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Mortensen8   Chad. Sep 03 2016 01:55. Posts 1761

The recommended daily dose is pretty low in my opinion at 56g.

Rear naked woke 

Loco   Canada. Sep 03 2016 02:22. Posts 19952

RiKD and others interested in this topic/lifestyle, I've uploaded a few of my favorite nutrition books to my mega account to share with you. If you read just a couple of them it should help you out a lot. They're in .epub format so you need a tablet or something like Readium on your PC.

Links for downloads here:

+ Show Spoiler +



Some interviews with the authors:





Those who make a peaceful revolution impossible, will make a violent revolution inevitable.Last edit: 03/09/2016 05:52

RiKD    United States. Sep 03 2016 04:25. Posts 5606

The solution to many things:

"treating the whole problem of health in soil, plant, animal and man as one great subject." - Sir Howard


Loco   Canada. Sep 03 2016 04:31. Posts 19952


  On September 02 2016 22:34 RiKD wrote:



LOL. I just noticed this the notorious podcast where Joe Rogan goes full retard and says "but, if everyone was vegan, the cows would overrun us. Wtf would we do." Oh man. This shit is fucking gold.

Oh and speaking of beans, the Blue Zones YouTube channel hadn't uploaded a single video in over a year, and this was just posted today:

Those who make a peaceful revolution impossible, will make a violent revolution inevitable.Last edit: 03/09/2016 04:45

RiKD    United States. Sep 03 2016 06:27. Posts 5606

Ahh nice. I really enjoyed that Ted talk about the blue zones. Unfortunately, the speaker did not touch on the one in Costa Rica as I absolutely LOVE Costa Rica. Everyday was amazing. Wake up, rice, beans, salsa, CRAZY FRESH FRUIT. OMG, pineapple picked ripe from the tree in nature is MAGICAL. That is a power greater than myself. Outside on the beach, outside on a hike, outside on the river. Everyone was so friendly. A part of my subconscious is searching for ways to do the whole digital nomad thing again. Set up shop near the Renzo Gracie gym down there and live some life.

Okinawa has been on my to do list for a while. Sardinia seems awesome. I would love to go there. I would love to spend a week with the Adventists as well. Sometimes overly religious people get on my nerves but I just think with the Adventists it would be cool. I have come along way with my tolerance and understanding for sure. Definitely, no plans to visit the Westminster Baptists though.

On Rogan:

I can understand it. Eating meat and bodybuilding has been programmed into USA Culture. Hunting. I grew up on Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sylvester Stallone movies. No one ever told me they were on all sorts of drugs. I still hang around some of the macho type of people. Doing bicep curls on a camp retreat in nature asking everyone if they are a man or a mouse. Filling a plate with beef and potatoes as if it is a competition. I have been some form of this person in the past. Talking shit about bench press numbers and how many subway sandwiches I can eat as if it is some marker of masculinity. The problem is that it still is in many social spheres. Man, I could really go deep on this topic but it is not exactly what I intended to talk about...

The whole vegan thing is something Rogan is blind too. Although now apparently not as much as Nate Diaz is vegan and Joe Rogan worships fighters (and is friends with Nate Diaz). The more I am learning about veganism the more I am in danger of being the annoying vegan guy. The annoying vegan guy definitely exists. Part of it, is that many times ignorance is bliss. People love their bad faith. Getting a belief, rationalization, denial debunked is annoying. However, in everyday life most people do not want to hear about whole food, plant based diets unless they are actively seeking out ways to lose weight, remedy heart disease, or feel better. The military industrial complex does a great job at covering up the insane amount of damage done. I had no idea the amount of oil, pollution, cruelty, subsidy, ecological waste, transportation waste, political corruption and the list goes on and on the amount of fucked up shit happening. Immanuel Kant. John Rawls. Smart, ethical soil farmers. If the current system changed to healthy soil, healthy plant, healthy human the world would be a better place.

Yeah, that last paragraph if shoe horned into conversation in real life is why vegans get a bad rap. I have made some military industrial complex posts on facebook and I really think they are just a terrible idea. It is kind of like sex, politics, religion, veganism. Only appropriate time to talk about it is in Truth Discussion Thread or if someone asks about it or if the topic comes up in awake discussion.


Baalim   Mexico. Sep 03 2016 06:31. Posts 32956


  On September 03 2016 00:55 Mortensen8 wrote:
The recommended daily dose is pretty low in my opinion at 56g.



