board  
Seat 1: MiracleFlop folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: cfb120 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Drew_Nguyen showed and lost with high card Jack
Seat 4: Demon2Some (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: TalentedTom (small blind) showed and won ($193) with a pair of Tens
Seat 6: palema (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: TSOLO folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: real time 22 folded on the Flop
Seat 9: theraed folded before Flop (didn't bet)

almost definitely, but when i did, that would be on the flop, cause its multiway and im oop.
after calling the flop, i would definitely call down there.

On March 16 2006 14:55 BigBalls wrote: his hand range is AA KK QQ JJ AK you got lucky he had the ONLY HAND you were ahead of adding to that, the hand youre ahead of is 56-43 the hands that are ahead of you are 82-18 terrible play

Are you sure about the hand range?
JoyGrithero is pretty aggressive too, his first reraise was pretty weak, so it could have done it with a broader hand range.
And doing that occasionnaly is the only way to get called by something else than a set or 2 pairs when you have AA-KK.
Of course it does not make any sense to play TT or AK like that everytime, but it's hard to tell wether it was the correct play or not considering only one hand.

Tom, we can all find posts where we made a 'great' call and our hand was good, im sure you call down like that and lose hands too but choose not to post them. In the TT hand, if you were playing against me then there is no way in hell you would have the best hand preflop. If you have some read on joey that means your tens are probably good, then wonderful - but why post it here.

On March 16 2006 17:14 Galdred wrote: Show nested quote + On March 16 2006 14:55 BigBalls wrote: his hand range is AA KK QQ JJ AK you got lucky he had the ONLY HAND you were ahead of adding to that, the hand youre ahead of is 56-43 the hands that are ahead of you are 82-18 terrible play Are you sure about the hand range? JoyGrithero is pretty aggressive too, his first reraise was pretty weak, so it could have done it with a broader hand range. And doing that occasionnaly is the only way to get called by something else than a set or 2 pairs when you have AA-KK. Of course it does not make any sense to play TT or AK like that everytime, but it's hard to tell wether it was the correct play or not considering only one hand.

wtf thats actually a good response, where did you come from?

On March 16 2006 13:27 TalentedTom wrote: The main purpose of this is this: Stop fucking making threads where your folding KK preflop or QQ fuck it stop fucking folding trips, flushes and TPTK.

sigh hypoaggressive at its worst

Altho i do agree with tom that too many people here are weaktight

i disagree that it's a bad thing at their respective levels
being weak tight only becomes a problem when you play 5/10 and 10/20 and you need to stand up to better players

Image considerations?

you all fucking suck and talentedtom made the right play

his hand range is not AA KK QQ JJ AK

weak tight pussies

rek - unless his opponent was a total idiot (and i will assume not since he was full stacked) what hand do you see him having that TT has dominated? 99? i mean even if he has A2os its not as big of an underdog to TT as TT is to AA

if if if

he pushed with 10 10

his opponent had AK

he was ahead

in gambling, if you are ahead when you put your money in

it is correct

it doesn't matter what range of hands bigballs puts his opponent on.

ya, but we arn't exactly seeing toms hands where he pushs with TT and loses to an overpair either. So the question is how often does he do this and find himself ahead preflop.

Fact that he shows this hand doesn't mean he lost 3 of them to JJ QQ KK AA :/

you dont see my hands when i push with TT and get beat cause it's never happened before, i make these plays based on reads for some reason yesturday I was in a zone i put him on exactly AK and since i trust my reads I pushed.

On March 16 2006 13:27 TalentedTom wrote: The main purpose of this is this: Stop fucking making threads where your folding KK preflop or QQ fuck it stop fucking folding trips, flushes and TPTK.

I like your style, its cool and its cool to see that you're making money of it. But when I think I'm beat I fold. And I use to be right ;;

On March 17 2006 04:53 TalentedTom wrote: you dont see my hands when i push with TT and get beat cause it's never happened before, i make these plays based on reads for some reason yesturday I was in a zone i put him on exactly AK and since i trust my reads I pushed.

