Greek crisis: Banks shut for a week

The crisis in Greece is reaching its final stage - after all the help from EU it looks like the money flow is going to finally get cut off.

Starting tomorrow, all greek banks and stock market shut for a week as capital controls imposed, and people are limited to withdraw only €60 per day.

After early trading opened up in Asia, EU pumelled down against $:


live updates:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/l...ncy-liquidity-referendum-bailout-live

I have no knowledge of how these things often pan out. Will be interesting to see

Altho I generally follow geopolitical news quite closely, I really don't understand what's going on there. Basically Greece can't pay their debts? And their new political party is anti-austerity?

Lebowski, shed some light!

The nazi party still on the rise there too?

On June 28 2015 21:59 Highcard wrote: I have no knowledge of how these things often pan out. Will be interesting to see

nobody knows
Like with Lehman "whatever, smallest large investment bank on wall street - let them fail, no big deal"
And it culminated in the huge cluster fuck that pretty much ended with this

the way this forum talks about finance is pretty much how live poker players talk about poker

Talking out of my ass (been watching this since I'm into trading now) Please correct me if im wrong here:

FED already plans measures to soften the impact of Grexit(Yellen's announcement of an impending rate hike in case). This was telegraphed years ago and I think they've finally decided it's safe to cut them off. Greece wants Russia to help it survive, in exchange for pipelines running through it as an alternative to Crimea,since nobody wants to help them anymore. I think the current admin of Greece wants to give the impression to their constituents that it can't be bullied by foreign creditors with the aid bailout being canceled if they dont take necessary measures imposed by foreign banks. Problem there is in the real world when you owe insitutions such as IMF and the world bank you're pretty much their bitch and all Greece have done is save their image from voters and seems pretty selfish imo.

All this talk about a global recession after Greece seems more like fuckers looking to bargain hunt and short huge from all the scared money that'll deflate the markets. I believe this won't have that much of an effect as the DOW closed green yesterday on a weekend. Where I live, markets seemed to be more scared with it's anticipation than the actual exit. Now they're looking at how the outflow of money will benefit the Asian markets (except China)

In before Digger suggests buttcoins is the answer

cliffs on how this happened:
Taxes in Greece are absurdly low
Eventhough they are low, taxpayers dont pay them
Their social system pays waaaaaaaaaay too much, huge pensions and shit
Their pension age is 57

Thats not even something they cannot fix, they lack budget income and have huge expenses. Last proposal Cypras did was increasing certain taxes and possibly the pension age and EU told him to fuck off and that they dont want tax increases but budget costs cuts, which is obviously the only normal any adequate human being would want considering that even if they increase the taxes people still wont fucking pay them. Cypras however is a uber socialistic fuck that should be burned together with all of his proletariat brothers and didn't wanna cut pensions and shit so instead now they wont have money for anything. Way to go... Guess they deserve it considering they voted for him, but then again I don't beleive in voting


Pipeline project wont happen since my country told Russia to fuck off and so did Turkey so they can't really reach Greece anyways
Greece's administration just makes it look like they are getting bullied when in fact the EU, IMF and all of the negotiators just reached their breaking point after many many proposals. Greece was arrogant enough to ask for a release from the debt and im happy that the EU wasnt dumb enough to actually approve of that
Sadly a lot of people will get fucked cause the administration are braindead egoistic pieces of shit


edit: Also Defrag they are limited to 600-700eu per day per card from ATMs not 60 lawl :D problem is the banks cant keep up with money supply, considering there are queues at ATMs

cheated their way to eurozone, rolled way out of their bankrolls and now well deserved ends finally here. albania-like living standards coming soon

also sic arrogance by their representatives, 5star trolling

On June 29 2015 00:00 Spitfiree wrote: problem is the banks cant keep up with money supply, considering there are queues at ATMs

Are you sure of this, it sounds like its simply a move to avoid panic withdrawals collapsing the banking system like the great depression in USA.

And this guys is why you dont keep your money in shitty unstable banks

On June 29 2015 02:10 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On June 29 2015 00:00 Spitfiree wrote: problem is the banks cant keep up with money supply, considering there are queues at ATMs Are you sure of this, it sounds like its simply a move to avoid panic withdrawals collapsing the banking system like the great depression in USA. And this guys is why you dont keep your money in shitty unstable banks

and this is why the US is light years ahead in terms of financial infrastructure/financial liquidity, and why we get the cheapest financing on national debt

short comment on the cliffs from spitfiree:
It's almost all wrong, though I don't think he's to blame for not having the real picture, because there's been a lot of misinformation with malicious intent on the matter.
The crisis in Greece came up as a consequence from the global crisis in 2008. Widespread corruption, countless flaws in the greek system and existence of a huge black market made Greece more vulnerable to what happened next, which is prob too much to get into right now.

If we're going to focus on the flaws of how thing work in Greece though, the problem wasn't that taxes were too low (right now they really aren't low at all), it was that they were never collected (except from civil servants who obv didn't have a choice).
Pension system is definitely heavily flawed, but the increase in pension expenditure as a percentage of GDP is a result of the GDP declining faster than the pensions which makes it seem absurd while it in fact isn't.

Avg retirement age in Greece is almost the same with e.g Germany's ~64-65 years (retirement age right now is 67). From Eurostat's data on 2005 (before several consequent reforms) it was 61.9, while it was 61.8 for Germany
Avg pension is 882 euros
Pensions have already been reduced at about 50% throughout 2010-2014 memorandum measures and in a country with 50% young unemployment rate (and 25% overall) these pensions are what's barely keeping families from not searching trash cans to get by (which is actually really common in bigger cities atm)

People voted for Tsipras ( I didn't) because all the austerity experiments that the EU brought to Greece for 5 years failed miserably, the economy suffocated and unemployment and poverty went over the roof. They started voting for dudes that told them that this can't go on any more, it's not working. Syriza party was of course populistic in many regards (as every politician here post crisis tbh), but they were focusing on e.g. the fact that more than 40% of pensioners live below the poverty line and that the new austerity measures would continue to take away from the poorest and weakest. They focused on demanding a permanent and more socially just solution to the social reform and debt problem.

Don't agree with that view? Heres what the former IMF chief has to say: http://www.thetoc.gr/eng/politics/art...kahn-mea-culpa-for-handling-of-greece

Here's how Nobel prize winner Paul Krugman handles the badget cost cuts demanded by troika: " The supposed reason for the rejection of a tax-based response is that it will hurt growth. The obvious response is, are you kidding us? The people who utterly failed to see the damage austerity would do — see the chart, which compares the projections in the 2010 standby agreement with reality — are now lecturing others on growth? "
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/breaking-greece/?_r=0

Here's a take on the situation by J. Habermas: http://www.analyzegreece.gr/news/item...-why-angela-merkel-is-wrong-on-greece

Long story short, after 5 months of negotiations the EU institutions told Greece to accept even more austerity measures without any talk of debt relief or debt sustainability, right after the greek government had proposed measures that were greeted as a " move in the right direction " from several european politicians (while denounced as extreme by ALL political parties in Greece). They even demanded 23% VAT tax increase from 6% in what involves the country's only real industry: tourism.
This isn't a plan that wants a country to grow so that the debts will be repaid and it was frustratingly and irresponsibly enough given with a " game over " message: http://en.protothema.gr/tusk-game-over-tsipras-cutting-pensions-not-a-game/.
Then Tsipras did the referendum maneuver, which is a (seemingly?) YOLO type of move that probably relies on the notion that a grexit costs a lot to everyone and is essentially calling the EU institutions' all in as a bluff. I have no idea what's going to happen tbh, if it's indeed a bluff or not. Nobody actually knows how bad a grexit would be for Greece or the global economy but it's certain that grexit or not things are not looking good and Greece is fucked for years.

I'm too tired to get into the irrelevance of the pipeline project in all this mess.

If Europe doesn't like the socialists in Greece, wait until they see the national socialists that are expected to rise when SYRIZA falls...

Btw it's 60 euros a day maximum from all atms, not 600.

I wrote all this around 6 in the morning so I know it's prob not well worded or touching nearly enough on the subject but I am getting really sleepy

What's happening in greece now happened in much of the third world during the 80's and 90's.

The rich nations lend out money to the poor nations at usurious rates through their international institutions of governance like the IMF, World Bank. Then when the third world nations can't pay it back, the rich nations tell them to follow horrible economic policies like the austerity ones you see in greece. (they used to be called structural adjustment programmes). This makes the poor nations debt slaves, and their economies become dependent on the more powerful nations, they are told to pursue their comparative advantage, which basically means they export all their raw materials to the rich nations. This is pretty similar to how the mafia operates when they lend money out to gambling addicts who own any sort of business.

The german government are the most grotesque hypocrites in this particular situation. A little study of history finds that Greece was forced to loan Adolf Hitler a large sum of money during WW2, which germany still hasn't fully paid back. Not to mention many greeks suffered horribly under hitlers governance. But the greeks have also exploited the 'dangers of hyperinflation' argument to push for austerity, while these austerity conditions empowered the nazi's in greece. Germany has often supported fascist regimes after WW2, for example they sold chemicals to Saddam Hussein during the Iraq-Iran war, not even Adolf Hitler used chemical warfare.

I havn't expected too much from SYRIZA, since it would be hard for a government to fight the troika, no matter which government got in, but its been exciting to follow this.

Also, as far as i'm aware the nazi's pretty much run the police force in greece, any greek able to confirm this?

over 50% of the police votes for them, to what extent that affects their jobs I can't be sure but it'd be stupid to assume that it doesn't. Such incidents are more rare nowadays at least (or not heard of that much)

Lawl if what you re saying is true then bulgarian media is deeply deeply manipulated to insane levels. I get that medias are usually biased, but then 80% of the info is complete misinformation

Heard on the radio there is a 81$/day limit for individual bank withdraws. Banks only have ~0.5-2% of total deposits available for withdraw at any moment. This is considered safe, unless everyone wanted to withdraw all of their money at the same time, which is probably what is currently happening in Greece.

This is concerning news ;/ Maybe even front page news.

Any LP users from Greece?

banks are closed for this week and capital controls have been imposed, you can withdraw 60 euros a day from the atm if you a have a card issued in Greece, if you're a tourist this doesn't apply. People are indeed lining up to withdraw and the 60 euro limit plays some part on that too.

25% unemployment rate... jesus.. crime must be skyrocketing

Vice did a nice documentary regarding the nazi party in Greece - I think they're called the golden sun, or new sun or something along those lines? It's scary stuff..

On June 29 2015 14:48 devon06atX wrote: 25% unemployment rate... jesus.. crime must be skyrocketing Vice did a nice documentary regarding the nazi party in Greece - I think they're called the golden sun, or new sun or something along those lines? It's scary stuff..

yes a bunch of nazi morons is scary, yet eu is run by marxists and mayoists, which is supposedly standard

facepalm

On June 28 2015 22:28 devon06atX wrote: Altho I generally follow geopolitical news quite closely, I really don't understand what's going on there. Basically Greece can't pay their debts? And their new political party is anti-austerity? Lebowski, shed some light! The nazi party still on the rise there too?

