omaha hand, need advice

Submitted by : n0rthf4ce

PokerStars Game #9160826276: Omaha Pot Limit ($10/$20) - 2007/03/30 - 06:45:02 (ET)
Table 'Echemmon V' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 2: sassoneyal ($2013 in chips)
Seat 3: p3achy_keen ($2532 in chips)
Seat 4: Kalimero2000 ($642.50 in chips)
Seat 5: MATIS ($1327 in chips)
Seat 6: B Buddy ($2370 in chips)
Kalimero2000: posts small blind $10
MATIS: posts big blind $20

Holecards
Dealt to p3achy_keen ]
B Buddy: folds
sassoneyal: raises $50 to $70
p3achy_keen: raises $170 to $240
Kalimero2000: folds
MATIS: folds
sassoneyal: calls $170

Flop (Pot : $510)

   
sassoneyal: bets $508
p3achy_keen: calls $508

Turn (Pot : $1526)

   
sassoneyal: bets $1265 and is all-in
p3achy_keen: folds
sassoneyal collected $1524 from pot

Summary
Total pot $1526 | Rake $2
Board  
Seat 2: sassoneyal collected ($1524)
Seat 3: p3achy_keen (button) folded on the Turn
Seat 4: Kalimero2000 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: MATIS (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: B Buddy folded before Flop (didn't bet)

my humble omaha experience says call, it's unlikely he has trips here =[

if you only re-raise AAxx hands you are fucked b/c i think this is either air/fd bluffing you off of AAxx or a 9. i think the wider your 3betting range is the more it's a 9. if you 3bet a good amount of hands i think this can be a flop fold. you don't even have as much as a backdoor flush draw.

On March 30 2007 04:27 Tycho wrote: my humble omaha experience says call, it's unlikely he has trips here =[

this is very very untrue. dude is calling here w/ any sort of connected 4 most likely. a 9 is in the majority of those hands.

yeah tahts true rikd but is it common to frontbet a monster in a reraised pot? I mean north is cbetting for sure.. seems retarded for the villain to frontbet

On March 30 2007 04:31 RiKD wrote: Show nested quote + On March 30 2007 04:27 Tycho wrote: my humble omaha experience says call, it's unlikely he has trips here =[ this is very very untrue. dude is calling here w/ any sort of connected 4 most likely. a 9 is in the majority of those hands.

would 4567 or something go so crazy on flop? 9TJQ -ish hand is possible, bleh should have some sort of read of the player, if he's overagressive or plays alot of hands etc just saying that in my experience omaha is about using scare cards on the board in combination with ur regular strong hands. he knows you probably don't have a 4 or a 9 cuz you reraised big pf, putting you on KKxx, AAxx, AKQJ or something, so it could be a bluff as well.. hm i will shut up in the rest of the thread, cuz the stakes are out of my league, very interested in what other people will say

edit: re - reading my own comment i don't like what i say, raszi is probably right =/ if he's overagressive though, my above 'bluffing story' can apply..

omaha is so fucked..

no clue lol folding the flop seems so weak but maybe its correct, i have barley any omaha experience

On March 30 2007 07:46 MezmerizePLZ wrote: omaha is so fucked.. no clue lol folding the flop seems so weak but maybe its correct, i have barley any omaha experience

Dude let's play HU sometime, I don't either. 2/4 or 3/6 or something

On March 30 2007 05:02 RaSZi wrote: isnt this a fold on the flop?

i dunno is it? im trying to learn so any advice is good. folding flop just seems so weak, and as far as i know im only re-popping aces so he knows my exact range.

Reraise pre is fine, but make sure you do it with wide range
either fold flop or call all in turn. if you had club draw then turn is insta call, this is close but a call if you decided to call the flop. fold flop is 100% fine. flat call pre is 100% fine also.

rikd makes a great point. in PLO you absolutely 100% must be 3betting a ton of hands other than AAxx because it is verrrrrrrrry easy to exploit you if that's all you 3bet. much of the time, you should flatcall with AAxx preflop as well. the problem here is that your 3betting strategy isn't good because:

- although AAxx is favored over any other hand if you get all-in preflop, your 3bet doesn't even get NEARLY all-in preflop. so your opponent, knowing you have AAxx, has extremely good implied odds to call the 3bet and then play perfectly postflop, given your stack sizes. furthermore, he doesn't even need to hit, because he can easily bluff you off of your hand with a high success rate on boards like this.