I don't want to be harsh or cynical, but really, you just made a bad play, got lucky and now you're justifying it.

He raised 3 times your bet twice. I don't know what zone you were in to make that read, most likely the twilight zone.

tomson has a point

zzz

as dumb as tom is somtimes

he > weak tight pussies like 87% of the people here

My question is, if you were in the "zone" and put him exactly on AK why not flat call the raise and see a flop? You put it all-in preflop and you let AK see 5 cards to pair instead of seeing 3 cards to pair. I don't mind the original raise, but when you get reraised you should just call. If your opponent is a tight / passive / solid player, the re-reraise makes a little bit more sense (especially if your putting him on AK), because a tight / passive player will either smooth call or muck (even if your table image is loose / wild, 3 bets preflop usually merits a lot of respect in any ring game table). Obviously this poor boy wasn't "tight" or "passive" and if you knew from previous action that he overplays hands like this, why do you let him have an even edge on you in a coinflip when you can make him make a bigger mistake on the flop.

I'm not the type of poker player who likes huge preflop action, as I love seeing flops and playing after flops. The original hand posted isn't educated poker, it's stupid gambling on by both players. I hope no one learns anything from this...

Tom i think you're a good player, you just haven't had a really bad run yet.

On March 17 2006 14:33 Fraser wrote: Tom i think you're a good player, you just haven't had a really bad run yet.

hmm apparently you have not seen any of my legendary tilt streaks (anyone who's played with me knows) I have my tilt 100% under control now so that's overwith but a bad run for me i drop 10-13 buy ins ins in one day that was in the past, i cant immagine losing this much anymore im much better now than i was back then.

Don't make that statement cause the bad runs ive had are ridicilous, im one of the most overbankrolled players at the stakes i play. that's why it looks like i dont care about the money. I just focus on the poker and make whatever play i feel is correct instead of worring about losing a certain # of $$

i had no idea this thread would turn into a penis measuring contest... jeez

what did you expect?

theres some interesting discussion about your hand too so itll stay open for a bit

On March 17 2006 14:20 JonnyCosMo wrote: My question is, if you were in the "zone" and put him exactly on AK why not flat call the raise and see a flop? You put it all-in preflop and you let AK see 5 cards to pair instead of seeing 3 cards to pair. I don't mind the original raise, but when you get reraised you should just call. If your opponent is a tight / passive / solid player, the re-reraise makes a little bit more sense (especially if your putting him on AK), because a tight / passive player will either smooth call or muck (even if your table image is loose / wild, 3 bets preflop usually merits a lot of respect in any ring game table). Obviously this poor boy wasn't "tight" or "passive" and if you knew from previous action that he overplays hands like this, why do you let him have an even edge on you in a coinflip when you can make him make a bigger mistake on the flop. I'm not the type of poker player who likes huge preflop action, as I love seeing flops and playing after flops. The original hand posted isn't educated poker, it's stupid gambling on by both players. I hope no one learns anything from this...

You had a great read tom, but this guy has a very good point. NH

Mr.Cosmo - I played it like this because when I feel I have an edge, I will push it as far as I can, that's how I play poker. You obviously don't agree with this theres nothing wrong with that I don't expect many people to. Most of the hands I now-a-days are simple demonstrations of me trusing my reads, I hope to inspire other players to do so... I may swear a lot and maybe sound mean but I'm a nice guy being honest and always giving my 2 cents. I try to polish my game a lot instead of puting people on a massive range of hands (eg 6-8 hands and then calculating how my hand matches up against each one) I try and determine straight up just WTF can these guys have exactly and I base my play on this. I play like this because I've spend THOUSANDS (literly) of dollars looking people up in $50NL I spend a ton of time at that stage polishig my skills rather than jumping up levels ASAP... That's why I didn't leave 50NL untill I had a BR of $5000 and a massive BB/100 I was by no means a marginal winner.