It is difficult to understand these situations because everyone has a different perspective. If you ask German government they might say things like (in an angry voice) "Greece would be wise to take our generous offers!!!"

If you ask Greek peoples they might suggest they won't put up with bully tactics any more.

What is truly happening is that the power of the Euro currency (and governing bodies) is only and perfectly related to the trust and cooperative agreements that back it. The euro group is saying "pay your debts", and greece can't pay their debts, and won't pay their debts...

The result is the realization by Greece, based on the fear the entire Euro will unravel, that they have the most bargaining power in the world right now.

Greece isn't trying to exit or make a deal, greece is just bargaining the shit out of the situation...meanwhile the euro can't bow to such demands since they are absurd from the Euro groups point of view. To give in to greece means to give into other nations, yet to facilitate the grexit might kill the lure of a euro.

My take is that I suspect this is the most powerful force in the cosmos. More energy is stored in this union than is released in splitting an atom, hence the gravitational force is enormous, yet something has to give...

On June 29 2015 16:05 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On June 29 2015 14:48 devon06atX wrote: 25% unemployment rate... jesus.. crime must be skyrocketing Vice did a nice documentary regarding the nazi party in Greece - I think they're called the golden sun, or new sun or something along those lines? It's scary stuff.. yes a bunch of nazi morons is scary, yet eu is run by marxists and mayoists, which is supposedly standard facepalm

EU run by marxists and maoists? Just because they tried to have a (partial and watered down) say on the policies/regulations of the country they got elected in? While they came in power because of the 5 year austerity programs that failed horribly, something that even former IMF chief admits? Bear in mind that the previous governments that simply accepted everything were also not taken seriously or into consideration by troika.
Meanwhile 10% Nazi party golden dawn is just a bunch of idiots? -_-

Just try to get a bit out of your shoes for a minute man, it's understandable to have a different opinion but at least don't be this certain when it's obvious that you have no real idea of what's going on

edit: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-sachs/greeks-stay-alive_b_7603676.html
Is Jeffrey Sachs a maoist/marxist in your opinion?

dont get defensive, i m talking about EU representatives

but while we are at it:
10% golden dawn: scary
36% syriza (aka The Coalition of the Radical Left lol): standard, nothing to worry about

some flawed thinking right there

Because the extermination of Jews is on par with actually paying out pensions.

Golden Dawn

Scholars and media have described it as neo-Nazi and fascist though the group rejects these labels.

+ Show Spoiler +

whats ur point mcnasty? all i m trying to say is that while communism and nazism are both equally dangerous left-winged ideologies, communism is actually widely accepted even with 100M+ casulties worldwide and co-starting ww2

Sunday the 5th of July Greece is having the first referendum since 1974.
People are asked to vote YES if they want to stick to euro and the austerity measures IMF World bank and European leadership is suggesting in order to keep getting loans/paying loans
or NO if they feel like the measures are just too much.

Real problem is that whatever the IMF troika has been suggesting over the last 5 years is clearly making the debt unsustainable and their lives worse.
More salary/pension cuts , more taxes less funding.
Unfortunately there's no government that can fix such an economy with such debt.(174% of GDP atm...)

Greek government decided to start a revolution vs the modern world banking and IMF but I'm afraid there's no nation able to fight those guys anymore...

The future of economies having similar problems in euro-zone like Ireland,Portugal or even bigger economies like Spain and Italy
depends of the outcome of Greece's happy or not so happy end as they will choose wisely next time they will be asked/forced to further cuts or austerity measures for their people.

On June 29 2015 17:46 dogmeat wrote: dont get defensive, i m talking about EU representatives but while we are at it: 10% golden dawn: scary 36% syriza (aka The Coalition of the Radical Left lol): standard, nothing to worry about some flawed thinking right there

-- while I don't especially like suriza because I think they are populists and they have a generous number of stupid people in their ranks, overall they are left socialists who don't believe in fighting against capitalism in the way communist parties do.
36% is obvious not marxist or maoist, they are people who came to syriza mostly from pasok after the latter took the blame for the shithole the country turned into after decades of running it alongside new democracy. Syriza gained all these people in their ranks by managing to stay vague enough in what they collectively stand for and actually believe. Why would the majority of syriza voters possibly want to stay in the EU/Euro if they were maoists or marxists as you say?
There are about 16(!) different political components in suriza and maoist/marxists are only a small part of them; well, to be fair "marxist" can be a very broad term nowadays and it includes people who aren't communists so I'm not really sure on exactly how big or small that component is. But I don't think anyone in the group of people who negotiated for Greece ever said anything even close to anti capitalistic or maoist

They get shat on for this by the communist party of greece all the time (KKE). Just yesterday KKE accused them of being the new pasok and voted no to syriza's referendum proposal because they demanded that the vote included syriza's own "harsh measures" which btw were considered harsh by ALL the political parties in Greece.

Why didn't the EU accept this proposal or work on it further? Because when suriza offered some harsh measures on their own, troika thought it's a good idea to scrap all 5 months of negotiations (while the current program was running out) and offer an ultimatum that would make suriza look bad (also brought on by the party's own populism too admittedly) and inevitably fall from power, as time was running out for Greece (also to an extent syriza's fault). The IMF didn't accept equivalent measures to the ones the institutions had proposed, which is something that has never happened to any other country.
Then, 2 days after the announcement of the referendum by Tsipras they took the ultimatum back and started claiming that they had proposed a "softer" version of memorandum -which was always under discussion- and also had solutions on the debt sustainability but the greeks walked out, meaning that they did everything to make the greek government look like unreal retards and asked the greek people to vote yes. The least you can say about this is that these moves are economically and socially irresponsible, even if you don't like left politicians.

Such moves work on people who casually watch the news, but not on those who notice the details of what happens and that's why you see a series of nobel prize winners etc putting the blame for no deal not on the evil "maoists", but on the institutions.

On the other hand of what you mentioned you have dudes who vote for nazis and feel like the have devine blood and it's their duty to cleanse Greece from eg antifascist rappers like Paulos Fyssas who was murdered a while back.
When golden dawn first got a ton of votes, many thought it was because people don't know what they stand for. A few murders away and after enough coverage by the media it's safe to say that their ranks have grown and that nobody cares they're nazis...

Players have been wondering why i have been so (insanely) vocal about "ideal money" by john nash, and finally as time passes things get easier to read. Nash should be a significant name to poker players for his work on game theory. Take a quick skim at the relevance of his points from a greek or euro citizen point of view:

________________________________________________________________
… I wish to present the argument that various interests and groups, notably including “Keynesian” economists, have sold to the public a “quasi-doctrine” which teaches, in effect, that “less is more” or that (in other words) “bad money” is better than “good money”.

So let us define “Keynesian”…

…a “Keynesian” would favor the existence of a “manipulative” state establishment of central bank and treasury which would continuously seek to achieve “economic welfare” objectives with comparatively little regard for the long term reputation of the national currency…

…it is sometimes remarkable how political contexts can evolve. And in relation to that I think that it is possible that “the Keynesians” are like a political faction that will become less influential as a result of political evolution.

The Keynesians implicitly always have the argument that some good managers can do things of beneficial value, operating with the treasury and the central bank, and that it is not needed or appropriate for the citizenry or the “customers” of the currency supplied by the state to actually understand, while the managers are managing, what exactly they are doing and how it will affect the “pocketbook” circumstances of these customers.

The idea seems paradoxical, but by speaking of “inflation targeting” these responsible officials are effectively CONFESSING that, notwithstanding how they formerly were speaking about the difficulties and problems of their functions, that it is indeed after all possible to control inflation by controlling the supply of money (as if by limiting the amount of individual “prints” that could be made of a work of art being produced as “prints”).

…while they have claimed to be operating for high and noble objectives of general welfare what is clearly true is that they have made it easier for governments to “print money”.

(1): Games with transferable utility.
(and)
(2): Games without transferable utility

In the world of practical realities it is money which typically causes the existence of a game of type (1) rather than of type (2); money is the “lubrication” which enables the efficient “transfer of utility”. And generally if games can be transformed from type (2) to type (1) there is a gain, on average, to all the players in terms of whatever might be expected to be the outcome.

We can legitimately wonder how the speediness of its adoption or delays in its adoption might affect the policies operating to control the actual exchange value of the euro. The constitutional structure of the authority behind the euro is of the “paper money” character in that nothing is really guaranteed as far as the value of the euro is concerned. But this is typical of all currencies used in the world nowadays.

So here is the possibility of “asymptotically ideal money”. Starting with the idea of value stabilization in relation to a domestic price index associated with the territory of one state, beyond that there is the natural and logical concept of internationally based value comparisons. The currencies being compared, like now the euro, the dollar, the yen, the pound, the swiss franc, the swedish kronor, etc. can be viewed with critical eyes by their users and by those who may have the option of whether or not or how to use one of them. This can lead to pressure for good quality and consequently for a lessened rate of inflationary depreciation in value.

But it seems very likely that, although that scheme for arranging for a system of money with ideal qualities would work well, that, on the other hand, it would be politically difficult to arrive at the implementation of such a system.

And also, if we view money as of importance in connection with transfers of utility, we can see that money itself is a sort of “utility”, using the word in another sense, comparable to supplies of water, electric energy or telecommunications. And then, if we think about it, money itself is a sort of “utility”, using the word in another sense, comparable to supplies of water, electric energy or telecommunicationswe can consider the quality of money as comparable to the quality of some “public utility” like the supply of electric energy or of water.

And what I want to suggest is that “the public” or the users, those for whom a medium of exchange functions as a basic utility, may develop opinions that are critical of currencies of lower “value quality”. That is, the public may learn to demand better quality of that which CAN be managed to be of better quality or which can be managed to be of the lower quality observed in so many of the various national currencies in the 20th century.

his variety of money would be intrinsically free of ”inflationary decadence” similarly to how money would be free from that on a true “gold standard”, but the proposed basis for that was not the proposal of a linkage to gold.

…it can be said that they tend to think in terms of government agencies operating in a benevolent fashion that is, however, beyond the comprehension of the citizens of the state.

(All over the world varieties of states make claims to have governments very properly or even ideally devoted to the interests of the citizens or nationals of those states and always an externally located critic can argue that the government is actually a sort of despotism.)

Our view is that if it is viewed scientifically and rationally (which is psychologically difficult!) that money should have the function of a standard of measurement and thus that it should become comparable to the watt or the hour or a degree of temperature.

For example, if all sorts of non-European countries decided to define the values of their currencies as on a par with the euro, without actually joining into any system of cooperative regulations associated with that, then the effect of that would seem likely to destabilize the stability of the euro if it would otherwise be highly stable and of good value quality.

In the near future there may be a smaller number of major currencies used in the world and these may stand in competitive relations among themselves. There is now the “euro” and the old inflationary history of the Italian lira is past history now. And there COULD be introduced, for example, a similar international currency for the Islamic world or for South Asia, or for South America, or here or there.