And how did you come up with your ideal grams of protein intake?

Ex-PokerStars Team Pro Online 

Mortensen8   Chad. Sep 03 2016 06:47. Posts 1761

I don't know some formula that might not be correct. Talk about permaculture can't stop thinking about it.

Rear naked woke 

Baalim   Mexico. Sep 03 2016 07:29. Posts 32956

Yeah Rogan was indeed very biased against vegans but that was caused by the very popular obnoxious vegan attitude, nobody was anti-vegetarian in the past decades because they didnt have that liberal douchebag attitude that many vegans have today that instead of helping their cause only polarize people and now the world itself makes a lot of people angry.

Ex-PokerStars Team Pro Online 

jeremy5408   United States. Sep 03 2016 07:47. Posts 122

protein deficiency and optimal protein intake for an individual with very specific goals are two different things. why is this so controversial? i can fit in 80-90g through whole foods but i still choose to supplement 20-40g protein through powders.


Loco   Canada. Sep 03 2016 09:44. Posts 19952


  On September 02 2016 19:00 cariadon wrote:
Show nested quote +



What the hell? Studies show that people have been eating meat for a long time. The fuck is your problem with protein? One of the three macronutrients. They are called macronutrients because you need quite a lot of them in the diet. Eat healthy and stop supplementing. Such backward thinking. Prepare your own meals, you'll learn a lot. Learn to cook and you'll see things from a totally different perspective.


Studies showing that people have been doing X for a long time is not an argument to do X. It's a vacuous observation. It doesn't tell us anything about what is desirable or not (and how it could have been desirable in the past but how that situation has changed). It also sounds like an appeal to tradition. What you probably wanted to say is that people have been benefiting from eating meat for a long time and that therefore we should all be eating meat. If I am correct and this is your position, then that is a very vague, but also extraordinary claim which I sincerely doubt you can back up with solid research. And I say it's vague because that statement doesn't say anything about which meat or in which quantity it is helpful. If you want us to compare the diets that we both recommend and see who has the best evidence for our recommendations, then please make direct statements about what you oppose instead of vague ones like these. Which leads me to your next point...

"The fuck is your problem with protein?"

The precise issue I brought up and which RiKD is struggling with due to his past conditioning-- as you no doubt would be as well judging from your reaction-- is not about protein generally, it's about the fact that a person doesn't actually need meat and dairy to meet their protein needs. I'm saying that if you believe otherwise, you're simply uninformed (or misinformed). Just use common sense: if something is absolutely critical to our lives, then it must be easily attainable, or else we wouldn't have evolved to be the most successful species on the planet. Can you imagine us having been this successful if we had to jump through hoops to get the oxygen we need? So it is with protein. It is ubiquitous in all of the whole, natural foods we evolved to eat. And guess what, plants don't run as fast as animals. It was what we could always rely upon to meet our needs. And to use and extend the oxygen analogy further, we need a certain amount of water and a certain amount of oxygen. Any more than we need would be detrimental and could actually kill us. So it is with protein, again. I am clearly not debating the absolute importance of protein in the diet. It's about which proteins we favor consuming and in which quantity, not whether or not we need protein.

My argument is that the optimal diet is one where you get your protein from plant foods as much as possible. High animal protein diets are consistently associated with higher morbidity and mortality rates. Just recently, again, Harvard scientists came out with a study showing exact that, this time published in the highly respectable JAMA. And they really spell it out this time: "Conclusions and Relevance: High animal protein intake was positively associated with mortality and high plant protein intake was inversely associated with mortality, especially among individuals with at least 1 lifestyle risk factor. Substitution of plant protein for animal protein, especially that from processed red meat, was associated with lower mortality, suggesting the importance of protein source." Source: Association of Animal and Plant Protein Intake With All-Cause and Cause-Specific Mortality.

At least we agree on one thing: supplements are largely a waste of money with only a very few exceptions for some people.