A push like this may be stupid for someone with 20-25 buy-ins but since I've accumilated a BR which allows me to play the way I've always wanted to and be able to withstand any varience. I agree it's MUCH safer to just flat call and push on any flop that has no AK or Q but I decide to not give any free cards when I feel I'm ahead... it's just the style of poker I play. On another note the next 4-5 times I push preflop will be with premium hands eg. AA-QQ and a play like this + many other stunts I pull gives other players the confidence to go deep against me with much lesser holdings.

your momma

you da bomb diggity, yo.

this hand is hilarious... reminds me of the first time i ever got pocket 10's.

this is awful play and i don't care what anybody says. two minraises pre-flop?? if you think he has air then just put him all-in pre-flop after the first re-raise. there's no fucking way you "read" that he had AK after a pre-flop 3-bet.

i assume you use pokertracker talentedtom?

feel free to bring up the session and paste all the previous hands here that the other kid played which hinted you to this "killer read" on him.

until you do that, its only reasonable to assume this is a case of, as tomson said, "results-oriented dumbass got lucky and thinks he made an awesome play"

Tom, there's a difference between tilting and running bad...

TalentedTom I'm all about trusting reads and going with it. I won't doubt that you put him on AK here... but think about your play. If you knew he had AK, and he's a bad player, and you have a greater edge over him, why in the world do you nullify your own edge over this boy by putting it all-in on a coinflip against him? Your like 55% / 45% to win TT vs AK before the flop when after the flop (assuming he doesn't pair which he won't 2/3 of the time) you'll be %75 / %25 over him, and if he calls your all-in on the flop then he's making a much bigger mistake than if he does it before the flop.

I can only wonder if you would have posted this hand if the board came:

On March 18 2006 12:25 Ket wrote: i assume you use pokertracker talentedtom? feel free to bring up the session and paste all the previous hands here that the other kid played which hinted you to this "killer read" on him. until you do that, its only reasonable to assume this is a case of, as tomson said, "results-oriented dumbass got lucky and thinks he made an awesome play"

ive been playing against this guy since 25NL

so please go ahead and explain at what point exactly in the preflop betting you rule out higher pp and work out it has to be AK, and what he'd have done differently at that point with JJ/QQ or KK/AA. is there something else involved like how long he takes to think as well? until you reasonably clear this up (without making up answers) it remains pretty hard to believe this "feeling" of yours that narrows his range down to exactly one hand is good instead of lucky guess

Ok so if he has AKo your slightly ahead by like 2% and racing vs a guy who is basically giving his $ away. So if his hands are AA KK QQ JJ AK..... that means you have to be right like 85% of the time for this to be a winning play and even when you are theres a 50% chance to lose your $ in a very rare situation that does not happen often at all. Now if you have some folding value by moving all in I could understand this play, but you had none after he put half his chips in. Also I fail to see how making this play vs anyone willing to go all in with AKo is good. The only way you can push here is if you know 95% of the time the guy does not play PP's this aggressivly and would have just called your reraise on the flop to slow play a little.

But hey toms a cool guy so who gives a shit.

Before reading this note: Fuck you, I don't need to justify anything to anyone, but all you donks can't seem to comprehend a simple thought process, so I will tell you what I was thinking about.

One thing many of you may not have taken into consideration (I didn't mention cause I didn't expect so much flaming from this hand) is that this is SB vs BB and more often than not I win a large %'s of blind vs blind plays cause of aggresion. That's why when I reraised him the amount was not to large, my first raise is just a standard one, he reraised me - this could be him making a play with any two (which he is capable of) I would assume this is most likley because since he has position on me and he knows I will bet on almost any flop slowplaying would be the optimal play here but he elects to reraise so I figure he wants to take down this pot right now that's why I throw in another reraise. The purpose of this was to show that I indeed do have a hand I expected him to flat call at this point but he elects to reraise me again... I can't immagine this specific player doing this with a big PP especially taking into consideration he has position on me (say this because I've played with him since 25NL I have a good idea of what hes all about)

I have a really good read on a some players, it's because I've played many hands against them so I can open up my game more against these guys people like Spunkman, JoyGrithero (used to be Sir_tilt) + many more but meaningless to mention them all.