And this parallel makes it seem not implausible that a process of political evolution might lead to the expectation on the part of citizens in the “great democracies” that they should be better situated to be able to understand whatever will be the monetary policies which, indeed, are typically of great importance to citizens who may have alternative options for where to place their “savings”.
___________________________________________________________________________

The conversation certainly isn't going to go away, and its very relevant to each and everyone of us with respect to each and every national/fiat currency. For poker players its just all the more relevant!

On June 29 2015 19:47 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On June 29 2015 17:46 dogmeat wrote: dont get defensive, i m talking about EU representatives but while we are at it: 10% golden dawn: scary 36% syriza (aka The Coalition of the Radical Left lol): standard, nothing to worry about some flawed thinking right there -- while I don't especially like suriza because I think they are populists and they have a generous number of stupid people in their ranks, overall they are left socialists who don't believe in fighting against capitalism in the way communist parties do. 36% is obvious not marxist or maoist, they are people who came to syriza mostly from pasok after the latter took the blame for the shithole the country turned into after decades of running it alongside new democracy. Syriza gained all these people in their ranks by managing to stay vague enough in what they collectively stand for and actually believe. Why would the majority of syriza voters possibly want to stay in the EU/Euro if they were maoists or marxists as you say? There are about 16(!) different political components in suriza and maoist/marxists are only a small part of them; well, to be fair "marxist" can be a very broad term nowadays and it includes people who aren't communists so I'm not really sure on exactly how big or small that component is. But I don't think anyone in the group of people who negotiated for Greece ever said anything even close to anti capitalistic or maoist They get shat on for this by the communist party of greece all the time (KKE). Just yesterday KKE accused them of being the new pasok and voted no to syriza's referendum proposal because they demanded that the vote included syriza's own "harsh measures" which btw were considered harsh by ALL the political parties in Greece. Why didn't the EU accept this proposal or work on it further? Because when suriza offered some harsh measures on their own, troika thought it's a good idea to scrap all 5 months of negotiations (while the current program was running out) and offer an ultimatum that would make suriza look bad (also brought on by the party's own populism too admittedly) and inevitably fall from power, as time was running out for Greece (also to an extent syriza's fault). They didn't accept equivalent measures to the ones the institutions had proposed, which is something that has never happened to any other country. Then, 2 days after the announcement of the referendum by Tsipras they took the ultimatum back and started claiming that they had proposed a "softer" version of memorandum -which was always under discussion- and also had solutions on the debt sustainability but the greeks walked out, meaning that they did everything to make the greek government look like unreal retards and asked the greek people to vote yes. The least you can say about this is that these moves are economically and socially irresponsible, even if you don't like left politicians. Such moves work on people who casually watch the news, but not on those who notice the details of what happens and that's why you see a series of nobel prize winners etc putting the blame for no deal not on the evil "maoists", but on the institutions. On the other hand of what you mentioned you have dudes who vote for nazis and feel like the have devine blood and it's their duty to cleanse Greece from eg antifascist rappers like Paulos Fyssas who was murdered a while back. When golden dawn first got a ton of votes, many thought it was because people don't know what they stand for. A few murders away and after enough coverage by the media it's safe to say that their ranks have grown and that nobody cares they're nazis...

i was reffering to eu representatives, ie barrosso, schulz,etc as marxists/mayoist, which you can verify using google. also me pointing out flawed thinking about nazism/communism is irrelevant here...
i dont want to disscuss greece with you b/c i think you are emotionally affected, i just find hilarious the general attitude from greece reps, making conditions on paying debts and the fact that you even think eu should even negotiate lol, greece should have gone busto 5years ago

What is really going on with Greece why are they so backwards and fucked up? I didn't think they were a 3rd world country but now it sounds like they are as shitty as the worst eastern european dumps. Goddamn black hole. Lazy population or corrupt government? I know Greece has a rich history and some beautiful places so I would figure they should have some economy. Olive oil and tourism

On June 29 2015 19:25 dogmeat wrote: whats ur point mcnasty? all i m trying to say is that while communism and nazism are both equally dangerous left-winged ideologies, communism is actually widely accepted even with 100M+ casulties worldwide and co-starting ww2

I mean there's a lot I disagree with the above but you're mainly just calling a random left wing European party communist and Maoist (weird) as if purging the bourgeoisie was part of their platform. Meanwhile the Golden Dawn is shaving their heads and using swastikas.

http://www.greanvillepost.com/2012/05/27/the-european-situation-syrizas-program/

Seems standard

define:mayoist
someone who loves mayo

There are a bunch of tldrs that im not going to read but the fact is this : Ireland was in a similiar situation when the crisis struck yet they are flourishing now
The problem here is Greece has the option between the very bad and the disastrous

@NMcNasty

I don't know if Golden Dawn uses swastikas or not (although I'm skeptical of that), but the image you linked is a called a greek meander, and it's a classic symbol from ancient Greece.

It will be pretty lame if somehow Golden Dawn gets the public to equate that to Nazism.

On June 29 2015 20:09 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On June 29 2015 19:47 lebowski wrote:   On June 29 2015 17:46 dogmeat wrote: dont get defensive, i m talking about EU representatives but while we are at it: 10% golden dawn: scary 36% syriza (aka The Coalition of the Radical Left lol): standard, nothing to worry about some flawed thinking right there -- while I don't especially like suriza because I think they are populists and they have a generous number of stupid people in their ranks, overall they are left socialists who don't believe in fighting against capitalism in the way communist parties do. 36% is obvious not marxist or maoist, they are people who came to syriza mostly from pasok after the latter took the blame for the shithole the country turned into after decades of running it alongside new democracy. Syriza gained all these people in their ranks by managing to stay vague enough in what they collectively stand for and actually believe. Why would the majority of syriza voters possibly want to stay in the EU/Euro if they were maoists or marxists as you say? There are about 16(!) different political components in suriza and maoist/marxists are only a small part of them; well, to be fair "marxist" can be a very broad term nowadays and it includes people who aren't communists so I'm not really sure on exactly how big or small that component is. But I don't think anyone in the group of people who negotiated for Greece ever said anything even close to anti capitalistic or maoist They get shat on for this by the communist party of greece all the time (KKE). Just yesterday KKE accused them of being the new pasok and voted no to syriza's referendum proposal because they demanded that the vote included syriza's own "harsh measures" which btw were considered harsh by ALL the political parties in Greece. Why didn't the EU accept this proposal or work on it further? Because when suriza offered some harsh measures on their own, troika thought it's a good idea to scrap all 5 months of negotiations (while the current program was running out) and offer an ultimatum that would make suriza look bad (also brought on by the party's own populism too admittedly) and inevitably fall from power, as time was running out for Greece (also to an extent syriza's fault). They didn't accept equivalent measures to the ones the institutions had proposed, which is something that has never happened to any other country. Then, 2 days after the announcement of the referendum by Tsipras they took the ultimatum back and started claiming that they had proposed a "softer" version of memorandum -which was always under discussion- and also had solutions on the debt sustainability but the greeks walked out, meaning that they did everything to make the greek government look like unreal retards and asked the greek people to vote yes. The least you can say about this is that these moves are economically and socially irresponsible, even if you don't like left politicians. Such moves work on people who casually watch the news, but not on those who notice the details of what happens and that's why you see a series of nobel prize winners etc putting the blame for no deal not on the evil "maoists", but on the institutions. On the other hand of what you mentioned you have dudes who vote for nazis and feel like the have devine blood and it's their duty to cleanse Greece from eg antifascist rappers like Paulos Fyssas who was murdered a while back. When golden dawn first got a ton of votes, many thought it was because people don't know what they stand for. A few murders away and after enough coverage by the media it's safe to say that their ranks have grown and that nobody cares they're nazis... i was reffering to eu representatives, ie barrosso, schulz,etc as marxists/mayoist, which you can verify using google. also me pointing out flawed thinking about nazism/communism is irrelevant here... i dont want to disscuss greece with you b/c i think you are emotionally affected, i just find hilarious the general attitude from greece reps, making conditions on paying debts and the fact that you even think eu should even negotiate lol, greece should have gone busto 5years ago

at this point I admit I am emotionally affected because I see people emptying super markets and atms and there's a definite fear of the unknown.
In what specific way does your emotional distance help you be more objective though?
Agreed on the nazism/communism comments being irrelevant, probably agreed on greek reps being hilarious thinking some sort of mutually beneficial understanding of democratic nature could come between those who lend and those in debt, when it's becoming obvious debt colonies are preferable to anything else. Going busto 5 years ago btw is exactly what the current finance minister of Greece was proposing at the time (see the famous middle finger video), agreed on that too.
But I honestly have no idea how maoism/marxism is affecting EU through those EU reps you mention, give me a couple of examples. I sincerely never heard of that before that's why I had trouble understanding what you mean

On June 29 2015 22:05 nolan wrote: @NMcNasty I don't know if Golden Dawn uses swastikas or not (although I'm skeptical of that), but the image you linked is a called a greek meander, and it's a classic symbol from ancient Greece. It will be pretty lame if somehow Golden Dawn gets the public to equate that to Nazism.

this is their number 3(?) in rank.
this is number 2

so yeah, they don't openly admit being the equivalent of nazis (they even say the sieg heil pose is ancient greek lol) but it's only to be a bit more flexible politically

People just look for their own interests, Greece government fucked everyone because they only pursued personal gain, so the only reasonable cure for the mess was severe spending cuts... but people dont give a flying fuck about the cure for the problem, they care about themselves so those measures affected them so they rioted non-stop so there isnt a real solution.

This is the reason why governments are evil, communists, fascists, democrats etc, because its human nature to seek personal gain over the well being of others, we are as species are not fit to rule over others.

soon we will have a perfect communism enforced by the machines let the collapse come and the bitcoins flow hail satan.

this guy looks half black LOL

The people of Greece have been enjoying a high standard of living by means of finances from the EU which they haven't earned & weren't supposed to get anyway because they committed fraud to get into the EU. Government spending has been excessive to the point of unsustainability, the critical point has been reached. In order to pay for the spending austerity is needed. It is inevitable, paying back debt or leaving EU. Tsipras is a real fucking idiot, the way he carries himself is a disgrace.

I don't deny mistakes of the governments (and people) of the past but they are are mostly irrelevant to what's happening now.

