Well, it's good that there has been improvements. I still don't think you need AA, what you need are relationships and a community like everyone else. AA is just the path of least resistance towards that at this point in time. Same with liquid poker. The only reason I am here is because of that. It's not LP itself that's valuable and which motivates my activity, it's the absence of something else.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Ok. LP may not be valuable in the sense that it has much effect on my motivation but it can order my thoughts a little bit in a way that certain things become more clear. Sitting at home doing nothing is a better motivator. I see what you are saying that LP is an easy way out when I would otherwise be sitting at home staring at the wall. There probably always is something I could be doing that would be better than posting on LP but there are certainly a lot of worse things I could be doing too. Searching for jobs is one that pops up. Everyone decided to go home after the meeting today so I can't really hang out with anyone at this point. I could clean my room... I could watch Jordan Peterson lectures... The point is I am tired. I am winding down for sleep. I will eventually hit the novel I am currently reading but why not stop into LP for a bit?
AA may be the path of least resistance but it is also where I will likely find the most quality relationships and community. I go hang out with friends from work and they are all on ecstasy and cocaine. They are also quite young. Why would I mess around with meetups or other avenues if I can meet at least 150 quality friends in AA? It's not like AA is just 100% old Jesus freaks. I think part of your opinion of AA may have been formed by some of my harsh, negative rants. I don't even remember exactly what I said and there was probably a lot of truth to it.
Do you have many fellow vegan, anti-natalist, athiest friends?
I have 0 that would qualify. I am just a hypocritical vegan though. I have some anti-natalist/athiest friends. More of those is something I would be interested in seeking out. That and death cafes. I have asked some people about it and it did not seem like such a warm reception.
Human connection is the opposite of addiction. I know you are a fan of that ideology. I am too but I think there is more to it than just that. In order to get some human connection it would be wise for most cases to take the steps. Also, to get mentored a bit by the people who are living sober lives successfully. I know I did not know how to live life sober and I needed some education and support. If someone were to take me out of the situation I found myself in at the depths of my alcoholism and put me in whatever my version of a rat park would be I could see that working but that is not realistic and I am also not sure that it would work. I was pretty shaken up. For example, in rehab everyone had a bbq. I sat in the corner under a tree chugging water bottles wishing it were wine or whiskey crying.
It is interesting what kind of friends we end up with though. One thing real quick that a lot of my closest friends have in common is that we are all athiest. A lot of open minded, free thinkers. After that it is just more like do we have fun together? Do we make each other laugh? Proximity is the obvious number 1 factor. In a way I think we just see people a lot and if they are cool then we just go with it.
I have a pretty low opinion of people in general, so no, I don't have a lot of friends. I used to have a large number of friends, but I pretty much burned all my bridges a long time ago. I've been part of some vegan/antinatalist/atheist communities online over the years since then but I've also distanced myself from them. I don't find 99% of these people remotely interesting. There's only so much you can say on these topics anyway, so what you find there are a lot of obsessive people who have opinions but there's never any progression in their thinking. The repetition of it all and the mundane exchanges depresses me after some time. I don't care to try to meet people, I've made zero attempts to do that in a decade or more. I'd just like to have one or two good friends who share some of my specific interests.
The problem for me is two-fold. Most people haven't been able to avoid the typical cultural imprinting and they are severely corrupted by mass culture, unconsciously so, of course. I avoided that imprinting so I'm a deviant. The second part of the problem is that I'm also extremely lucid and self-critical. People who go off the beaten path are typically delusional or dogmatic, so I don't get along with them. They're more interesting than the normies to be sure, but not more interesting than my own company. I've resigned myself to the idea that it won't get much better than this because a life that is truly worth living is not possible for people like me in this day and age. That's something I understood from Hermann Hesse a decade ago and it has been confirmed to me several times. I've been in a relationship with a woman for about 8 years with whom I live, so I get plenty of human contact which keeps me sane despite the lack of other meaningful friendships.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Human connection is the opposite of addiction. I know you are a fan of that ideology. I am too but I think there is more to it than just that. In order to get some human connection it would be wise for most cases to take the steps.
It's not that it's the opposite, it's that addiction is what we have to turn to when we cannot satisfy our social and symbolic needs which are absolutely fundamental. So of course there is a lot more to that than simply saying "if you can meet people often enough you will be able to beat your addictions". Often times, we dislike ourselves so much that it doesn't matter that we have friends, these connections are worthless and will remain so for as long as we avoid dealing with our demons.
