Greek crisis: Banks shut for a week - Page 4

Who is this Cypras you were talking about earlier Spitfiree ?

On June 30 2015 17:38 traxamillion wrote: Democracy is so often equated with freedom in this country it would make you think they were synonymous but they really have little to do with one another imo. Our representatives in Washington continue to strip our freedoms using the tools of democracy and then tell us we asked for it when anyone complains

At least we stopped the NSA wire tapping and did not renew the Patriot Act (I think). It is a small step back in the right direction, even though our politicians do whatever the fuck large donors want.

It is all about obtaining as much power as you can and keeping it.

But about that - did anyone else see the report the Spanish government released about Putin and his ties to the Russian mafia and their operations in Spain?

On July 02 2015 16:01 cariadon wrote: Who is this Cypras you were talking about earlier Spitfiree ?

Wasn't quite sure how their prime minister's name is written in English so thought Tsipras = Cypras :D

@chris links to ze report this seems interesting

On July 02 2015 21:22 Spitfiree wrote: Show nested quote + On July 02 2015 16:01 cariadon wrote: Who is this Cypras you were talking about earlier Spitfiree ? Wasn't quite sure how their prime minister's name is written in English so thought Tsipras = Cypras :D @chris links to ze report this seems interesting

so 80% of your info is complete misinformation?

Seems so, didn't know media here was that fucked especially considering a local problem
When I think about it again though it only seems natural :/

I don't understand, trax, one the one hand you're maligning democracy but the US is famous for being a republic and at the same time you're attacking the people wielding power in Washington

of course only the most delusional or least knowledgeable people think any pure form of government is sustainable, whether direct democracy (which I've heard somewhere like smartphones are supposed to let us return to Athenian democracy which is bullshit) or something else

but the point of having democratic elements in a government is the moment you start excluding people from participating, it's the people in power who just disenfranchise people they don't like

if there's a problem with the US it's this districting and redistricting bullshit. voting should just be plurality at the level of the office or "thing" that's being voted on. for instance, the electoral college can go fuck itself, it's the presidency, it's the 21st century, just take a popular vote. also congressional districts are bullshit, I don't know why a congressman represents a district, he should represent the state, those elections should just be state level pools

I think the USA has been in, or is coming out of, some kind of status quo addiction for decades. specifically the gauge I'm using is nobody wants to make a new flag or why hasn't there been a 51st state, like when is Puerto Rico going to become a state? people complain about imperialism but it seems to me more exploitative to keep these territories hanging around in limbo forever

also nice to see digger, I suspected an asymptotically ideal crypto-EU might come up

On July 02 2015 08:05 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On July 01 2015 17:34 traxamillion wrote: Austerity is a blatantly flawed, dumb, destructive economic policy and that much is quite obvious with a little thought. Saving does not lead to growth lol spending does. ANYWAYS, I think some people just wanted to shit on Greece and make it their bitch after they lied to get in the club. This is a very flawed idea, first of all the spending leads to growth is a keynesian concept that does have applications but if taken just like that it leads to internal debt and eventual implosion, things that we will very likely witness in the Japanese and American economies. Austerity is for the government budget, so they dont get into more debt, you need to cut heavily on social aid programs, and sure this will make the quality of life decline but once your economy is stable then you can rebuild properly again, spending when your debt is spiraling out of control is absurd, that would create an scenario of Zimbawe and Venezuela combined, hyperinflation where your money is worth less than the paper and people line up in stores for fucking toilet paper

That's completely false. The Austerity policy makes no sense as an economic policy. If you look at Greek debt it is higher now (relative to gdp) than when it started under the austerity policies. So the austerity has failed at what it was supposedly meant to do, get rid of the debt.

Sure that it makes sense. Austerity causes low inflation meaning the creditors are happy and living carefree.

