Spitfiree, when you say "If things were normal" what do you mean exactly? What is this "normal" ideal you hold, where does it come from, and why should society abide by it? It sounds like your position is something like: "if free speech was absolute, which we know it should be, and intolerant views were always allowed everywhere, we wouldn't have a problem." Is this accurate? Obviously, I suspect my use of 'intolerant' here might bother you because we are not in agreement over which views are motivated by intolerance, but let's just for the sake of argument consider views that we will both agree are intolerant. You're saying it's always going to be better (make society less chaotic) to allow them being discussed neutrally, even coming from a prof, is that right?
Also, you accuse me of jumping to conclusions, but aren't you jumping to conclusions when you're attributing the viral nature of Peterson and Shepherd to the single, indisputable fact that people are being silenced in academia? We live in a complex world and people have hidden motivations, and you just figured out that there cannot possibly be any other reason why these people went viral? There's just no chance at all that they're appealing to people who have similar prejudices as them -- they are absolutely one hundred percent conscious of their motivations, they are fair, balanced freedom warriors who just really really care about Western civilization?
You do know that Lindsay Shepherd has her own "free speech" center on Laurier campus, right? This is your proof of things being REALLY bad RIGHT NOW for free speech? That doesn't seem like a really bad situation to me, that's why I thought you were especially worried about a slippery slope. I'm supposed to assume that people are just cowering in fear of the left right now in Canada and the US and they really have no way to share their opinions with the world?
I'm legit having deja vu right now. It reminds me that I have already said all I had to say on this topic several weeks ago so let me be clear that I'm not looking to have a long back and forth over this with you, I'm just curious to hear some clarifications on these specific points.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Btw, "fun" fact you guys might not be aware of (or a friendly reminder). Anders Breivik slaughtered 69 children with the justification that they had been indoctrinated into Cultural Marxism (Post-modern Neo-Marxism). That's the same conspiracy theory Jordan Peterson pushes--he's even used the original term a few times if you have any doubts--and this is why his material is listed by the Alt-Right (who still celebrate Breivik) as "good propaganda".
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Anders Behring Breivik also thought that the conservative party "Høyre" (Right wing party) was influensed by Cultural Marxism and in a "multicultural alliance". I dont think he has much in common with JP, Ron Paul, Pat Buchanan or others that talks about cultural marxism. He was a very good "World of Warcraft" player going completly nuts, writing and saying a lot of random shit and hrowing around "cool sounding" terms he probably did not know very much about.
I also think its important to be factually correct and precise when talking about historical events.. him killing "69 children" is a semiwrong statement. The political camp was not a "childrens camp" but a "youth camp". 37 of the victims were above 18 years old of age. Thou I think most of the victims were in the 16-20-24 range.
On January 31 2018 01:37 Loco wrote:
Spitfiree, when you say "If things were normal" what do you mean exactly? What is this "normal" ideal you hold, where does it come from, and why should society abide by it? It sounds like your position is something like: "if free speech was absolute, which we know it should be, and intolerant views were always allowed everywhere, we wouldn't have a problem." Is this accurate? Obviously, I suspect my use of 'intolerant' here might bother you because we are not in agreement over which views are motivated by intolerance, but let's just for the sake of argument consider views that we will both agree are intolerant. You're saying it's always going to be better (make society less chaotic) to allow them being discussed neutrally, even coming from a prof, is that right?
That's a good question indeed. Yeah, that's exactly my view on free speech with some cases of exception. There should be no political agenda spread by teachers on any level - I'm pretty sure it's like that in most countries. Obviously Peterson went out of that way, but that's due to the censoring law. Schools and Universities are supposed to be the place to grow intellectually, not where you get your ideas stopped because someone decided they're not appropriate. Our society doesn't grow with appropriate ideas.
On January 31 2018 01:37 Loco wrote:
Also, you accuse me of jumping to conclusions, but aren't you jumping to conclusions when you're attributing the viral nature of Peterson and Shepherd to the single, indisputable fact that people are being silenced in academia? We live in a complex world and people have hidden motivations, and you just figured out that there cannot possibly be any other reason why these people went viral? There's just no chance at all that they're appealing to people who have similar prejudices as them -- they are absolutely one hundred percent conscious of their motivations, they are fair, balanced freedom warriors who just really really care about Western civilization?
You do know that Lindsay Shepherd has her own "free speech" center on Laurier campus, right? This is your proof of things being REALLY bad RIGHT NOW for free speech? That doesn't seem like a really bad situation to me, that's why I thought you were especially worried about a slippery slope. I'm supposed to assume that people are just cowering in fear of the left right now in Canada and the US and they really have no way to share their opinions with the world?
