Submitted by : Daut

PokerStars Game #6506688655: Hold'em No Limit ($2/$4) - 2006/10/03 - 15:58:12 (ET)
Table 'Ningxia' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: bouh ($532 in chips)
Seat 3: Castorian ($240 in chips)
Seat 4: browerkid ($396 in chips)
Seat 5: Daut44 ($518.10 in chips)
Seat 6: cattsm ($110.40 in chips)
Daut44: posts small blind $2
cattsm: posts big blind $4
Castorian: posts big blind $4

Holecards
Dealt to Daut44
bouh: calls $4
Castorian: checks
browerkid: folds
Daut44: calls $2
cattsm: checks

Flop (Pot : $16)

   
Daut44: bets $12
cattsm: folds
beaver47 joins the table at seat #2
bouh: raises $20 to $32
Castorian: folds
Daut44: calls $20

Turn (Pot : $80)

   
Daut44: checks
bouh: bets $68
Daut44: folds
bouh collected $78 from pot
bouh: doesn't show hand

Summary
Total pot $80 | Rake $2
Board  
Seat 1: bouh collected ($78)
Seat 3: Castorian folded on the Flop
Seat 4: browerkid (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Daut44 (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 6: cattsm (big blind) folded on the Flop

good fold

nice fold sir

????????? CALL

i thought this was fairly straightforward, but there are a few interesting key points in it.

rhaegar told me he would check/call the flop. i considered it, but against the other 2 players in the hand, i was going to 3bet all in for sure. against bouh, a pretty solid regular, no way. which line do you guys prefer? does anyone actually 3bet the flop against a regular? i think its suicide but maybe some of you would.

does anyone ever check call the turn? i think his most likely hands are definitely 55 77, with an outside shot at 78 or maybe some random other draws like 66. the problem is, i dont have odds to hit my flush, if i hit 2 pair its probably not good, if i hit trips thats probably not good, so if im calling the turn do you think it would be smart to bluff a 4 or 9 river (especially when he could have a 6)? how about if i hit my flush. how much do i frontbet?

i really thought this was an easy fold but a few people have asked me about this hand so i thought id put it up for discussion.

you know you can edit your own posts

On October 03 2006 14:37 TalentedTom wrote: ????????? CALL

u cannot make this call OOP

Stacks are decent size... I would take this hand to war. In my books this is a 100% call, I can't see myself folding this...

u can only call if 8 and A are outs and in this case bigballs does not think they are and so u have to fold.

edit: unless u can get it allin on a spade river which i doubt u can

man i go to war on flop all day with this just get that shit in plus he doesnt have 88

yeah, thor i agree - this is such a weak and maybe -ev fold.

if your goal is to "look for a better spot" your giving up a lot of equity by folding hands like this

thor why would u wanna go broke in this unraised pot with a pair of 8's and a flush draw? any hand thats calling turn here has us murdered (4-6,6-9,7-8,5-7, 5-5, 7-7, any combo 2spades+pair etcetc). Do you do this for image reasons or do you think we can push him off a better hand (7-8 or 5-7)? Thx for ur help .

Tom would you consider pushing this in on the turn or flatcalling?

you dont know his hand range... + your not going broke your just being asked to commit $68 more - given stack sizes + bet size (it's only a 17bb bet) this is a 100% no brainer

On another note I'm almost 100% sure you get paid if you hit, bouh does not have the displine to lay down hands he will play JJ+ all in preflop. I'm 100% sure if you make a flush here you can lead out for pot and expect at least a call (if not a reraise). This guy is a complete fish

tom he limped utg and as a decent regular i doubt hes doing that without a pocket pair or suited connector. so i suppose im losing equity if he has T9s, but he often has a set here i think.

taking it to war on the flop is a lot lot better than calling the turn though. but man, now im all screwed up, i only have one rule in this world and its that thorladen is never wrong

im also very curious to hear what thor has to say on this :o

ok good questions:

1you go to war cuz i might be way ahead
2.sometimes you get folds when your behind
3.you play your sets same way and then they have to decide if they want a slight edge against this hand and drawing virtually dead against 88
4.I love to suck out and you making a bet against a set thats bad but not so awful that u cant stand it
5.Its important to show gamble

probably more reasons but for now thats good

I think #5 is very important - going in as a underdog from time to time is excellent for your long term image. People will be more inclined to give you action. Maybe that's why my analysis of this player is a complete fish

well thor said he goes to war on flop all day with this..

how do we go to war? do we 3 bet flop push turn (seems a bit of an excessive overbet)? do we c/r turn allin (seems excessive still)? it just seems that in an unraised pot like this and being OOP, its extremely difficult to play this hand. do we c/c flop and c/c turn and then lead river when we hit 8/A/spade?

go to war on FLOP

im such a pansy in unraised pots :<

I'd pretty much play this like bigballs did in an unraised pot :/

Pushing in this pot I think you are losing money for a fact. You might win more by having a better image though.

im so confused who do i listen to nazgul or thor T_T

lol shit, now my heart is torn in two..

i dont know that player but how can you narrow his range THIS much to a set?

