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How deep to fold kings preflop?

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HungarianGOD   . Jun 15 2015 21:45. Posts 407

Greetings,
Out of principle I usually never fold second nuts (if I'm playing in a way that makes it correct to fold second nuts I'm probably playing badly). There are some extreme circumstances where specific opponents are playing face up, since live games most people are amazingly weak.

Anyway, I had $2000 in a 9-handed 2/5 game, and got involved against the second best player at the table who had $1850. He opened to $20 UTG, there were 5 callers, and I squeezed with Kings on the button to 120. 4 bet to 300, 5 bet to 600, 6 bet jam to 1850.

In this particular case I think a fold is impossible due to the 5 callers and the juiciness of the squeeze bloating the pot and widening both of our ranges. I don't get to play 400 big blind stacks very often though, so I kept thinking about it. How deep would you guys have to be to incorporate folding KK preflop against random LIVE players? I would start considering it at around 300 bbs.

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traxamillion   United States. Jun 15 2015 23:23. Posts 10274

I've found it depends on the player but usually not folding kK. certainly no arbitrary BB limit. I have had cases where kk is a clear fold pre at as low as 100bb after an UTG limp/rr


chris   United States. Jun 16 2015 00:02. Posts 5498

I do not like the line you took pre

5 minute showers are my 8 minute abs. - Neilly 

HungarianGOD   . Jun 16 2015 01:12. Posts 407

You prefer calling the 4 bet?


TimDawg    United States. Jun 16 2015 01:44. Posts 10157

This is a pretty simple concept...

If you decide to 5bet here, you should've already made up your mind to snap off if he 6bet jams. If you do not know what to do when he 6bet jams and you think he always has AA, then your 5bet is obviously bad and thus, you should just flat his 4bet.

Obviously you called and he had AA, otherwise this thread wouldn't have been made -_-

online bob is actually a pretty smart person, not at all like the creepy fucker that sits in the sofa telling me he does nasty shit to me when im asleep - pinball 

HungarianGOD   . Jun 16 2015 01:58. Posts 407

I think this spot was easier because of all the callers and the squeeze, if he has AA good for him. I insta-called and he did have AA.


locoo   Peru. Jun 16 2015 03:43. Posts 4477

I would just call to his 4b 100% of the time with KK

edit: I shouldn't say 100% of the time, there are spots where players will call too lightly pre where I will do this, but I don't think very many people will stack off here with less than KK

bitte bitte bitte bitte bitte bitteLast edit: 16/06/2015 04:08

Stim_Abuser   United States. Jun 16 2015 08:15. Posts 7498


  On June 16 2015 00:44 TimDawg wrote:
This is a pretty simple concept...

If you decide to 5bet here, you should've already made up your mind to snap off if he 6bet jams. If you do not know what to do when he 6bet jams and you think he always has AA, then your 5bet is obviously bad and thus, you should just flat his 4bet.

Obviously you called and he had AA, otherwise this thread wouldn't have been made -_-



Yep.

There aren't many decent live players at 2/5 who are going to 6bet jam 400bb with anything other than AA. And by aren't very many I mean like less than 1%. He might 4bet light because he thinks you're squeezing, but he isn't 6bet jamming 400bb unless you've been raising the shit out of him or he's on tilt or something.

Definitely just flat the 4bet and play some poker in position.

Hey Im slinging mad volume and fat stackin benjies I dont got time for spellin n shit - skinny peteLast edit: 16/06/2015 08:17

JohnnyBologna   United States. Jun 16 2015 09:51. Posts 1393


  On June 16 2015 02:43 locoo wrote:
I would just call to his 4b 100% of the time with KK

edit: I shouldn't say 100% of the time, there are spots where players will call too lightly pre where I will do this, but I don't think very many people will stack off here with less than KK

By doing a little bit at a time, a lot can be done 

RiKD    United States. Jun 16 2015 12:39. Posts 4101

I could fold KK preflop on 3 bbs to a preflop raise if I see a guy has AA.


Artanis[Xp]   Netherlands. Jun 16 2015 13:08. Posts 4691


  On June 16 2015 11:39 RiKD wrote:
I could fold KK preflop on 3 bbs to a preflop raise if I see a guy has AA.


That sounds terrible, you're missing a great setmining opportunity.


casinocasino   Canada. Jun 16 2015 18:27. Posts 3273

Horrible 5 bet


dogmeat   Czech Republic. Jun 16 2015 19:38. Posts 6374

lets talk about postflop after flatting 4bet

ban baal 

jvilla777   Australia. Jun 16 2015 22:39. Posts 1325

I don't think live villain would stack off pre that deep with anything but AA

longple: ur missing the point! this is an attempt to get away from the bumhuntmentality! 

