[NL400] TT river play

TheB1g0ne is a - bad - regular, not very happy folding 3bet and can float with a lot of cards. He is generally very aggro pre and postflop.
I have around 1000 hands of him, generally playing 18/16/3, 26% betting frequency on the river.
I think he might see me on the loose side, squeezing a bit too often, and trying to take down the pot on the turn.
I'd like your comments on hero river play and what you prefer for the turn play.
If this is a standard/usual spot, do not hesitate to kill the thread

Submitted by : Patrocle

***** Hand History for Game 4774290826 ***** Everest
$400.00 USD NL Texas Holdem - Saturday, June 27, 04:10:02 ET 2009
Table Bamako5 Real Money
Seat 6 is the button
Seat 1: Hero $478.40 USD
Seat 2: tyesbeau $358.00 USD
Seat 3: TheB1g0ne $400.00 USD
Seat 4: dreamer_ $86.00 USD
Seat 5: BigDaddyCash $578.60 USD
Seat 6: dachfed $726.99 USD
Hero posts small blind [$2.00 USD].
tyesbeau posts big blind [$4.00 USD].

Holecards
Dealt to Hero [ ]
** Dealing down cards **
TheB1g0ne raises [$14.00 USD]
dreamer_ folds
BigDaddyCash calls [$14.00 USD]
dachfed folds
Hero raises [$58.00 USD]
tyesbeau folds
TheB1g0ne calls [$46.00 USD]
BigDaddyCash folds

Flop (Pot : $136.00)

   
Hero bets [$65.00 USD]
TheB1g0ne calls [$65.00 USD]

Turn (Pot : $266.00)

   
Hero bets [$175.00 USD]
TheB1g0ne calls [$175.00 USD]

River (Pot : $616.00)

   
Hero

I guess I shove like a retard and get called by 99 or like A7 some of the time, kick myself some of the time when he's slowplaying (not superlikely) and mostly he'll just fold something stupid. I think it's slighly better then c/c or c/f since we don't know wtf he's up too and you've just got so little behind that you'll get called a lot.

On June 27 2009 12:03 DustySwedeDude wrote: I guess I shove like a retard and get called by 99 or like A7 some of the time, kick myself some of the time when he's slowplaying (not superlikely) and mostly he'll just fold something stupid. I think it's slighly better then c/c or c/f since we don't know wtf he's up too and you've just got so little behind that you'll get called a lot.

I didn't write it on the thread, but I thought he could bluff a lot of miss draw, and then, C/C was better than shoving first.
But I'm interested in all point of views.

I think shove is better than c/c, I mean there arent that many flush draws and besides he can think he has showdown value with the nfd here and all straight draws got there and at the same time Im never c/f so just jam it in.

seems like if you check he will only bet with hands that beat u or 99 Do you really think he is going to try and bluff 1/3 pot on the river in a 3bet pot?

i think its an interesting spot (by what opponent can have here)

i really don't think he has many draws in his range as i would expect him to try and get most of those in already?

i'd say his range on river is something like

8x,99,A7,78,76,75,77,66,55,44... maybe JJ+ but i highly doubt it

i'm def not happy stacking off here thats for sure as that range has us crushed

but with only ~$100 effective stacks left i don't see how we can ever fold.. so just shove and take a note

I think some 3B pot history and his 3B pot tendencies would be helpful. Without this info, we know nothing and cannot put him on a range. "bad reg" doesn't tell us how he plays in these situations.

wait a minute I just noticed we have like a 100 bucks left on the river lol , this is terrible man size your betting better and jam the turn.

we have $100 left on the river

I didn't realize there was any play left

On June 27 2009 16:33 TalentedTom wrote: we have $100 left on the river I didn't realize there was any play left

I'm not considering folding, just want to know if we shove or C/C here.
I guess shoving is better

On June 27 2009 16:29 EvilSky wrote: wait a minute I just noticed we have like a 100 bucks left on the river lol , this is terrible man size your betting better and jam the turn.

So I bet stronger on flop, to be able to jam the turn ?
I didn't want to make a flush draw fold.

On June 27 2009 15:04 phexac wrote: I think some 3B pot history and his 3B pot tendencies would be helpful. Without this info, we know nothing and cannot put him on a range. "bad reg" doesn't tell us how he plays in these situations.

I mean he is "sticky" in general, the kind of guy that prefers not to be bluffed, rather to make money.

edit: didnt read that he's 3bet call happy

still think flatting is way better

On June 28 2009 06:31 TimDawg wrote: edit: didnt read that he's 3bet call happy still think flatting is way better

Ok, but why ?
Our holding is good but vulnerable and plays better HU than 3way, no ?
What's our plan on flop, 3 way out of position then ?

I can't believe that I just saw a situation where check/folding 100 into what would be 700 with an overpair is likely the best play. The only hand you really beat is a double float.

If TT was good here you'd know it.

Yeah, looking at the pot size I think you are likely beat here. He'd have to figure you aren't bluffing here since you are putting your entire stack in. Only thing you beat is 99 or some gay 7x. And he may not even call turn with those.

The key decisions have been made before the river though. You played your TT like you are playing it for value. Just shove now since nothing worse is going to bet.

your getting 6:1 on your river shove
you realize this isn't even close

Its an absolute silly situation to put yourself in. By rule you should never fold / not push here. Given that, you're beating absolutely nothing here. I bet if you poker stove realistic ranges you're still not getting 6:1. Your only hope is that the guy got some massive suckouts on other tables and is tilting.