I mean i think theres always a 5-10% the player is bluffing (unless hes a total nit) and he could be mixing up his play limping a big pair from time to time. he could even do it with another flush draw etc straight draw etc.

and as tom said if you hit river you likely get paid off. If this player folds sets as soon as a scare card come you should exploit him massively -_-

OK I see this hand needs more detail. I understand I dont play at this limit and higher limits the range would be much wider for the villain, but here goes:


If we take the simplist(sp?) of nits and give him the most obv range for his actions which is 77,66,55, and 109ss against that basic range our hand is 54.079%
lets take it one step further and say this nit(wit) knows what we know that its an unraised pot and dont go broke in an unraised pot he just might fold bottom set.

Keep in mind that this is 6 max and in my opinion the way it was played i would love to play against all day.

Now take that into account with some of the other reasons I already posted and ergo make a very hard reraise on the flop but please Im begging you,
do not do this against me, just call and fold and we can be friends.

Thor

wow ok so thorladen comes in and lays the smackdown
gg thread

so aggressive T_T

On October 04 2006 18:04 thorladen wrote: OK I see this hand needs more detail. I understand I dont play at this limit and higher limits the range would be much wider for the villain, but here goes: If we take the simplist(sp?) of nits and give him the most obv range for his actions which is 77,66,55, and 109ss against that basic range our hand is 54.079% lets take it one step further and say this nit(wit) knows what we know that its an unraised pot and dont go broke in an unraised pot he just might fold bottom set. Keep in mind that this is 6 max and in my opinion the way it was played i would love to play against all day. Now take that into account with some of the other reasons I already posted and ergo make a very hard reraise on the flop but please Im begging you, do not do this against me, just call and fold and we can be friends. Thor

wow nice.

meh, i still disagree with it.

that calculation gives the probability of him having 66 equal to the probability he has 77 or 55 (combined) because there are 6 ways to hold 66 and 3 ways each to hold 77 and 55, and i really think its much much much less likely he has 66 here id say in order of likelihood, he has 55/77, 78, AA, 66, T9spades, and random other semi bluffs like 67 or something thrown in with 66 and T9s. i really think im behind his range based on the probability he has each hand, plus the fact that if i reraise potsize, its only to like 110, and im placed in a really awkward position if he flats or something. its just really hard being oop here, i cant like push all in for 8x the pot and expect that to be a profitable maneuver.

Heres my conv. with Bushman on this hand: http://www.liquidpoker.net/information/f/86126/1/As_8s_by_BigBalls.html
sw says:
2 pages of comments
Bushman says:
i dont need to read all that
Bushman says:
id reraise huge
Bushman says:
on flop
Bushman says:
u know that
sw says:
how bout thaqt limped pot?
sw says:
i would too obv
sw says:
naz disagrees
Bushman says:
its fuckin 6 max
sw says:
i thk its auto
sw says:
yeh
Bushman says:
u be pasive like that
Bushman says:
and get run over
sw says:
and even if he has set u not losign alot
Bushman says:
alllllllllll day
Bushman says:
i wish people folded that vs me
Bushman says:
lol
sw says:
yeh me too

so you reraise to say 110 and obv call if he pushes, but if he flat calls and the turn bricks (which it will 75%) what do you do? you each have about 285 left, and the pot is 240.

You and bushman don't know nutpeddle power on 2/4 ~~! Bouh is a regular and this being an unraised pot I think A8s gets stacked too often. Pushing/raising isn't bad but it will, like I said, not be for value on this hand. It's a solid hand but in the long run it loses money. Image is what will have to make you $$ from this.

pussssssssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Ok last points on this for me (I hope)

BB u dont like my range I say if you give him his full range you are even more of a favorite,
You say that if u raise to a normal amt what do u do on blank(i personally dont mind that position) but if u dont like it just push this hand and 888 or mid set all the time and you dont have to worry about it. I am confident that if you just play the hand by pushing here and the top sets you will show greater profitablility in any game(dont forget they do fold alot)

If you still disagree ill still talk to u on msn


Thor

so im guessing if he re-raises huge on flopand gets flatcalled, the move no matter what falls on turn is push ?

bouh is nitty as shit, its almost 100% he has at LEAST a set

im usually for a push as much as tom and thor are saying, but seriously vs bouh i might even lay this down...

i think this was a good fold

I think the combination of: unraised pot / regular player (bouh spefically) / 2/4 (nutpeddling regulars) means you should play it like BigBalls did. All three of those factors work out badly for you. If only one of those would be missing it's an auto-push, or reraise, whatever.

I don't like it anymore than anyone else but there have to be plenty of exceptions when you DON'T push pair+flush draw. This is one of them in my opinion.

