Greek crisis: Banks shut for a week - Page 2

dont get defensive, i m talking about EU representatives

but while we are at it:
10% golden dawn: scary
36% syriza (aka The Coalition of the Radical Left lol): standard, nothing to worry about

some flawed thinking right there

Because the extermination of Jews is on par with actually paying out pensions.

Golden Dawn

Scholars and media have described it as neo-Nazi and fascist though the group rejects these labels.

+ Show Spoiler +

whats ur point mcnasty? all i m trying to say is that while communism and nazism are both equally dangerous left-winged ideologies, communism is actually widely accepted even with 100M+ casulties worldwide and co-starting ww2

Sunday the 5th of July Greece is having the first referendum since 1974.
People are asked to vote YES if they want to stick to euro and the austerity measures IMF World bank and European leadership is suggesting in order to keep getting loans/paying loans
or NO if they feel like the measures are just too much.

Real problem is that whatever the IMF troika has been suggesting over the last 5 years is clearly making the debt unsustainable and their lives worse.
More salary/pension cuts , more taxes less funding.
Unfortunately there's no government that can fix such an economy with such debt.(174% of GDP atm...)

Greek government decided to start a revolution vs the modern world banking and IMF but I'm afraid there's no nation able to fight those guys anymore...

The future of economies having similar problems in euro-zone like Ireland,Portugal or even bigger economies like Spain and Italy
depends of the outcome of Greece's happy or not so happy end as they will choose wisely next time they will be asked/forced to further cuts or austerity measures for their people.

On June 29 2015 17:46 dogmeat wrote: dont get defensive, i m talking about EU representatives but while we are at it: 10% golden dawn: scary 36% syriza (aka The Coalition of the Radical Left lol): standard, nothing to worry about some flawed thinking right there

-- while I don't especially like suriza because I think they are populists and they have a generous number of stupid people in their ranks, overall they are left socialists who don't believe in fighting against capitalism in the way communist parties do.
36% is obvious not marxist or maoist, they are people who came to syriza mostly from pasok after the latter took the blame for the shithole the country turned into after decades of running it alongside new democracy. Syriza gained all these people in their ranks by managing to stay vague enough in what they collectively stand for and actually believe. Why would the majority of syriza voters possibly want to stay in the EU/Euro if they were maoists or marxists as you say?
There are about 16(!) different political components in suriza and maoist/marxists are only a small part of them; well, to be fair "marxist" can be a very broad term nowadays and it includes people who aren't communists so I'm not really sure on exactly how big or small that component is. But I don't think anyone in the group of people who negotiated for Greece ever said anything even close to anti capitalistic or maoist

They get shat on for this by the communist party of greece all the time (KKE). Just yesterday KKE accused them of being the new pasok and voted no to syriza's referendum proposal because they demanded that the vote included syriza's own "harsh measures" which btw were considered harsh by ALL the political parties in Greece.

Why didn't the EU accept this proposal or work on it further? Because when suriza offered some harsh measures on their own, troika thought it's a good idea to scrap all 5 months of negotiations (while the current program was running out) and offer an ultimatum that would make suriza look bad (also brought on by the party's own populism too admittedly) and inevitably fall from power, as time was running out for Greece (also to an extent syriza's fault). The IMF didn't accept equivalent measures to the ones the institutions had proposed, which is something that has never happened to any other country.
Then, 2 days after the announcement of the referendum by Tsipras they took the ultimatum back and started claiming that they had proposed a "softer" version of memorandum -which was always under discussion- and also had solutions on the debt sustainability but the greeks walked out, meaning that they did everything to make the greek government look like unreal retards and asked the greek people to vote yes. The least you can say about this is that these moves are economically and socially irresponsible, even if you don't like left politicians.

Such moves work on people who casually watch the news, but not on those who notice the details of what happens and that's why you see a series of nobel prize winners etc putting the blame for no deal not on the evil "maoists", but on the institutions.

On the other hand of what you mentioned you have dudes who vote for nazis and feel like the have devine blood and it's their duty to cleanse Greece from eg antifascist rappers like Paulos Fyssas who was murdered a while back.
When golden dawn first got a ton of votes, many thought it was because people don't know what they stand for. A few murders away and after enough coverage by the media it's safe to say that their ranks have grown and that nobody cares they're nazis...

Players have been wondering why i have been so (insanely) vocal about "ideal money" by john nash, and finally as time passes things get easier to read. Nash should be a significant name to poker players for his work on game theory. Take a quick skim at the relevance of his points from a greek or euro citizen point of view:

________________________________________________________________
… I wish to present the argument that various interests and groups, notably including “Keynesian” economists, have sold to the public a “quasi-doctrine” which teaches, in effect, that “less is more” or that (in other words) “bad money” is better than “good money”.