Sure Peterson has some alter motive. I haven't figured it out, but he probably does. But either way it doesn't matter if they do. Neither of them would be put in this situation where they go viral, unless the government didn't decide to cut the freedom of speech rights, am i not right? And again you jump to conclusions. I'm saying that this is how bad political regimes start. Once people start coweing in fear then its gonna be way too late.
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Stroggoz New Zealand. Jan 31 2018 11:40. Posts 5299
On January 31 2018 04:36 Loco wrote:
Btw, "fun" fact you guys might not be aware of (or a friendly reminder). Anders Breivik slaughtered 69 children with the justification that they had been indoctrinated into Cultural Marxism (Post-modern Neo-Marxism). That's the same conspiracy theory Jordan Peterson pushes--he's even used the original term a few times if you have any doubts--and this is why his material is listed by the Alt-Right (who still celebrate Breivik) as "good propaganda".
wow thats weak. You basically mentioned that to imply that if you agree with breivik on something ur a lunatic. please dont stoop to fox news level of argumentation haha.
One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beings
1
Stroggoz New Zealand. Jan 31 2018 11:42. Posts 5299
Ita a bit weird to call cultural marxiam a conspiracy. Clearly that is wrong Its more of a dogma.
One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beings
On January 30 2018 12:26 Spitfiree wrote:
I'm not dropping my guard entirely, I'm disregarding the potential threat of nazis due to empirical observation in our current western society - a movement like that simply cannot gain momentum in our reality at the moment - should I really explain why to you?
I used to think like that, then this happened:
Election results
Hellenic Parliament
golden dawn
2009 0.3%
2012 7.0%
These guys are as Nazi as a party can get, I'm not talking Le Pen shenanigans here. People know exactly who they are and they still support them.
They have member initiation oaths where they hold torches and swear to obey whatever the leader tells them to do. They once kicked out the entirety of the press because the journalists wouldn't rise when their leader came into the room for his speech. They have a military structure and their basic goons never act without orders from hq. They have (with proof) infiltrated the greek police, there are videos in which they train their members with guns and the minister of public order and civil protection (belongs to the right wing) has said that they have hidden caches with weapons around greece.
They're responsible for multiple stabbings/assaults over the years, yet they only got serious backlash and are currently on trial as an organization after they group stabbed to death a left wing rapper while he was eating a few years back. (When the victims where immigrants nobody really gave a shit.)
It just takes an economic depression and rampant nationalism and the real shit can hit the fan. The alt left will do what? Annoy us to death? In my book if there's no central communist party around which all the radical left will gather and follow precise calculated orders, the threat is non comparable. I just don't see these large communist parties anywhere, people could see the rise of Hitler's party that you refer to in your post, what's today's equivalent?
Are you seroius? Venezuela is starving because of electing a leftist president, in minor degree also Brazil, Argentina's economy tanked because of leftist presidents and Mexico has election soons and the favorite is a huge demagoge from the left.
The threat of the right seems more imminent because its directly violent, becaues Nazis will curb stump your gender-neutral multicultural ass, left wingers will stop freedoms, create 100 fiscally unresponsible programs nationalize shit and tank the economy
I don't think it's a good idea to group all left wing governments with communism when talking about how dangerous communism is compared to fascism nowadays. A government intervening more than we like isn't necessarily communistic. To me it seems that globally communism is dying out even in its usual strongholds. Sure Venezuela is a thing, but most people I see referring to cultural Marxism probably don't even have a real sizable communist party in their country. Europe for example seems to be swinging to the far right judging by the growth of these parties in election results. I'm not saying that these right wing populists are always little fuhrers itching for military structures and world domination, but to me it's somewhat indicative of communism not being the more serious threat. I don't really know what's going on in Mexico, maybe we're both influenced by what's geographically closer to us when assessing political dangers, I know I've had enough of the skinhead retards around here.
Being from Greece I can assure you that being fiscally irresponsible isn't only a characteristic of the left parties, populism/corruption does wonders for the right too.
new shit has come to light... a-and... shit! man...
On January 31 2018 10:42 Stroggoz wrote:
Ita a bit weird to call cultural marxiam a conspiracy. Clearly that is wrong Its more of a dogma.
From Rational Wiki:
Cultural Marxism generally refers to one of two things:
First — extremely rarely — "Cultural Marxism" refers to an obscure critique of popular culture by the Frankfurt School, framing culture as being imposed by a capitalist culture industry and consumed passively by the masses.
Second — in common usage in the wild — "Cultural Marxism" is a snarl word used to paint anyone with progressive tendencies as a secret Communist. The term alludes to a conspiracy theory in which sinister left-wingers have infiltrated media, academia, and science and are engaged in a decades-long plot to undermine Western culture. Some variants of the conspiracy alleges that basically all of modern social liberalism is, in fact, a Communist front group.