It's wrong to speak as if austerity is the key to all of Greece's past mistakes and faults; the truth is that for 5 years people here have lived through the most fierce austerity measures than any other country under a program and it has brought destructive consequences that everyone accepts, not only the greek government. For all these years the greek governments silently accepted every austerity measure there is and it brought the economy down. There are people here who work hard all month they get 300 euros and yet the south still gets called lazy from reporters in countries were people work less
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17155304

Economists around the world are laughing when comparing the results to what was expected and the overall effectiveness of austerity measures as medicine is doubted:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2...ity-eurozone-disaster-joseph-stiglitz

Concerning Greece specifically I linked earlier the former IMF chief admitting that they fucked the economy with their bailout program and asking for debt relief and extending repayments

Why don't the institutions learn from their mistakes? A lot can be speculated but my point is that for people in Greece living like a debt colony money junkie with no possible future upswing through harsh austerity or grexiting with probable nightmarish consequences are the only 2 scenarios left right now


edit: meanwhile, where did the bailout money go? Only 10% went to system reforms, this was in essence a European bank bailout
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015.../where-did-the-greek-bailout-money-go

It is for sure a terrible event for the people. The whole eceonomy of Greece suffers. It is going to get a lot darker before there is light again. My opinion is that a grexit isn't as bad as it is made out to be. It will get really bad really fast in terms of foreign investors pulling out and all the dominoes that shall fall. Healing will occur after hitting rock bottom. A lot of reforms and other changes need to be made and i don't think Tsipras is up to the task. Winter is coming.
In the grand scheme of things it won't affect the global or european economy much. It has already been priced in. USD-EUR is a mix of events worthy of a thread of its own but Greece is rather insignificant.
Institutions in EU is a real problem, legislative and financial alike.

On June 30 2015 01:30 Baalim wrote: People just look for their own interests, Greece government fucked everyone because they only pursued personal gain, so the only reasonable cure for the mess was severe spending cuts... but people dont give a flying fuck about the cure for the problem, they care about themselves so those measures affected them so they rioted non-stop so there isnt a real solution. This is the reason why governments are evil, communists, fascists, democrats etc, because its human nature to seek personal gain over the well being of others, we are as species are not fit to rule over others.

Yea agreed with this. I do think there are a select handful of people somewhere in this world (not myself) who are intelligent enough, who truly care for others over themselves and value humanity as a whole above their own individual lives, who could rule. The selection process would be almost impossible though and you would have to fiND someone who checks all the boxes and also would not be corrupted once handeD the power. Some people are far more enlightened than the others but unfortunately for everyone they tend not to seek positiona of power as those that do generally do so for narcissistic egotistical self serving reasons.

Maybe some carefully created civil service examination (i'm talking brain scans and psychiatric evaluation on top of extensive testing etc. Not some multiple choice questionaire) could test the population and find someone(s) suitable

Democracy is kind of a joke though. Not all people are equal or even suitable to be making decisions that affect others. Maybe a democracy with minimum standard for permission to participate would be better than what we have now. Obviously no government or absolutely minimal government is the way to go though

Democracy is so often equated with freedom in this country it would make you think they were synonymous but they really have little to do with one another imo.

Our representatives in Washington continue to strip our freedoms using the tools of democracy and then tell us we asked for it when anyone complains

On June 29 2015 20:21 traxamillion wrote: What is really going on with Greece why are they so backwards and fucked up? I didn't think they were a 3rd world country but now it sounds like they are as shitty as the worst eastern european dumps. Goddamn black hole. Lazy population or corrupt government? I know Greece has a rich history and some beautiful places so I would figure they should have some economy. Olive oil and tourism

Ships/shipping and tourism are pretty important, and I think shipping isn't taxed? In general the government hasn't been enjoying much trust and there is a lot of corruption and tax evasion, they forged economic figures to get in to euro zone, euro zone meant cheap debt (from German and French banks mostly), budget deficits lead that the debt ends up being unpayable, bailouts force unpopular political decisions that plummet the GDP etc., Syriza gains popularity and the situation escalates here. Short one sentence description of the situation, it's not that simple of course. If there's some inaccuracy feel free to correct.

On June 30 2015 19:19 humPah wrote: Show nested quote + On June 29 2015 20:21 traxamillion wrote: What is really going on with Greece why are they so backwards and fucked up? I didn't think they were a 3rd world country but now it sounds like they are as shitty as the worst eastern european dumps. Goddamn black hole. Lazy population or corrupt government? I know Greece has a rich history and some beautiful places so I would figure they should have some economy. Olive oil and tourism Ships/shipping and tourism are pretty important, and I think shipping isn't taxed? In general the government hasn't been enjoying much trust and there is a lot of corruption and tax evasion, they forged economic figures to get in to euro zone, euro zone meant cheap debt (from German and French banks mostly), budget deficits lead that the debt ends up being unpayable, bailouts force unpopular political decisions that plummet the GDP etc., Syriza gains popularity and the situation escalates here. Short one sentence description of the situation, it's not that simple of course. If there's some inaccuracy feel free to correct.

taxes on ships and tourism are lower than what troika wants, the rest of what you say is true,the unpopular political decisions are unpopular because the economy broke down over 5 years of austerity and lots of people got really poor; also they weren't actually "decisions", the troika reps were pretty much doing whatever they wanted and that's what led to the demise of both pasok and nd parties (well ok, also their 20+ years of corrupt governing and never reforming played a big part as well)

On June 30 2015 20:55 lebowski wrote:the economy broke down over 5 years of austerity

you are hilarious, greece have negative balance of trade and basically only produces olive oil, went bankrupt 5 times in last 200 years etc, it has been broken for decades.

dont you feel bad for slovakia sendind 1mld euros to bail you? typical southern 'fuck you, pay me' mentality

stop making urself appear like a victim ffs

On June 30 2015 17:38 traxamillion wrote: Democracy is so often equated with freedom in this country it would make you think they were synonymous but they really have little to do with one another imo. Our representatives in Washington continue to strip our freedoms using the tools of democracy and then tell us we asked for it when anyone complains

America isn't a democracy, and it's very irrational that it this is taught in school, since the claim is false if you try to deduce it from its definition. 'Liberal democracy' is defined by political scientists as a society where people have an equal say in making decisions that affect them, and that people are the best judges of their own interest.

But research in political science finds that the poorest 70% of americans have no influence on policy, and while people are the best judges of their own interest, there's a massive industry, namely the PR industry devoted to turning people into voters against their own interest.

So in my view if western societies had an honest and rational school system for the humanities they would teach that we live in a plutocracy since their is more evidence for that.

I completely agree stroggoz if that wasn't clear. I used the word democracy just because that is what we call our government even if it isn't truly one

On July 01 2015 02:33 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On June 30 2015 20:55 lebowski wrote:the economy broke down over 5 years of austerity you are hilarious, greece have negative balance of trade and basically only produces olive oil, went bankrupt 5 times in last 200 years etc, it has been broken for decades. dont you feel bad for slovakia sendind 1mld euros to bail you? typical southern 'fuck you, pay me' mentality

I'm not a victim of the situation dude, I feel bad for all the victims around here though, something that obviously doesn't affect you.

Greece's biggest industry is tourism and they were asking 23% VAT from 6%. How was that going to help growth?
Germany has gone bankrupt 8 times the last 215 years, what is your point?
Did I ever suggest that things work well around here or that reforms are not needed? Only that the enforced measures brought terrible results,what works in one country doesn't necessarily work in another. I could start linking charts if you want.

Still waiting on examples of marxist/maoist EU reps destroying Europe btw

Austerity is a blatantly flawed, dumb, destructive economic policy and that much is quite obvious with a little thought. Saving does not lead to growth lol spending does. ANYWAYS, I think some people just wanted to shit on Greece and make it their bitch after they lied to get in the club.

On June 29 2015 03:42 lebowski wrote: Avg retirement age in Greece is almost the same with e.g Germany's ~64-65 years (retirement age right now is 67). From Eurostat's data on 2005 (before several consequent reforms) it was 61.9, while it was 61.8 for Germany

i remember reading an article about greece a while ago that said the avg. retirement age for jobs classified as 'arduous' was 55 for men and 50 for women. it said there's over 600 types of jobs considered arduous including stuff like hairdressers, radio announcers, musicians, etc. and generally made it sound like pretty much anything could fit the criteria. i don't know about what reforms took place after 2005, but do you think the retirement data would look significantly different now compared to 2005? or do you think the article was misleading with the way it referred to those jobs?

edit: found the article http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010 it's also a bit dated from 2010

Only that the enforced measures brought terrible results,what works in one country doesn't necessarily work in another. I could start linking charts if you want.

On the contrary, alot of accepted measures weren't enforced at all, and that is not an issue of the program itself.

On June 30 2015 17:30 traxamillion wrote: Show nested quote + On June 30 2015 01:30 Baalim wrote: People just look for their own interests, Greece government fucked everyone because they only pursued personal gain, so the only reasonable cure for the mess was severe spending cuts... but people dont give a flying fuck about the cure for the problem, they care about themselves so those measures affected them so they rioted non-stop so there isnt a real solution. This is the reason why governments are evil, communists, fascists, democrats etc, because its human nature to seek personal gain over the well being of others, we are as species are not fit to rule over others. Yea agreed with this. I do think there are a select handful of people somewhere in this world (not myself) who are intelligent enough, who truly care for others over themselves and value humanity as a whole above their own individual lives, who could rule. The selection process would be almost impossible though and you would have to fiND someone who checks all the boxes and also would not be corrupted once handeD the power. Some people are far more enlightened than the others but unfortunately for everyone they tend not to seek positiona of power as those that do generally do so for narcissistic egotistical self serving reasons. Maybe some carefully created civil service examination (i'm talking brain scans and psychiatric evaluation on top of extensive testing etc. Not some multiple choice questionaire) could test the population and find someone(s) suitable

Some very strange really honest people get in positions of power, they basically slip through the cracks of the corrupting system, a good example seems to be Uruguays president.

So yeah Im not saying NO human is fit to rule others, Im saying that the democratic and political system does not work, it doesnt put the best of us in power, but the worst

On June 30 2015 17:38 traxamillion wrote: Democracy is so often equated with freedom in this country it would make you think they were synonymous but they really have little to do with one another imo. Our representatives in Washington continue to strip our freedoms using the tools of democracy and then tell us we asked for it when anyone complains

Yeah its so bizarre that the word is associated with goodness, fairness and freedom and that is absolutely no true.

Even a direct democracy (actual vote on every decision) would be wrong, since a 51% majority could impose an injustice on a minority, and well a representative can do whatever the fuck he wants its ridiculous to think that because he managed to fool some people into casting votes that means that what he does is what the people want

On July 01 2015 17:34 traxamillion wrote: Austerity is a blatantly flawed, dumb, destructive economic policy and that much is quite obvious with a little thought. Saving does not lead to growth lol spending does. ANYWAYS, I think some people just wanted to shit on Greece and make it their bitch after they lied to get in the club.

This is a very flawed idea, first of all the spending leads to growth is a keynesian concept that does have applications but if taken just like that it leads to internal debt and eventual implosion, things that we will very likely witness in the Japanese and American economies.

Austerity is for the government budget, so they dont get into more debt, you need to cut heavily on social aid programs, and sure this will make the quality of life decline but once your economy is stable then you can rebuild properly again, spending when your debt is spiraling out of control is absurd, that would create an scenario of Zimbawe and Venezuela combined, hyperinflation where your money is worth less than the paper and people line up in stores for fucking toilet paper

Arguing with dogmeat is like a dog going in circles to catch its cock. You win at the end, but you still got a cock in your mouth

Who is this Cypras you were talking about earlier Spitfiree ?