I think taking the steps of any program has little to do with wisdom, the steps exist because there is tremendous need for guidance and support in our society. The millions of self-help books, videos and programs are a symptom of our sickness as a society. It has next to nothing to do with individual shortcomings or choice. The problem is structural, it's the post-modern condition. There's no particular program that offers a lasting solution to a fragmented self. The closest one can get to a solution is by carefully studying the condition itself, working on the diagnosis. The more aware of the condition, the less of a puppet you become. That's what I sincerely believe -- there are degrees of freedom, and the higher ones are achievable by cultivating an increasing awareness of oneself as a biological self but also as a socio-historical self. Understanding what it means to be human and how the world has shaped us are the only steps that I see worth taking. The rest might have temporary therapeutic value, and that's worth something to be sure, but on its own there is no tangible long-term progress to be made there. It cannot replace a real education and the kind of intellectual/spiritual efforts that lead to a robust sense of self-worth.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On December 08 2017 11:59 Loco wrote:
I have a pretty low opinion of people in general, so no, I don't have a lot of friends. I used to have a large number of friends, but I pretty much burned all my bridges a long time ago. I've been part of some vegan/antinatalist/atheist communities online over the years since then but I've also distanced myself from them. I don't find 99% of these people remotely interesting. There's only so much you can say on these topics anyway, so what you find there are a lot of obsessive people who have opinions but there's never any progression in their thinking. The repetition of it all and the mundane exchanges depresses me after some time. I don't care to try to meet people, I've made zero attempts to do that in a decade or more. I'd just like to have one or two good friends who share some of my specific interests.
The problem for me is two-fold. Most people haven't been able to avoid the typical cultural imprinting and they are severely corrupted by mass culture, unconsciously so, of course. I avoided that imprinting so I'm a deviant. The second part of the problem is that I'm also extremely lucid and self-critical. People who go off the beaten path are typically delusional or dogmatic, so I don't get along with them. They're more interesting than the normies to be sure, but not more interesting than my own company. I've resigned myself to the idea that it won't get much better than this because a life that is truly worth living is not possible for people like me in this day and age. That's something I understood from Hermann Hesse a decade ago and it has been confirmed to me several times. I've been in a relationship with a woman for about 8 years with whom I live, so I get plenty of human contact which keeps me sane despite the lack of other meaningful friendships.
I don't know. That sounds good enough to me. I see what you are saying about being a lucid, self-aware deviant. I think being a little delusional or dogmatic can be forgiven if they are good company. Maybe not though. I am thinking of all my best friends and I think the most important thing we have in common besides proximity is we just like spending time together for whatever reason. I think a big one is that stories resonate.
"A life that is truly worth living is not possible for people like me in this day and age." It can be argued that no life is worth living. I won't go that far because I don't have the consciousness of other people. I would say my life seems worth living. I don't really think about it too much at the moment. Suicide is bad so my life would have to get a lot worse or I would have to get really depressed or both. Even if my life got significantly worse I am sure I could still find worth whether that is rationalizing or not.
I don't really want to go into a pep talk about there are more similarities than differences in people and blah blah blah but I thought about it so I am writing at least this much. You do come off as thinking that you are better than everyone and no one is good enough for you. If you want friends you will figure out a way. It goes back to your observation that LP is a surrogate. Well it is but there is also some decent discourse on here to make me feel less lonely. It is not as good as getting a group of people on a patio and having quality discourse but it does pass the time better than staring at a wall.
Would you go to a Death Cafe in Montreal?
I mean there are a lot of interesting people in the world or maybe there aren't but there are enough interesting people. I have found one of the keys to finding these interesting people is to say "yes" to some things you really might not normally say "yes" to or feel comfortable saying "yes" to. That can snowball into consistent quality opportunities in one's free time. Or, you could say fuck all this I just want to read. I don't think reading or creating is ever a bad choice.
Human connection is the opposite of addiction. I know you are a fan of that ideology. I am too but I think there is more to it than just that. In order to get some human connection it would be wise for most cases to take the steps.
It's not that it's the opposite, it's that addiction is what we have to turn to when we cannot satisfy our social and symbolic needs which are absolutely fundamental. So of course there is a lot more to that than simply saying "if you can meet people often enough you will be able to beat your addictions". Often times, we dislike ourselves so much that it doesn't matter that we have friends, these connections are worthless and will remain so for as long as we avoid dealing with our demons.
