Truth Discussion Time - Page 47

I don't really understand the question. People want fiber because it's good for you? What does it change if you're a gym goer or not? Oatmeal's a great breakfast for a lot of athletes because it's nutritious and it sustains your energy levels for a long time. It's the most common breakfast among Tour de France cyclists. Why would it make more sense to not have fiber in a powerbar?

On October 06 2017 19:24 Loco wrote: Another thing you get backward. Cooking meat makes it more digestible and easier to extract calories and nutrients from. It's also safer. There is no good reason to eat raw meat unless you're starving to death. I know it makes you feel manly but it's actually unbelievably dumb.

I wouldn't go full sv3rige but there has always been some raw meat in traditional diets obviously it needs to be good quality. There are certain things you get from raw and vice versa that you don't get from cooked or rather as much of certain things. It's the same with vegetables.

On October 06 2017 19:45 VanDerMeyde wrote: Show nested quote + On October 06 2017 19:25 Loco wrote:   On October 06 2017 17:59 VanDerMeyde wrote:   On October 06 2017 15:30 Mortensen8 wrote: That sounds dangerous man haven't you lost 45kg already how much did you weigh? Don't worry about having too much fat Europeans are supposed to have some to protect from cold, just keep the window open and eat as much as you want I guess I can't relate since I was always thin but you sound like you might be taking this too far. The danger is that you are depleting your probably already bad reserves of vitamins and minerals. I would suggest eating extremely nutrient dense food now after you have done this all from healthy organic animals, organs, raw milk and cream (if you can get it if not dont eat dairy), raw eggs, seafood. Apparently some norwegian cheese called jarl something was highest in k2 in the world but I can't handle cheese my body detoxes it out of my fucking skin and I get spots haven't tried raw though. hehe I was waaay too much, lets put it that way :D Still there is a decent amount left. Maybe I will post before/after picture later on when im done. Jarlsberg cheese is very good Also post your blood tests with CRP levels. You claim your diet is so good, I'm sure you'll have no problem proving it with more than just temporary weight loss. Yeah thats fine weirdo. If it turns you on ill post my blood value :D

Ask him to post his sperm motility results.

The blood work is important because it is objective. The thing with many diets is that there can be a religious aspect to them. When one sees results it just affirms these beliefs. It feels really good to lose weight, feel better, look good. I know when I could fit into sexy jeans and look good in a t shirt it feels pretty good. I start to see the demarcations of abs and it feels like this diet is really getting me somewhere. I am getting to real fighting weight and nothing can stop me now. It may be a bit harder but I could have achieved all this on a bacon diet. In many ways I was on a bacon diet. I was eating it every morning for breakfast. Chicken and fatty ribeyes. Throwing in some vegetables (with loads of butter or evoo) just as long as I keep the carbs below whatever I was doing. Most days I pushed it to the low end. I would fast. The fasting and the long hikes certainly played a role. I had my idols: Mark Sisson and Tait Fletcher among others. When the topic of cholesterol came up they always gave bullshit answers about the small dense cholesterol and the large fluffy cholesterol. They didn't trust blood work. They would only trust ultrasounds of the arteries (which they didn't get). For some reason they believed that their arteries were full of the large fluffy variety even at 300 total cholesterol. That is the delusional religious aspect to a lot of these diets that I am talking about.

I know my cholesterol tends to be high. It was sky high after 6 months or so eating paleo. 6 months of whole food, plant based diet cleaned that up. It gets bad again if I start eating hedonistically. 6 months of whole food, plant based diet cleans it up. I would temporarily lose weight if I went back to eating paleo but I already know I would be killing myself faster. I don't think it is as bad as smoking (which would help me lose weight too) but it is a similar effect. The hard truth is that it is the smart thing to do to find some sustainable way to eat that is not paleo/keto. It can be a hard pill to swallow.

