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I hate folding overpairs

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HungarianGOD   . Sep 21 2014 12:04. Posts 416

Live 2/5 game like usual, 9 handed atm. Don't have much info on villain. My image is probably over aggro, people were feeling like I was running them over (dono if this would affect his play though) He has around $900, I cover.

villain is UTG + 2 and limps in. Gets to me at high-jack, I raise to $20 with KsKc, all folds to him, and he calls.

Pot: $45

He checks, I bet $40, he raises to $80, I flat.

Pot: $203

He overbets for $250

His sizing really bothered me. Perhaps he could have TT or JJ here (or maybe even QQ is possible??) which would make it an easy call. I thought it would be very unlikely he would be bluffing the turn with a draw unless it was a huge huge draw like AQd or 53d or something.

I folded like a little wuss; wasn't comfortable with making a $400+ call on the river unless river was a 2 or a king. This deep I think it's a mistake to get $850 in on the flop when the pot was less than 50. But maybe this board is wet enough I could have shipped it in on the turn?

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 Last edit: 21/09/2014 20:23

mnj   United States. Sep 21 2014 15:30. Posts 3848

this is never a bluff.

slight overbet, too many hands you beat here to be folding here. i can see him doing this with TT JJ QQ like you say, but i also see live fish overbet with absolute nuts too like a set.

but think u gotta call call

PoorUser    United States. Sep 21 2014 16:36. Posts 7362

probably fine to fold if he looks nitty

unless this is his first hand at the table, having no reads on villian live is a serious serious crime

Moneys gotta go in hereLast edit: 21/09/2014 16:37

JohnnyBologna   United States. Sep 21 2014 20:04. Posts 1393

early limp usually means small pocket pairs suited connects. good fold.

By doing a little bit at a time, a lot can be done 

fira   United States. Sep 22 2014 03:00. Posts 6277

eh i'd put him on a bad draw before i put him on a good draw - reasoning is he'd have to fold his good draw if you raise (or at least he'd be extremely unhappy), whereas a bad draw is like "whatever, i tried"

i think vs unknowns it's fine to either fold or call, you'll at least get some info if you lose

turn ship is... kinda gross vs his line cause he's not really repping TT-QQ and it's very possible he folds those so you're basically near-dead if he calls. with info on villain this can change

we go on 

casinocasino   Canada. Sep 24 2014 18:52. Posts 3305

if you just make an assumption that fish rarely bluff and follow through like this, he will almost always have 22 ,44, 77, 24s, 47s, and much less often something he JJ+

 Last edit: 24/09/2014 18:53

TimDawg    United States. Sep 25 2014 00:32. Posts 10167

i'm not folding here based on his flop sizing

i find that live players always want to raise bigger in these spots to protect their sets/two pair hands. I'd expect to see something weird a lot here and I probably call/call but I don't think shoving is that terrible on turn

online bob is actually a pretty smart person, not at all like the creepy fucker that sits in the sofa telling me he does nasty shit to me when im asleep - pinballLast edit: 25/09/2014 22:55

r0mx0   Slovakia. Oct 08 2014 02:21. Posts 1580

raise more preflop no ? 20 def not enough ...

You gotta plow through that shit !  

HungarianGOD   . Oct 09 2014 01:35. Posts 416

That day I was just doing raise to $15 + 5 per limper every raise. Not saying that's best for playing against table full of baddies, but I would disagree with '20 def not enough'

phexac   United States. Oct 27 2014 22:04. Posts 2563

If your image is over-aggro, I think I lean towards calling.

I think not raising more pre-flop is a pretty big deal here. You want to charge the villain more to be in (and live players will almost always call bigger raises there) and you also want to avoid this turning into a family pot. Plus, even 900 deep, making him pay $30 to see the flop, gives you a lot more room to fuck up afterwards and still be net positive for the hand--he basically has to outplay you more often and by a greater margin to make up for putting in 6 big blinds preflop with whatever he has versus kings. Basic stuff really, but clearly something to think about and consider. And if you say your image is super aggro, maybe you can get away with raising even more. Depends on the table and players. If you know you can get someone to put in $35 or even $40 there pre-flop when you hold KK, that's huge and not doing it leaves a lot of money on the table.