- if YOU flatcall preflop here, and HE continuation bets the flop, well now you're in a fairly good spot to make a raise that isn't really a bluff all that often. i mean, only 44xx and 9xxx beat you on this flop. this flop is favorable for your AAxx a decent % of the time, so when you raise, it's pretty much for value (although the frequency of his 44xx and 9xxx isn't THAT low).

so, the message is: build pots preflop with a lot more hands than AAxx, such as good wraps and good double-suited hands, but especially wraps. postflop, try to play your 3bet wraps as if you have overplayed AA, when you hit favorable boards. also, build pots preflop with your best AAxx, like any AA that are double-suited, or any AA with two broadways. and if you were facing this raise with like AA73 rainbow, you should just outright fold preflop (i'm pretty sure), because you have pretty much nothing but set value.

I think I would call - I think 9x would CR the flop people seem to lead / pot commit themselves w/ draws very often. I think you may be looking at QQ-KK + flush draw

On March 30 2007 16:05 TalentedTom wrote: I think I would call - I think 9x would CR the flop people seem to lead / pot commit themselves w/ draws very often. I think you may be looking at QQ-KK + flush draw

it's possible, but a lot of people just bet bet bet any hand to protect it as well. for instance, he could be betting 6789 with no clubs to protect against club draws, as well as like 4-out higher boat draws such as the one northface actually has. many people are paranoid in plo and will always bet their hands oop to protect them.

On March 30 2007 11:55 [vital]Myth wrote: rikd makes a great point. in PLO you absolutely 100% must be 3betting a ton of hands other than AAxx because it is verrrrrrrrry easy to exploit you if that's all you 3bet. much of the time, you should flatcall with AAxx preflop as well. the problem here is that your 3betting strategy isn't good because: - although AAxx is favored over any other hand if you get all-in preflop, your 3bet doesn't even get NEARLY all-in preflop. so your opponent, knowing you have AAxx, has extremely good implied odds to call the 3bet and then play perfectly postflop, given your stack sizes. furthermore, he doesn't even need to hit, because he can easily bluff you off of your hand with a high success rate on boards like this. - if YOU flatcall preflop here, and HE continuation bets the flop, well now you're in a fairly good spot to make a raise that isn't really a bluff all that often. i mean, only 44xx and 9xxx beat you on this flop. this flop is favorable for your AAxx a decent % of the time, so when you raise, it's pretty much for value (although the frequency of his 44xx and 9xxx isn't THAT low). so, the message is: build pots preflop with a lot more hands than AAxx, such as good wraps and good double-suited hands, but especially wraps. postflop, try to play your 3bet wraps as if you have overplayed AA, when you hit favorable boards. also, build pots preflop with your best AAxx, like any AA that are double-suited, or any AA with two broadways. and if you were facing this raise with like AA73 rainbow, you should just outright fold preflop (i'm pretty sure), because you have pretty much nothing but set value.

wow this was helpful thx

I agree with [vital]myth, villain is definitely betting out with a 9. He is making it completely clear and obvious that he can be beaten with any club, and wants to not give you the correct pot odds to call. Calling on this flop is just a plain bad play, the only thing you can beat is a bluff (assuming you've been watching the player closely), but even then you would have to call his all in to find out, if he is determined to win pot. It's a relatively straight forward strong play on villain's part, because if you call he knows exactly what you have that could potentially beat him, and makes it that more logical to go all in on the turn when he knows he has you at that point in time (assuming there's no danger card on turn for villain). No way he has a full house 94 in his hand, because he would just milk you after fully knowing you are representing pre flop strength.

Calling even if you did have 2 clubs in your hand is a bad play as well since the board is already paired. Even if you had AcJc and called and hit a flush on the turn you would never know if that card would fill the villain up or not. It's never uncommon to see flush over flush, set over set, house over house. house over nut flush. Omaha is crazy, and it's fun, and personally my specialty, because through experience you can determine what the nuts is compared to what's on the board, and how it relates to your hand ultimately letting you know where you stand against other players. Art game yo

[vital]myth's advice on just flat calling with aces preflop is excellent advice, because with AAJJ or any pair or double pocket pair you are LOOKING to hit a set(I guarantee if flop was 99A or 99J, you would have been paid off by any shortstack with 9). AJ straight potential is poor, because you can only make the Ten to Ace straight with it. I understand your reasoning to reraise pre, perfectly fine, you are suited in diamonds for the nut diamond flush in a 5 handed game on the button (villain def. 9 dude trust the force yo) only idiot would bet into person in position who raised pot pre with no 9. Villain doesn't know whether you have a 9 either and have him outkicked so psb for him is feeler bet in omaha. If i were in the hand I would bet pot like villain too to find out where I'm at, and if you called it's letting me know that you are trying to draw out or have a weaker 9 that you can be pushed off of. In deeper stack play though it gets trickier because smooth calls can also mean you're getting slow played. 2 pair is weak in omaha, dump that shit