On June 30 2015 17:38 traxamillion wrote: Democracy is so often equated with freedom in this country it would make you think they were synonymous but they really have little to do with one another imo. Our representatives in Washington continue to strip our freedoms using the tools of democracy and then tell us we asked for it when anyone complains

At least we stopped the NSA wire tapping and did not renew the Patriot Act (I think). It is a small step back in the right direction, even though our politicians do whatever the fuck large donors want.

It is all about obtaining as much power as you can and keeping it.

But about that - did anyone else see the report the Spanish government released about Putin and his ties to the Russian mafia and their operations in Spain?

On July 02 2015 16:01 cariadon wrote: Who is this Cypras you were talking about earlier Spitfiree ?

Wasn't quite sure how their prime minister's name is written in English so thought Tsipras = Cypras :D

@chris links to ze report this seems interesting

On July 02 2015 21:22 Spitfiree wrote: Show nested quote + On July 02 2015 16:01 cariadon wrote: Who is this Cypras you were talking about earlier Spitfiree ? Wasn't quite sure how their prime minister's name is written in English so thought Tsipras = Cypras :D @chris links to ze report this seems interesting

so 80% of your info is complete misinformation?

Seems so, didn't know media here was that fucked especially considering a local problem
When I think about it again though it only seems natural :/

I don't understand, trax, one the one hand you're maligning democracy but the US is famous for being a republic and at the same time you're attacking the people wielding power in Washington

of course only the most delusional or least knowledgeable people think any pure form of government is sustainable, whether direct democracy (which I've heard somewhere like smartphones are supposed to let us return to Athenian democracy which is bullshit) or something else

but the point of having democratic elements in a government is the moment you start excluding people from participating, it's the people in power who just disenfranchise people they don't like

if there's a problem with the US it's this districting and redistricting bullshit. voting should just be plurality at the level of the office or "thing" that's being voted on. for instance, the electoral college can go fuck itself, it's the presidency, it's the 21st century, just take a popular vote. also congressional districts are bullshit, I don't know why a congressman represents a district, he should represent the state, those elections should just be state level pools

I think the USA has been in, or is coming out of, some kind of status quo addiction for decades. specifically the gauge I'm using is nobody wants to make a new flag or why hasn't there been a 51st state, like when is Puerto Rico going to become a state? people complain about imperialism but it seems to me more exploitative to keep these territories hanging around in limbo forever

also nice to see digger, I suspected an asymptotically ideal crypto-EU might come up

On July 02 2015 08:05 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On July 01 2015 17:34 traxamillion wrote: Austerity is a blatantly flawed, dumb, destructive economic policy and that much is quite obvious with a little thought. Saving does not lead to growth lol spending does. ANYWAYS, I think some people just wanted to shit on Greece and make it their bitch after they lied to get in the club. This is a very flawed idea, first of all the spending leads to growth is a keynesian concept that does have applications but if taken just like that it leads to internal debt and eventual implosion, things that we will very likely witness in the Japanese and American economies. Austerity is for the government budget, so they dont get into more debt, you need to cut heavily on social aid programs, and sure this will make the quality of life decline but once your economy is stable then you can rebuild properly again, spending when your debt is spiraling out of control is absurd, that would create an scenario of Zimbawe and Venezuela combined, hyperinflation where your money is worth less than the paper and people line up in stores for fucking toilet paper

That's completely false. The Austerity policy makes no sense as an economic policy. If you look at Greek debt it is higher now (relative to gdp) than when it started under the austerity policies. So the austerity has failed at what it was supposedly meant to do, get rid of the debt.

Sure that it makes sense. Austerity causes low inflation meaning the creditors are happy and living carefree.

The essence of such politics is quite obvious. Creditors don't care for the growth and prosperity of someone as long as they have their liquidity steady. Meaning austerity is extremely good or extremely bad, depends where you are sitting

On July 03 2015 18:24 Stroggoz wrote: Show nested quote + On July 02 2015 08:05 Baalim wrote:   On July 01 2015 17:34 traxamillion wrote: Austerity is a blatantly flawed, dumb, destructive economic policy and that much is quite obvious with a little thought. Saving does not lead to growth lol spending does. ANYWAYS, I think some people just wanted to shit on Greece and make it their bitch after they lied to get in the club. This is a very flawed idea, first of all the spending leads to growth is a keynesian concept that does have applications but if taken just like that it leads to internal debt and eventual implosion, things that we will very likely witness in the Japanese and American economies. Austerity is for the government budget, so they dont get into more debt, you need to cut heavily on social aid programs, and sure this will make the quality of life decline but once your economy is stable then you can rebuild properly again, spending when your debt is spiraling out of control is absurd, that would create an scenario of Zimbawe and Venezuela combined, hyperinflation where your money is worth less than the paper and people line up in stores for fucking toilet paper That's completely false. The Austerity policy makes no sense as an economic policy. If you look at Greek debt it is higher now (relative to gdp) than when it started under the austerity policies. So the austerity has failed at what it was supposedly meant to do, get rid of the debt.

I have no idea how they implemented austerity, so Im not saying that the ones the Greeks did were correct, Im taking as a concept in general, the government needs to cut social spenditure and focus all of its resources on getting its economy stable again.

This will for sure create a slum in living standards like health, education, infrastructure etc, but if its done right you can start rebuilding again and increasing quality of life.


This sounds silly but actually city simulators can give you a great sense (simplified obv) of how this works, and how indeed loans can generate a lot of growth but its a delicate balance and sometimes loaning more over debts is a good thing when its done intelligently, but trying to solve an out of control debt by loaning more its simply suicide.

I think no one has a sweet fucking clue what economic policies will do what to whom and where. It's so complex, the top dogs say they have no fucking clue.

And yet, LP solved it. Rock on

You guys think for one second hardcore kickass economists/bankers/investors/wtfever didn't study the fuck out of this? And yet, us with our bullshit opinions makes more sense?

Put it on black I say. That'll solve it

@Baal - I know you've been an anarchist since... well ever. I think if you ever get the (unlucky) chance to live in that kinda society, you'd sing a different tune. That's a whole other debate though.

Sorry for the derail

On July 04 2015 03:16 devon06atX wrote: I think no one has a sweet fucking clue what economic policies will do what to whom and where. It's so complex, the top dogs say they have no fucking clue. And yet, LP solved it. Rock on You guys think for one second hardcore kickass economists/bankers/investors/wtfever didn't study the fuck out of this? And yet, us with our bullshit opinions makes more sense? Put it on black I say. That'll solve it

Haha, you may be overestimating the intelligence of the 'top dogs'. if you study economics even a little bit, like 1st year economics and read good news sources then you can understand this situation pretty well. But there are hardcore economists like joseph stiglitz who have been saying the same thing over and over, and have it all figured out, and has been right the whole time in pretty much everything.

i've partially studied the history of anarchism, the largest anarchist society that's ever been constructed in catalonia, in spain which had several million anarchists. It was a horrible society to live in while it lasted, but not because of its institutions-but because it was under attack by nazi's and stalinists. George Orwell fought for the anarchists in the war against fascism and wrote an interesting book about his experiences. But it was a very interesting society while it lasted, capitalism was virtually eliminated-businesses no longer operated for profit, and the anarchist military was voluntary-even under conditions of total war.

That's completely false. The Austerity policy makes no sense as an economic policy. If you look at Greek debt it is higher now (relative to gdp) than when it started under the austerity policies. So the austerity has failed at what it was supposedly meant to do, get rid of the debt.

Austerity measures were never implemented as they should/agreed upon on Greece.

On July 04 2015 03:16 devon06atX wrote: I think no one has a sweet fucking clue what economic policies will do what to whom and where. It's so complex, the top dogs say they have no fucking clue. And yet, LP solved it. Rock on You guys think for one second hardcore kickass economists/bankers/investors/wtfever didn't study the fuck out of this? And yet, us with our bullshit opinions makes more sense? Put it on black I say. That'll solve it

it is hard to predict on the microscale, just as its hard to predict every little turbulence in a river... but its easy to see in what direction the river flows.

State income/outcome ratio and loans at an interest rate are not hard to see or to project at all.


The problem is not that people dont know the solution for this problem, but that there are many interests involved, this is also why democracy is flawd:

- People wont vote for anything that personally hurts them for a greater good
- People wont vote for austerity
- Politicians want to be elected
- Politicians either reject austerity or will loose elections
- Politicians promising the least austerity will win

Therefore the problem wont be efficiently solved through democracy

On July 04 2015 03:22 devon06atX wrote: @Baal - I know you've been an anarchist since... well ever. I think if you ever get the (unlucky) chance to live in that kinda society, you'd sing a different tune. That's a whole other debate though. Sorry for the derail

You cant just claim that without any kind of argument, come on -_-

On July 04 2015 03:16 devon06atX wrote: I think no one has a sweet fucking clue what economic policies will do what to whom and where. It's so complex, the top dogs say they have no fucking clue. And yet, LP solved it. Rock on You guys think for one second hardcore kickass economists/bankers/investors/wtfever didn't study the fuck out of this? And yet, us with our bullshit opinions makes more sense? Put it on black I say. That'll solve it

You re just as naive as us
Both approaches have their flaws. It's not only about what a country needs to stabilize itself, but also about control. In order to solve this economical problem you have to solve the international relations first meaning you d have to solve the nature of humans and psychology
You have no idea how connected tons of little things are leading to global problems like this.
The same kickass economists have different interests leading to different things and etc.
After all people build complete schools from the ground up to try and show a different approach to things and still fail so you're obviously right as well

On July 03 2015 00:25 Santafairy wrote: also nice to see digger, I suspected an asymptotically ideal crypto-EU might come up

Here is the most relevant article on the web today in relation to the greek crisis, written by the MAN when it comes to bitcoin and what bitcoin is and what it can do: http://unenumerated.blogspot.ca/2015/...eek-financial-mess-and-some-ways.html

This article will explore some of the severe practical problems that capital controls are causing Greek individuals and businesses, and suggest some potential bitcoin solutions, many of which could also be applied to other countries with some similar financial problems and controls such as Argentina and Venezuela. These aren't solutions that can be applied in time to help with the current 6 days of capital controls, but could substantially help some Greeks and some aspects of the Greek economy if some version of these controls is continued for months or years. There is a growing shortage of such cash; as a result some stores are paying their suppliers in private "scrip", which can be used by the supplier's workers to purchase goods from the issuing store. (more on this below). It doesn’t help much to sell bitcoin to isolated individuals: as a mere store of value its volatility is much greater than most existing currencies; as an investment it only makes sense as a tiny high-risk fraction of one's portfolio. Bitcoin does have some political-affinity and status value in developed countries; by contrast in many developing countries and in countries under financial crisis such as Greece, there are urgent needs bitcoin potentially can address. So it's too late for bitcoin to help much with the current 6 days of bank closure, but once the learning curves have been surmounted, the participants in specific cycles educated, bitcoin has great potential to address likely many ongoing problems with capital control, in Greece as long as they continue in various forms, and in many other parts of the world where such financial restrictions designed for a pre-digital era have been imposed.

