why do people shortstack?

I don't get it, it seems like every table on stars has at LEAST 1 or 2 shortstacking, and sometimes everybody is. But all these guys ever do is fold, fold, fold and then randomly shove Ax PF (and suckout grrr). Does anyone make any money doing this? Are they somehow aware of how bad they are, but just playing for fun so they want to minimize their losses? Or they just decided at some point that they hate post flop play and want to avoid it entirely? It really makes no sense to me.

they make a very marginal winning in profit, possibly even breakeven, but they get their money from bonuses.

because in theory it's slightly +ev, but in reality rake owns the EV there is in shortstacking.
so reason is fpp/rakeback imo

Some people shortstack successfully at higher limits. At lower limits a lot of the people who do this don't really understand stack sizes, and their exposure to poker is largely through televised tournaments. They see an Ace in their hand and know that's good against a random distribution and shove. You can often tell professional shortstackers from clueless fish by their buy-in size. Pro's usually buy-in for exactly 20bb, fish buy in for random amounts. In my experience people who buy in for weird amounts like 37.5bb are extremely profitable to play against on all streets, including preflop.

bullshit good shortstackers are making BANK

you guys ever played with the kids who successfully shortstack 5/10? fucking sick life they are good at what they do

On November 16 2008 16:43 [vital]Myth wrote: bullshit good shortstackers are making BANK you guys ever played with the kids who successfully shortstack 5/10? fucking sick life they are good at what they do

That makes sense at least considering they can actually beat the rake. At low limits I'd assume that's a lot more difficult to do.

yeah i'm just talking about lower limits here. What makes it so good on higher limits, then? do people just underestimate them?

people are just dumb and somehow still haven't figured out how to play well vs 20bb stacks

OR

people have to just raise a lot of hands and if the shorty shoves, then fuck it they just fold, but they still have to raise a lot of hands against everyone else at the table

it's time for the green stars to explain to the community how to play perfectly vs the shortstackers imo.
It's not like they are going to hurt themselves by explaining how to beat something they will never do amirite?

gogogo

because if u were good at it u could make a lot of money without thinking, now 50bb tables are common in higher stakes, and at lower stakes the rate is huge

On November 16 2008 17:01 lebowski wrote: it's time for the green stars to explain to the community how to play perfectly vs the shortstackers imo. It's not like they are going to hurt themselves by explaining how to beat something they will never do amirite? gogogo

I agree, i am curious as well!

back in the days on ipoker when I was playing fullring, and Naranjito + myself was among the top regulars, there was one shortstacker that had a very sick bb/100, even thou he was so tight that you could profitable fold AK vs his early position raise. People, even some of the good regulars, stacked off vs him with hands that wasnt even close to beat his range and didnt have close to good odds to make the call. + He played max amount of tables (16) 2-4 to 5-10 and like 12 hours per day. But I guess people have begun to figure out how to play shortstackers at least a little bit more than 1 year ago.

I'm shortstacking on PlayersOnly to clear the bonus on there right now actually.

24 tables of 20bb poker is so easy to beat the rake when people call your shoves with like ATo and QJo and shit just because they are getting 1.5:1 or whatever. You have to be REALLLLLLLY nitty, but people still pay you off for some reason if they are the PFR. For some reason they don't like calling openings from the SS, though, so there is still FE in LP and I get away with stealing SO many hands in the CO and BU. That just keeps me ahead of the blinds and the rest of the EV is profit, pretty much. I could probably play more +EV but this more than does the trick for my purposes.

Most common leak people have against shortstackers is that they don't give the shortstacker enough respect.

They're like ok so I raised T9s 3bb and this shorty motherfucker 20bb shoves over. Ah fuck it gamboool. But in the end they lose a lot of money to the shortstackers. The trick is that you need to know which range they shove with and call if your hand beats their range. It's that simple. DOn't get it in light against them. Something like AJ+ 88+ should be fine.

Also, if there's a lot of shortstacks on the table and for some reason you don't want to leave, start raising to 2,5bb or something preflop (especially if they're in the blinds). Most shortstacks play like 12/12 so all they do is play 12% of their hands and it doesn't matter what amount you raise preflop. They'll either fold or shove preflop anyway. Just make it 2,5 times and they'll fold as many times as when you raise 3bb.

i def think we should all educate everyone on playing against shortstacks out of spite and since it doesn't hurt us. because seriously i hate them and it just hurts my winrate so lets hurt theirs right back =|

i g2g do some shit atm but ill checkup later on this thread and see if theres anything i can add to it.

beating a "good" shortstackers is the easist shit ever, just to to Stove, figure out what their normal PFR ranges are, and call only with hands that do good against his range considering the original raise ammoung, easy -.-

So basically all u need is 30mins playing on Pokerstove and a few calculations and thats it.