Also Daut's advice to fold post flop is good advice because it gives you less variance over the accumulation of wasted calls trying to pick off people who are trying to make moves. It's an attribute that you tend to keep from transitioning from NLHE to Omaha, trying to own the bluffers.

Anyway I think thats enough typing, hope you take it into consideration even though its like my first post =D Don't want to put everything out there. Gotta be more like Daut , posting short lets him keep alot of his closest strategies and thought processing methods in hands to himself =D

Ralf

flop call is retarded

i think flop call is fine if you predice you call turn shove

pretty easy situation. if u think hes bluffing, u call flop call turn

otherwise, u fold flop

1 pair sucks in Omaha - I would fold flop and pick a better spot - one with draws + set, or something with alot more room for improvement than 1 pair mining an ace or jack on turn or river

*don't fall in love with overpairs in Omaha*
you'll go broke

What I do in Omaha is look at the flop and quickly think, "What do I wish I had this hand?" and go from there.
Might sound corny, but it works.
For instance, this hand villain most likely has pocket 4s (4 of a kinds happen so much more in Omaha) or 9 with a flush draw. 99 is a possibility, but not the way he is betting

who do i listen to, naz or pu :/

On March 30 2007 19:54 DragonzPlay wrote: 1 pair sucks in Omaha - I would fold flop and pick a better spot - one with draws + set, or something with alot more room for improvement than 1 pair mining an ace or jack on turn or river *don't fall in love with overpairs in Omaha* you'll go broke What I do in Omaha is look at the flop and quickly think, "What do I wish I had this hand?" and go from there. Might sound corny, but it works. For instance, this hand villain most likely has pocket 4s (4 of a kinds happen so much more in Omaha) or 9 with a flush draw. 99 is a possibility, but not the way he is betting

I don't agree with this.

high stakes, shorthanded, is a very different game.

and I totally believe you because you would know and I wouldn't, since I've no first handed experience playing the high stakes

so in saying that, yea, even though I am hella curious as to how two overpairs, no draws is worth a buyin in high stakes shorthanded Omaha without a read, it's best I keep my trap shut till I get up there and keep on lurking this section (done)

On March 31 2007 23:01 DragonzPlay wrote: and I totally believe you because you would know and I wouldn't, since I've no first handed experience playing the high stakes so in saying that, yea, even though I am hella curious as to how two overpairs, no draws is worth a buyin in high stakes shorthanded Omaha without a read, it's best I keep my trap shut till I get up there and keep on lurking this section (done)

The fact that it is hard to call without a 9 here is exactly why many players are going to bluff with pot sized bets that they have the 9. In fact, it can be helpful to do so simply so that you can get paid when you do have the 9.

also - i am not necessarily advocating a call here.

On March 31 2007 23:01 DragonzPlay wrote: and I totally believe you because you would know and I wouldn't, since I've no first handed experience playing the high stakes so in saying that, yea, even though I am hella curious as to how two overpairs, no draws is worth a buyin in high stakes shorthanded Omaha without a read, it's best I keep my trap shut till I get up there and keep on lurking this section (done)

don't get your panties in a wad, jesus christ. he kindly stated that he doesn't agree and didn't even flame you in the slightest bit and you fucking HULK OUT about it...relax.

huh?

I thought my wording might of been totally crap. (in that first sentence especially)

I didn't get offended even in the slightest Myth - seriously
and I wasn't jabbing back or nothing - seems my wording or sentence structure makes me sound like a pompous ass here. I hate coming off that way. I apologize. It's usually someone else's panties that get in a wad - and on the floor

Everything that I said in that post I meant as 100%
Why was I posting in the high stakes section, when I've never played it? Nowhere near it?
The only reason I did, was because I have been playing Omaha recently as well, and have been thinking about posting hands, or some thoughts about it, and then I see someone beat me to it.

But the fact that I'm playing 10 dollar buyin tables, or 25 dollar buyin tables when I play Omaha, I do believe it could be a completely different outlook, and/or way of things
so this isn't really my section to post in - yet