Rest of page that talks about relation to the right wingers and fascim (Nazis).
On January 30 2018 12:26 Spitfiree wrote:
I'm not dropping my guard entirely, I'm disregarding the potential threat of nazis due to empirical observation in our current western society - a movement like that simply cannot gain momentum in our reality at the moment - should I really explain why to you?
I used to think like that, then this happened:
Election results
Hellenic Parliament
golden dawn
2009 0.3%
2012 7.0%
These guys are as Nazi as a party can get, I'm not talking Le Pen shenanigans here. People know exactly who they are and they still support them.
They have member initiation oaths where they hold torches and swear to obey whatever the leader tells them to do. They once kicked out the entirety of the press because the journalists wouldn't rise when their leader came into the room for his speech. They have a military structure and their basic goons never act without orders from hq. They have (with proof) infiltrated the greek police, there are videos in which they train their members with guns and the minister of public order and civil protection (belongs to the right wing) has said that they have hidden caches with weapons around greece.
They're responsible for multiple stabbings/assaults over the years, yet they only got serious backlash and are currently on trial as an organization after they group stabbed to death a left wing rapper while he was eating a few years back. (When the victims where immigrants nobody really gave a shit.)
It just takes an economic depression and rampant nationalism and the real shit can hit the fan. The alt left will do what? Annoy us to death? In my book if there's no central communist party around which all the radical left will gather and follow precise calculated orders, the threat is non comparable. I just don't see these large communist parties anywhere, people could see the rise of Hitler's party that you refer to in your post, what's today's equivalent?
Are you seroius? Venezuela is starving because of electing a leftist president, in minor degree also Brazil, Argentina's economy tanked because of leftist presidents and Mexico has election soons and the favorite is a huge demagoge from the left.
The threat of the right seems more imminent because its directly violent, becaues Nazis will curb stump your gender-neutral multicultural ass, left wingers will stop freedoms, create 100 fiscally unresponsible programs nationalize shit and tank the economy
I don't think it's a good idea to group all left wing governments with communism when talking about how dangerous communism is compared to fascism nowadays. A government intervening more than we like isn't necessarily communistic. To me it seems that globally communism is dying out even in its usual strongholds. Sure Venezuela is a thing, but most people I see referring to cultural Marxism probably don't even have a real sizable communist party in their country. Europe for example seems to be swinging to the far right judging by the growth of these parties in election results. I'm not saying that these right wing populists are always little fuhrers itching for military structures and world domination, but to me it's somewhat indicative of communism not being the more serious threat. I don't really know what's going on in Mexico, maybe we're both influenced by what's geographically closer to us when assessing political dangers, I know I've had enough of the skinhead retards around here.
Being from Greece I can assure you that being fiscally irresponsible isn't only a characteristic of the left parties, populism/corruption does wonders for the right too.
Well we are extrapolating JBP to nazism so Its only fair to also extrapolate left to communism since I guess we are talking about the influence and dangers of these ideologies, Europe isnt just swinging right for no reason, its a counter-culture movement because the left was in control of Europe for decades, I suppose its a natural pendulum when one ideology tends to grow and dissapoint people so this other mediocre ideology in the same authoritarian scale takes over.
What is alarming is that common ground is being lost, meaning both sides are polarizing more and more to the right/left and this could be very dangerous,
Europe kinda got rid of the right populist movements - the storm has passed in all big nations except the UK, which was dumb enough to vote in BRexit and is now delaying as much as possible and looking how to not move on with it.
I agree with Baal's last sentence, its the main problem nowadays, the average person nowadays can't really identify with actual politics these days cause there are 2 poles and no middle ground - at some point they will have to pick a side. Never in history has that ended well (regardless of which pole takes control). All European countries that matter have had their elections and didn't change a thing, the went to the other end of the spectrum, so let's see what works.
In all honesty, I feel like the political world simply cannot comprehend how fast the world is advancing thus it does bad decision after bad decision. You can see a direct projection of that with people that think the USA needs to bring back production locally and coal is still a thing. It seems like its time for a generation change in politics on a global level, so lets see how that goes the next years
Quote a lot of danish people been working at my job and they are the chillest dudes ever. Never any stress and never any negativity. The only problem is that they talk so god damn quickly that I cant hang on to what they are acctually saying. Its a bit harder for a norwegian to understand danish than the other way around. I end up nodding a lot
I am not overly familiar with it I am just intrigued by the idea. In Denmark the minimum wage is $20/hr. Denmark has a higher standard of living than the US. The US minimum wage is typically $8/hr and in these same areas a living wage would probably be about $15/hr. A living wage is a wage that can maintain a normal standard of living (whatever that means). Whatever that means means decent housing, decent budget for most things. If one is not blowing it all there is enough even for if the car breaks down or the need for an expensive operation. I think what could be more interesting and what Finland is doing is a basic income. I don't know much about it I am just intrigued by it. I figured that would "cool thing" would get the most blowback which I am encouraging. From my perspective I would love to be living in Denmark or Finland.