On October 07 2017 01:37 Mortensen8 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 06 2017 19:45 VanDerMeyde wrote:   On October 06 2017 19:25 Loco wrote:   On October 06 2017 17:59 VanDerMeyde wrote:   On October 06 2017 15:30 Mortensen8 wrote: That sounds dangerous man haven't you lost 45kg already how much did you weigh? Don't worry about having too much fat Europeans are supposed to have some to protect from cold, just keep the window open and eat as much as you want I guess I can't relate since I was always thin but you sound like you might be taking this too far. The danger is that you are depleting your probably already bad reserves of vitamins and minerals. I would suggest eating extremely nutrient dense food now after you have done this all from healthy organic animals, organs, raw milk and cream (if you can get it if not dont eat dairy), raw eggs, seafood. Apparently some norwegian cheese called jarl something was highest in k2 in the world but I can't handle cheese my body detoxes it out of my fucking skin and I get spots haven't tried raw though. hehe I was waaay too much, lets put it that way :D Still there is a decent amount left. Maybe I will post before/after picture later on when im done. Jarlsberg cheese is very good Also post your blood tests with CRP levels. You claim your diet is so good, I'm sure you'll have no problem proving it with more than just temporary weight loss. Yeah thats fine weirdo. If it turns you on ill post my blood value :D Ask him to post his sperm motility results.

and he is taking samples in the back of his throat

On October 07 2017 15:21 RiKD wrote: The blood work is important because it is objective. The thing with many diets is that there can be a religious aspect to them. When one sees results it just affirms these beliefs. It feels really good to lose weight, feel better, look good. I know when I could fit into sexy jeans and look good in a t shirt it feels pretty good. I start to see the demarcations of abs and it feels like this diet is really getting me somewhere. I am getting to real fighting weight and nothing can stop me now. It may be a bit harder but I could have achieved all this on a bacon diet. In many ways I was on a bacon diet. I was eating it every morning for breakfast. Chicken and fatty ribeyes. Throwing in some vegetables (with loads of butter or evoo) just as long as I keep the carbs below whatever I was doing. Most days I pushed it to the low end. I would fast. The fasting and the long hikes certainly played a role. I had my idols: Mark Sisson and Tait Fletcher among others. When the topic of cholesterol came up they always gave bullshit answers about the small dense cholesterol and the large fluffy cholesterol. They didn't trust blood work. They would only trust ultrasounds of the arteries (which they didn't get). For some reason they believed that their arteries were full of the large fluffy variety even at 300 total cholesterol. That is the delusional religious aspect to a lot of these diets that I am talking about. I know my cholesterol tends to be high. It was sky high after 6 months or so eating paleo. 6 months of whole food, plant based diet cleaned that up. It gets bad again if I start eating hedonistically. 6 months of whole food, plant based diet cleans it up. I would temporarily lose weight if I went back to eating paleo but I already know I would be killing myself faster. I don't think it is as bad as smoking (which would help me lose weight too) but it is a similar effect. The hard truth is that it is the smart thing to do to find some sustainable way to eat that is not paleo/keto. It can be a hard pill to swallow.

Well, there is good cholesterol and there is bad cholesterol... If HDL is high you are fine, its bad if LDL is high. Did your make that disctinction ?

Good to hear that plant based diet works for you ! Im basicly eating that myself, but with some meat, eggs, cheese, dairy, a lot of healthy fats etc thrown in there. But TON of salads and vegetables when I eat.

Where did this term "healthy" fat come from?

I mean I realize that eating macadamia nuts and avocados is going to be beneficial but it seems like everything is branched into this umbrella of "healthy" fat.

Plant based diet works for me except for the fact I can never stay on it. I am 6'2'' and weigh 200 lbs. 190 I will technically no longer be considered overweight and my clothes will fit much better. 180 and I am getting down to my fighting weight in jiu jitsu. Ideal is probably 170 lbs. I could water cut to 155 lbs. I start to see abs and am put together pretty well. I don't even do mixed martial arts anymore so I don't see why that matters. 170 seems out of reach unless I am competing in bjj/mma. 160 I start getting pretty damn skinny. I realize in Okinawa 100 years ago I would probably be 150 and at peak health. I think I weighed 170 in high school when I was playing lacrosse at a high level. That is probably my ideal although I was not done growing until college. I think I gained 40 lbs. my freshman year of college being a hedonist consumer of food. Then I was obsessed with lifting weights, powerlifting, bodybuilding. The point is I've yo yo'd many times from all the way down to 150-160 to 210-220 or so. The standard western diet and hedonistic eating always gets me. The dieting portion is more just about determination and eating x amount. Typically some form of calorie reduction through many different ways.