You see bitcoin isn't necessarily directly relevant NOW, smart "bitcoiners" know this, but it would be foolish to think that the peoples will continue to lose control of their money and not start discussion "alternative option". Bitcoin just happens to be the only truly apolitical one in the national sense.

Good luck in the debate but if ya'll aren't current with bitcoin and szabo/nash economics then your debates are likely a product of such "ignorance".

In real time we get to see the psychology of the peoples when they have an option. Bitcoin's price rises in relation to our own individual fear and greed until the point we realize its potential, and then cooperation ensues. Here are some recent relevant titles from my blog, a little rough on the editing, but each carries its own point:

Hayek’s Incredible Machine
The (Relevant) History of Money and Economics
How to ‘Complete a Kula Ring’
How the Pyramids WEREN’T Built
Futures the Markets Can’t Forsee
The Search for a Sound Basis for Money
Bridging Game Theory With The Euro/Greece Crisis
Problems with Implementing Bitcoin as a Solution to the Greece Crisis: How do Currencies Arise and/or Become Adopted
How to Solve Effectively Unsolvable Problems

- fuck, my alternator belt snapped and Im already late.

diggerflopboat: get bitcoins

- What?

diggerflopboat: BITCOINS !

So yesterday Greece voted on a referendum if they should take the offer the creditors gave them 1 week ago, a very pointless referendum considering the offer wasn't standing anymore at the time of the referendum. They voted with "no" which shows how brainwashed by Tsipras the greeks are. What's absurd is that it doesn't matter if the IMF and the ECB established wrong politics past years as Greece has no other option, but to get help from them yet they are going against them. What do they think the institutions will do now? You know a nation is desperate when they offer amnesty to people that stole money and put them in Swiss bank, if they transfer them back to Greece. At this point only a complete idiot would transfer his money into greek banks, not to mention when it comes to millions. Anyways Tsipras and Syryza won the referendum with a majority decision and think they are strong now so he requests new negotiations with a legit offer with debt remit which is absurd. This referendum means jack shit to the EU. Just because politicians in Greece found leverage to use on their people doesn't matter they've found leverage on the ECB & IMF. Merkel has said all bridges are burned now. Everything points to Grexit now however its politics and you never know

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/in...ologise-with-huge-horse-2012051527146

reasons why the referendum result was 61/39 imo :

a) all private media were heavily biased favouring "yes", some not even giving air time to "no" supporters or rallies.All the former prime ministers also supported "yes". Both the media and the ministers are considered synonymous to corruption and intertwined interests to local lobbying (tbh rightully so) so this basically backfired

b)the last 5 years have brought a humanitarian crisis and crippled the economy, this has been acknowledged by EU institutions.
IMF report concludes that in 2035, if everything goes perfectly with the programs intended, the debt will still not be sustainable. Yet the institutions consistently denied on bringing the debt issue up on negotiations or new measures/packages planning. Poor people basically believe they are fucked either way

c) It has been obvious through a number of moves and statements that there's a plan to overthrow the greek gov and replace it with technocrats; EU officials even announced to the press that they'll never reach an agreement unless the gov is replaced. People who always heavily criticized suriza (like my father who didn't want to discuss with people who liked them) found this a very non democratic move.
What's the point of voting if you can't even partially affect eg who gets to be taxed with the new memorandum measures?(given that the negotiations had come very close to reaching an agreement but then the IMF disagreed on the equivalent measures suriza had proposed) This heavily overshadowed the "Euro vs Drachma" dilemma that both "yes" supporters and some EU officials claimed the referendum really meant.

anyway it's prob true that the result of the referendum is meaningless and it was a political move that happened mainly because otherwise elections were unavoidable ( suriza can't control it's components to vote for any sort of unpopular agreement). Elections at this point would be too much both for budget and deadlines. No idea what's going to happen next tbh but certainly nothing too good for those who already suffer and the almost dead economy

I'd get more into detail but I'm not on my own pc these days

Dunno but there is a strong lobby here saying SYRIZA are heavily influenced by Russia & Putin and info like that here is only being pushed when its in someone's interest.
Now I don't care if thats true or not, but I'm guessing the info is coming out of EU lobby and that will probably be spread through the whole continent which will make the political situation in your country even worse

Greek government heavily supported NO telling people this will only make greek's government part stronger in future negotiations.
European leaders made it clear that voting NO will mean no to euro-zone and euro as currency.

The question was do you agree with these specific austerity measures EU is suggesting ? YES or NO

63% vote no...ggnore

Eu officials lost a lot of credibility by interfering out of their institutional position and some times even straight out lying to influence the result of the referendum, like Juncker when he said his plan didn't involve pension and wage cuts, or Shulz who got criticized for constantly interfering by many european socialdemocrats. You're probably right on the gg part, but it' probably the same either way

On July 07 2015 10:32 lebowski wrote: Eu officials lost a lot of credibility

greece lost credibility 15 years ago after cheating their way into eurozone. whats your point?


and your question: almost every eu rep has a history of being hardcore socialist/communist and you could see the implementation of their retarded ideas regulating almost every aspect of our lifes

On July 04 2015 07:08 Pb wrote: Show nested quote + That's completely false. The Austerity policy makes no sense as an economic policy. If you look at Greek debt it is higher now (relative to gdp) than when it started under the austerity policies. So the austerity has failed at what it was supposedly meant to do, get rid of the debt. Austerity measures were never implemented as they should/agreed upon on Greece.

this
obv any austerity leads to short-term unemployment and economic decline when you are dealing with such a massive public sector. public sector wages and pensions should have been reduced to bulgaria/albania lvl

^
a) stop thinking in countryballs, as if a government cheating to get into the eurozone 15 years ago should morally have anything to do with millions of people's lives today. My point is that greek people didn't believe the referendum question to be "euro or drachma" when the EU officials told them so and that's because they had lost credibility with their latest statements and actions.

b) stating that there's a network of (former?)communists who regulate every aspect of our lives in retarded ways isn't an example. I've never heard anyone accusing the EU of being too "left" tbh

c) what should have been implemented that didn't? I'm genuinely curious. 25% unemployment and gdp on free fall isn't exactly short term decline. What do you think about the IMF report that shows debt not being sustainable even in20 years with the best growth rates that could be expected?
UN are warning of humanitarian crisis in greece already, the price of basic products here are really higher than the countries you mention, basically everyone would starve if that happened

On July 07 2015 17:34 lebowski wrote: ^ a) stop thinking in countryballs, as if a government cheating to get into the eurozone 15 years ago should morally have anything to do with millions of people's lives today. My point is that greek people didn't believe the referendum question to be "euro or drachma" when the EU officials told them so and that's because they had lost credibility with their latest statements and actions.

15 years ago? and what about relentless spending ever since? puiblic sector is so big there almost everyone was benefiting from it. so your humble solution is to force ppl from all the eu/western coutries to pay for your party? including poor pensioners from bulgaria. coz its evil government fault?

On July 07 2015 17:34 lebowski wrote: b) I've never heard anyone accusing the EU of being too "left" tbh

probably b/c u r from greece. eg whole agriculture is basically centrally planned in eu, which hurts badly almost every country (including greece) except for france

On July 07 2015 17:34 lebowski wrote: c) what should have been implemented that didn't? I'm genuinely curious. 25% unemployment and gdp on free fall isn't exactly short term decline. What do you think about the IMF report that shows debt not being sustainable even in20 years with the best growth rates that could be expected?

coz cuts werent radical enough and now you are stuck in the middle ground when public sector is still too big to reduce debts yet economy output isnt big enough to support it. greece economy is at bulgaria lvl at best, and so should be rents and pensions in public sector

On July 07 2015 17:34 lebowski wrote: UN are warning of humanitarian crisis in greece already, the price of basic products here are really higher than the countries you mention, basically everyone would starve if that happened

thats what happens when you inflate economy with cheap money, prices go up, economics 101. short term effect

On July 07 2015 13:21 dogmeat wrote: obv any austerity leads to short-term unemployment and economic decline when you are dealing with such a massive public sector. public sector wages and pensions should have been reduced to bulgaria/albania lvl

well not as low as here since the pension ehre is ridiculously small but you got a point

On July 07 2015 18:01 dogmeat wrote: 15 years ago? and what about relentless spending ever since? puiblic sector is so big there almost everyone was benefiting from it. so your humble solution is to force ppl from all the eu/western coutries to pay for your party? including poor pensioners from bulgaria. coz its evil government fault?

Noone should be paying for greece. Obv other countries should pay as less as possible and have their loans repaid as fast as possible (with interest). This requires greek economy standing on it's feet, debt sustainability and getting out of the vicious "borrow to repay debt" circle. Reforms certainly have to be made. I think almost everyone here accepts that, what people don't agree on is becoming a perpetual debt colony with no talks of debt sustainability, not being able to even have a partial say (on a national level) on eg taxation specifics and last but not least the obsession with further austerity as a dogma to achieve growth .

coz cuts werent radical enough and now you are stuck in the middle ground when public sector is still too big to reduce debts yet economy output isnt big enough to support it. greece economy is at bulgaria lvl at best, and so should be rents and pensions in public sector

austerity as medicine is doubted a lot by economists around the world right now, I'd be lying if I said i could be certain on the matter and I could be convinced that it is necessary, right now the whole field isn't concrete science like eg physics, and at times it appears like dudes saying completely different stuff, I just see what implementing austerity programs has brought here and what the people who stand for it predict will happen compared to what actually happened.
Greece's (indeed) irresponsible public spending of the past has been exaggerated to fit in the whole "hard working north, lazy south" narrative; before the crisis the state's expenditure in relation to GDP was below the european average.Today the numbers make it seem like public spending on pensions and wages is huge but that's because GDP has been on free fall for 5-6 years.
food for thought:
http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/the-myth-of-successful-baltic-austerity
http://www.thepressproject.net/articl...-is-based-on-a-myth-and-will-not-work

It's funny, around here I've always heard of the EU's agricultural policies on cotton corn and sugar in greece being attributed to private interests and lobbying. I guess according to one's beliefs the perspective varies from blaming the EU commies to blaming the evil capitalist lobbies

On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: Reforms certainly have to be made.

when? after another 5 years? lol

On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/the-myth-of-successful-baltic-austerity

only read the fist one and its pretty much bs

Sharp-eyed readers may have noticed that if your economy shrinks by 25%, and then grows by 5.5%, you’re still a good few years away, at least, from simply getting back to where you were.

well... duh... but its better than going default

Rainer Kattel and Ringa Raudla give three reasons why. First, all three rely on massive transfers of funding from the EU – 20% of the national budget in the case of Estonia. Funding on that scale cannot help but deliver some results.

dunno about others but latvia paid it back (in advance?)

