Greek crisis: Banks shut for a week - Page 3

The people of Greece have been enjoying a high standard of living by means of finances from the EU which they haven't earned & weren't supposed to get anyway because they committed fraud to get into the EU. Government spending has been excessive to the point of unsustainability, the critical point has been reached. In order to pay for the spending austerity is needed. It is inevitable, paying back debt or leaving EU. Tsipras is a real fucking idiot, the way he carries himself is a disgrace.

I don't deny mistakes of the governments (and people) of the past but they are are mostly irrelevant to what's happening now.

It's wrong to speak as if austerity is the key to all of Greece's past mistakes and faults; the truth is that for 5 years people here have lived through the most fierce austerity measures than any other country under a program and it has brought destructive consequences that everyone accepts, not only the greek government. For all these years the greek governments silently accepted every austerity measure there is and it brought the economy down. There are people here who work hard all month they get 300 euros and yet the south still gets called lazy from reporters in countries were people work less
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17155304

Economists around the world are laughing when comparing the results to what was expected and the overall effectiveness of austerity measures as medicine is doubted:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2...ity-eurozone-disaster-joseph-stiglitz

Concerning Greece specifically I linked earlier the former IMF chief admitting that they fucked the economy with their bailout program and asking for debt relief and extending repayments

Why don't the institutions learn from their mistakes? A lot can be speculated but my point is that for people in Greece living like a debt colony money junkie with no possible future upswing through harsh austerity or grexiting with probable nightmarish consequences are the only 2 scenarios left right now


edit: meanwhile, where did the bailout money go? Only 10% went to system reforms, this was in essence a European bank bailout
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015.../where-did-the-greek-bailout-money-go

It is for sure a terrible event for the people. The whole eceonomy of Greece suffers. It is going to get a lot darker before there is light again. My opinion is that a grexit isn't as bad as it is made out to be. It will get really bad really fast in terms of foreign investors pulling out and all the dominoes that shall fall. Healing will occur after hitting rock bottom. A lot of reforms and other changes need to be made and i don't think Tsipras is up to the task. Winter is coming.
In the grand scheme of things it won't affect the global or european economy much. It has already been priced in. USD-EUR is a mix of events worthy of a thread of its own but Greece is rather insignificant.
Institutions in EU is a real problem, legislative and financial alike.

On June 30 2015 01:30 Baalim wrote: People just look for their own interests, Greece government fucked everyone because they only pursued personal gain, so the only reasonable cure for the mess was severe spending cuts... but people dont give a flying fuck about the cure for the problem, they care about themselves so those measures affected them so they rioted non-stop so there isnt a real solution. This is the reason why governments are evil, communists, fascists, democrats etc, because its human nature to seek personal gain over the well being of others, we are as species are not fit to rule over others.

Yea agreed with this. I do think there are a select handful of people somewhere in this world (not myself) who are intelligent enough, who truly care for others over themselves and value humanity as a whole above their own individual lives, who could rule. The selection process would be almost impossible though and you would have to fiND someone who checks all the boxes and also would not be corrupted once handeD the power. Some people are far more enlightened than the others but unfortunately for everyone they tend not to seek positiona of power as those that do generally do so for narcissistic egotistical self serving reasons.

Maybe some carefully created civil service examination (i'm talking brain scans and psychiatric evaluation on top of extensive testing etc. Not some multiple choice questionaire) could test the population and find someone(s) suitable

Democracy is kind of a joke though. Not all people are equal or even suitable to be making decisions that affect others. Maybe a democracy with minimum standard for permission to participate would be better than what we have now. Obviously no government or absolutely minimal government is the way to go though

Democracy is so often equated with freedom in this country it would make you think they were synonymous but they really have little to do with one another imo.