Also, every single pair would push the remaining 100 left in on the turn. Even if not you're only beating 7X. The only hand I could see calling a turn is AXhh, float turned into draw.

I'm betting that guy has KK/AA/88/77 or 44. Most likely AA or KK.

There are three very distinct, prominent errors in this hand. Its hard to analyze something that has become so fubared. If I had to analogize I would say its similar to a guy asking "hey I just stabbed myself in the heart. What do I do now?" I don't know dude. Don't stab yourself in the heart in the first place:D

On June 28 2009 11:08 TalentedTom wrote: your getting 6:1 on your river shove you realize this isn't even close

On June 28 2009 11:08 TalentedTom wrote: your getting 6:1 on your river shove you realize this isn't even close

How to play the hand better then.
I'm not posting for bragging purpose, but to improve
I thought he could try bluffing more than calling my river shove, hence thread.
Let say we have one more pot bet. What are you considering then ?

On June 28 2009 12:38 Maynard! wrote: Its an absolute silly situation to put yourself in. By rule you should never fold / not push here. Given that, you're beating absolutely nothing here. I bet if you poker stove realistic ranges you're still not getting 6:1. Your only hope is that the guy got some massive suckouts on other tables and is tilting. Also, every single pair would push the remaining 100 left in on the turn. Even if not you're only beating 7X. The only hand I could see calling a turn is AXhh, float turned into draw. I'm betting that guy has KK/AA/88/77 or 44. Most likely AA or KK. There are three very distinct, prominent errors in this hand. Its hard to analyze something that has become so fubared. If I had to analogize I would say its similar to a guy asking "hey I just stabbed myself in the heart. What do I do now?" I don't know dude. Don't stab yourself in the heart in the first place:D

this statement is false, any villian that calls 75% of their stack before the river is preety retarded / horrible, and will show up with the most bizzaire ranges. Any player who isn't completley retarded would fold/shove their entire range on the turn. Therefore it's correct to assume villian is a retard and shoving is the upmost correct play by a crystal mile.

Also important to note villian will be getting 7:1 on the river, so he will call with 100% of his range, including all high card (possibly even low) hands

Your line kinda blows when you leave 100$ on the river.

"TheB1g0ne is a - bad - regular, not very happy folding"


why not just jam turn? seems like a player like this would have trouble folding any sorta pair in this spot so might as well try and rep a bluff too.

On June 28 2009 19:38 Twisted wrote: Your line kinda blows when you leave 100$ on the river.

ok so shove turn ? bet stronger on flop ? re-gay bet the turn ?
What's the best line vs a sticky-tag ?

On June 28 2009 18:47 TalentedTom wrote: Show nested quote + On June 28 2009 12:38 Maynard! wrote: Its an absolute silly situation to put yourself in. By rule you should never fold / not push here. Given that, you're beating absolutely nothing here. I bet if you poker stove realistic ranges you're still not getting 6:1. Your only hope is that the guy got some massive suckouts on other tables and is tilting. Also, every single pair would push the remaining 100 left in on the turn. Even if not you're only beating 7X. The only hand I could see calling a turn is AXhh, float turned into draw. I'm betting that guy has KK/AA/88/77 or 44. Most likely AA or KK. There are three very distinct, prominent errors in this hand. Its hard to analyze something that has become so fubared. If I had to analogize I would say its similar to a guy asking "hey I just stabbed myself in the heart. What do I do now?" I don't know dude. Don't stab yourself in the heart in the first place:D this statement is false, any villian that calls 75% of their stack before the river is preety retarded / horrible, and will show up with the most bizzaire ranges. Any player who isn't completley retarded would fold/shove their entire range on the turn. Therefore it's correct to assume villian is a retard and shoving is the upmost correct play by a crystal mile. Also important to note villian will be getting 7:1 on the river, so he will call with 100% of his range, including all high card (possibly even low) hands

Ok, so we lose a lot of value by C/C instead of Shoving.
Now I got an answer

Here is the result of this one -forgot-

Submitted by : Patrocle

***** Hand History for Game 4774290826 ***** Everest
$400.00 USD NL Texas Holdem - Saturday, June 27, 04:10:02 ET 2009
Table Bamako5 Real Money
Seat 6 is the button
Seat 1: Hero $478.40 USD
Seat 2: tyesbeau $358.00 USD
Seat 3: TheB1g0ne $400.00 USD
Seat 4: dreamer_ $86.00 USD
Seat 5: BigDaddyCash $578.60 USD
Seat 6: dachfed $726.99 USD
Hero posts small blind [$2.00 USD].
tyesbeau posts big blind [$4.00 USD].

Holecards
Dealt to Hero [ ]
** Dealing down cards **
TheB1g0ne raises [$14.00 USD]
dreamer_ folds
BigDaddyCash calls [$14.00 USD]
dachfed folds
Hero raises [$58.00 USD]
tyesbeau folds
TheB1g0ne calls [$46.00 USD]
BigDaddyCash folds

Flop (Pot : $136.00)

   
Hero bets [$65.00 USD]
TheB1g0ne calls [$65.00 USD]

Turn (Pot : $266.00)

   
Hero bets [$175.00 USD]
TheB1g0ne calls [$175.00 USD]

River (Pot : $616.00)

   
Hero checks
TheB1g0ne checks
Hero shows , ]
TheB1g0ne shows , ]
Hero wins $615.00 USD from main pot