Second, all three have seen mass emigration over the last four years, particularly amongst the young. All three have the highest emigration rates in the EU, with 24 people out of every 1,000 leaving Lithuania in the last year. This, in turn, has restrained domestic unemployment; and while people should be free to go and find work where they can, their exit hardly counts as a ringing endorsement for the government. Rather than protest, as Kattel and Raudla suggest, many are choosing to leave.

ppl are moving all the time, as you said stop thinking countryballs. lol at suggesting to protest.

Third, all three are very closely tied to comparatively prosperous neighbours.

not true


and btw

On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies

On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies

On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies

On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies

On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies

read this a couple of times and think about logical fail in this idiom

Being Greek doesn't mean you can use demagogy and say shit with impunity.

"A state of reduced spending and increased frugality in the financial sector. Austerity measures generally refer to the measures taken by governments to reduce expenditures in an attempt to shrink their growing budget deficits." definition of austerity from investopedia.

Austerity is inevitable. Either grexit or deal with creditors, doesn't matter, both lead to austerity measures. It is a rare financial event when debt gets so out of control and you'd be a complete fucking idiot to think creditors expect to get paid in full. It is not even a debate if austerity will occur. How you don't understand this is beyond me. It will get a lot uglier before it starts getting slowly better.

coulnt resist to read the 2nd one


In his book Mr Pogatsa targets damaging cultural as well as economic myths about Greece. For instance one commonly held view is that Greeks are particularly lazy and unproductive. However, as Pogatsa points out, “according to the OECD, the average Greek worked 2,120 hours in the crisis year of 2008. That is 690 hours more than the average German, 467 hours more than the average Brit and 356 more than the OECD average.”

yes its the reported hours that matter
facepalm.jpg

Furthermore, contrary to popular belief Greek public servants did not receive significantly greater levels of compensation than the European average. And social spending in Greece was much lower than the European average.

pardon me, but what does comparing to eu average achieve? this a sick manipulation, i want to see a comparison with hungary, bulgaria etc

blah blah and bunch of excuses at the end, while not providing a solution

On July 08 2015 08:50 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/the-myth-of-successful-baltic-austerity only read the fist one and its pretty much bs

Article is bulshit, i live in Estonia.

Lebowski has exposed himself enough in this thread. Any further discussions won't amount to much i'm afraid.

Dogmeat and Baal got it right.

On July 08 2015 09:08 cariadon wrote: Show nested quote + On July 08 2015 08:50 dogmeat wrote:   On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/the-myth-of-successful-baltic-austerity only read the fist one and its pretty much bs Article is bulshit, i live in Estonia. Lebowski has exposed himself enough in this thread. Any further discussions won't amount to much i'm afraid. Dogmeat and Baal got it right.

dude , you use "exposed" as if I have a secret agenda. I'm sincere and ready to be corrected through reason. I have no idea what actuallygoes on in these countries, I linked the articles with the remark "food for thought" not as if they were 100% correct. Such arguments against austerity are quite popular if you're not aware of them, that's why I linked
the fact that you encourage everyone to stop discussing with me while I try hard to be polite, precise and open minded only reveals that you're not interested in battling the ideas that you disagree with in a manner that shows intellectual honesty.
Personally attacking/discrediting the person you disagree with isn't a real method to argue, it's more of a cheap trick

On July 08 2015 08:50 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies read this a couple of times and think about logical fail in this idiom

I wrote "evil capitalist lobbies", I was trying to be ridiculous from the left point of view to contrast with the "EU commies", I dunno what your point is

On July 08 2015 08:50 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: Reforms certainly have to be made. when? after another 5 years? lol

if you think no harsh reforms have been made in the past 5 years you either know nothing on the subject or you're trying to make a point too hard
do you want me to start posting quotes from EU institution officials speaking of all the harsh measures greece has already endured? or stats about the percentage of wages and pensions already cut? or how many people have been fired?
I would argue that the problem is of quality of reforms and not of quantity

On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: austerity as medicine is doubted a lot by economists around the world right now, I'd be lying if I said i could be certain on the matter and I could be convinced that it is necessary, right now the whole field isn't concrete science like eg physics, and at times it appears like dudes saying completely different stuff, I just see what implementing austerity programs has brought here and what the people who stand for it predict will happen compared to what actually happened.

Please give 1 option for Greece that doesn't involve austerity. There is none. Economics will never be a "concrete science".

On July 08 2015 10:55 lebowski wrote: dude , you use "exposed" as if I have a secret agenda. I'm sincere and ready to be corrected through reason. I have no idea what actuallygoes on in these countries, I linked the articles with the remark "food for thought" not as if they were 100% correct. Such arguments against austerity are quite popular if you're not aware of them, that's why I linked

You have shit for breakfast, lunch and dinner? It explains where your "thoughts" are coming from, linking worthless sites. You are unable to obtain the correct facts, which means you can't draw sensible conclusions. That is my agenda. You aren't providing any expert opinion here, just another clueless biased poster stating his case.

On July 08 2015 08:57 cariadon wrote: Being Greek doesn't mean you can use demagogy and say shit with impunity. "A state of reduced spending and increased frugality in the financial sector. Austerity measures generally refer to the measures taken by governments to reduce expenditures in an attempt to shrink their growing budget deficits." definition of austerity from investopedia. Austerity is inevitable. Either grexit or deal with creditors, doesn't matter, both lead to austerity measures. It is a rare financial event when debt gets so out of control and you'd be a complete fucking idiot to think creditors expect to get paid in full. It is not even a debate if austerity will occur. How you don't understand this is beyond me. It will get a lot uglier before it starts getting slowly better.

demagogy? say shit with impunity? Do you think I'm the first person to ever talk suggest anything against austerity?
Or that you have higher credentials than everyone who has ever said anything bad about austerity?

OF COURSE austerity is inevitable, especially inside the EU. Austerity won't occur, it has already occurred in greece, I'm afraid that what you don't understand is that I'm arguing that more of it would be too much and certainly won't solve the whole "take a loan to repay debts while financially crippled" circle.

On July 08 2015 11:20 cariadon wrote: Show nested quote + On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: austerity as medicine is doubted a lot by economists around the world right now, I'd be lying if I said i could be certain on the matter and I could be convinced that it is necessary, right now the whole field isn't concrete science like eg physics, and at times it appears like dudes saying completely different stuff, I just see what implementing austerity programs has brought here and what the people who stand for it predict will happen compared to what actually happened. Please give 1 option for Greece that doesn't involve austerity. There is none. Economics will never be a "concrete science".   On July 08 2015 10:55 lebowski wrote: dude , you use "exposed" as if I have a secret agenda. I'm sincere and ready to be corrected through reason. I have no idea what actuallygoes on in these countries, I linked the articles with the remark "food for thought" not as if they were 100% correct. Such arguments against austerity are quite popular if you're not aware of them, that's why I linked You have shit for breakfast, lunch and dinner? It explains where your "thoughts" are coming from, linking worthless sites. You are unable to obtain the correct facts, which means you can't draw sensible conclusions. That is my agenda. You aren't providing any expert opinion here, just another clueless biased poster stating his case.

thanks for personally attacking me, it further proves who is too emotionally invested to be fair.
as I said before, greece is already under the influence of austerity, I'm arguing that more of it isn't helping, if that's being clueless and biased for you, you could start posting facts instead of opinions and insults, I assure you I'm gonna take it
seriously, even if you 're trying hard to turn this an insult war
peace

edit: btw if the article I linked as "food for thought" that involved your country is indeed biased or completely wrong and that's the reason you took offense, I apologize. I don't claim to be all knowing, the internet is a weird place and credible info hard to find and tbh I've seen this line of argument a lot and have no easy way of disproving it. You could point out the fallacies or propaganda in it if you want. I have nothing other to gain from this discussion other see how others think and explain how I view the situation, eager to be corrected

I'm just a dick sometimes, nothing personal. Naive on your part to post trash articles and not get called out for it.

It is hard to tell truth from fiction. There are certain things, that after given consideration, most everyone should be able to agree on. You've made solid points that i agree with, especially about reforms. I don't consciously have a pro troika or anti-Greece stance. Paraphrasing an economic heavyweight: Greece is a patient in financial intensive care and is being supplied blood bags (money) to keep it going. Cutting spending can only be taken so far and recovery lay in growth. I feel like Greek people underestimate the dramatic effects of a Grexit so i'm rooting for a deal. Positioned between scylla and charybdis is no joke.

What can be done to encourage growth? What's the plan and is it achievable?

On July 09 2015 09:41 cariadon wrote:

I'm impressed of how knowledgeable of political history/ background in greece this speech is

On July 09 2015 09:41 cariadon wrote:

wtf am i watching, fucking disgusting

On July 08 2015 10:58 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On July 08 2015 08:50 dogmeat wrote:   On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies read this a couple of times and think about logical fail in this idiom I wrote "evil capitalist lobbies", I was trying to be ridiculous from the left point of view to contrast with the "EU commies", I dunno what your point is

you can hardly call it capitalism when one can gain advantage on the market by lobbying

The stress Tsipras must be under... definitely taking a few years off his life.

Realistically, he's fucked either way. There's no right answer for him here. He'll be demonized no matter what happens.

Gotta say, respect to Lebowski for staying civil throughout all the attacks on his thoughts. People gotta remember he's living in the middle of the storm, and most likely influenced (as we all would be) by everything around him. The media, word of mouth, people lining up at the atm's, everything going to shit...

It's easy to say what should objectively be done, a whole other matter when you're the one who's looking at all the brutal times ahead for you and your people due to xyz measures.

On July 10 2015 01:36 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On July 08 2015 10:58 lebowski wrote:   On July 08 2015 08:50 dogmeat wrote:   On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies read this a couple of times and think about logical fail in this idiom I wrote "evil capitalist lobbies", I was trying to be ridiculous from the left point of view to contrast with the "EU commies", I dunno what your point is you can hardly call it capitalism when one can gain advantage on the market by lobbying

but lobbying is everywhere (unavoidable in capitalism according to marxists), should we inform the communists that the system they're fighting isn't capitalism?

capitalism died in 1913

On June 29 2015 00:00 Spitfiree wrote: cliffs on how this happened: Taxes in Greece are absurdly low Eventhough they are low, taxpayers dont pay them Their social system pays waaaaaaaaaay too much, huge pensions and shit Their pension age is 57 Thats not even something they cannot fix, they lack budget income and have huge expenses. Last proposal Cypras did was increasing certain taxes and possibly the pension age and EU told him to fuck off and that they dont want tax increases but budget costs cuts, which is obviously the only normal any adequate human being would want considering that even if they increase the taxes people still wont fucking pay them. Cypras however is a uber socialistic fuck that should be burned together with all of his proletariat brothers and didn't wanna cut pensions and shit so instead now they wont have money for anything. Way to go... Guess they deserve it considering they voted for him, but then again I don't beleive in voting Pipeline project wont happen since my country told Russia to fuck off and so did Turkey so they can't really reach Greece anyways Greece's administration just makes it look like they are getting bullied when in fact the EU, IMF and all of the negotiators just reached their breaking point after many many proposals. Greece was arrogant enough to ask for a release from the debt and im happy that the EU wasnt dumb enough to actually approve of that Sadly a lot of people will get fucked cause the administration are braindead egoistic pieces of shit edit: Also Defrag they are limited to 600-700eu per day per card from ATMs not 60 lawl :D problem is the banks cant keep up with money supply, considering there are queues at ATMs

Mostly correct except the statement that taxes in Greece are absurdly low. Not even close to true. This comes from the incorrect assumption that higher taxes = increased tax revenue, which is not true.