So let us define “Keynesian”…

…a “Keynesian” would favor the existence of a “manipulative” state establishment of central bank and treasury which would continuously seek to achieve “economic welfare” objectives with comparatively little regard for the long term reputation of the national currency…

…it is sometimes remarkable how political contexts can evolve. And in relation to that I think that it is possible that “the Keynesians” are like a political faction that will become less influential as a result of political evolution.

The Keynesians implicitly always have the argument that some good managers can do things of beneficial value, operating with the treasury and the central bank, and that it is not needed or appropriate for the citizenry or the “customers” of the currency supplied by the state to actually understand, while the managers are managing, what exactly they are doing and how it will affect the “pocketbook” circumstances of these customers.

The idea seems paradoxical, but by speaking of “inflation targeting” these responsible officials are effectively CONFESSING that, notwithstanding how they formerly were speaking about the difficulties and problems of their functions, that it is indeed after all possible to control inflation by controlling the supply of money (as if by limiting the amount of individual “prints” that could be made of a work of art being produced as “prints”).

…while they have claimed to be operating for high and noble objectives of general welfare what is clearly true is that they have made it easier for governments to “print money”.

(1): Games with transferable utility.
(and)
(2): Games without transferable utility

In the world of practical realities it is money which typically causes the existence of a game of type (1) rather than of type (2); money is the “lubrication” which enables the efficient “transfer of utility”. And generally if games can be transformed from type (2) to type (1) there is a gain, on average, to all the players in terms of whatever might be expected to be the outcome.

We can legitimately wonder how the speediness of its adoption or delays in its adoption might affect the policies operating to control the actual exchange value of the euro. The constitutional structure of the authority behind the euro is of the “paper money” character in that nothing is really guaranteed as far as the value of the euro is concerned. But this is typical of all currencies used in the world nowadays.

So here is the possibility of “asymptotically ideal money”. Starting with the idea of value stabilization in relation to a domestic price index associated with the territory of one state, beyond that there is the natural and logical concept of internationally based value comparisons. The currencies being compared, like now the euro, the dollar, the yen, the pound, the swiss franc, the swedish kronor, etc. can be viewed with critical eyes by their users and by those who may have the option of whether or not or how to use one of them. This can lead to pressure for good quality and consequently for a lessened rate of inflationary depreciation in value.

But it seems very likely that, although that scheme for arranging for a system of money with ideal qualities would work well, that, on the other hand, it would be politically difficult to arrive at the implementation of such a system.

And also, if we view money as of importance in connection with transfers of utility, we can see that money itself is a sort of “utility”, using the word in another sense, comparable to supplies of water, electric energy or telecommunications. And then, if we think about it, money itself is a sort of “utility”, using the word in another sense, comparable to supplies of water, electric energy or telecommunicationswe can consider the quality of money as comparable to the quality of some “public utility” like the supply of electric energy or of water.

And what I want to suggest is that “the public” or the users, those for whom a medium of exchange functions as a basic utility, may develop opinions that are critical of currencies of lower “value quality”. That is, the public may learn to demand better quality of that which CAN be managed to be of better quality or which can be managed to be of the lower quality observed in so many of the various national currencies in the 20th century.

his variety of money would be intrinsically free of ”inflationary decadence” similarly to how money would be free from that on a true “gold standard”, but the proposed basis for that was not the proposal of a linkage to gold.

…it can be said that they tend to think in terms of government agencies operating in a benevolent fashion that is, however, beyond the comprehension of the citizens of the state.

(All over the world varieties of states make claims to have governments very properly or even ideally devoted to the interests of the citizens or nationals of those states and always an externally located critic can argue that the government is actually a sort of despotism.)

Our view is that if it is viewed scientifically and rationally (which is psychologically difficult!) that money should have the function of a standard of measurement and thus that it should become comparable to the watt or the hour or a degree of temperature.

For example, if all sorts of non-European countries decided to define the values of their currencies as on a par with the euro, without actually joining into any system of cooperative regulations associated with that, then the effect of that would seem likely to destabilize the stability of the euro if it would otherwise be highly stable and of good value quality.

In the near future there may be a smaller number of major currencies used in the world and these may stand in competitive relations among themselves. There is now the “euro” and the old inflationary history of the Italian lira is past history now. And there COULD be introduced, for example, a similar international currency for the Islamic world or for South Asia, or for South America, or here or there.

And this parallel makes it seem not implausible that a process of political evolution might lead to the expectation on the part of citizens in the “great democracies” that they should be better situated to be able to understand whatever will be the monetary policies which, indeed, are typically of great importance to citizens who may have alternative options for where to place their “savings”.
___________________________________________________________________________

The conversation certainly isn't going to go away, and its very relevant to each and everyone of us with respect to each and every national/fiat currency. For poker players its just all the more relevant!