Those who make a peaceful revolution impossible, will make a violent revolution inevitable.Last edit: 03/09/2016 21:46

Loco   Canada. Sep 03 2016 10:28. Posts 19952

Couple more things about protein:

The RDA is based on the ratio of 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of lean body mass, while the WHO more conservatively recommends 0.66 grams of protein per kilogram of lean body mass. The RDA is an inflated number designed to exceed the protein needs of 98% of the population, while the WHO number is probably closer to what you really need. So, not only is it virtually impossible to devise a natural diet that is deficient in protein while sufficient in calories, but that diet that you think is likely deficient in protein is also giving us more than we need if we meet the RDA recommendation. People tend to misunderstand this formula and calculate overall body weight which is a big problem. As for athletes, the need is only increased marginally for most, about 0.2g/kg more than the average person. Most people are way overdoing it.

Those who make a peaceful revolution impossible, will make a violent revolution inevitable.Last edit: 03/09/2016 11:13

Loco   Canada. Sep 03 2016 10:52. Posts 19952


  On September 03 2016 06:29 Baalim wrote:
Yeah Rogan was indeed very biased against vegans but that was caused by the very popular obnoxious vegan attitude, nobody was anti-vegetarian in the past decades because they didnt have that liberal douchebag attitude that many vegans have today that instead of helping their cause only polarize people and now the world itself makes a lot of people angry.




I think that's definitely a valid point re. some vegans being aggressive and generating outrage (which I think is understandable from both sides), but I don't think Joe Rogan would be all the wiser if it hadn't been the case. The guy is just not very smart, you have to admit. He doesn't even understand a basic concept like supply and demand, which has nothing to do with veganism. Or at least, he's so irrational in trying to undermine the cause that he doesn't make the blatant connection to it. And vegans' behaviors doesn't justify his terrible counter-arguments. When you find fault with someone's approach, you shouldn't become as irrational as they are in opposition. Oh, and there's always been a bunch of anti-veg people. The Weston A. Price Foundation has been around since 1999 making sure that there's plenty of people around to hate them and say their diets are inappropriate to humans. The Atkins group did this as well.

Those who make a peaceful revolution impossible, will make a violent revolution inevitable.Last edit: 03/09/2016 12:17

Loco   Canada. Sep 03 2016 12:31. Posts 19952


  On September 03 2016 05:27 RiKD wrote:
Ahh nice. I really enjoyed that Ted talk about the blue zones. Unfortunately, the speaker did not touch on the one in Costa Rica as I absolutely LOVE Costa Rica. Everyday was amazing. Wake up, rice, beans, salsa, CRAZY FRESH FRUIT. OMG, pineapple picked ripe from the tree in nature is MAGICAL. That is a power greater than myself. Outside on the beach, outside on a hike, outside on the river. Everyone was so friendly. A part of my subconscious is searching for ways to do the whole digital nomad thing again. Set up shop near the Renzo Gracie gym down there and live some life.

Okinawa has been on my to do list for a while. Sardinia seems awesome. I would love to go there. I would love to spend a week with the Adventists as well. Sometimes overly religious people get on my nerves but I just think with the Adventists it would be cool. I have come along way with my tolerance and understanding for sure. Definitely, no plans to visit the Westminster Baptists though.

On Rogan:

I can understand it. Eating meat and bodybuilding has been programmed into USA Culture. Hunting. I grew up on Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sylvester Stallone movies. No one ever told me they were on all sorts of drugs. I still hang around some of the macho type of people. Doing bicep curls on a camp retreat in nature asking everyone if they are a man or a mouse. Filling a plate with beef and potatoes as if it is a competition. I have been some form of this person in the past. Talking shit about bench press numbers and how many subway sandwiches I can eat as if it is some marker of masculinity. The problem is that it still is in many social spheres. Man, I could really go deep on this topic but it is not exactly what I intended to talk about...

The whole vegan thing is something Rogan is blind too. Although now apparently not as much as Nate Diaz is vegan and Joe Rogan worships fighters (and is friends with Nate Diaz). The more I am learning about veganism the more I am in danger of being the annoying vegan guy. The annoying vegan guy definitely exists. Part of it, is that many times ignorance is bliss. People love their bad faith. Getting a belief, rationalization, denial debunked is annoying. However, in everyday life most people do not want to hear about whole food, plant based diets unless they are actively seeking out ways to lose weight, remedy heart disease, or feel better. The military industrial complex does a great job at covering up the insane amount of damage done. I had no idea the amount of oil, pollution, cruelty, subsidy, ecological waste, transportation waste, political corruption and the list goes on and on the amount of fucked up shit happening. Immanuel Kant. John Rawls. Smart, ethical soil farmers. If the current system changed to healthy soil, healthy plant, healthy human the world would be a better place.