As played, I think I lean towards calling. Without reads it's pretty hard to give advice, so folding is ok I guess, but I've just seen so many people live randomly do retarded shit, that I think folding KK there is somewhat weak, especially given your claim that people perceive you as overaggro.

Nitting it up since 2006 

!MeaL!   United States. Dec 16 2014 20:32. Posts 100

I would raise more preflop. Has played if your over aggro I may think a fold is good since he's making you think he trying to buy the pot instead he may very well be having a bigger hand. I really do not believe he's bluffing in this spot. But it all depends if he knows your over aggro cause the only reason I may see why he would over bet.

 Last edit: 16/12/2014 20:35

YoMeR   United States. Dec 20 2014 01:50. Posts 12369

  On September 21 2014 11:04 HungarianGOD wrote:
I hate folding overpairs


eZ Life. 

Ryan Neilly   United States. Dec 22 2014 20:51. Posts 1241

ya i standard 25 this vs utg ep limper in late position.

40 is my lead into 50, plays the same.

i'm not folding KK here vs this drooler, and why is he betting 250 into this pot OTT?

smells of a decent draw, maybe like T8dd, 45dd at least as close to as often as the monster hands like 24ss and 44 etc.

i think if you are a normal reg playing 20/20/4 and not overly aggro, his range will tighten up, but if you play a good strong live game opening all edges and exploiting everyone you can, then you will be perceived as being so much weaker than KK here, that a turn ship may actually be the best play in a vacuum vs his percieved range. also given the texture, since you can have so many draws etc, he can still stack off with the TT-QQ. I do think some fish may play AA like this, which would be shitty, obv bottom 2 sets, but i feel really goood with KK here in general.

Ryan Neilly   United States. Dec 22 2014 20:53. Posts 1241

i flat and re-evaluate (edit here -) *in a vacuum* but i am really strong at live reads, and if i believe hes weak at all then i just jam it in after 30-45 seconds.

 Last edit: 22/12/2014 20:56

HungarianGOD   . Dec 24 2014 00:53. Posts 416

I wish my life reads were good, mine are total trash. Or maybe I should say I'm very bad at following those live reads I have. Usually it's "man, my gut really says he has is here, but he only bet $100 into $350... fuck it I'm not folding for $100 I call"

BTW My aggro image has hit a new high in last few weeks, transcending maniac level. The most tight most straight forward player (check-folds flopped mid-pair heads-up, folds top-pair top-kicker to single checkraise headsup, has bluffed 0 hands out of maybe 9000) floated me with out of position with AT, then donk bluffed turn, then bet called river when she rivered 2nd pair on a 4 spade board with no spade. Now if I only had the discipline to play a little bit better...

traxamillion   United States. Dec 25 2014 10:43. Posts 10340

56dd obv

traxamillion   United States. Dec 25 2014 10:53. Posts 10340

hes not limping 53 and 42 but hands like 44, 56 i can see. overbet smells like the combodraw; He bets enough to max out FE, make sure he has a snap call if put ai, leaves sub psb on river to jam if he hits (or maybe bluff i dont know the guy but some people will make this turn overbet instead of betting turn+river because its cheaper and easier and they figure if that huge turn bet gets called they can safely give up river- live mentality. not online balanced play mentality).

If he just a 0 level donk though (and now that I am noticing this c/minraise on flop after writing the first paragraph) he may just be using the pure fish thought process. On flop he hits a monster (set/sp) and slams you with the minraise. Now turn falls and the board is looking wet as it gets so he piles in a massive bet before one of the draws comes in.

Was thinking call I mean this looks exactly like 56dd but that flop m/r has me leaning towards fold now


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