What is a symbolic need?
Demons are dealt with pretty well in the AA steps. Forget all the higher power and God stuff in the fourth step one takes a deep look at his/her resentments, fears, and sexual conduct. I started to see a lot of patterns and insights. Telling someone the nitty gritty of my past and having a discussion about it was unbelievably freeing. Forget about wishing away defects of character. Making amends is cool and helps be a part of society again. I am not sure if a better way exists. In step 1 we understand alcoholism. In step 2 we understand we are going to need something sufficient enough to replace the alcohol. Some like to call it God we can just call it human connection here. Then we are put in rooms with 30 or more people that many of those people have been living sober successfully for many years.
I think taking the steps of any program has little to do with wisdom, the steps exist because there is tremendous need for guidance and support in our society. The millions of self-help books, videos and programs are a symptom of our sickness as a society. It has next to nothing to do with individual shortcomings or choice. The problem is structural, it's the post-modern condition. There's no particular program that offers a lasting solution to a fragmented self. The closest one can get to a solution is by carefully studying the condition itself, working on the diagnosis. The more aware of the condition, the less of a puppet you become. That's what I sincerely believe -- there are degrees of freedom, and the higher ones are achievable by cultivating an increasing awareness of oneself as a biological self but also as a socio-historical self. Understanding what it means to be human and how the world has shaped us are the only steps that I see worth taking. The rest might have temporary therapeutic value, and that's worth something to be sure, but on its own there is no tangible long-term progress to be made there. It cannot replace a real education and the kind of intellectual/spiritual efforts that lead to a robust sense of self-worth.
What is a real education?
Can a self be everlastingly non-fragmented?
The steps of AA offer a solution to not drink. They don't offer a solution to be content all the time. That's why I seek elsewhere as well (especially since the most common suggestion in AA would likely be prayer to a (Christian) God)). I would agree that the biological self and socio-historical self are very important to analyze. Yes, the world would definitely be better off if we focused a lot of energy on understanding what it means to be human and how the world has shaped us. If we did this we might all decide to commit suicide hand in hand. Likely though a lot of good changes would come from it. Individually I would probably find a bit more of that contentment and peace.
I guess when you're a recluse there is no way around not coming off like you think you're better than everybody else. It's not about that though. It's like that Carlin joke.
My tolerance level has become very low over the years and I haven't been fortunate enough to meet truly worthwhile people, which I know exist. The problem is as much about me not being worthy of other people's friendships as it is me thinking other people aren't worthy of my friendship. I'm kind of stuck in the middle. I can't take most people seriously since they are corrupted by mass culture, but I also can't be taken seriously by the people I'm interested in, "the elite", since I haven't put anywhere near the amount of work they have into "becoming someone". So instead I experience the minds and creations of such people through art and literature as much as I can. I certainly don't feel better than everyone on a daily basis, I haven't produced anything of any worth contrary to those people I enjoy and learn from, so how could I?
I am making a distinction between a life that is truly worth living and one which is just worth enough to keep living. I wouldn't argue that no life is worth living (or was ever worth living), I find the idea that I could know that to be absurd. I would go to a death café, mostly to listen to people. I joined the meetup group for it.
Symbolic needs are the needs that Becker talks about, which lead to our immortality projects.
However, in the post-modern world we need an education that deals with the complexity of our world and the many things we have learned from science since that ancient period. This briefly touches upon some pressing needs for education reform:
Can a self be everlastingly non-fragmented?
Not anymore, unless you live in some isolated religious culture which is ignorant of the works of people like Marx, Freud and Nietzsche.
The steps of AA offer a solution to not drink. They don't offer a solution to be content all the time. That's why I seek elsewhere as well (especially since the most common suggestion in AA would likely be prayer to a (Christian) God)). I would agree that the biological self and socio-historical self are very important to analyze. Yes, the world would definitely be better off if we focused a lot of energy on understanding what it means to be human and how the world has shaped us. If we did this we might all decide to commit suicide hand in hand. Likely though a lot of good changes would come from it. Individually I would probably find a bit more of that contentment and peace.
The thing with AA and other self-help and guidance programs is that people are not educated about the structural problems that have led to their addictions, like they would be if they were studying these thinkers. The effort is solely put on controlling the symptoms of the structural issues. They're trying to make you functional, not knowledgeable.