Yeah, that last paragraph if shoe horned into conversation in real life is why vegans get a bad rap. I have made some military industrial complex posts on facebook and I really think they are just a terrible idea. It is kind of like sex, politics, religion, veganism. Only appropriate time to talk about it is in Truth Discussion Thread or if someone asks about it or if the topic comes up in awake discussion.



You can read about the Costa Rica stuff here.

I also have the Blue Zones audiobooks if you want them. Arnold promotes low meat diets nowadays along with James Cameron. He's also stated he's totally fine with vegan diets and he's seen plenty of bodybuilders doing great on veg diets.

And yeah, it's difficult to talk about this topic, but it's one that is urgent to speak about. Same deal with overpopulation. It's always the elephant in the room, and you can hardly ever talk about these topics without hurting people's feelings or causing them to become hysteric or completely unreceptive. I hardly ever share anything about veganism for this reason. I value my peace of mind more than I care to try to influence others. Plant-based nutrition is easier to discuss than veganism, and also makes more sense to me to discuss for a few reasons. Veganism as an ethic is something you arrive to on your own, without the need to be convinced of it by someone else. People are also inherently selfish and you can only get their attention and interest if they have something to gain personally from the discussion. With veganism you're asking them to abandon their egocentric selves, which is too much to ask. And those who will get into debates don't do so in order to inform and improve themselves, they get into debates to score self-esteem points (with their own internal audience or the external one).

I should say (or repeat) that I just don't like using the word veganism when it comes to discussing nutrition. It's a meaningless word because it only specifies what you don't eat, which isn't going to help anyone figure out how best they can eat. You can eat a total dogshit diet as a vegan, so I could never comfortably just promote a "vegan diet". McDougall summarizes it best in the interview I posted above: it's admirable that so many vegans have the concerns that they have, but if they are hurting themselves in the process, then they are still hurting an animal--themselves--and the cause as well if people are turned off by the results of their diet. The word also carries unnecessary emotional baggage that can hinder civil discussion, and the subject of ethics doesn't need to enter the discussion unless it becomes relevant. So yeah, if you want to be the annoying guy, I think it's probably better to be the annoying whole foods, plant-based diet guy than the annoying vegan guy. Everyone has to gain from eating more plants, but hardly anyone has something to gain from witnessing the amount of harm they have been responsible for.

Those who make a peaceful revolution impossible, will make a violent revolution inevitable.Last edit: 03/09/2016 12:54

RiKD    United States. Sep 03 2016 19:51. Posts 5606

Yeah. I have always liked the concept of "attraction not promotion."

Thinking about that though if I were a billionaire I would not be against a start-up charity that influences culture. Collaborate with different people in academia and entertainment. Hire really sharp design and marketing people for anti-military industrial complex campaigns, honest journalism, positive journalism. Focus on children and high school kids and college kids. Change what is considered cool and sexy.


Mortensen8   Chad. Sep 03 2016 20:23. Posts 1761

Found the book
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzsQ...WJmYzQtNGZhYWI4ZjE0Y2Jl&sort=name


Rear naked wokeLast edit: 04/09/2016 00:21

cariadon   Estonia. Sep 03 2016 22:26. Posts 4008


  On September 03 2016 08:44 Loco wrote:
Show nested quote +



Studies showing that people have been doing X for a long time is not an argument to do X. It's a vacuous observation. It doesn't tell us anything about what is desirable or not (and how it could have been desirable in the past but how that situation has changed). It also sounds like an appeal to tradition. What you probably wanted to say is that people have been benefiting from eating meat for a long time and that therefore we should all be eating meat. If I am correct and this is your position, then that is a very vague, but also extraordinary claim which I sincerely doubt you can back up with solid research. And I say it's vague because that statement doesn't say anything about which meat or in which quantity it is helpful. If you want us to compare the diets that we both recommend and see who has the best evidence for our recommendations, then please make direct statements about what you oppose instead of vague ones like these. Which leads me to your next point...

"The fuck is your problem with protein?"