He probably got QQ,KK,AA, don't you think ?

question: does bouh actually makes money? i dont see how u can profit playing nitty like this

On October 04 2006 20:21 Nazgul wrote: I think the combination of: unraised pot / regular player (bouh spefically) / 2/4 (nutpeddling regulars) means you should play it like BigBalls did. All three of those factors work out badly for you. If only one of those would be missing it's an auto-push, or reraise, whatever. I don't like it anymore than anyone else but there have to be plenty of exceptions when you DON'T push pair+flush draw. This is one of them in my opinion.

I agree, if it was raised, I would definately push though.

On October 04 2006 20:24 Floofy wrote: question: does bouh actually makes money? i dont see how u can profit playing nitty like this

He must make some money. He's a 'donk crushing regular', not a 'good regular'.

On October 04 2006 20:22 JinKazama23 wrote: He probably got QQ,KK,AA, don't you think ?

good god i hope your kidding

Get used to those kinds of comments from him nate I agree with straate.. Bouh is nitty as hell I think fold is good.
Oh and it's easy to make money at 400nl playing 15/10 rockstyle or something. There are plenty of retards, it's just a matter of avoiding the regs

On October 04 2006 18:36 BigBalls wrote: that calculation gives the probability of him having 66 equal to the probability he has 77 or 55 (combined) because there are 6 ways to hold 66 and 3 ways each to hold 77 and 55, and i really think its much much much less likely he has 66 here

Negative.
The 54.08% equity on flop with 77,66,55,Ts9s DOES include that there are only 3 ways to hold 66 for him.

i would flat call turn

i would shut up

why would it catyoul
there are 6 ways for him to have 66 and 3 ways to have 77/55 and 1 way to have T9s

On October 04 2006 21:15 GoodKarma wrote: playing 15/10 rockstyle or something.

what exactly is this 15/10 rockstyle u speak of , u mean only playing top15/10 hands or what

good fold. you were probably only drawing to your nut flush. Im sure he already had his straight made.

On October 05 2006 09:07 BigBalls wrote: why would it catyoul there are 6 ways for him to have 66 and 3 ways to have 77/55 and 1 way to have T9s

Nevermind, I had misread your post :o

id play it the same

On October 05 2006 09:46 FunkMastaJ wrote: [removed quote within quote] what exactly is this 15/10 rockstyle u speak of , u mean only playing top15/10 hands or what

it means 15% vpip, 10% pfr

On October 05 2006 10:01 Future[LighT] wrote: good fold. you were probably only drawing to your nut flush. Im sure he already had his straight made.

he doesn't limp 96 or 64 UTG in 6max.

repop flop to 130

bouh is a very very tight player on 2/4 6max.. i would hate to be in a situation like this vs him.

I have to say it seems right the way bigballs played this hand, but i would still call that turn bet to see the river lol

Well this is very simple to me, if you decide to play this kind of hand, and you flop 1 of the best flops possible for you, you're required to go for it. I'd say, if you chicken out from this hand, don't play these kinda hands at all.

agree with viceroy-_-.
edit: before i saw it was an unraised pot, i dont know how i missed that, i automatically assumed it was a raised pot.
in this case, id play this carefully vs someone as tight as the villain has been described to be.

so, actually, i agree with the careful approach.

On October 07 2006 08:25 Vic3Roy wrote: Well this is very simple to me, if you decide to play this kind of hand, and you flop 1 of the best flops possible for you, you're required to go for it. I'd say, if you chicken out from this hand, don't play these kinda hands at all.

YEAH! YOU TELL 'EM!

Nevermind the fact that it's the 7th best hand on this flop in a limped pot against a tight regular.

On October 04 2006 20:22 JinKazama23 wrote: He probably got QQ,KK,AA, don't you think ?

PF:
bouh: calls $4
Castorian: checks
browerkid: folds
Daut44: calls $2
cattsm: checks


Call, UTG, with 2 players getting in free, and spectacular odds to the 3rd?

This from a tight regular? Does he really want to play his AA KK QQ 4 handed? I sincerily doubt it. I suppose there might be a TINY chance that he has AA, but no way KK or QQ or even JJ.

He has a medium pair almost certianly.

the action in the hand doesn't seem to me that you can put a very narrow range on him, but if you know him well enough then i suppose you can stick to a fairly specific read. being oop doesn't help any either

lolllllll BOUH. you are behind a set so you played it perfectly against BOUH imo. i totally see where thorladen is coming from, but this is BOUH. i havent played 2/4 in so long yet still remember the inSANE nittiness of BOUH. this is always a set and you're probably not making him fold his set enough to overcome the huge equity his extremely limited range has on you. and its probably not worth metagame points either because bouh doesnt make adaptations, he only has 1 gear and that's nit. i think he may be a bot that took 10 minutes to code, if i remember his playing style correctly....



rofl bouh!