It isn't correct to say they offer a solution not to drink. Religion and belief in a "higher power" can be said to be a solution to everything, but it isn't. What allows you not to drink is the knowledge that you can't moderate it and the support that you receive in your resolution not to drink. It has nothing to do with the steps or a higher power, and everything to do with the community/supporting environment. The same could be achieved elsewhere if the environment was just as supportive.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On December 09 2017 14:54 Loco wrote:
I guess when you're a recluse there is no way around not coming off like you think you're better than everybody else. It's not about that though. It's like that Carlin joke.
I didn't accuse you of thinking your were better than everyone just that you come off that way. I have been reclusive in my past and I get it. I think one thing that helps me is I have been told I have a great smile, a relaxed, knowing smile. I am not very talkative in groups and I think my smile saves me. I do better with one on one or small groups of say 4. I don't see you carrying around a lot of pomp. It is probably in your favor that I would imagine there are a lot of universities in Montreal. I have never really sought out people in academia. I have a decent number of friends in academia but that is mostly math and science.
My tolerance level has become very low over the years and I haven't been fortunate enough to meet truly worthwhile people, which I know exist. The problem is as much about me not being worthy of other people's friendships as it is me thinking other people aren't worthy of my friendship. I'm kind of stuck in the middle. I can't take most people seriously since they are corrupted by mass culture, but I also can't be taken seriously by the people I'm interested in, "the elite", since I haven't put anywhere near the amount of work they have into "becoming someone". So instead I experience the minds and creations of such people through art and literature as much as I can. I certainly don't feel better than everyone on a daily basis, I haven't produced anything of any worth contrary to those people I enjoy and learn from, so how could I?
I guarantee there is like an associates professor out there in some form of philosophy or science that you would get along great with. I guess that is my ideal of someone in the middle and maybe ideals are not trustworthy and how does one meet these people?
I hear you on the mass culture. If some one is wearing nikes and on snap chat it is hard not to disqualify them.
You could still feel better than the people that have not put as much work in as you have. It would be difficult to feel better than Rodin or Monet or Nietzsche but that doesn't mean you don't feel better than Mortenson8 or VanDerMeyde or random guy indoctrinated by mass culture. Do you think it is random guy's fault? This is where I take a more deterministic viewpoint because getting away from mass culture is a pretty difficult thing to do and probably not likely for most people. It takes a certain amount of intelligence but also maybe a streak of anti-socialness. That is not the exact word I want to use. I could use open mindedness, free thinking but I wanted to stress that it could be conceived as a mostly negative trait especially by many ra ra ra mass culture/symbolic need fanatics.
I am making a distinction between a life that is truly worth living and one which is just worth enough to keep living. I wouldn't argue that no life is worth living (or was ever worth living), I find the idea that I could know that to be absurd. I would go to a death café, mostly to listen to people. I joined the meetup group for it.
I would be interested to hear how the death cafe goes.
Symbolic needs are the needs that Becker talks about, which lead to our immortality projects.
However, in the post-modern world we need an education that deals with the complexity of our world and the many things we have learned from science since that ancient period. This briefly touches upon some pressing needs for education reform:
Not anymore, unless you live in some isolated religious culture which is ignorant of the works of people like Marx, Freud and Nietzsche.
The steps of AA offer a solution to not drink. They don't offer a solution to be content all the time. That's why I seek elsewhere as well (especially since the most common suggestion in AA would likely be prayer to a (Christian) God)). I would agree that the biological self and socio-historical self are very important to analyze. Yes, the world would definitely be better off if we focused a lot of energy on understanding what it means to be human and how the world has shaped us. If we did this we might all decide to commit suicide hand in hand. Likely though a lot of good changes would come from it. Individually I would probably find a bit more of that contentment and peace.
The thing with AA and other self-help and guidance programs is that people are not educated about the structural problems that have led to their addictions, like they would be if they were studying these thinkers. The effort is solely put on controlling the symptoms of the structural issues. They're trying to make you functional, not knowledgeable.
What thinkers?
I don't know what structural issues you are referring to exactly but the Big Book and also many people within AA do spend a lot of time on structural issues that cause alcoholics to drink. It is very knowledge based.
It isn't correct to say they offer a solution not to drink. Religion and belief in a "higher power" can be said to be a solution to everything, but it isn't. What allows you not to drink is the knowledge that you can't moderate it and the support that you receive in your resolution not to drink. It has nothing to do with the steps or a higher power, and everything to do with the community/supporting environment. The same could be achieved elsewhere if the environment was just as supportive.
