Greek crisis: Banks shut for a week - Page 5

So yesterday Greece voted on a referendum if they should take the offer the creditors gave them 1 week ago, a very pointless referendum considering the offer wasn't standing anymore at the time of the referendum. They voted with "no" which shows how brainwashed by Tsipras the greeks are. What's absurd is that it doesn't matter if the IMF and the ECB established wrong politics past years as Greece has no other option, but to get help from them yet they are going against them. What do they think the institutions will do now? You know a nation is desperate when they offer amnesty to people that stole money and put them in Swiss bank, if they transfer them back to Greece. At this point only a complete idiot would transfer his money into greek banks, not to mention when it comes to millions. Anyways Tsipras and Syryza won the referendum with a majority decision and think they are strong now so he requests new negotiations with a legit offer with debt remit which is absurd. This referendum means jack shit to the EU. Just because politicians in Greece found leverage to use on their people doesn't matter they've found leverage on the ECB & IMF. Merkel has said all bridges are burned now. Everything points to Grexit now however its politics and you never know

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/in...ologise-with-huge-horse-2012051527146

reasons why the referendum result was 61/39 imo :

a) all private media were heavily biased favouring "yes", some not even giving air time to "no" supporters or rallies.All the former prime ministers also supported "yes". Both the media and the ministers are considered synonymous to corruption and intertwined interests to local lobbying (tbh rightully so) so this basically backfired

b)the last 5 years have brought a humanitarian crisis and crippled the economy, this has been acknowledged by EU institutions.
IMF report concludes that in 2035, if everything goes perfectly with the programs intended, the debt will still not be sustainable. Yet the institutions consistently denied on bringing the debt issue up on negotiations or new measures/packages planning. Poor people basically believe they are fucked either way

c) It has been obvious through a number of moves and statements that there's a plan to overthrow the greek gov and replace it with technocrats; EU officials even announced to the press that they'll never reach an agreement unless the gov is replaced. People who always heavily criticized suriza (like my father who didn't want to discuss with people who liked them) found this a very non democratic move.
What's the point of voting if you can't even partially affect eg who gets to be taxed with the new memorandum measures?(given that the negotiations had come very close to reaching an agreement but then the IMF disagreed on the equivalent measures suriza had proposed) This heavily overshadowed the "Euro vs Drachma" dilemma that both "yes" supporters and some EU officials claimed the referendum really meant.

anyway it's prob true that the result of the referendum is meaningless and it was a political move that happened mainly because otherwise elections were unavoidable ( suriza can't control it's components to vote for any sort of unpopular agreement). Elections at this point would be too much both for budget and deadlines. No idea what's going to happen next tbh but certainly nothing too good for those who already suffer and the almost dead economy

I'd get more into detail but I'm not on my own pc these days

Dunno but there is a strong lobby here saying SYRIZA are heavily influenced by Russia & Putin and info like that here is only being pushed when its in someone's interest.
Now I don't care if thats true or not, but I'm guessing the info is coming out of EU lobby and that will probably be spread through the whole continent which will make the political situation in your country even worse

Greek government heavily supported NO telling people this will only make greek's government part stronger in future negotiations.
European leaders made it clear that voting NO will mean no to euro-zone and euro as currency.

The question was do you agree with these specific austerity measures EU is suggesting ? YES or NO

63% vote no...ggnore

Eu officials lost a lot of credibility by interfering out of their institutional position and some times even straight out lying to influence the result of the referendum, like Juncker when he said his plan didn't involve pension and wage cuts, or Shulz who got criticized for constantly interfering by many european socialdemocrats. You're probably right on the gg part, but it' probably the same either way

On July 07 2015 10:32 lebowski wrote: Eu officials lost a lot of credibility

greece lost credibility 15 years ago after cheating their way into eurozone. whats your point?


and your question: almost every eu rep has a history of being hardcore socialist/communist and you could see the implementation of their retarded ideas regulating almost every aspect of our lifes

On July 04 2015 07:08 Pb wrote: Show nested quote + That's completely false. The Austerity policy makes no sense as an economic policy. If you look at Greek debt it is higher now (relative to gdp) than when it started under the austerity policies. So the austerity has failed at what it was supposedly meant to do, get rid of the debt. Austerity measures were never implemented as they should/agreed upon on Greece.

this
obv any austerity leads to short-term unemployment and economic decline when you are dealing with such a massive public sector. public sector wages and pensions should have been reduced to bulgaria/albania lvl