I think the main argument is that you get probably about 10 more years of quality with a whole food, plant based diet. I don't think I really care about that until I get a health scare. It seems that you are the same way. Most are probably that way.

"Healthy fats" assume there are unhealthy fats. And thats true when we look at trans fat. Its NOT true that butter from grass feed cows or coconut oil is unhealthy. So when I say healthy fats i mean basicly non-trans fats. Saturated fats are not good in combination with sugar and high intake of carbs also.

Coconut oil and grass fed cow butter are not eating donuts but they certainly aren't "healthy." They are primarily empty calories. That is one of the religious beliefs of keto/paleo. Add coconut oil and butter to everything! It would be better to just add more broccoli to the meal and use oils and fats sparingly. I used to drench my vegetables with oils and butter and take pleasure in it. The fact that I was losing weight made it seem that everything was ok. The fact is it's empty calories and certainly not healthy. I ate a blueberry muffin this morning for breakfast. I am not under the illusion that it is healthy. Eat how you want to eat, my message is just know that just because a certain diet is causing you to lose weight does not mean everything under the hood is perfect. It is leading to heart disease and cancers. If you are ok with that cool. The point is you can't call a keto/paleo diet healthy. Animal products are not healthy. Oils and butter are not healthy. Keto/paleo is like a cool cult to lose weight but it is simply that. The problem is you gotta get out of the cult or you will die early.

butter is like cow urine, how do you not vomit?

On October 09 2017 11:49 VanDerMeyde wrote: "Healthy fats" assume there are unhealthy fats. And thats true when we look at trans fat. Its NOT true that butter from grass feed cows or coconut oil is unhealthy. So when I say healthy fats i mean basicly non-trans fats. Saturated fats are not good in combination with sugar and high intake of carbs also.

You're eating trans fats every day by consuming the animal products you claim are healthy, you're just ignorant about it. Naturally occurring trans fats from animal products appear to be just as damaging as the ones from processed industrial oils.

Can you show us the evidence that coconut oil and butter are healthy? By evidence, I mean actual scientific papers that deals with this question, not videos of people talking about how the government screwed up by saying processed oils are better for you, or videos of people saying "I've been eating it for 10 years and I'm fine". The latest review in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology says that coconut oil should be avoided. What counter-evidence do you have?

If you don't like to read, here's the picture included in the review I linked above which sums it up:

Ok, I have got some things I would like to delve a little deeper in. Get some "truth" on some matters relevant to discussion recently in this thread. It relates to my life but maybe we can all learn something.

On August 13, 2016 my blood work was:

Overall: 273
HDL: 47
LDL: 201
Triglycerides: 124

That was coming off of about 6 months of eating paleo/keto.

On March 21, 2017 my blood work was:

Overall: 181
HDL: 41
LDL: 119
Triglycerides: 105

Over that 9 months I was eating whole food, plant based more than I was not. I don't remember the breakdown. I would eat 100% WFPB for months and then go a month or 2 of relapse.

On August 29, 2017 my blood work was:

Overall: 259
HDL: 46
LDL: 161
Triglycerides: 260

This is basically 6 months of eating a hedonistic Southern diet.

So, I have my PCP appointment today. My doctor wants to put me on Lipitor but his specific suggestion was to watch the bread? Bread, pasta, potatoes to be exact. He didn't mention anything at all about animal products or added fats and oils, fried foods but simply bread. He said carbohydrates were the reason for my elevated levels. This was my first time seeing this guy. Do I need to find a new doctor?

