Prisoners Dilemma - Page 8

i would feel better stealing in this game than i do playing poker. I'm sure there are people in poker who are degens and gambling their future away, which i take money from. I feel like i have as much responsibility as the degen since i have more control over his future than they have over theirs.

In this game, all the contestants seem to be people that will be fine if they don't get the money they didn't have in the first place.

As with many many things in life, this is a standard case of co-operative game theory. The dominating strategy might start with picking steal and trying to get the other guy to go split. But pretty soon everyone will follow this strategy and an equilibrium is reached where the net payout per individual is 0.

Instead if everyone makes a global pact to work together and act both in their own interest and that of the group, and pick split 100%, then a second equilibrium is possible where the net payout per individual is way better than 0. Clearly as the payout for everyone is higher in the second case (ignoring the fact the money had to come from somewhere, for now), following the second strategy is the correct way that everyone should live life.

This can be summarised by the well known maxim "do unto others as you would have them do to you", aka the Golden Rule.

My answer to this game is that I would pick split 100% of the time, and people that don't are scumbags. Plain and simple. Analogies to poker or other games like survivor are erroneous (looks like i might have to explain why in a future post if I can be bothered, since from looking at the replies a lot of ppl just don't get it), and saying "it's just a game" is a very weak excuse indeed.

On April 24 2012 22:20 locoo wrote: By your own reasoning you should first educate every fish you play against then before you take his money.

locoo this is so different.

Poker is a game of skill where the best player will win in the long run. If you play, you have to accept you might face better players and loose money. If you outplay another player, that player won't feel betrayed by you, he will just feel outplayed.

This tv show, if both players does the optimal solo play they will both get 0$ for sure, hence they are forced to make a pact to both deviate from optimal play so the EV is no longer 0. If you loose because the other person wasn't able to honor the pact, it doesn't mean you got outplayed, it means you got betrayed/scammed. Being betrayed/scammed doesn't mean your an idiot because anyways even if you went for steal you wouldn't have had any more money.

Anyways i think i'm totally unable to explain this to you guys, i guess Ket/Baal are much better at explaining this than i am (not only this, but for some reasons i'm pretty sure you guys give them more credit. they can say the same thing in different words and you will treat them differently).

On April 24 2012 22:35 Floofy wrote: Show nested quote + On April 24 2012 22:20 locoo wrote: By your own reasoning you should first educate every fish you play against then before you take his money. locoo this is so different. Poker is a game of skill where the best player will win in the long run. If you play, you have to accept you might face better players and loose money. If you outplay another player, that player won't feel betrayed by you, he will just feel outplayed. This tv show, if both players does the optimal solo play they will both get 0$ for sure, hence they are forced to make a pact to both deviate from optimal play so the EV is no longer 0. If you loose because the other person wasn't able to honor the pact, it doesn't mean you got outplayed, it means you got betrayed/scammed. Being betrayed/scammed doesn't mean your an idiot because anyways even if you went for steal you wouldn't have had any more money. Anyways i think i'm totally unable to explain this to you guys, i guess Ket/Baal are much better at explaining this than i am (not only this, but for some reasons i'm pretty sure you guys give them more credit. they can say the same thing in different words and you will treat them differently).

About poker, I agree with you when pros play each other, but what about when a fish joins, oblivious that there's actually people earning money from playing poker and thinking it's just a game of luck. He IS getting scammed, yet no one here would do anything to at least let him know that he WILL lose money if he plays.

I agree with Baal's post. The whole point that I think it is insane is what Tom and Daut are saying. You can not just act sooooooooo differently in a game show and pretend that is not the person you are.


Imagine you met a new a guy who is the nice dad to his kids a loyal husband and a great trustee with his friends. Would you trust that guy and be his new friend? probably yes.

If I told you that he is in charge of water boarding prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, would you still trust that person and treat him as your good friend? If you say yes, his job has nothing to do with his personality, you are either an idiot. Or you are lying to yourself. Those guys don't exist. He is a disaster to be happening.


So if you say "I'm a backstabbing and manipulating others in games to get to the game prize in cash but I would never do outside of games" You are either a disaster to be happening or you are just lying to yourself.



People who trust the other person and split in this game they do not do it because they don't want half of the money. They do it because that is the type of person they are in real life and are willing to share with others for greater happiness. People who steal don't have that characteristic. Which goes a loooooong way when you want to trust people.

I just read most of the replies in the thread. I agree 100% with 100% of floofy's posts. capaneo got some good points too. wont mention names but a few of the other replies itt make me a little sick

I like how you guys make absurd conclusions without having even one good argument.Whatever im done, guess i will have to live with being a scumbag for the rest of my life. In fact i literally didnt see even one good argument throughout the whole 8 pages, obv after having to give the hollocaust as an example makes any argument kinda weak

player I meant the 15lies @ 5mins is probably accurate

On April 24 2012 22:20 locoo wrote: By your own reasoning you should first educate every fish you play against then before you take his money.

