this is kinda bad

On May 15 2012 02:38 n0rthf4ce wrote: this is kinda bad

Would you call the 3bet on flop and shove safe turns?

On May 15 2012 02:38 n0rthf4ce wrote: this is kinda bad

Ok. Can you tell me what line to take then? Call and get it in on which turns? Or just fold it on flop (seems bad but I dunno)?

If it was me this deep I would just call the flop cbet. Reason: Really deep and wheter he calls or raises we are in a bad spot due to the fact that his hand-ranges usually have a lot of equity. If turn is a blank like a 3o I would consider raising his turnbet. If he calls I probably fold if he leads spade rivers.

I think the basic reason why it is not good to get it in on flop is that you are never in good shape vs his "getting it in" range. You can probably do some calcs but think about the overpairs+fd+gs or openender+fd or in this case his set (even if that seems unlikely that he has). It is better to use position and try to build the pot in situations where you have a greater equity edge against his range.

On May 15 2012 06:20 Zanjong wrote: If it was me this deep I would just call the flop cbet. Reason: Really deep and wheter he calls or raises we are in a bad spot due to the fact that his hand-ranges usually have a lot of equity. If turn is a blank like a 3o I would consider raising his turnbet. If he calls I probably fold if he leads spade rivers. I think the basic reason why it is not good to get it in on flop is that you are never in good shape vs his "getting it in" range. You can probably do some calcs but think about the overpairs+fd+gs or openender+fd or in this case his set (even if that seems unlikely that he has). It is better to use position and try to build the pot in situations where you have a greater equity edge against his range.

Call flop and raise on a blank turn is fine but I think you would need to balance between that line and raising flop with hands like these?

On May 15 2012 06:26 Nazgul wrote: Show nested quote + On May 15 2012 06:20 Zanjong wrote: If it was me this deep I would just call the flop cbet. Reason: Really deep and wheter he calls or raises we are in a bad spot due to the fact that his hand-ranges usually have a lot of equity. If turn is a blank like a 3o I would consider raising his turnbet. If he calls I probably fold if he leads spade rivers. I think the basic reason why it is not good to get it in on flop is that you are never in good shape vs his "getting it in" range. You can probably do some calcs but think about the overpairs+fd+gs or openender+fd or in this case his set (even if that seems unlikely that he has). It is better to use position and try to build the pot in situations where you have a greater equity edge against his range. Call flop and checkraise on a blank turn is fine but I think you would need to balance between that line and checkraising flop with hands like these?

Joe is on the button this hand. I am just a mid-stakes player but I have talked to really good players about 2pair hands and seems like consensus is that one should be careful in building pots where we have to guess on many turns. In this hand that would be spades/AKQJ/9/7/6. If we are building a really big pot and only a T/8/5/4/3 are really good for us then I think we will fair pretty bad.

I have seen Galfond touch on this subject in his videos too. Like not raising A865 on A62 even if our hands is best 90% of the time - merely because on all turns we are getting in sticky spots if we face alot of pressure. In a very aggressive games where we are comfortable getting it in more liberally then I guess this argumentation is little less relevant.

i'm surprised you didn't 4bet pre this deep...

naked top2 is really not as good as it looks in PLO, esp 400bb deep, just flat and play a turn, of course most turns suck but that's something we're gonna have to deal with, and we're in pos so thats not as bad as it sounds.

I think villain's stackoff is bad as well ;o. Naked bottom set 400bb deep against a get-in range of TTXX, 88XX, big rundowns+FD, Ahi FD with OESD or something and apparently top 2 which should not get it in on this flop.

This deep stacking off with top 2 is pretty horrible though, but that's already been mentioned. 100bb deep it's fine obviously, though I raise/call sometimes and wait for a safe turn because when they 3 bet they usually have a semibig/big draw and you can fold a lot of turns.

raise/call flop, ai on blank turn (fold on flush, prob on 2).
you're up against AA+NFD type hands, TP+NFD, wrap+Fd, T8 (which is almost always freerolling you).
You can safely fold on aa flush card against such range.

if hes 3 betting 15%+ you should 4 bet bluff this hand always.