A) Because an environment of high taxes increases the temptation to evade but more importantly
B) High taxes, which Greece has had compared a purely capitalistic model, discourages risk and entrepenuership which actually creates real wealth and sustainable tax revenue

In truth, it's simply that their economies import/export ratio is pathetic, which means that in order to keep their quality of life from lowering relative to other nations, they needed to borrow or balance their deficit. Instead of sucking in up and creating real economic growth through short-term painful change, they chose the easy way out (like most fiscally progressive entities do) and borrowed irresponsibly because that's what the stupid people want and that's what they'll vote for.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/30/bus...ook/the-hard-line-on-greece.html?_r=0
really interesting article

I haven't followed the Greek crisis, but I stumbled upon this recent video after I watched a different video on the same YouTube channel.

The video probably doesn't add anything new to the conversation, but it is new for me because, as I previously stated, I haven't followed the Greek crisis up until now.

On July 10 2015 09:58 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On July 10 2015 01:36 dogmeat wrote:   On July 08 2015 10:58 lebowski wrote:   On July 08 2015 08:50 dogmeat wrote:   On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies read this a couple of times and think about logical fail in this idiom I wrote "evil capitalist lobbies", I was trying to be ridiculous from the left point of view to contrast with the "EU commies", I dunno what your point is you can hardly call it capitalism when one can gain advantage on the market by lobbying but lobbying is everywhere (unavoidable in capitalism according to marxists), should we inform the communists that the system they're fighting isn't capitalism?

The fuck are you talking about, actually it is a minority of countries who allow private funding to politicians, in most democracies that is a serious crime and political parties are funded by taxes.

And yes a state heavily controlled, wallstreet manipulated and central bank funded economy is certainly not capitalism

And yes a state heavily controlled, wallstreet manipulated and central bank funded economy is certainly not capitalism

But there is a new economy emerging now, and its not centrally banked. And although wallstreet has tried to get involved. The new regulations basically restrict it from participated in this new not central banked economy.

On August 10 2015 03:58 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On July 10 2015 09:58 lebowski wrote:   On July 10 2015 01:36 dogmeat wrote:   On July 08 2015 10:58 lebowski wrote:   On July 08 2015 08:50 dogmeat wrote:   On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies read this a couple of times and think about logical fail in this idiom I wrote "evil capitalist lobbies", I was trying to be ridiculous from the left point of view to contrast with the "EU commies", I dunno what your point is you can hardly call it capitalism when one can gain advantage on the market by lobbying but lobbying is everywhere (unavoidable in capitalism according to marxists), should we inform the communists that the system they're fighting isn't capitalism? The fuck are you talking about, actually it is a minority of countries who allow private funding to politicians, in most democracies that is a serious crime and political parties are funded by taxes. And yes a state heavily controlled, wallstreet manipulated and central bank funded economy is certainly not capitalism

Just because private funding for political parties is regulated/not permitted you think there's no lobbying? Do I really need to start mentioning examples?
Maybe there's no political corruption in mexico and I'm influenced by what's happening in Greece, do you find that regulations tend to keep the media independent and unbiased as well?

Words are only tools to describe stuff, to try and give a popularly used word a new, different meaning is simply non practical; usually the main (political) motivation to try to reestablish a word's meaning is that stupid people tend to think in slogans. (eg "terrorism" )
Capitalism is a word that has been broadly used for hundreds of years describing something other than the corruption/lobby/state free utopia that you have in mind. Assuming that you don't think ill of this forum's avg IQ, focusing on the orthodox definition of words is completely pointless

your ignorance puts me on tilt, basically everything you spewed out in this thread was nonsense

i call you a retard, assuming that you don't think ill of this forum's avg IQ, focusing on the orthodox definition of a retard is completely pointless

it's an honour to be called a retard by you man.
If you wish you can correct my ignorance on my last post (all of them would be too much)

I don't give a single fuck on what you think this system should be called, or what capitalism really is according to your unique pov . All I know is that most people call it capitalism and that's why I used this word. Words are tools.
Now go somewhere to personally attack someone who values your opinions

I just read the last two pages and I wont comment on the specific situation in Greece but imo it is obvious that some people here have different ideas about what capitalism is. So I think it might be a good idea to set a basis that everyone should agree one.
Iam gonna quote Wikipedia for Capitalism here:

"Capitalism is an economic system and a mode of production in which trade, industries, and the means of production are largely or entirely privately owned. Private firms and proprietorships usually operate in order to generate profit, but may operate as private nonprofit organizations.[1][2] Central characteristics of capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labour and, in some situations, fully competitive markets.[3][4] In a capitalist economy, the parties to a transaction typically determine the prices at which they exchange assets, goods, and services.[5]"
Source: first lines of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

Of course this should be common knowledge to everyone that is commenting on capitalism in this thread by reading along the comments I got a feeling that some of the posters are definitely not aware of the "definition".

On August 10 2015 13:55 punix wrote:In a capitalist economy, the parties to a transaction typically determine the prices at which they exchange assets, goods, and services.[5]"

wage, price settings, protectionism, tariffs +billion of other regulations,
special mention: central banking

On August 10 2015 13:55 punix wrote: I just read the last two pages and I wont comment on the specific situation in Greece but imo it is obvious that some people here have different ideas about what capitalism is. So I think it might be a good idea to set a basis that everyone should agree one. Iam gonna quote Wikipedia for Capitalism here: "Capitalism is an economic system and a mode of production in which trade, industries, and the means of production are largely or entirely privately owned. Private firms and proprietorships usually operate in order to generate profit, but may operate as private nonprofit organizations.[1][2] Central characteristics of capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labour and, in some situations, fully competitive markets.[3][4] In a capitalist economy, the parties to a transaction typically determine the prices at which they exchange assets, goods, and services.[5]" Source: first lines of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism Of course this should be common knowledge to everyone that is commenting on capitalism in this thread by reading along the comments I got a feeling that some of the posters are definitely not aware of the "definition".

apparently this system died in 1913
beware not to put dogmeat on tilt with your copied definitions, he has a short temper

yeah except almost none of these points hold true in current system

On August 10 2015 11:21 lebowski wrote: If you wish you can correct my ignorance on my last post (all of them would be too much)

this whole topic is a collection of you posting bs and others correcting you #greekpride

On August 10 2015 15:21 dogmeat wrote: yeah except almost none of these points hold true in current system Show nested quote + On August 10 2015 11:21 lebowski wrote: If you wish you can correct my ignorance on my last post (all of them would be too much) this whole topic is a collection of you posting bs and others correcting you #greekpride

you are knocking on the wrong door if you think cheap country bashing is going to get on my nerves. I don't even consider myself a patriot.
Btw repeating to someone that they post bs is neither an argument nor a sign of intelligence

Also lol @ almost none of the wiki definition holding true in current system.
Perhaps after a lot of debate you could convince someone of this if you somehow found the skills.
But to hold such a rare perception of wtf is going on with the world and to act like a cardinal who can't even bear with the ignorants thinking otherwise is troll level material

or maybe just think for a second how strict labour regulations and central banking deny these points. i also hope you know central bank, government agency holding monopoly over currency, is one of the points of communist manifesto

Central characteristics of capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labour and, in some situations, fully competitive markets

Interference/regulations from the state were obviously there when the communist manifesto was written. Just because you think state-type intervention holds the system back it doesn't mean that you redefine what a capitalistic society means historically. Whether capitalism can even function without the state intervening is up for debate, my guess is that having a very strong opinion on this isn't by itself enough to convince anyone

since you are insisting on debating over a pretty vague quote from wiki, check this out:
Socialism is a social and economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy,[1][2] as well as a political theory and movement that aims at the establishment of such a system.[3][4] "Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, state ownership (achieved by nationalization), citizen ownership of equity, or any combination of these.[5]

one could post this def and claim "he doesnt give a single fuck on what you think this system should be called, or what socialism really is according to your unique pov"

lebowski has been mostly correct in this thread. any competent observer of how successful austerity is under recession can check all the countries its been applied in, over the past 30 years or so. And we know why the results have always been terrible, because it reduces aggregate demand. So it makes no sense as an economic policy. In fact there arn't that many winners over austerity, the rich are losing as well here (although it is the rich that have been bailed out by the ECB and not the poorer greek people). It cant be that money is the only motive here, The people in power are sending a message to other states, italy, spain, ect. That this is what happens when people get out of line and try to elect a left wing alternative.

All political terms are subject to ideological and real definitions, any reader of Orwell will know this. If capitalism is supposed to be about free markets as well as private enterprise, then one cannot ignore the fact that corporations become more oligopololistc the more influence they get over the state. Plenty of evidence for that, one can read the evidence in a book called 'the endless crisis'. Actually, if economists took these facts into account they would say that capitalism is highly inneficient since it tends to ologipolize(which means resources arn't allocated efficiently in a competitive market). Certainly by the free market definition of capitalism, capitalism has never really existed but especially in the 20th century. since corporations themselves are state interventions in the market, to create limited liability. This means that by definition of free market capitalism, it cannot exist as corporations are a violation of it. However, there have been times where there was pretty much no labor regulation, like in 1810 when there was essentially no regulation in labour and 4 year olds could work in coal mines and the satanic mills

On August 10 2015 16:46 dogmeat wrote: since you are insisting on debating over a pretty vague quote from wiki, check this out: Socialism is a social and economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy,[1][2] as well as a political theory and movement that aims at the establishment of such a system.[3][4] "Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, state ownership (achieved by nationalization), citizen ownership of equity, or any combination of these.[5] one could post this def and claim "he doesnt give a single fuck on what you think this system should be called, or what socialism really is according to your unique pov"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states

If we -at least- agree that words are tools used to efficiently communicate, then judging by the above list of self proclaimed socialist states you'd be misunderstood if you stated that the system we live is socialist.

If eg it ever came to the point that socialism meant exactly communism, I'd have no trouble if you used them interchangeably as long as we managed to understand each other.
The word capitalism historically and in modern use is still massively used to describe systems that also include socialist elements, state intervention etc

Maybe it shouldn't; if you wanted to make a point that the whole thing shouldn't really be called capitalistic, you would have been more effective had you left out the sand in vagina attitude one liners
But no, you have to be the guy who tilts over simple disagreement with his own choice of words, not even disagreement regarding the content of these words

http://imgur.com/gallery/tuG5A