Our representatives in Washington continue to strip our freedoms using the tools of democracy and then tell us we asked for it when anyone complains

On June 29 2015 20:21 traxamillion wrote: What is really going on with Greece why are they so backwards and fucked up? I didn't think they were a 3rd world country but now it sounds like they are as shitty as the worst eastern european dumps. Goddamn black hole. Lazy population or corrupt government? I know Greece has a rich history and some beautiful places so I would figure they should have some economy. Olive oil and tourism

Ships/shipping and tourism are pretty important, and I think shipping isn't taxed? In general the government hasn't been enjoying much trust and there is a lot of corruption and tax evasion, they forged economic figures to get in to euro zone, euro zone meant cheap debt (from German and French banks mostly), budget deficits lead that the debt ends up being unpayable, bailouts force unpopular political decisions that plummet the GDP etc., Syriza gains popularity and the situation escalates here. Short one sentence description of the situation, it's not that simple of course. If there's some inaccuracy feel free to correct.

On June 30 2015 19:19 humPah wrote: Show nested quote + On June 29 2015 20:21 traxamillion wrote: What is really going on with Greece why are they so backwards and fucked up? I didn't think they were a 3rd world country but now it sounds like they are as shitty as the worst eastern european dumps. Goddamn black hole. Lazy population or corrupt government? I know Greece has a rich history and some beautiful places so I would figure they should have some economy. Olive oil and tourism Ships/shipping and tourism are pretty important, and I think shipping isn't taxed? In general the government hasn't been enjoying much trust and there is a lot of corruption and tax evasion, they forged economic figures to get in to euro zone, euro zone meant cheap debt (from German and French banks mostly), budget deficits lead that the debt ends up being unpayable, bailouts force unpopular political decisions that plummet the GDP etc., Syriza gains popularity and the situation escalates here. Short one sentence description of the situation, it's not that simple of course. If there's some inaccuracy feel free to correct.

taxes on ships and tourism are lower than what troika wants, the rest of what you say is true,the unpopular political decisions are unpopular because the economy broke down over 5 years of austerity and lots of people got really poor; also they weren't actually "decisions", the troika reps were pretty much doing whatever they wanted and that's what led to the demise of both pasok and nd parties (well ok, also their 20+ years of corrupt governing and never reforming played a big part as well)

On June 30 2015 20:55 lebowski wrote:the economy broke down over 5 years of austerity

you are hilarious, greece have negative balance of trade and basically only produces olive oil, went bankrupt 5 times in last 200 years etc, it has been broken for decades.

dont you feel bad for slovakia sendind 1mld euros to bail you? typical southern 'fuck you, pay me' mentality

stop making urself appear like a victim ffs

On June 30 2015 17:38 traxamillion wrote: Democracy is so often equated with freedom in this country it would make you think they were synonymous but they really have little to do with one another imo. Our representatives in Washington continue to strip our freedoms using the tools of democracy and then tell us we asked for it when anyone complains

America isn't a democracy, and it's very irrational that it this is taught in school, since the claim is false if you try to deduce it from its definition. 'Liberal democracy' is defined by political scientists as a society where people have an equal say in making decisions that affect them, and that people are the best judges of their own interest.

But research in political science finds that the poorest 70% of americans have no influence on policy, and while people are the best judges of their own interest, there's a massive industry, namely the PR industry devoted to turning people into voters against their own interest.

So in my view if western societies had an honest and rational school system for the humanities they would teach that we live in a plutocracy since their is more evidence for that.

I completely agree stroggoz if that wasn't clear. I used the word democracy just because that is what we call our government even if it isn't truly one

On July 01 2015 02:33 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On June 30 2015 20:55 lebowski wrote:the economy broke down over 5 years of austerity you are hilarious, greece have negative balance of trade and basically only produces olive oil, went bankrupt 5 times in last 200 years etc, it has been broken for decades. dont you feel bad for slovakia sendind 1mld euros to bail you? typical southern 'fuck you, pay me' mentality

I'm not a victim of the situation dude, I feel bad for all the victims around here though, something that obviously doesn't affect you.

Greece's biggest industry is tourism and they were asking 23% VAT from 6%. How was that going to help growth?
Germany has gone bankrupt 8 times the last 215 years, what is your point?
Did I ever suggest that things work well around here or that reforms are not needed? Only that the enforced measures brought terrible results,what works in one country doesn't necessarily work in another. I could start linking charts if you want.