No, in poker we both know we are trying to outwit each other in other to win money, the other is blatant lying "ill split" and you dont.

A correct analogy would be agreeing to a flip in poker and you folding your 23o when he shoves, you are effectivly lying about an agreement for profit.

that's a pretty good analogy baal. one thing i've noticed makes the analogy feel much more different than it is. And that is that among poker players it's accepted that people will always flip. There are not many people who back out of a flip and they would feel like a scumbag- or at least an outcast because no one agrees with their morality. in the tv show people are almost expected to backstab each other. i guess what i'm saying is that people will follow morality if it seems ok to the majority of other people, when in fact it is not.

Fuck off, so you have no problem with beating someone at the table out of their kids college money where unknown to them you have an insane edge over them but picking the higher EV choice at a fucking game show is morally repulsive?
The only play is to pick steal, if they chose to split you can give them their half after the show.

ty Baal and Ket, I was starting to think my opinion had to be wrong because it was shared by Floofy and capaneo, now I feel better

On April 25 2012 01:44 Spitfiree wrote: player I meant the 15lies @ 5mins is probably accurate

his correction was 40 lies/15min, but any of those are not accurate at all

if you agree with them, its because you're thinking "yeah maybe I do lie that much sometimes to strangers" but "maybe sometimes" isnt enough to make it the average, by making it the average you mean that sometimes you lie 80/100 times in 15 minutes, to make up for the times you dont, and even if you fit this ridic amount, the average person doesnt, remember that some people barely lie (or barely talk at all) for the first minutes with strangers, so there would have to be a lot of ppl saying 1 lie every 5 seconds for a whole 15min to make up for those ppl

I dont wanna discuss this anymore, its so absurd it makes me sick, wtf

On April 25 2012 03:04 EvilSky wrote: The only play is to pick steal, if they chose to split you can give them their half after the show.

choosing steal with the intention of giving half after is pretty irrational

if they pick split, you get 50% either way, if they pick steal, you get 0% by picking steal but can get 50% if you pick split and they have that same intention of giving half after

On April 24 2012 18:29 player999 wrote: sure, we lie a lot, we lie a lot to strangers on first few minutes but 40 fucking lies on AVERAGE, I mean, I can see someone lying 40 times in 15m but that is the worst case scenario, not the FUCKING AVERAGE

I easily lie for the full 15 minutes lol

even if you do, you still have to say 40 things that can be lies, so you have to talk A LOT, and do that to every single stranger you meet

and even if you do all that, now you have to think that everyone else does too

You guys just don't understand, when you start with your opening lie, the conversation is built on that lie, so that makes your next sentence, body language, pitch of voice lying all through the next few sentences, and it keeps building up.




LOL, at being "sick" and disapointed in here. So cool when people all subtle come in with the most massive of insults, making them personal to boot. NOW I AM DISAPPOINT.

Most people in here, who were saying it'z alright to steal, were having a dialogue, sharing their opinion, their belief on the matter.
Then you have all these shitfaces come in and throw personal insults and whatnot, like that'd somehow make their belief superior lol, that shit ain't cool.

*hrmpfhh*

Ps, shouldn't call ppl shitface, don't really mean it, just a little emotional xD

another point I just thought, a conversation is made of 2 people, so if the average person lies 40 times in 15min, the average conversation (made of 2 people) contains 80 lies in 15 minutes, or, if you divide the time spent talking equally, each lie 40 times in 7.5 minutes

at 4:20 minutes of the video you just fucking posted, the bitch says: "strangers lie THREE times within the first 10 minutes of meeting each other"

the video you just posted

fuck you, seriously

^ You're a bit douchebag lol, I already confirmed 2 pages ago that I got the numbers wrong. And it was to get a point across that we lie a lot lol.

Let me go back and quote it for the 2nd time, since you're going crazy with the insults lol.

If 2 test subjects are put to talk, they only lie around 3-5 times in 10 minutes, but when it's random, stranger you meet at the hospital, out, date, it's a lot more. There is also a TEDTalk on the subject, and books with references that explains it.


I guess you'll still keep miss-quoting me, taking things out of context and continue being a noob =p

+ The same talk says on average we get lied to 10 - 200 times a day, still a huge number. And in my world where lies are a good thing, it's probably 3 times as much as a normal person, maybe. So either way, none of it deserves being flamed by a "grouchy retard" (this is just my subjective opinion, and not truth, since I get emotional when people go out of their way to be mean to me). So gogo, appologize, and I'll appologize for calling you a noob, and we can continue trying to have dialogue's instead of people wanting to feel they've "won" an argument.

On April 25 2012 04:11 player999 wrote: even if you do, you still have to say 40 things that can be lies, so you have to talk A LOT, and do that to every single stranger you meet and even if you do all that, now you have to think that everyone else does too

Already confirmed I got the numbers wrong 2 pages ago, ur being a dick here