10 10 vs short stack nl100

http://www.liquidpoker.net/h/706074

I am curious what the best line is in such a situation. I know practically nothing of villain, this is like the 3rd or 4th hand.

Now before you say : what on earth is so difficult here we simply want to get all the money in in any way possible. Overcards come practically every time, and in this case it is VERY possible he could have a king after he calls my cbet. So what now? The question becomes - what on earth do i beat(in most cases obviously.. not this one because he had 87o)? I beat an 8 or 99 /lower pairs but most likely its always a king when he flats the flop imo since its more unlikely an 8 calls a 3bet especially with these stack sizes.

So overall i am wondering - should i even 3bet in such a case preflop? because if i do i practically commit myself 100% on any flop... and it in some way feels spewy to just fire twice and basically HOPE he has no King here...(and every time he does i get stacked).

so again - based on his stack... what is best line preflop and i guess on a flop like this? I only feel like i get called by better(and when i do i have 100% no choice but to ship the turn which is a relatively decent size of his original stack - like 1/3 of it).

3bet bigger pre to like 8 and shove almost any flop besides like the 3 broadway card flops imo

or just go all in preflop. you're obviously way ahead of his range and you're still probably ahead a lot when called.

cuz TT is pretty close to the nuts for like 20bbs HU

if you think he's not calling on a K high flop with a bare ace or basically any pair or gutshot draw, etc...

lol

i think floating any ace is 100% horrible here are you kidding? lol -_-

i think if he has any piece of this board he has to shove if he thinks ill fold or that he can win otherwise flatting can only be good if he has a King in my eyes. I could be wrong and i might be since i cant give alot of these people credit for thinking that deep, but at the same time i think its also stupid to call anything but Kx in a 3bet pot(for his calling range on the flop i mean) so..

i also think open shoving preflop is bad.. getting absolutely no value like that.

huh? whatever play YOU feel is stupid for the villain to make is completely irrelevant

it's not like he's going to make a certain play because YOU think it's the right move nor will he not make a certain play because YOU think it's 100% horrible or stupid...

the hand is pretty simple. he's a huge fish and a pair of tens is a pretty fckin strong hand on a Kxx board for like 20bbs deep with 13bbs already in the pot. get the money in, and it's easier to do that by 3betting a little bigger and just shoving almost any flop. 2/3 of the time he fails to pair up, and even when he hits a pair 1/3 of the time, your pair of tens can beat it often. thus big reraise pre shove flop is definitely a +EV play.

and no... you don't only get called by better on a Kxx flop when you bet TT. that's an insane assumption.

btw i am curious about this spot in general, not just vs this guy. Vs this guy i could sense even after only a few hands that he was retarded. He raised like 5x preflop and open shoved another flop.

In general though i think this spot is interesting with a pair of 10's especially when they flat a flop like that.

just reraise bigger pre and shove flop

it's not like this spot is ever going to come up vs. anyone who has any idea what he's doing

I play more tables so i just easily press ai and get called by j5o here

newblish, it's good that you're thinking about spots where others just have a standard line. I like that you're posting this.

Anyways, if you're committed on any flop, that does not mean that you stop playing poker.

Think "what is the best way to make the most money". If you're already committed, think about what is the best way to get him to give you money with his whole range of hands. In particular, your flop bet size gave him no room to bluff or float.

I would recommend betting 5$ and shoving or checkcalling every turn.

8 on flop
rest on turn

or bet small to give him room for a bluf

or shove the flop

u pick one, whatever u do dont fold

jam preflop

seriously though make life easy and just shove pre. It is massively +ev and u stack some hands that might actually find folds seeing a flop (22 calls ur 3bet but doesnt want to stack on aqk etc w/e

you get this in: if you think he shoves more if checked to than calls if you shove, you check, otherwise shove.

you are committed to stack off if he does have a K here, but what you can control is manipulating him to stack off with as wide of a range as possible

you reraise with TT here for value, because he will be calling you with Ax/Kx, lower pocket pairs

i would reraise smaller even, just to ensure a call, because TT is just obliterating his range (notice how he called with 89o, which you are 80% vs. would you have wanted him to fold pre?)

on this flop, bet something 6, shove the turn

if you think he will only call you with a K vs a flop and turn shove, then u should be taking this line as a bluff and getting him to fold everything but Kx. DUCY?

don't fucking shove pre that is awful, shove is DEF. +ev but not the most +ev play

if you shove here, he folds his trash. the shove is only good because 20bb shortstacking fish will make the larger mistake of calling with trash sometimes (WHICH DOES NOT MAKE THE SHOVE CORRECT)

give me a green star

also newblish lets play hu 2 table, whats ur nick on ftp

attempted hijack - will make my own

He is calling a shove with any Ax,most Kx and all pairs, he will most likely fold tho once he missed the flop w Ax,Kx and might fold a low pp if the flop is all overs and when the flop comes AQx what do we do¿? bet/call? c/f c/c ?? and you dont know if he is calling 89off like he did here even to a small raise, i really cant think of many hands we want to keep in other than that and expect more value from postflop.

you are overthinking bro
There is nothing to think in this hand actually
You have TT you raise pre
He call
You cbet a decent flop
He call
You are committed
You put him all in
Thats all

Also fish LOVE to float flop with ANY TWO
So him calling your cbet mean nothing
I always put it in on turn and expect to have the best hand

On June 16 2009 14:22 Newblish wrote: i think floating any ace is 100% horrible here are you kidding? lol -_- i think if he has any piece of this board he has to shove if he thinks ill fold or that he can win otherwise flatting can only be good if he has a King in my eyes. I could be wrong and i might be since i cant give alot of these people credit for thinking that deep, but at the same time i think its also stupid to call anything but Kx in a 3bet pot(for his calling range on the flop i mean) so.. i also think open shoving preflop is bad.. getting absolutely no value like that.

Wait..
Do you think this guy is good?
Do you think peoples are good?
Yeah floating an ace is horrible...actually if he have an ace worth a preflop call he should have shoved pre
BUT HE SUX
PEOPLE ARE BAD AND KEEP DOING SOMES RETARDED THINGS
Stop thinking everyone play like you
Stop thinking that others players THINK THEY DONT
So yeah hes claling flop with A high or a gutshot or bottom pair or w/e shit he have
He call flop any 2 very often

lol 20bb villain

why is this a topic?

On June 18 2009 09:05 Twisted wrote: lol 20bb villain why is this a topic?

why do you take your time to comment?

Ok,

My best assumption is to have just bet the flop a little smaller to give the guy room to bluff shove any 2 and then just get rest in on any turn if he does decide to flat. Its pretty simple, the whole problem was simply putting him on a range for flatting(which i felt most smart thinking opponents could only do here if they had a K). Obviously of course i never assumed that he was a deep thinker or w/e but we cant just dismiss this shit.. thats why this is a thread. Bewcause ultimately just saying "im committed" when he shows you Kx can still suck even if hes short.

This btw is a general idea i wanted to discuss in all situations with any medium PP. Where is the line to 3bet vs short stack? With 77/88/99/1010 we are always going to see overcards.. and to just say "well im practically committed on lots of flops" seems REAL spewy.

anyway, thanks for input. Though i guess it was a bit overanalyzed

On June 18 2009 09:05 Twisted wrote: lol 20bb villain why is this a topic?

This was my initial thought lol

on a range for flatting(which i felt most smart thinking opponents could only do here if they had a K)

that doesn't mean that they are a smart thinking opponent - it just means they think on level 1, just like you do