Having short stackers at your table is kinda nice sometimes. If you have a few to your left and some easy player to your right. You're going to be at a table with almost zero hard decisions. Just gotta know their range and beat it. Fairly simple.

On November 16 2008 19:38 Baal wrote: beating a "good" shortstackers is the easist shit ever, just to to Stove, figure out what their normal PFR ranges are, and call only with hands that do good against his range considering the original raise ammoung, easy -.- So basically all u need is 30mins playing on Pokerstove and a few calculations and thats it.

No, beating a good shortstacker in a 6-max game with several fullstacked players is actually pretty difficult.
A good shortstacker follows whats going on at the table and is adapting their range.

They make money in the higher stakes games because most people who play fullstacked arent able to always adjust their preflop raising range when there is a shorstack still in. Players often raise a range that is good for deep game but exploitable in a 20bb game eventhough they know the proper adjustment, they just often forget about the shortstacker being in the game or they simply want to play their nice 87s type of hand vs a deepstacked weaker opponent in the big blind and simply hope the shortstacker in the small blind wont have a hand this time or whatever. However, the good shortstacker is often able to figure such things out and capitalize on it even if he doesnt have a strong hand.

plus if u are only focused on beating the shorties (or at least losing the least), then u will be making less money off the other guys at the table

also taking in mind that even if u get it in a slightly EV- spot, the fact that if you loose he will leave and open a spot for a full stacker negates the slight loss.

On November 16 2008 20:35 Baal wrote: also taking in mind that even if u get it in a slightly EV- spot, the fact that if you loose he will leave and open a spot for a full stacker negates the slight loss.

the serious beat is when the shortstacker who just doubled up leaves and another one sits at his seat T_T

vs tight shortstacker = give respect and let go KQo / AJo vs early position raise
- Min raise their big blind every time when folded to, to small blind.

Vs good shortstack = show them one crazy reraise with 27o / T3 then tighten up next 100.000 hands, then do same over again.

LOLOL 100 000 hands hahaha
degen gambling is how to defeat shortstacks. it must suck for them having to sit out while you are spewing chips with 27o just to follow their SUPER SYSTEM 3

one degen gambling shot for 50bb-s equals roughly 2 months time of playing your A+ game vs shortstackers
proceed at your own risk ! gl

Because they're bad at postflop play and they know you'll just give them a huge preflop edge by playing too loose against them.

Waht do you think ? Is it possible to shortstack 6max for good amount of bb/100 ?!

meh most shorties barely pull 1ptbb however, the real good ones 24 table or more, so they actually have pretty damn good hourly s all things considered

let me add on that, they usually play like 25/50 down to like 2/4 since it jsut doesn't run enough and once they double up they can't play the same table for another 30 mins atleast

Why is shortstacking better to clear bonuses?

I think because your bonus is based on the MGR of the table, you don't actually have to be involved in hands. So he can have like 24tables of MGR coming in and breaking even while shortstacking instead of having to play 4x as long 6tabling fullstack

On November 16 2008 23:37 DarkFury wrote: Waht do you think ? Is it possible to shortstack 6max for good amount of bb/100 ?!

fuck you no.

lol cariadon =)

On November 16 2008 23:37 DarkFury wrote: Waht do you think ? Is it possible to shortstack 6max for good amount of bb/100 ?!

Search 2+2 for Imsakid's graph.

On November 17 2008 06:45 Joe wrote: Show nested quote + On November 16 2008 23:37 DarkFury wrote: Waht do you think ? Is it possible to shortstack 6max for good amount of bb/100 ?! Search 2+2 for Imsakid's graph.

can u remember the title of the thread?

Because they don't have enough money to play 10 tables 100bb ? (true story... :[)

Heres an excellent article on how to beat good shortstackers:

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=12157664

Gives a lot of insight if you have problems with these faggots.

Shortstacking is profitable for the same reason squeezing is profitable.

Because its easy and pretty low variance, you dont need hand reading or postflop skills, just basic preflop stuff.
Shorstackers dont give me as much trouble as before now, I toned down my calling range vs their shoves and started reshoving on them with a good frequency with Axs and stuff like that and they actually fold quite a bit.