Jelle   Belgium. Jun 17 2015 15:36. Posts 3329

All of this is just my opinion and ur probably a much better player than me but when I read these threads I feel like you guys are technical experts who haven't adjusted to playing live at all. Your post reads almost like a hand history from an online hand, and your opponent is a screen name "Random UTG"

I stacked off 100bbs vs a very young man for 200 euros once in a live game with KK and when he flipped up his AA he stood up and looked like he was about to have a heart attack. He was so nervous he couldn't even stand to look at the board where a K surely lurked to ensure his doom. I did get lucky and hit a K which caused him to run around the entire building but it always stuck with me that he obviously couldn't have had anything else. If I would have paid attention to him before the hand, maybe talked to him a little bit, (I didn't at all even though he was right next to me) I could have figured out his roll was in play or at least that he was very uncomfortable, and I knew he was even because I knew when he sat down and with how much. Instead I looked down at omgKK and stacked off like a robot.

You can and should fold KK pre even for 100bbs vs people who have AA too often. If you're going to play 30 hands an hour let go of silly rules saying you "have to" do x just try your best to estimate their ranges and to take the best action. You are vastly superior to your opponents and should allow yourself to limp, probebet, fold sick nuts, herocall, donkbet, use imbalanced betsizes etc. You should also know stuff about your opponent, you basicly don't know anything about him/her from your post. If you don't care enough to pay attention consider playing higher stakes. Were they young or old? Female or male? Do you think they were nervous/gambling with their case money, or comfortable in the game? Were they losing or winning? Were they the type of person who bets huge when they probably have it to "avoid suckouts", or do they like to take a chance? Were they an actor trying to fool you, or a grinder who's bored out of his mind and mentally checked out of the game? Were they sociable or silent? How much time did they take before 4betting? etc etc etc


NMcNasty    United States. Jun 17 2015 18:45. Posts 1800


  On June 16 2015 18:38 dogmeat wrote:
lets talk about postflop after flatting 4bet



Yeah if anyone hasn't figured out already just calling pre doesn't exactly solve our problems. Pot will be ~700 with ~1500 effective behind. So if villain bets, then what? Call and fold turn?

In order for the call pre line to be viable villain needs to be doing either one of two things:

1. giving you massive respect and will be checking lots of flops and turns so you aren't obligated to stack off with your KK
2. will be barreling with worse than KK often enough that value picked up when you stack off makes up for losses against AA

However its frequently the case that villain will just be barreling a range that we can't really stack off to profitably simply because its too AA heavy. If that's the case, as gross as it is our best option is to just fold pre.


careface_   Canada. Jun 18 2015 00:01. Posts 784

horrible 5 bet


locoo   Peru. Jun 18 2015 14:23. Posts 4477


  On June 17 2015 17:45 NMcNasty wrote:
Show nested quote +



Yeah if anyone hasn't figured out already just calling pre doesn't exactly solve our problems. Pot will be ~700 with ~1500 effective behind. So if villain bets, then what? Call and fold turn?

In order for the call pre line to be viable villain needs to be doing either one of two things:

1. giving you massive respect and will be checking lots of flops and turns so you aren't obligated to stack off with your KK
2. will be barreling with worse than KK often enough that value picked up when you stack off makes up for losses against AA

However its frequently the case that villain will just be barreling a range that we can't really stack off to profitably simply because its too AA heavy. If that's the case, as gross as it is our best option is to just fold pre.


It's just a 4bet pre in a juicy pot, just folding KK would be pretty terrible. There has to be some bluffs from the restealer in his range or maybe QQ-JJ or AK type hands that for some reason he wants to play heads up with but won't stack off. I've gotten 4bet with AK before live in similar situation vs a fish-reg so it's not unheard of. We don't need to stack off on every board, we could potentially bluff some run outs if villain is naive enough.

bitte bitte bitte bitte bitte bitte 

NMcNasty    United States. Jun 18 2015 16:06. Posts 1800


  On June 18 2015 13:23 locoo wrote:
We don't need to stack off on every board, we could potentially bluff some run outs if villain is naive enough.



Its an SPR of about 2 postflop. The idea that we're calling kings to bluff out aces on some boards with an SPR of 2 is completely absurd. On any non-ace non-king board we basically have 4 options:

1. fold flop
2. shove flop
3. call flop / call turn
4. call flop / fold turn

All I'm saying is "just call pre" isn't really an answer to the OP till you pick one of the above. Due to the passiveness of live players, especially in deep pots, its entirely possible all of the above will suck and folding pre is the best way to go.


JohnnyBologna   United States. Jun 18 2015 17:57. Posts 1393

Folding kings pre is a mistake as sometimes you have best hand.

Sometimes it will be checked to you after he 4 bets.

As for postflop play you just gotta go by your read. Is he willing to barrell off AK after you smooth called his 4 bet? Cuz you can have aces too.

Is he shoving worse? These are all villain dependent so there is no definitive answer.

By doing a little bit at a time, a lot can be done 

 
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