On June 29 2015 19:47 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On June 29 2015 17:46 dogmeat wrote: dont get defensive, i m talking about EU representatives but while we are at it: 10% golden dawn: scary 36% syriza (aka The Coalition of the Radical Left lol): standard, nothing to worry about some flawed thinking right there -- while I don't especially like suriza because I think they are populists and they have a generous number of stupid people in their ranks, overall they are left socialists who don't believe in fighting against capitalism in the way communist parties do. 36% is obvious not marxist or maoist, they are people who came to syriza mostly from pasok after the latter took the blame for the shithole the country turned into after decades of running it alongside new democracy. Syriza gained all these people in their ranks by managing to stay vague enough in what they collectively stand for and actually believe. Why would the majority of syriza voters possibly want to stay in the EU/Euro if they were maoists or marxists as you say? There are about 16(!) different political components in suriza and maoist/marxists are only a small part of them; well, to be fair "marxist" can be a very broad term nowadays and it includes people who aren't communists so I'm not really sure on exactly how big or small that component is. But I don't think anyone in the group of people who negotiated for Greece ever said anything even close to anti capitalistic or maoist They get shat on for this by the communist party of greece all the time (KKE). Just yesterday KKE accused them of being the new pasok and voted no to syriza's referendum proposal because they demanded that the vote included syriza's own "harsh measures" which btw were considered harsh by ALL the political parties in Greece. Why didn't the EU accept this proposal or work on it further? Because when suriza offered some harsh measures on their own, troika thought it's a good idea to scrap all 5 months of negotiations (while the current program was running out) and offer an ultimatum that would make suriza look bad (also brought on by the party's own populism too admittedly) and inevitably fall from power, as time was running out for Greece (also to an extent syriza's fault). They didn't accept equivalent measures to the ones the institutions had proposed, which is something that has never happened to any other country. Then, 2 days after the announcement of the referendum by Tsipras they took the ultimatum back and started claiming that they had proposed a "softer" version of memorandum -which was always under discussion- and also had solutions on the debt sustainability but the greeks walked out, meaning that they did everything to make the greek government look like unreal retards and asked the greek people to vote yes. The least you can say about this is that these moves are economically and socially irresponsible, even if you don't like left politicians. Such moves work on people who casually watch the news, but not on those who notice the details of what happens and that's why you see a series of nobel prize winners etc putting the blame for no deal not on the evil "maoists", but on the institutions. On the other hand of what you mentioned you have dudes who vote for nazis and feel like the have devine blood and it's their duty to cleanse Greece from eg antifascist rappers like Paulos Fyssas who was murdered a while back. When golden dawn first got a ton of votes, many thought it was because people don't know what they stand for. A few murders away and after enough coverage by the media it's safe to say that their ranks have grown and that nobody cares they're nazis...

i was reffering to eu representatives, ie barrosso, schulz,etc as marxists/mayoist, which you can verify using google. also me pointing out flawed thinking about nazism/communism is irrelevant here...
i dont want to disscuss greece with you b/c i think you are emotionally affected, i just find hilarious the general attitude from greece reps, making conditions on paying debts and the fact that you even think eu should even negotiate lol, greece should have gone busto 5years ago

What is really going on with Greece why are they so backwards and fucked up? I didn't think they were a 3rd world country but now it sounds like they are as shitty as the worst eastern european dumps. Goddamn black hole. Lazy population or corrupt government? I know Greece has a rich history and some beautiful places so I would figure they should have some economy. Olive oil and tourism

On June 29 2015 19:25 dogmeat wrote: whats ur point mcnasty? all i m trying to say is that while communism and nazism are both equally dangerous left-winged ideologies, communism is actually widely accepted even with 100M+ casulties worldwide and co-starting ww2

I mean there's a lot I disagree with the above but you're mainly just calling a random left wing European party communist and Maoist (weird) as if purging the bourgeoisie was part of their platform. Meanwhile the Golden Dawn is shaving their heads and using swastikas.

http://www.greanvillepost.com/2012/05/27/the-european-situation-syrizas-program/

Seems standard

define:mayoist
someone who loves mayo

There are a bunch of tldrs that im not going to read but the fact is this : Ireland was in a similiar situation when the crisis struck yet they are flourishing now
The problem here is Greece has the option between the very bad and the disastrous

@NMcNasty

I don't know if Golden Dawn uses swastikas or not (although I'm skeptical of that), but the image you linked is a called a greek meander, and it's a classic symbol from ancient Greece.

It will be pretty lame if somehow Golden Dawn gets the public to equate that to Nazism.