How does cholesterol even work? Is my heart in danger? I don't want to take the Lipitor and I want to find a new doctor. The problem is I don't want to stop eating the crap and get back on a whole food, plant based diet. The cholesterol is damaging my arteries. The Lipitor will reduce inflammation which always seems to be a good thing in the body. I need to learn more about this. It might be time to put in another push to lower cholesterol and losing some weight. We really shouldn't be eating animal products but why do I have this thing inside of me that doesn't want to quit it. I am addicted. I am programmed. I wish society made it easier to not eat animal products. I need a vegan girlfriend. I am weak. I am pathetic. I'll probably eat a burger with fries and a milkshake tonight or hushpuppies, shrimp and grits and a bottomless sweet tea. I loathe myself. I am killing myself but who the fuck cares if I am 90 and walking around doing stuff? Food is one of the few pleasures I seem to have these days. God, I am fucking addicted. I was 207 on the scale today midday in shoes and no one said anything about my weight. How could that not come up. I don't exercise and they are telling me I am in great shape. Luckily my blood pressure was perfect. That seems to be the only thing they were going off of. Oh well, I've said enough.

Stop eating bread and potatoes and carbohydrates? Really? How perfect for this state of this discussion. A doctor basically telling me I should go paleo/keto.

Fat soluble vitamins

I mean, since you apparently don't have the motivation to change your habits, just take the drugs. Do some research on them if you're unsure. If those drugs cause some bad effects then maybe your motivation will come back.

Your doctor knows next to nothing about nutrition. He wasn't taught nutrition. What he's telling you is what he thinks will be easiest for you to do. It's a workable goal that will improve your numbers. Lots of people manage to motivate themselves to stop eating white bread and other refined grains, and it certainly helps, so it's just easy advice to give. You know there's more to the story than that though.

I'm going to say this for the last time RiKD: you are bullshitting yourself with the whole "Do I really want to live to 90?!" You probably know this already but I feel obliged to say it again because you're basically crying for help here. We've talked about this at length in the thread already: it's about healthspan, not lifespan. What you really don't want is to be dependant on a cocktail of medications -- some of which are barely effective at reducing your risk of illness/premature death and most of which have unpleasant side effects.

What you should be telling yourself is, "do I want to have erectile dysfunction because I like to pig out on unhealthy food every day?" or "Do I want to risk having a stroke that will leave me partly paralyzed?" "Do I want to spend years in physical rehabilitation?" "Do I want my joints to feel like they're on fire all the time?" "Do I want to trigger an autoimmune disease that makes it so I have to go to the bathroom 20 to 30 times a day?" Make a list of all the things that can happen to you if you don't change your habits. A realistic list. Then maybe you'll snap out of this delusion that it's just all about those last ten years of life being cut short.

On October 09 2017 23:11 Loco wrote: I mean, since you apparently don't have the motivation to change your habits, just take the drugs. Do some research on them if you're unsure. If those drugs cause some bad effects then maybe your motivation will come back. Your doctor knows next to nothing about nutrition. He wasn't taught nutrition. What he's telling you is what he thinks will be easiest for you to do. It's a workable goal that will improve your numbers. Lots of people manage to motivate themselves to stop eating white bread and other refined grains, and it certainly helps, so it's just easy advice to give. You know there's more to the story than that though. I'm going to say this for the last time RiKD: you are bullshitting yourself with the whole "Do I really want to live to 90?!" We've talked about this at length in the thread already: it's about healthspan, not lifespan. What you really don't want is to be dependant on a cocktail of medications that have a bunch of unpleasant side effects and that never treat the underlying cause of your problems. What you should be telling yourself is "do I want to have erectile dysfunction because I like to pig out on unhealthy food every day?" or "Do I want to risk having a stroke that will leave me partly paralyzed?" "Do I want to spend years in physical rehabilitation?" Make a list of all the things that can happen to you if you don't change your habits. A realistic list. Then maybe you'll snap out of this delusion that it's just all about those last ten years of life being cut short.