The essence of such politics is quite obvious. Creditors don't care for the growth and prosperity of someone as long as they have their liquidity steady. Meaning austerity is extremely good or extremely bad, depends where you are sitting

On July 03 2015 18:24 Stroggoz wrote: Show nested quote + On July 02 2015 08:05 Baalim wrote:   On July 01 2015 17:34 traxamillion wrote: Austerity is a blatantly flawed, dumb, destructive economic policy and that much is quite obvious with a little thought. Saving does not lead to growth lol spending does. ANYWAYS, I think some people just wanted to shit on Greece and make it their bitch after they lied to get in the club. This is a very flawed idea, first of all the spending leads to growth is a keynesian concept that does have applications but if taken just like that it leads to internal debt and eventual implosion, things that we will very likely witness in the Japanese and American economies. Austerity is for the government budget, so they dont get into more debt, you need to cut heavily on social aid programs, and sure this will make the quality of life decline but once your economy is stable then you can rebuild properly again, spending when your debt is spiraling out of control is absurd, that would create an scenario of Zimbawe and Venezuela combined, hyperinflation where your money is worth less than the paper and people line up in stores for fucking toilet paper That's completely false. The Austerity policy makes no sense as an economic policy. If you look at Greek debt it is higher now (relative to gdp) than when it started under the austerity policies. So the austerity has failed at what it was supposedly meant to do, get rid of the debt.

I have no idea how they implemented austerity, so Im not saying that the ones the Greeks did were correct, Im taking as a concept in general, the government needs to cut social spenditure and focus all of its resources on getting its economy stable again.

This will for sure create a slum in living standards like health, education, infrastructure etc, but if its done right you can start rebuilding again and increasing quality of life.


This sounds silly but actually city simulators can give you a great sense (simplified obv) of how this works, and how indeed loans can generate a lot of growth but its a delicate balance and sometimes loaning more over debts is a good thing when its done intelligently, but trying to solve an out of control debt by loaning more its simply suicide.

I think no one has a sweet fucking clue what economic policies will do what to whom and where. It's so complex, the top dogs say they have no fucking clue.

And yet, LP solved it. Rock on

You guys think for one second hardcore kickass economists/bankers/investors/wtfever didn't study the fuck out of this? And yet, us with our bullshit opinions makes more sense?

Put it on black I say. That'll solve it

@Baal - I know you've been an anarchist since... well ever. I think if you ever get the (unlucky) chance to live in that kinda society, you'd sing a different tune. That's a whole other debate though.

Sorry for the derail

On July 04 2015 03:16 devon06atX wrote: I think no one has a sweet fucking clue what economic policies will do what to whom and where. It's so complex, the top dogs say they have no fucking clue. And yet, LP solved it. Rock on You guys think for one second hardcore kickass economists/bankers/investors/wtfever didn't study the fuck out of this? And yet, us with our bullshit opinions makes more sense? Put it on black I say. That'll solve it

Haha, you may be overestimating the intelligence of the 'top dogs'. if you study economics even a little bit, like 1st year economics and read good news sources then you can understand this situation pretty well. But there are hardcore economists like joseph stiglitz who have been saying the same thing over and over, and have it all figured out, and has been right the whole time in pretty much everything.

i've partially studied the history of anarchism, the largest anarchist society that's ever been constructed in catalonia, in spain which had several million anarchists. It was a horrible society to live in while it lasted, but not because of its institutions-but because it was under attack by nazi's and stalinists. George Orwell fought for the anarchists in the war against fascism and wrote an interesting book about his experiences. But it was a very interesting society while it lasted, capitalism was virtually eliminated-businesses no longer operated for profit, and the anarchist military was voluntary-even under conditions of total war.

That's completely false. The Austerity policy makes no sense as an economic policy. If you look at Greek debt it is higher now (relative to gdp) than when it started under the austerity policies. So the austerity has failed at what it was supposedly meant to do, get rid of the debt.

Austerity measures were never implemented as they should/agreed upon on Greece.

On July 04 2015 03:16 devon06atX wrote: I think no one has a sweet fucking clue what economic policies will do what to whom and where. It's so complex, the top dogs say they have no fucking clue. And yet, LP solved it. Rock on You guys think for one second hardcore kickass economists/bankers/investors/wtfever didn't study the fuck out of this? And yet, us with our bullshit opinions makes more sense? Put it on black I say. That'll solve it

it is hard to predict on the microscale, just as its hard to predict every little turbulence in a river... but its easy to see in what direction the river flows.

State income/outcome ratio and loans at an interest rate are not hard to see or to project at all.