On June 29 2015 20:09 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On June 29 2015 19:47 lebowski wrote:   On June 29 2015 17:46 dogmeat wrote: dont get defensive, i m talking about EU representatives but while we are at it: 10% golden dawn: scary 36% syriza (aka The Coalition of the Radical Left lol): standard, nothing to worry about some flawed thinking right there -- while I don't especially like suriza because I think they are populists and they have a generous number of stupid people in their ranks, overall they are left socialists who don't believe in fighting against capitalism in the way communist parties do. 36% is obvious not marxist or maoist, they are people who came to syriza mostly from pasok after the latter took the blame for the shithole the country turned into after decades of running it alongside new democracy. Syriza gained all these people in their ranks by managing to stay vague enough in what they collectively stand for and actually believe. Why would the majority of syriza voters possibly want to stay in the EU/Euro if they were maoists or marxists as you say? There are about 16(!) different political components in suriza and maoist/marxists are only a small part of them; well, to be fair "marxist" can be a very broad term nowadays and it includes people who aren't communists so I'm not really sure on exactly how big or small that component is. But I don't think anyone in the group of people who negotiated for Greece ever said anything even close to anti capitalistic or maoist They get shat on for this by the communist party of greece all the time (KKE). Just yesterday KKE accused them of being the new pasok and voted no to syriza's referendum proposal because they demanded that the vote included syriza's own "harsh measures" which btw were considered harsh by ALL the political parties in Greece. Why didn't the EU accept this proposal or work on it further? Because when suriza offered some harsh measures on their own, troika thought it's a good idea to scrap all 5 months of negotiations (while the current program was running out) and offer an ultimatum that would make suriza look bad (also brought on by the party's own populism too admittedly) and inevitably fall from power, as time was running out for Greece (also to an extent syriza's fault). They didn't accept equivalent measures to the ones the institutions had proposed, which is something that has never happened to any other country. Then, 2 days after the announcement of the referendum by Tsipras they took the ultimatum back and started claiming that they had proposed a "softer" version of memorandum -which was always under discussion- and also had solutions on the debt sustainability but the greeks walked out, meaning that they did everything to make the greek government look like unreal retards and asked the greek people to vote yes. The least you can say about this is that these moves are economically and socially irresponsible, even if you don't like left politicians. Such moves work on people who casually watch the news, but not on those who notice the details of what happens and that's why you see a series of nobel prize winners etc putting the blame for no deal not on the evil "maoists", but on the institutions. On the other hand of what you mentioned you have dudes who vote for nazis and feel like the have devine blood and it's their duty to cleanse Greece from eg antifascist rappers like Paulos Fyssas who was murdered a while back. When golden dawn first got a ton of votes, many thought it was because people don't know what they stand for. A few murders away and after enough coverage by the media it's safe to say that their ranks have grown and that nobody cares they're nazis... i was reffering to eu representatives, ie barrosso, schulz,etc as marxists/mayoist, which you can verify using google. also me pointing out flawed thinking about nazism/communism is irrelevant here... i dont want to disscuss greece with you b/c i think you are emotionally affected, i just find hilarious the general attitude from greece reps, making conditions on paying debts and the fact that you even think eu should even negotiate lol, greece should have gone busto 5years ago

at this point I admit I am emotionally affected because I see people emptying super markets and atms and there's a definite fear of the unknown.
In what specific way does your emotional distance help you be more objective though?
Agreed on the nazism/communism comments being irrelevant, probably agreed on greek reps being hilarious thinking some sort of mutually beneficial understanding of democratic nature could come between those who lend and those in debt, when it's becoming obvious debt colonies are preferable to anything else. Going busto 5 years ago btw is exactly what the current finance minister of Greece was proposing at the time (see the famous middle finger video), agreed on that too.
But I honestly have no idea how maoism/marxism is affecting EU through those EU reps you mention, give me a couple of examples. I sincerely never heard of that before that's why I had trouble understanding what you mean

On June 29 2015 22:05 nolan wrote: @NMcNasty I don't know if Golden Dawn uses swastikas or not (although I'm skeptical of that), but the image you linked is a called a greek meander, and it's a classic symbol from ancient Greece. It will be pretty lame if somehow Golden Dawn gets the public to equate that to Nazism.

this is their number 3(?) in rank.
this is number 2

so yeah, they don't openly admit being the equivalent of nazis (they even say the sieg heil pose is ancient greek lol) but it's only to be a bit more flexible politically

People just look for their own interests, Greece government fucked everyone because they only pursued personal gain, so the only reasonable cure for the mess was severe spending cuts... but people dont give a flying fuck about the cure for the problem, they care about themselves so those measures affected them so they rioted non-stop so there isnt a real solution.

This is the reason why governments are evil, communists, fascists, democrats etc, because its human nature to seek personal gain over the well being of others, we are as species are not fit to rule over others.

soon we will have a perfect communism enforced by the machines let the collapse come and the bitcoins flow hail satan.

this guy looks half black LOL