Because they don't have the brains nor the balls to play fullstacked.

Who do you push off a cliff first?

A. Blazingsmile
B. Nattylocks

On November 17 2008 00:47 Night2o1 wrote: I think because your bonus is based on the MGR of the table, you don't actually have to be involved in hands. So he can have like 24tables of MGR coming in and breaking even while shortstacking instead of having to play 4x as long 6tabling fullstack

Does this include stuff like FPP?
So if I really wanted like supernova super fast on a smaller bankroll I could 24 table short stack NL100 and be one of those annoying guys too?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/54/poker-beats-brags-variance/10k-day-273042/

playing vs shortstackers is easy, don't let them dictate the action, and do not gamble with them

get it in ahead, bust them

that simple

even if they do double up to ugh, 40x bb, its still so easy to take it back, and if they hit and run, the seat fills with a most likely fullstacked player where you are getting more ev from the table

shorties are jokers

i must add that shorties 5/10 and above are fairly strong and not to be picked on

On November 17 2008 01:09 Baal wrote: Show nested quote + On November 16 2008 23:37 DarkFury wrote: Waht do you think ? Is it possible to shortstack 6max for good amount of bb/100 ?! fuck you no.

haha blazing smile is better than nattylocks to me, so he gets pushed first... i dont mind natty at the tables...

Just look at the shortie's stats and adjust. If he is 3betting 20% from blinds, you know you can call him with a whole bunch of hands. If he folds 90% of his BBs, you can raise with anything you will raise against the other playing in the blinds. Very few shortstackers are good. Some are, but even then you just need to do some math and figure out what their range is and what you should be calling them with.

what tilts me is the nl200 idiot shortstacker who will limp low pocket pairs utg and call a huge iso to setmine with 70$. This guy plays a lot of tables too, asdfasdfasdfasdf

On November 17 2008 23:55 NeillyJQ wrote: playing vs shortstackers is easy, don't let them dictate the action, and do not gamble with them get it in ahead, bust them that simple

ROFL u retard

On November 17 2008 21:49 Sloverville wrote: Who do you push off a cliff first? A. Blazingsmile B. Nattylocks

As long as they both get pushed off along with dumbo2000 I don't care who goes first. I'll be adding pokerpoopy to the list as well actually.

Out of curiosity I checked my PT DB to see how these players go. I have 3.5k hands on Blazing and he is up ~$200, dumbo and Natty I have about 2.5k hands on and they are both down ~$200.

haha, i love how neilly presents himself as the big experienced high stakes poker player who tells us that shortstackers at 5/10 + are quite good.

On November 17 2008 21:49 Sloverville wrote: Who do you push off a cliff first? A. Blazingsmile B. Nattylocks

Dumbo2000 as well

Dumbo2000, 3.4k sample up $52,70
Nattyflocks 1k sample, down $49,70
Blazingsmile 1.4k sample, up $130,80

On November 18 2008 08:37 Royal_Rumble wrote: haha, i love how neilly presents himself as the big experienced high stakes poker player who tells us that shortstackers at 5/10 + are quite good.

i've busted many a roll playing vs shortstackers at 5/10 and 10/20, a forum is for giving advice, correct?

On November 18 2008 09:46 NeillyJQ wrote: Show nested quote + On November 18 2008 08:37 Royal_Rumble wrote: haha, i love how neilly presents himself as the big experienced high stakes poker player who tells us that shortstackers at 5/10 + are quite good. i've busted many a roll playing vs shortstackers at 5/10 and 10/20, a forum is for giving advice, correct?

you are not qualified to give advice

On November 17 2008 23:55 NeillyJQ wrote: playing vs shortstackers is easy, don't let them dictate the action, and do not gamble with them get it in ahead, bust them that simple

can you elaborate on the "dictate the action" thing.

lets say you raise EP 3,5bb and they shove 20bb. How are you gonna dictate that action?

How has this thread reached 3 pages? Shortstacking is nothing new, why is this such a controversy across the poker net? Maybe it's from grinding SNG's in the early days, but anyone should be comfortable playing against short stacks. An entire thread on short stack theory at 2p2, UNNECESSARY. If you are ever shoving all your money in no matter how much you have left, you are doing it for one purpose and one purpose only. To get called. Learn the short stackers range, and some do it with 66+, some QQ+, and others (idiots) any Ax. Whatever the case they expect to be ahead of your calling range, thats it. So dont fuckin call if you have T9s, or AJo. If you have to play vs one, sit to his RIGHT, to avoid him fucking up every pot you want to engage in. Dont bother stealing blinds, and depending on what he shoves with, just call with that much higher.