The precise issue I brought up and which RiKD is struggling with due to his past conditioning-- as you no doubt would be as well judging from your reaction-- is not about protein generally, it's about the fact that a person doesn't actually need meat and dairy to meet their protein needs. I'm saying that if you believe otherwise, you're simply uninformed (or misinformed). Just use common sense: if something is absolutely critical to our lives, then it must be easily attainable, or else we wouldn't have evolved to be the most successful species on the planet. Can you imagine us having been this successful if we had to jump through hoops to get the oxygen we need? So it is with protein. It is ubiquitous in all of the whole, natural foods we evolved to eat. And guess what, plants don't run as fast as animals. It was what we could always rely upon to meet our needs. And to use and extend the oxygen analogy further, we need a certain amount of water and a certain amount of oxygen. Any more than we need would be detrimental and could actually kill us. So it is with protein, again. I am clearly not debating the absolute importance of protein in the diet. It's about which proteins we favor consuming and in which quantity, not whether or not we need protein.

My argument is that the optimal diet is one where you get your protein from plant foods as much as possible. High animal protein diets are consistently associated with higher morbidity and mortality rates. Just recently, again, Harvard scientists came out with a study showing exact that, this time published in the highly respectable JAMA. And they really spell it out this time: "Conclusions and Relevance: High animal protein intake was positively associated with mortality and high plant protein intake was inversely associated with mortality, especially among individuals with at least 1 lifestyle risk factor. Substitution of plant protein for animal protein, especially that from processed red meat, was associated with lower mortality, suggesting the importance of protein source." Source: Association of Animal and Plant Protein Intake With All-Cause and Cause-Specific Mortality.

At least we agree on one thing: supplements are largely a waste of money with only a very few exceptions for some people.



Hello Loco, Rikd, others
lots of rabbit holes to jump down into but i'll try and keep it simple

My problem is the position against any macronutrient, in this case it happened to be protein. Protein, carbs, fat... pick your evil. I've become good buddies with all of them. I believe one should assess his/her whole diet and quality of produce. I do advocate eating protein, in moderation and following common sense. It is good to have multiple sources of protein and be reasonable with quantity. That's all i'm saying here. If you absolutely must get your protein from plant based foods then by all means, go for it. Personally i don't see the point and i'll eat whatever i please. I agree with the ballpark of protein needed and agree it is lower than most prescribe. I'd like to add that it is a good idea to spread protein intake throughout the day if possible.

I see the urge to tinker with everything to come up with the perfect meal plan or whatever but it need not go past reasonable. I'd like you to give opinion on cooking. I believe cooking your own meals teaches you a lot about the food you eat and how to nourish your body. Most don't know how restaurants cook, what proccessed foods they eat or even the quantities they are eating. If you prepare the food you eat and make an effort to keep the food real you are doing good. It may not be GTO food but its good enough.

If you must know i get fresh eggs straight from the countryside, local meat from the butchers and fish from the market. I prepare the vast majority of my own meals.


jeremy5408   United States. Sep 04 2016 02:32. Posts 122


  On September 03 2016 18:51 RiKD wrote:
Yeah. I have always liked the concept of "attraction not promotion."

Thinking about that though if I were a billionaire I would not be against a start-up charity that influences culture. Collaborate with different people in academia and entertainment. Hire really sharp design and marketing people for anti-military industrial complex campaigns, honest journalism, positive journalism. Focus on children and high school kids and college kids. Change what is considered cool and sexy.



so a real life bruce wayne type eccentric billionaire :D

to be fair we have bill gates leading the charge single handedly wiping out malaria and additionally using charity to fill in the market failure of the next gen antiobiotics for future super bugs.

and a lot of us talk about doing the right thing and moving the world in a better direction, but he's helping the dregs of the dregs of the world which probably increases aggregate utility vs providing my comfy ass with better access to information.

there's a few videos from recode that talk about the changing landscape of media over the years and how honest, positive journalism doesn't necessarily sell better. unfortunately human's vote with their money and we clearly want a different product.


Loco   Canada. Sep 04 2016 04:24. Posts 19952


  On September 03 2016 21:26 cariadon wrote:
Show nested quote +



Hello Loco, Rikd, others
lots of rabbit holes to jump down into but i'll try and keep it simple

My problem is the position against any macronutrient, in this case it happened to be protein. Protein, carbs, fat... pick your evil. I've become good buddies with all of them. I believe one should assess his/her whole diet and quality of produce. I do advocate eating protein, in moderation and following common sense. It is good to have multiple sources of protein and be reasonable with quantity. That's all i'm saying here. If you absolutely must get your protein from plant based foods then by all means, go for it. Personally i don't see the point and i'll eat whatever i please. I agree with the ballpark of protein needed and agree it is lower than most prescribe. I'd like to add that it is a good idea to spread protein intake throughout the day if possible.