^
a) stop thinking in countryballs, as if a government cheating to get into the eurozone 15 years ago should morally have anything to do with millions of people's lives today. My point is that greek people didn't believe the referendum question to be "euro or drachma" when the EU officials told them so and that's because they had lost credibility with their latest statements and actions.

b) stating that there's a network of (former?)communists who regulate every aspect of our lives in retarded ways isn't an example. I've never heard anyone accusing the EU of being too "left" tbh

c) what should have been implemented that didn't? I'm genuinely curious. 25% unemployment and gdp on free fall isn't exactly short term decline. What do you think about the IMF report that shows debt not being sustainable even in20 years with the best growth rates that could be expected?
UN are warning of humanitarian crisis in greece already, the price of basic products here are really higher than the countries you mention, basically everyone would starve if that happened

On July 07 2015 17:34 lebowski wrote: ^ a) stop thinking in countryballs, as if a government cheating to get into the eurozone 15 years ago should morally have anything to do with millions of people's lives today. My point is that greek people didn't believe the referendum question to be "euro or drachma" when the EU officials told them so and that's because they had lost credibility with their latest statements and actions.

15 years ago? and what about relentless spending ever since? puiblic sector is so big there almost everyone was benefiting from it. so your humble solution is to force ppl from all the eu/western coutries to pay for your party? including poor pensioners from bulgaria. coz its evil government fault?

On July 07 2015 17:34 lebowski wrote: b) I've never heard anyone accusing the EU of being too "left" tbh

probably b/c u r from greece. eg whole agriculture is basically centrally planned in eu, which hurts badly almost every country (including greece) except for france

On July 07 2015 17:34 lebowski wrote: c) what should have been implemented that didn't? I'm genuinely curious. 25% unemployment and gdp on free fall isn't exactly short term decline. What do you think about the IMF report that shows debt not being sustainable even in20 years with the best growth rates that could be expected?

coz cuts werent radical enough and now you are stuck in the middle ground when public sector is still too big to reduce debts yet economy output isnt big enough to support it. greece economy is at bulgaria lvl at best, and so should be rents and pensions in public sector

On July 07 2015 17:34 lebowski wrote: UN are warning of humanitarian crisis in greece already, the price of basic products here are really higher than the countries you mention, basically everyone would starve if that happened

thats what happens when you inflate economy with cheap money, prices go up, economics 101. short term effect

On July 07 2015 13:21 dogmeat wrote: obv any austerity leads to short-term unemployment and economic decline when you are dealing with such a massive public sector. public sector wages and pensions should have been reduced to bulgaria/albania lvl

well not as low as here since the pension ehre is ridiculously small but you got a point

On July 07 2015 18:01 dogmeat wrote: 15 years ago? and what about relentless spending ever since? puiblic sector is so big there almost everyone was benefiting from it. so your humble solution is to force ppl from all the eu/western coutries to pay for your party? including poor pensioners from bulgaria. coz its evil government fault?

Noone should be paying for greece. Obv other countries should pay as less as possible and have their loans repaid as fast as possible (with interest). This requires greek economy standing on it's feet, debt sustainability and getting out of the vicious "borrow to repay debt" circle. Reforms certainly have to be made. I think almost everyone here accepts that, what people don't agree on is becoming a perpetual debt colony with no talks of debt sustainability, not being able to even have a partial say (on a national level) on eg taxation specifics and last but not least the obsession with further austerity as a dogma to achieve growth .

coz cuts werent radical enough and now you are stuck in the middle ground when public sector is still too big to reduce debts yet economy output isnt big enough to support it. greece economy is at bulgaria lvl at best, and so should be rents and pensions in public sector

austerity as medicine is doubted a lot by economists around the world right now, I'd be lying if I said i could be certain on the matter and I could be convinced that it is necessary, right now the whole field isn't concrete science like eg physics, and at times it appears like dudes saying completely different stuff, I just see what implementing austerity programs has brought here and what the people who stand for it predict will happen compared to what actually happened.
Greece's (indeed) irresponsible public spending of the past has been exaggerated to fit in the whole "hard working north, lazy south" narrative; before the crisis the state's expenditure in relation to GDP was below the european average.Today the numbers make it seem like public spending on pensions and wages is huge but that's because GDP has been on free fall for 5-6 years.
food for thought:
http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/the-myth-of-successful-baltic-austerity
http://www.thepressproject.net/articl...-is-based-on-a-myth-and-will-not-work