Still waiting on examples of marxist/maoist EU reps destroying Europe btw

Austerity is a blatantly flawed, dumb, destructive economic policy and that much is quite obvious with a little thought. Saving does not lead to growth lol spending does. ANYWAYS, I think some people just wanted to shit on Greece and make it their bitch after they lied to get in the club.

On June 29 2015 03:42 lebowski wrote: Avg retirement age in Greece is almost the same with e.g Germany's ~64-65 years (retirement age right now is 67). From Eurostat's data on 2005 (before several consequent reforms) it was 61.9, while it was 61.8 for Germany

i remember reading an article about greece a while ago that said the avg. retirement age for jobs classified as 'arduous' was 55 for men and 50 for women. it said there's over 600 types of jobs considered arduous including stuff like hairdressers, radio announcers, musicians, etc. and generally made it sound like pretty much anything could fit the criteria. i don't know about what reforms took place after 2005, but do you think the retirement data would look significantly different now compared to 2005? or do you think the article was misleading with the way it referred to those jobs?

edit: found the article http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010 it's also a bit dated from 2010

Only that the enforced measures brought terrible results,what works in one country doesn't necessarily work in another. I could start linking charts if you want.

On the contrary, alot of accepted measures weren't enforced at all, and that is not an issue of the program itself.

On June 30 2015 17:30 traxamillion wrote: Show nested quote + On June 30 2015 01:30 Baalim wrote: People just look for their own interests, Greece government fucked everyone because they only pursued personal gain, so the only reasonable cure for the mess was severe spending cuts... but people dont give a flying fuck about the cure for the problem, they care about themselves so those measures affected them so they rioted non-stop so there isnt a real solution. This is the reason why governments are evil, communists, fascists, democrats etc, because its human nature to seek personal gain over the well being of others, we are as species are not fit to rule over others. Yea agreed with this. I do think there are a select handful of people somewhere in this world (not myself) who are intelligent enough, who truly care for others over themselves and value humanity as a whole above their own individual lives, who could rule. The selection process would be almost impossible though and you would have to fiND someone who checks all the boxes and also would not be corrupted once handeD the power. Some people are far more enlightened than the others but unfortunately for everyone they tend not to seek positiona of power as those that do generally do so for narcissistic egotistical self serving reasons. Maybe some carefully created civil service examination (i'm talking brain scans and psychiatric evaluation on top of extensive testing etc. Not some multiple choice questionaire) could test the population and find someone(s) suitable

Some very strange really honest people get in positions of power, they basically slip through the cracks of the corrupting system, a good example seems to be Uruguays president.

So yeah Im not saying NO human is fit to rule others, Im saying that the democratic and political system does not work, it doesnt put the best of us in power, but the worst

On June 30 2015 17:38 traxamillion wrote: Democracy is so often equated with freedom in this country it would make you think they were synonymous but they really have little to do with one another imo. Our representatives in Washington continue to strip our freedoms using the tools of democracy and then tell us we asked for it when anyone complains

Yeah its so bizarre that the word is associated with goodness, fairness and freedom and that is absolutely no true.

Even a direct democracy (actual vote on every decision) would be wrong, since a 51% majority could impose an injustice on a minority, and well a representative can do whatever the fuck he wants its ridiculous to think that because he managed to fool some people into casting votes that means that what he does is what the people want

On July 01 2015 17:34 traxamillion wrote: Austerity is a blatantly flawed, dumb, destructive economic policy and that much is quite obvious with a little thought. Saving does not lead to growth lol spending does. ANYWAYS, I think some people just wanted to shit on Greece and make it their bitch after they lied to get in the club.

This is a very flawed idea, first of all the spending leads to growth is a keynesian concept that does have applications but if taken just like that it leads to internal debt and eventual implosion, things that we will very likely witness in the Japanese and American economies.

Austerity is for the government budget, so they dont get into more debt, you need to cut heavily on social aid programs, and sure this will make the quality of life decline but once your economy is stable then you can rebuild properly again, spending when your debt is spiraling out of control is absurd, that would create an scenario of Zimbawe and Venezuela combined, hyperinflation where your money is worth less than the paper and people line up in stores for fucking toilet paper

Arguing with dogmeat is like a dog going in circles to catch its cock. You win at the end, but you still got a cock in your mouth