There is a lot of knowledge about oneself to be acquired through doing the steps. The first step is all about understanding that we can not moderate alcohol and we seem to have a mental obsession regarding it. The most common "higher power" is g.o.d. or a group of drunks. That is basically the community and support you are talking about. Step 4 we get more knowledge about ourselves and why we drank. 6 and 7 we get more accustomed and knowledge about pitfalls. 8 and 9 we mend our past. Step 12 gives us meaning in helping others. The steps allow us to overcome our past and become one with the world again. Quality human connection is difficult with out taking the steps and getting support through that process. Could there be a better way of doing it? There is no doubt about it in my mind but as it currently stands it does work. AA is stuck in 1935 and far too many traditionalists but it does work. It was the only thing that worked for me. That doesn't mean it is the only thing that would have worked for me but I don't really know of anything more promising as it stands today.
Of course not. I said I avoided the typical cultural imprinting, but not that I consciously did so. A big part of that was due to prolonged illness (debilitating anxiety) when I was young, so I came to know alienation from a very young age. I didn't choose that. I later chose to cultivate myself in solitude but without the prior experiences that would not have happened. And even for that to happen I had to be pushed in multiple ways by forces beyond my control. It was more of a compulsion than choice. If nothing went terribly wrong in your life, you'll just be a well-adjusted product of your culture, there's no debate about it and no reason to blame anyone for who they are (or aren't) based on this.
What thinkers?
I don't know what structural issues you are referring to exactly but the Big Book and also many people within AA do spend a lot of time on structural issues that cause alcoholics to drink. It is very knowledge based.
I've named them. Nietzsche, Freud, Marx.
Listen to this classic series by prof Roderick to understand what I mean re structural issues not discussed in twelve steps programs. He specifically talks about twelve steps programs.
It does work
According to a 2006 Cochrane Review (one of the most reliable and objective source of information there is): "No experimental studies unequivocally demonstrated the effectiveness of AA or TSF (Twelve step Facilitation) approaches for reducing alcohol dependence or problems" and "Severity of addiction and drinking consequence did not seem to be differentially influenced by [twelve-step programs] versus comparison treatment interventions, [...] and no conclusive differences in treatment drop out rates were reported."
I've no doubt the whole process and supporting environment has worked for you, but that's not to say something else couldn't have worked even better (as you said). If that's the best you found and it has improved your life a lot, then by all means, I have nothing against it. I just think that however much knowledge you think those steps have brought you, it's not enough. I think that's fairly obvious from all of your blog posts as well. This whole time that you've been blogging sober you have been looking for answers that this book and those people are not able to offer you.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On December 04 2017 14:34 PetterPLO wrote:
Loco you have very dishonest way to discuss.
Telling someone they will gain all their weight back after a much needed weight loss is extremly low.
Just because it's not fun to hear the truth doesn't mean it's dishonest to tell it. I've studied in this field extensively and I am making evidence-based claims. If you are a pro poker player and someone who started a few months ago tried to justify their misplays or even worse, they tried to teach you how to play, would it be "extremely low" of you to point out their mistakes?
Anyone who is knowledgeable about nutrition and lifestyle medicine will tell you that what people need is not just weight loss, it's long term weight maintenance. Millions of people crash and burn on fad diets and you're saying that it's a bad thing to try to educate them because it might hurt their feefees. It's not my fault that people are dogmatic about food and they can't objectively look at the information presented to them if it goes against their deeply held beliefs.
The keto diet burns ten times more fat than a standard American diet – even without exercise, research suggests !!!! ( So even with BIG handicap, keto diet crushes)
They found that that those following the low-carb plan advocated by the diet saw the most health benefits compared to those on a typical diet, whether the latter carried out physical activity or not (!!!)
The keto group saw significantly better results even without physical activity
They were compared to those on a standard diet – with and without exercise
They had lower weight, body fat percentage and body mass index (BMI)
Also had lower blood sugar levels and more ketones which break down fat
PUBLISHED: 14:22 GMT, 14 December 2017 | UPDATED: 08:51 GMT, 15 December 2017
I wish one of your guys had children if I could kick them in the fucking head or stomp on their testicles so you can feel my pain because thats the pain I have waking up everyday -- Mike Tyson
United States. Dec 08 2017 04:30. Posts 8526