It's funny, around here I've always heard of the EU's agricultural policies on cotton corn and sugar in greece being attributed to private interests and lobbying. I guess according to one's beliefs the perspective varies from blaming the EU commies to blaming the evil capitalist lobbies

On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: Reforms certainly have to be made.

when? after another 5 years? lol

On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/the-myth-of-successful-baltic-austerity

only read the fist one and its pretty much bs

Sharp-eyed readers may have noticed that if your economy shrinks by 25%, and then grows by 5.5%, you’re still a good few years away, at least, from simply getting back to where you were.

well... duh... but its better than going default

Rainer Kattel and Ringa Raudla give three reasons why. First, all three rely on massive transfers of funding from the EU – 20% of the national budget in the case of Estonia. Funding on that scale cannot help but deliver some results.

dunno about others but latvia paid it back (in advance?)

Second, all three have seen mass emigration over the last four years, particularly amongst the young. All three have the highest emigration rates in the EU, with 24 people out of every 1,000 leaving Lithuania in the last year. This, in turn, has restrained domestic unemployment; and while people should be free to go and find work where they can, their exit hardly counts as a ringing endorsement for the government. Rather than protest, as Kattel and Raudla suggest, many are choosing to leave.

ppl are moving all the time, as you said stop thinking countryballs. lol at suggesting to protest.

Third, all three are very closely tied to comparatively prosperous neighbours.

not true


and btw

On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies

On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies

On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies

On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies

On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies

read this a couple of times and think about logical fail in this idiom

Being Greek doesn't mean you can use demagogy and say shit with impunity.

"A state of reduced spending and increased frugality in the financial sector. Austerity measures generally refer to the measures taken by governments to reduce expenditures in an attempt to shrink their growing budget deficits." definition of austerity from investopedia.

Austerity is inevitable. Either grexit or deal with creditors, doesn't matter, both lead to austerity measures. It is a rare financial event when debt gets so out of control and you'd be a complete fucking idiot to think creditors expect to get paid in full. It is not even a debate if austerity will occur. How you don't understand this is beyond me. It will get a lot uglier before it starts getting slowly better.

coulnt resist to read the 2nd one


In his book Mr Pogatsa targets damaging cultural as well as economic myths about Greece. For instance one commonly held view is that Greeks are particularly lazy and unproductive. However, as Pogatsa points out, “according to the OECD, the average Greek worked 2,120 hours in the crisis year of 2008. That is 690 hours more than the average German, 467 hours more than the average Brit and 356 more than the OECD average.”

yes its the reported hours that matter
facepalm.jpg

Furthermore, contrary to popular belief Greek public servants did not receive significantly greater levels of compensation than the European average. And social spending in Greece was much lower than the European average.

pardon me, but what does comparing to eu average achieve? this a sick manipulation, i want to see a comparison with hungary, bulgaria etc

blah blah and bunch of excuses at the end, while not providing a solution

On July 08 2015 08:50 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/the-myth-of-successful-baltic-austerity only read the fist one and its pretty much bs

Article is bulshit, i live in Estonia.

Lebowski has exposed himself enough in this thread. Any further discussions won't amount to much i'm afraid.

Dogmeat and Baal got it right.

On July 08 2015 09:08 cariadon wrote: Show nested quote + On July 08 2015 08:50 dogmeat wrote:   On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/the-myth-of-successful-baltic-austerity only read the fist one and its pretty much bs Article is bulshit, i live in Estonia. Lebowski has exposed himself enough in this thread. Any further discussions won't amount to much i'm afraid. Dogmeat and Baal got it right.

dude , you use "exposed" as if I have a secret agenda. I'm sincere and ready to be corrected through reason. I have no idea what actuallygoes on in these countries, I linked the articles with the remark "food for thought" not as if they were 100% correct. Such arguments against austerity are quite popular if you're not aware of them, that's why I linked
the fact that you encourage everyone to stop discussing with me while I try hard to be polite, precise and open minded only reveals that you're not interested in battling the ideas that you disagree with in a manner that shows intellectual honesty.
Personally attacking/discrediting the person you disagree with isn't a real method to argue, it's more of a cheap trick

On July 08 2015 08:50 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: capitalist lobbies read this a couple of times and think about logical fail in this idiom

I wrote "evil capitalist lobbies", I was trying to be ridiculous from the left point of view to contrast with the "EU commies", I dunno what your point is