Well I'm against minimum wage since I think the market rightfully decides the worth of your work and it actually creates unemployment, a very obvious example of this is McDonalds workers pushing for 15/hr, this is accelerating the development of automatization in the cashiers, so its important to be aware that raising minimum wage isnt remotely good in redistributing wealth
The basic income is indeed interesting, I could see a future where this is the way most of the world goes if we dont find a way to stop the funneling of the economy to the top, however this is only viable in a post-scarcity world, otherwise it could be extremely harmful for the human race to have such an incentive to lazyness
On January 31 2018 04:36 Loco wrote:
Btw, "fun" fact you guys might not be aware of (or a friendly reminder). Anders Breivik slaughtered 69 children with the justification that they had been indoctrinated into Cultural Marxism (Post-modern Neo-Marxism). That's the same conspiracy theory Jordan Peterson pushes--he's even used the original term a few times if you have any doubts--and this is why his material is listed by the Alt-Right (who still celebrate Breivik) as "good propaganda".
wow thats weak. You basically mentioned that to imply that if you agree with breivik on something ur a lunatic. please dont stoop to fox news level of argumentation haha.
No, that's not what I meant. I believe that conspiracy theories are typically harmless but this one is far from being harmless. It's not just "something". You say that as if it could be any trivial thing. It's paranoid and hateful ideological possession. And the fact that it just keeps gaining more ground and it's given new legitimacy by influential public figures suggests that more people will become possessed by it, so it's just a matter of time before another extremely disturbed individual acts upon it. It's not something to take lightly. I was thinking about lebowski's post when I posted this, because he said Peterson is not that bad to follow blindly, but he was probably not considering how many people can be self-radicalizing right now partly due to his influence. Do you agree with Breivik about something?
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On January 31 2018 22:00 Spitfiree wrote:
Europe kinda got rid of the right populist movements - the storm has passed in all big nations except the UK, which was dumb enough to vote in BRexit and is now delaying as much as possible and looking how to not move on with it.
I agree with Baal's last sentence, its the main problem nowadays, the average person nowadays can't really identify with actual politics these days cause there are 2 poles and no middle ground - at some point they will have to pick a side. Never in history has that ended well (regardless of which pole takes control). All European countries that matter have had their elections and didn't change a thing, the went to the other end of the spectrum, so let's see what works.
In all honesty, I feel like the political world simply cannot comprehend how fast the world is advancing thus it does bad decision after bad decision. You can see a direct projection of that with people that think the USA needs to bring back production locally and coal is still a thing. It seems like its time for a generation change in politics on a global level, so lets see how that goes the next years
I also agree with you/Baal that this is the biggest threat. Though it's not just a matter of how fast the world is advancing and our inability to comprehend it. It has a lot to do with information technologies shaping us to be intellectually lazy, blind and overly self-confident/self-interested. It has to do with the education system serving only one purpose: to prepare us for the job market. We are not taught how to understand ourselves and other human beings, how to communicate, how to think global. The dominant paradigm (the Cartesian one) that we inherited from the Enlightenment is on its last legs, but people are not going to let go of the certainties that it has provided them easily.
Also, it's not that we don't have common ground--we always have common ground in the planetary era. Everyone faces the same mortal dangers now when it comes to the species' survival. It's just that people refuse to see it or they refer to an abstract cosmopolitanism that leads no where like the hippies and the new agers do. Part of the problem is that our view of progress is naively unidimensional and strongly biased towards optimism. For instance we'll point to technological progress and think "look at how far we've gone, how many deadly diseases will we eradicate in the next hundred years?" but we won't spend time thinking about the fact that it is this exact same progress that has made it possible for ancient diseases to come back simultaneously along with the creation of new superbugs made possible by our overuse of antibiotics--especially in animal agriculture.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On January 31 2018 20:00 RiKD wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 31 2018 10:42 Stroggoz wrote: Rest of page that talks about relation to the right wingers and fascim (Nazis).
RationalWiki is pretty fun at times (for me as a leftist) but it's sometimes quite bad and biased. Not an authoritative source on important subjects. It's definitely a conspiracy theory though (and pretty fascinating to look into in depth): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfu...ol#Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
United States. Jan 31 2018 21:00. Posts 8557