Tomson is a fucking retard - If you look at my most plays any I'm almost always getting in my money as either a slight favorate or massive favorate, I would never pay off any of you pussy nut straddlers with shit. Against the right players I will even fold KK preflop (I've done it three times in my poker career) I hardley ever donk away money unless I'm running a big bluff. Fucking retard talking random shit with absolutley no information. He's critiquing my play based on a dozen hands I've posted which are generally player oriented anyway. I make money because many of my plays are +EV I just sometimes push really small edges so it looks very unusual/crazy. There's more to poker than AA vs KK dumbass.

Too many if you begin your reads with IF if he has xx im 82% underdog etc obviously I'm very well aware of this. I know if he has AA or KK I'm fucked. I've never pushed with anything below QQ in my life before this hand - this is far from standard. It just so happens the first time I chose to do this I was correct - If you wanna call that luck I don't fucking care.

Admit it, it was just random lucky guessing bullshit and it worked out in the end you lying canuk

tom, you still fail to say exactly what makes him have AK 100% (or close to it) and not another hand

i mean, you can play your whole life with someone, and still it's impossible to narrow his hand range down to a single hand preflop 100%, or even close to 100% (unless hes some idiot that plays the same way every time he gets AK and NEVER varies his play... which isn't the case at $1/$2)

if he has a higher pp even 20% of the time here (meaning your "read" is still correct 80% of the time) you are making a horrible play

and like cosmo said, even if you put him on exactly AK you STILL played it wrong

to sum it up:
if your "read" is ~100% right: you played the hand wrong.
if your "read" is <~80% right: you played the hand wrong.

you post a win of a coin flip
and make it seem like you made a brilliant play

but you fail to realize that this was the BEST case scenario for you
and yet it was still a flip

there's nothing to discuss here

So what you buy with his 200$?

probably used it to rebuy after being stacked the next four times he got TT all in PF

i myself would probably never make this play.
but kudos to you for making the correct read and trusting it, because that's what poker is all about

the simple fact of the matter is: you can't argue with results. tom won the hand, he can justify his play by saying "my fart smells like rainbow giggles" and THERES NOTHING THE REST OF U CAN SAY TO CHANGE THE FACT THAT HE WON.

if he ran into a monster and got stacked (which is obviously what DOES usually happen in situations like these) he wouldn't post it because he'd look like a moron.

so in conclusion: tom's farts smell like rainbow giggles.

--- Nuked ---

tilting and one poor day of poker does not constitute a bad run

split if the dealer is showing a low card. Otherwise stick.

TT vs AK is NOT a 50:50 scenario!
TT vs AKo is about 57:43 and TT vs AKs is about 53:47 (it slighty changes depending on the suits of the AK and TT).

i dont know anything about toms thinking process, but if he knew he wasnt vs an overpair then the push is correct as hell. 10% edge is a fucking lot.

yeeeah JAM THAT SUCKER!

Not like this!

buy me some shoes

Cosmo makes a great point because you are in position and joy will almost certainly push the flop after committing that much. (now that i think of this, is the statement i said just true? WILL joy push the flop every time he misses oop?)

and one point i'd like to make on tom's side is that, this is not a hypo aggressive uber lag style, this is TIGHT AGGRESSIVE move. Pushing marginal edges hard is how tight aggressives separate themselves from weak tight. That being said, i think it's a bad spot to do it in, because i dont think on balance you have an edge here.

one other point id like to make is that i have very little experience playing heads up full stacked cash game. to those who have a lot, how do you play TT preflop? I didnt notice this was sb v bb at first, and that does change things a little bit, but i would like to see how elky would have played this (he has lots of HU cash game experience)

On March 18 2006 19:38 TalentedTom wrote: Tomson is a fucking retard - If you look at my most plays any I'm almost always getting in my money as either a slight favorate or massive favorate, I would never pay off any of you pussy nut straddlers with shit. Against the right players I will even fold KK preflop (I've done it three times in my poker career) I hardley ever donk away money unless I'm running a big bluff. Fucking retard talking random shit with absolutley no information. He's critiquing my play based on a dozen hands I've posted which are generally player oriented anyway. I make money because many of my plays are +EV I just sometimes push really small edges so it looks very unusual/crazy. There's more to poker than AA vs KK dumbass.