On July 08 2015 08:50 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: Reforms certainly have to be made. when? after another 5 years? lol

if you think no harsh reforms have been made in the past 5 years you either know nothing on the subject or you're trying to make a point too hard
do you want me to start posting quotes from EU institution officials speaking of all the harsh measures greece has already endured? or stats about the percentage of wages and pensions already cut? or how many people have been fired?
I would argue that the problem is of quality of reforms and not of quantity

On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: austerity as medicine is doubted a lot by economists around the world right now, I'd be lying if I said i could be certain on the matter and I could be convinced that it is necessary, right now the whole field isn't concrete science like eg physics, and at times it appears like dudes saying completely different stuff, I just see what implementing austerity programs has brought here and what the people who stand for it predict will happen compared to what actually happened.

Please give 1 option for Greece that doesn't involve austerity. There is none. Economics will never be a "concrete science".

On July 08 2015 10:55 lebowski wrote: dude , you use "exposed" as if I have a secret agenda. I'm sincere and ready to be corrected through reason. I have no idea what actuallygoes on in these countries, I linked the articles with the remark "food for thought" not as if they were 100% correct. Such arguments against austerity are quite popular if you're not aware of them, that's why I linked

You have shit for breakfast, lunch and dinner? It explains where your "thoughts" are coming from, linking worthless sites. You are unable to obtain the correct facts, which means you can't draw sensible conclusions. That is my agenda. You aren't providing any expert opinion here, just another clueless biased poster stating his case.

On July 08 2015 08:57 cariadon wrote: Being Greek doesn't mean you can use demagogy and say shit with impunity. "A state of reduced spending and increased frugality in the financial sector. Austerity measures generally refer to the measures taken by governments to reduce expenditures in an attempt to shrink their growing budget deficits." definition of austerity from investopedia. Austerity is inevitable. Either grexit or deal with creditors, doesn't matter, both lead to austerity measures. It is a rare financial event when debt gets so out of control and you'd be a complete fucking idiot to think creditors expect to get paid in full. It is not even a debate if austerity will occur. How you don't understand this is beyond me. It will get a lot uglier before it starts getting slowly better.

demagogy? say shit with impunity? Do you think I'm the first person to ever talk suggest anything against austerity?
Or that you have higher credentials than everyone who has ever said anything bad about austerity?

OF COURSE austerity is inevitable, especially inside the EU. Austerity won't occur, it has already occurred in greece, I'm afraid that what you don't understand is that I'm arguing that more of it would be too much and certainly won't solve the whole "take a loan to repay debts while financially crippled" circle.

On July 08 2015 11:20 cariadon wrote: Show nested quote + On July 08 2015 06:48 lebowski wrote: austerity as medicine is doubted a lot by economists around the world right now, I'd be lying if I said i could be certain on the matter and I could be convinced that it is necessary, right now the whole field isn't concrete science like eg physics, and at times it appears like dudes saying completely different stuff, I just see what implementing austerity programs has brought here and what the people who stand for it predict will happen compared to what actually happened. Please give 1 option for Greece that doesn't involve austerity. There is none. Economics will never be a "concrete science".   On July 08 2015 10:55 lebowski wrote: dude , you use "exposed" as if I have a secret agenda. I'm sincere and ready to be corrected through reason. I have no idea what actuallygoes on in these countries, I linked the articles with the remark "food for thought" not as if they were 100% correct. Such arguments against austerity are quite popular if you're not aware of them, that's why I linked You have shit for breakfast, lunch and dinner? It explains where your "thoughts" are coming from, linking worthless sites. You are unable to obtain the correct facts, which means you can't draw sensible conclusions. That is my agenda. You aren't providing any expert opinion here, just another clueless biased poster stating his case.

thanks for personally attacking me, it further proves who is too emotionally invested to be fair.
as I said before, greece is already under the influence of austerity, I'm arguing that more of it isn't helping, if that's being clueless and biased for you, you could start posting facts instead of opinions and insults, I assure you I'm gonna take it
seriously, even if you 're trying hard to turn this an insult war
peace

edit: btw if the article I linked as "food for thought" that involved your country is indeed biased or completely wrong and that's the reason you took offense, I apologize. I don't claim to be all knowing, the internet is a weird place and credible info hard to find and tbh I've seen this line of argument a lot and have no easy way of disproving it. You could point out the fallacies or propaganda in it if you want. I have nothing other to gain from this discussion other see how others think and explain how I view the situation, eager to be corrected