The problem is not that people dont know the solution for this problem, but that there are many interests involved, this is also why democracy is flawd:

- People wont vote for anything that personally hurts them for a greater good
- People wont vote for austerity
- Politicians want to be elected
- Politicians either reject austerity or will loose elections
- Politicians promising the least austerity will win

Therefore the problem wont be efficiently solved through democracy

On July 04 2015 03:22 devon06atX wrote: @Baal - I know you've been an anarchist since... well ever. I think if you ever get the (unlucky) chance to live in that kinda society, you'd sing a different tune. That's a whole other debate though. Sorry for the derail

You cant just claim that without any kind of argument, come on -_-

On July 04 2015 03:16 devon06atX wrote: I think no one has a sweet fucking clue what economic policies will do what to whom and where. It's so complex, the top dogs say they have no fucking clue. And yet, LP solved it. Rock on You guys think for one second hardcore kickass economists/bankers/investors/wtfever didn't study the fuck out of this? And yet, us with our bullshit opinions makes more sense? Put it on black I say. That'll solve it

You re just as naive as us
Both approaches have their flaws. It's not only about what a country needs to stabilize itself, but also about control. In order to solve this economical problem you have to solve the international relations first meaning you d have to solve the nature of humans and psychology
You have no idea how connected tons of little things are leading to global problems like this.
The same kickass economists have different interests leading to different things and etc.
After all people build complete schools from the ground up to try and show a different approach to things and still fail so you're obviously right as well

On July 03 2015 00:25 Santafairy wrote: also nice to see digger, I suspected an asymptotically ideal crypto-EU might come up

Here is the most relevant article on the web today in relation to the greek crisis, written by the MAN when it comes to bitcoin and what bitcoin is and what it can do: http://unenumerated.blogspot.ca/2015/...eek-financial-mess-and-some-ways.html

This article will explore some of the severe practical problems that capital controls are causing Greek individuals and businesses, and suggest some potential bitcoin solutions, many of which could also be applied to other countries with some similar financial problems and controls such as Argentina and Venezuela. These aren't solutions that can be applied in time to help with the current 6 days of capital controls, but could substantially help some Greeks and some aspects of the Greek economy if some version of these controls is continued for months or years. There is a growing shortage of such cash; as a result some stores are paying their suppliers in private "scrip", which can be used by the supplier's workers to purchase goods from the issuing store. (more on this below). It doesn’t help much to sell bitcoin to isolated individuals: as a mere store of value its volatility is much greater than most existing currencies; as an investment it only makes sense as a tiny high-risk fraction of one's portfolio. Bitcoin does have some political-affinity and status value in developed countries; by contrast in many developing countries and in countries under financial crisis such as Greece, there are urgent needs bitcoin potentially can address. So it's too late for bitcoin to help much with the current 6 days of bank closure, but once the learning curves have been surmounted, the participants in specific cycles educated, bitcoin has great potential to address likely many ongoing problems with capital control, in Greece as long as they continue in various forms, and in many other parts of the world where such financial restrictions designed for a pre-digital era have been imposed.

You see bitcoin isn't necessarily directly relevant NOW, smart "bitcoiners" know this, but it would be foolish to think that the peoples will continue to lose control of their money and not start discussion "alternative option". Bitcoin just happens to be the only truly apolitical one in the national sense.

Good luck in the debate but if ya'll aren't current with bitcoin and szabo/nash economics then your debates are likely a product of such "ignorance".

In real time we get to see the psychology of the peoples when they have an option. Bitcoin's price rises in relation to our own individual fear and greed until the point we realize its potential, and then cooperation ensues. Here are some recent relevant titles from my blog, a little rough on the editing, but each carries its own point:

Hayek’s Incredible Machine
The (Relevant) History of Money and Economics
How to ‘Complete a Kula Ring’
How the Pyramids WEREN’T Built
Futures the Markets Can’t Forsee
The Search for a Sound Basis for Money
Bridging Game Theory With The Euro/Greece Crisis
Problems with Implementing Bitcoin as a Solution to the Greece Crisis: How do Currencies Arise and/or Become Adopted
How to Solve Effectively Unsolvable Problems

- fuck, my alternator belt snapped and Im already late.

diggerflopboat: get bitcoins

- What?

diggerflopboat: BITCOINS !