I see the urge to tinker with everything to come up with the perfect meal plan or whatever but it need not go past reasonable. I'd like you to give opinion on cooking. I believe cooking your own meals teaches you a lot about the food you eat and how to nourish your body. Most don't know how restaurants cook, what proccessed foods they eat or even the quantities they are eating. If you prepare the food you eat and make an effort to keep the food real you are doing good. It may not be GTO food but its good enough.

If you must know i get fresh eggs straight from the countryside, local meat from the butchers and fish from the market. I prepare the vast majority of my own meals.



There is no "position against a macronutrient" advocated here. There is only discussion of what is necessary and what is wasteful or harmful. You have to understand the context in which I'm seemingly "attacking protein". We've been brainwashed as a society to be worried about protein. Most people believe that we have to consciously plan our meals in order to meet our protein needs, which as I have shown is complete nonsense. Food items are often marketed with their protein levels, which is hilarious to me. The average person eats twice the protein that their body can actually utilize. And of course, when people think about protein they think about meat first, because we were told in the past that meat protein was superior to plant protein, which isn't true and even though this myth has been laid to rest in the scientific literature, it's still very much alive in popular culture where people love to hear good things about their bad habits.

I am not in favor of micro-managing a diet. I don't believe in counting anything. I'm not advocating tinkering with macro-nutrients at all. When I eat food, I don't see carbs, fats and proteins. I see food. I believe in eating clean, nutrient rich whole foods until you feel satisfied. As for cooking and preparing your own meals, that's a no brainer. The more control you have over the ingredients in the food you eat, the better. But the act of cooking your own meals isn't more important than the actual foods that you choose to eat regularly. Anthony Bourdain knows a lot more about cooking than I do, but he's the one who has to take statins. Lots of people who cook almost all their meals live to eat, they don't eat to live. All I can say about this is echo Seneca when he said, omnis stultitia laborat fastidio sui-- folly is its own burden.

Those who make a peaceful revolution impossible, will make a violent revolution inevitable.Last edit: 04/09/2016 04:51

Mortensen8   Chad. Sep 04 2016 08:07. Posts 1761

lol best lecture ever

Rear naked woke 

cariadon   Estonia. Sep 04 2016 18:00. Posts 4008


  On September 04 2016 03:24 Loco wrote:
Show nested quote +



There is no "position against a macronutrient" advocated here. There is only discussion of what is necessary and what is wasteful or harmful. You have to understand the context in which I'm seemingly "attacking protein". We've been brainwashed as a society to be worried about protein. Most people believe that we have to consciously plan our meals in order to meet our protein needs, which as I have shown is complete nonsense. Food items are often marketed with their protein levels, which is hilarious to me. The average person eats twice the protein that their body can actually utilize. And of course, when people think about protein they think about meat first, because we were told in the past that meat protein was superior to plant protein, which isn't true and even though this myth has been laid to rest in the scientific literature, it's still very much alive in popular culture where people love to hear good things about their bad habits.

I am not in favor of micro-managing a diet. I don't believe in counting anything. I'm not advocating tinkering with macro-nutrients at all. When I eat food, I don't see carbs, fats and proteins. I see food. I believe in eating clean, nutrient rich whole foods until you feel satisfied. As for cooking and preparing your own meals, that's a no brainer. The more control you have over the ingredients in the food you eat, the better. But the act of cooking your own meals isn't more important than the actual foods that you choose to eat regularly. Anthony Bourdain knows a lot more about cooking than I do, but he's the one who has to take statins. Lots of people who cook almost all their meals live to eat, they don't eat to live. All I can say about this is echo Seneca when he said, omnis stultitia laborat fastidio sui-- folly is its own burden.



So you are saying plant based proteins are superior to animal protein. Or are you outright saying milk, chicken and pork is bad? If the latter i'd like to read up on some research. Research be bulshit on both sides, all in the game. Minorities can be big markets too if you can market to them specifically. I just heard the other day from a local producer there isn't much market for vegan products. The first vegan shop in my city had to close doors and move online. It speaks to people being brainwashed but it also speaks to there not being that much truth to animal protein being detrimental to ones health.


 
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