I dunno I've never had a problem playing against short stackers. I've even tried it at 10 tables low limit just to see if I could be profitable but its more +EV to just play full, rather than table hopping constantly looking for a game. If there are 3+ short stackers at your table then theres no point in even playing unless you also intend to shortstack.

On November 18 2008 10:18 Baal wrote: Show nested quote + On November 18 2008 09:46 NeillyJQ wrote:   On November 18 2008 08:37 Royal_Rumble wrote: haha, i love how neilly presents himself as the big experienced high stakes poker player who tells us that shortstackers at 5/10 + are quite good. i've busted many a roll playing vs shortstackers at 5/10 and 10/20, a forum is for giving advice, correct? you are not qualified to give advice

k no more advice then!

On November 18 2008 10:18 Baal wrote: Show nested quote + On November 18 2008 09:46 NeillyJQ wrote:   On November 18 2008 08:37 Royal_Rumble wrote: haha, i love how neilly presents himself as the big experienced high stakes poker player who tells us that shortstackers at 5/10 + are quite good. i've busted many a roll playing vs shortstackers at 5/10 and 10/20, a forum is for giving advice, correct? you are not qualified to give advice

Are you? :D Neilly play higher stake than you O_O!

On November 18 2008 11:48 hawking wrote: If you are ever shoving all your money in no matter how much you have left, you are doing it for one purpose and one purpose only. To get called

...no, you are very often shoving to get people to fold. if you play MTTs you are more familiar with this concept (3bet bluffing allin with 15-20 BBs) than anything else.

and most retarded breakeven shortstacks at $1/2 happen to be dumb nits who only shove good hands and are somehow convinced that it's smart, but the HUGE majority of winning shortstackers are shoving to make you fold FAR more often than for any other reason. they are shoving A4, KJ, T9s, etc. they know that when you open for 3.5 BB you can have a huge range of hands and you can't call very often, so they shove anything with marginally good equity against your calling range, to capitalize on the huge amount of fold equity they have

shortstackers are not shoving to get called. some shortstackers happen to be dumb and nits, but your perception of shortstacking in a general sense is way way way off

On November 17 2008 23:19 C0n5pir4cy wrote: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/54/poker-beats-brags-variance/10k-day-273042/

Knowing that that is NL5000 make the $10k figure a lot less impressive.

leave and open up a 50bb table

On November 18 2008 12:55 [vital]Myth wrote: Show nested quote + On November 18 2008 11:48 hawking wrote: If you are ever shoving all your money in no matter how much you have left, you are doing it for one purpose and one purpose only. To get called ...no, you are very often shoving to get people to fold. if you play MTTs you are more familiar with this concept (3bet bluffing allin with 15-20 BBs) than anything else. and most retarded breakeven shortstacks at $1/2 happen to be dumb nits who only shove good hands and are somehow convinced that it's smart, but the HUGE majority of winning shortstackers are shoving to make you fold FAR more often than for any other reason. they are shoving A4, KJ, T9s, etc. they know that when you open for 3.5 BB you can have a huge range of hands and you can't call very often, so they shove anything with marginally good equity against your calling range, to capitalize on the huge amount of fold equity they have shortstackers are not shoving to get called. some shortstackers happen to be dumb and nits, but your perception of shortstacking in a general sense is way way way off

Well in tourneys yes I realize shoving is for FE. But I never looked at shortstacking cash games as FE. But you say "they shove anything with marginally good equity against your calling range" this would seem to me to suggest they often expect to be called, and that they must know hands like T9s are not good against your calling range, hence the desire to be a nitty shortstacker and shove whatever they think can actually beat your calling range, rather than fold you out. Not arguing with you however, just never looked at it like that. I mean every time I see a shortstacked they frequently get action and KJ and A4 just seem to be a huge spew.