amen brethen, keep preaching

On October 09 2017 23:11 Loco wrote: I mean, since you apparently don't have the motivation to change your habits, just take the drugs. Do some research on them if you're unsure. If those drugs cause some bad effects then maybe your motivation will come back. Your doctor knows next to nothing about nutrition. He wasn't taught nutrition. What he's telling you is what he thinks will be easiest for you to do. It's a workable goal that will improve your numbers. Lots of people manage to motivate themselves to stop eating white bread and other refined grains, and it certainly helps, so it's just easy advice to give. You know there's more to the story than that though.[/qoute] If I were to stop eating baked potatoes and sweet potatoes it would reduce my cholesterol? I don't really understand triglycerides so I will just leave it at I don't understand triglycerides. I just couldn't believe he told me carbs were the problem and made no mention of the fact I am likely 20+ lbs overweight. Telling me I am in great shape when the other day it was difficult for me to run maybe 400m to catch a boat. [quote] I'm going to say this for the last time RiKD: you are bullshitting yourself with the whole "Do I really want to live to 90?!" We've talked about this at length in the thread already: it's about healthspan, not lifespan. What you really don't want is to be dependant on a cocktail of medications that have a bunch of unpleasant side effects and that never treat the underlying cause of your problems. What you should be telling yourself is "do I want to have erectile dysfunction because I like to pig out on unhealthy food every day?" or "Do I want to risk having a stroke that will leave me partly paralyzed?" "Do I want to spend years in physical rehabilitation?" Make a list of all the things that can happen to you if you don't change your habits. A realistic list. Then maybe you'll snap out of this delusion that it's just all about those last ten years of life being cut short.

Did I write it that way? "Do I really want to live to 90?" I usually add some comment about quality. Healthspan is assumed. I have spoken on here about cancers and heart disease at earlier ages. No, I do not want strokes in my 50s. My parents don't have any issues and my dad was obese his whole life so I don't really see the problems first hand. My sister in laws dad had a really bad stroke recently and that seemed troublesome for the family to go through. It was pretty shitty for maybe even a few weeks before he eventually died. I think he was late 50s. Real American meat and potatoes kind of guy. I don't even know if he ate vegetables. I didn't even see it in any of my grandparents. My grandfather was even an alcoholic his whole life and he really didn't encounter too much trouble besides just old age. My grandmother was pretty fit and active into her 80s. My other grandmother is still going strong at 87 with a pretty bad diet her whole life. My grandfather maybe died a little soon but had quality of life up until that point. I guess I don't really see or am even aware of what can happen if I don't change my habits.

Also, I am not sure if you would know this but I think I might have read it in a Dr. Fuhrman book. Whoever it was they said they had never seen a heart attack or stroke in someone with an ldl level of less than 100 or something like that. Maybe it was total cholesterol at less than 150. That is really the only reason to care about cholesterol?

anecdotally anything can happen. statistically a healtier diet is more likely to lead to significantly better twilight years. I mean my buddy's granddad is 103 years old, still sharp and active, and he's been a steak and potatoes kind of guy all his life. But seems like that guy definitely won the gene lottery. Juxtaposition 100 80 year olds with bad diets next to 100 80 year olds with good diets and you won't have any problem seeing which group is which.

What I'm curious about is to what degree you can negate a bad diet through exercise. My impression is that some negative aspects of red meat consumption in particular can't really be countered, but stuff like too much butter can to a large degree be handled through burning more calories. But I have no real idea, this is just my impression.

"Evidence of harm: egg and coconuts". HAHAHA. People still believe that bullshit? really ? 1400 studies show all the great health benefits from coconut oil. But it's okey, enjoy the eggwhites LP. I'll eat the eggyolks for ya. These fats are only bad og your diet is terrible otherwise and loaded with sugar/carbs

Use some common sense for christ sake. If eggs and meat were harmfull foods our ancestors would not survive and we would not be here. 400 grams of carbs per day in the western diet is the reason for out health our problems