...

I'm not even gonna bother.

TT should be renamed TalentedTom

good bump fira

So basically, Tom should have said that he was 100 percent sure that his opponent had AK, however he made the correct move if he was certain that his opponent had AK. So in general this is a bad move, without an amazing read anyway. The end.

The only way i'm ever putting an opponent on 100% a single hand is if i can see the reflection of the cards in their glasses

On March 22 2006 23:29 iamalex wrote: So basically, Tom should have said that he was 100 percent sure that his opponent had AK, however he made the correct move if he was certain that his opponent had AK. So in general this is a bad move, without an amazing read anyway. The end.

wrong. read cosmos replay. he basically said if tom 100% sure his opponent has AK it is better to see a flop so that his opponent won't get to see 5 cards and Tom can save a lot of $$$ if an A or K hits the flop.

i think this is the correct play IF Tom is "sure" his opponent has AK (which i think is bs to begin with); Tom was just committed to the hand imo.

conclusion: horrible play

i don't understand all the controversy
he felt strongly that he had an edge and backed it with his stack
what's the big deal?

On March 24 2006 22:19 fira wrote: conclusion: horrible play

I don't agree at all.
How can it be a better play to fold the better hand?
I don't see how it can be a horrible play to put your opponent on the exact cards he has.

On March 25 2006 00:46 Galdred wrote: I don't see how it can be a horrible play to put your opponent on the exact cards he has.

*cough* results oriented *end cough now*

result oriented is if you hit a straight after raising PF with a crap hand.
It has nothing to do with the result in this situation.
He called a semi bluff and won.

His hand was stronger at the time he bet.
If he had been stacked because his opponent had flopped an ace it would still have been a good play.

On March 25 2006 04:28 Galdred wrote: result oriented is if you hit a straight after raising PF with a crap hand. It has nothing to do with the result in this situation. He called a semi bluff and won. His hand was stronger at the time he bet. If he had been stacked because his opponent had flopped an ace it would still have been a good play.

lol

LOL

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

and thats just for ur first sentence of inane babble, dont even get me started on how you think his opponent was "semi bluffing" preflop.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Hello

U suck

Goodbye

sum1 s diggn

LOL what a great thread :-)

hahaha im so glad this got bumped

this was so fun to read

i think the only reason tom made this thread is cuz TT = TalentedTom anyways

Interesting HU play...
I like it

good play

he won the hand right??

im not being results orientated.

I don't get it. This discussion is just insane for me.

No matter how great you are a player, you are simply not going to put your opponent on a hand 100%, especially online. Anyone claiming this is most certainly wrong. TalentedTom hasn't even put up any real _reason_ that could've made him think the guy was on AK.

Maybe playing this had other valid reasons besides the odds on that single hand - table image is one thing that comes to my mind. However, these are external considerations that don't make the play per se correct.

this must be toms magic secret

classic thread though, such a fun read

I think this hand would be easier for people to understand if they considered it more like a tournament hand. In big tournies we see these kind of plays back and forth all the time in SB vs BB battles. Tom says he has intimate knowledge of his opponent and this particular situation then so be it. I think the only really interesting thing about this hand is that many of us would consider it the optimal play to bet/push a flop that lacks an A or a K.

In fact if you want to get an even better analogy for undertanding this hand on Tom's level, most of us watch high stakes poker right? Think of Eli Elezra vs. Sammy Farha preflop in a SB vs BB confrontation.

Farha does this with 3c8c and Elezra pushes over top with air. *shrugs*

I think the real reason everyone is flaming Tom here is because everything that happened in this hand goes against the fundamentals of simple ABC poker that we know and trust to make us money in the long run. The hand offends everything we assume we know about poker PF.

this thread makes me miss rekrul