On November 18 2008 22:28 hawking wrote: Show nested quote + On November 18 2008 12:55 [vital]Myth wrote:   On November 18 2008 11:48 hawking wrote: If you are ever shoving all your money in no matter how much you have left, you are doing it for one purpose and one purpose only. To get called ...no, you are very often shoving to get people to fold. if you play MTTs you are more familiar with this concept (3bet bluffing allin with 15-20 BBs) than anything else. and most retarded breakeven shortstacks at $1/2 happen to be dumb nits who only shove good hands and are somehow convinced that it's smart, but the HUGE majority of winning shortstackers are shoving to make you fold FAR more often than for any other reason. they are shoving A4, KJ, T9s, etc. they know that when you open for 3.5 BB you can have a huge range of hands and you can't call very often, so they shove anything with marginally good equity against your calling range, to capitalize on the huge amount of fold equity they have shortstackers are not shoving to get called. some shortstackers happen to be dumb and nits, but your perception of shortstacking in a general sense is way way way off Well in tourneys yes I realize shoving is for FE. But I never looked at shortstacking cash games as FE. But you say "they shove anything with marginally good equity against your calling range" this would seem to me to suggest they often expect to be called, and that they must know hands like T9s are not good against your calling range, hence the desire to be a nitty shortstacker and shove whatever they think can actually beat your calling range, rather than fold you out. Not arguing with you however, just never looked at it like that. I mean every time I see a shortstacked they frequently get action and KJ and A4 just seem to be a huge spew.

"good" shortstackers like sodom adjust their range to include shit like A8+, 55+, and will shove that shit every time they sense u opened wide. thats why minraising or 3xing into shorties discourages them since they have to risk more to win less

On November 18 2008 12:55 [vital]Myth wrote: Show nested quote + On November 18 2008 11:48 hawking wrote: If you are ever shoving all your money in no matter how much you have left, you are doing it for one purpose and one purpose only. To get called ...no, you are very often shoving to get people to fold. if you play MTTs you are more familiar with this concept (3bet bluffing allin with 15-20 BBs) than anything else. and most retarded breakeven shortstacks at $1/2 happen to be dumb nits who only shove good hands and are somehow convinced that it's smart, but the HUGE majority of winning shortstackers are shoving to make you fold FAR more often than for any other reason. they are shoving A4, KJ, T9s, etc. they know that when you open for 3.5 BB you can have a huge range of hands and you can't call very often, so they shove anything with marginally good equity against your calling range, to capitalize on the huge amount of fold equity they have shortstackers are not shoving to get called. some shortstackers happen to be dumb and nits, but your perception of shortstacking in a general sense is way way way off

agrreed ive shortstacked befor and it was more profitable to make people fold then to do flips

thats 10 ss buyins though!


-Hawking; not really sure that much of what you wrote there is correct

shorties make bread off resteals

fascinating, never looked at it like that. Most likely b/c of my personal raising range does not include flipping against shorties (I am a nit afterall), and they seem to dwell at higher stakes. I always assumed they were playing 3/6 and up just to big skilless donks who can exploit big money players who dont give a fuck.

Guess the ss at higher levels are better, at 100nl they suck so bad. Annoying, but kind of easy to play them, just a mathematical problem. I was wondering how dumbo2000 make a profit or the dude with the little mermaid avatar, guess fpp.

Full Tilt Poker Game #9067762216: Table Kennedy (6 max) - $50/$100 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:58:55 ET - 2008/11/19
Seat 1: jman5j23 ($4,300)
Seat 2: Legend ($1,794)
Seat 3: luvtheWNBA ($10,597)
Seat 4: whatariver1 ($12,096)
Seat 5: pr1nnyraid ($13,295)
Seat 6: SamH133 ($12,147)
Legend posts the small blind of $50
luvtheWNBA posts the big blind of $100
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
whatariver1 raises to $300
pr1nnyraid raises to $1,050
SamH133 folds
jman5j23 folds
Legend raises to $1,794, and is all in
luvtheWNBA folds
whatariver1 folds
pr1nnyraid calls $744
Legend shows [As Ac]
pr1nnyraid shows [Td 7d]
*** FLOP *** [3d 3c Qc]
*** TURN *** [3d 3c Qc]
*** RIVER *** [3d 3c Qc Kc]
Legend shows a flush, Ace high
pr1nnyraid shows two pair, Sevens and Threes
Legend wins the pot ($3,985) with a flush, Ace high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3,988 | Rake $3
Board: [3d 3c Qc Kc 7c]
Seat 1: jman5j23 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Legend (small blind) showed [As Ac] and won ($3,985) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 3: luvtheWNBA (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: whatariver1 folded before the Flop
Seat 5: pr1nnyraid showed [Td 7d] and lost with two pair, Sevens and Threes
Seat 6: SamH133 didn't bet (folded)

This is also a situation where a shortstacker would make 750$ more than what a fullstack's 4bet would make.

Shortstacking may acctually be good in aggressive games imo.

Knowing that he did that within 4 hours of playing is a lot more impressive. (And with the minimal risk)