5-10 NL on ipoker. Villain's line is rly weird. - Page 2

On October 17 2008 11:55 Twisted wrote: Show nested quote + On October 17 2008 06:50 [vital]Myth wrote: why do you say "i can't check flop" when you can't comfortably get allin anyway? makes no sense you check flop for pot control unless you want to play for stacks in which case you should call and not make a thread I'd rather pot control on the turn than on the flop. I hate giving up control of the pot.

Erwinator hit it on the head imo.

sure there can be a wierd metagame where person only checkraises and never check/calls with worse but all things said id rather pot control turns on boards like these.

as a standerd anyway. i do, do it sometimes i guess ;0

giving up control is fine, you get him to bluff nonsense and win more money sometimes

yeah "giving up control" is pretty irrelevant here, you're in position and the preflop aggressor checked to you on the flop and your hand has pretty good showdown potential. i'm having trouble making any sense of being afraid of "giving up control" on the flop. for one, we never had control to begin with. but more importantly, what is he gonna do on the turn that makes us say "aw, shoot, i knew i shoulda bet the dang flop!!" ... ?

Bet the Ace OR Kang thats coming Obviously

Cuz I hate giving free cards.. duh? and he might float our bet with AK and stuff so we gain value by betting the flop? Or he might think his A high is good still on the flop because we could be betting any 2 here? How do we not have control of the pot when this nit checks to us? I think checking the flop makes the hand harder to play and I don't want to focus on making my decisions harder just for the sake of gaining a percentage of EV or whatever the fuck.

If a Q comes on the turn and he checks again, do you check behind again? Seriously you guys are advocating making this hand fucked up to play. Bet flop take it down, if he calls slow down whatever. We can still check behind on the turn and call a river bet =[. That's using position, not checking the flop behind and giving his KQ a free card or w/e. Besides if he has some showdown hand like toppair here on the flop we could get some value out of it on the flop, if a scarecard rolls off on the turn we kill any action or we get outdrawn.

Pretty irrelevant discussion anyway considering how the hand went down.

On October 17 2008 06:50 [vital]Myth wrote: why do you say "i can't check flop" when you can't comfortably get allin anyway? makes no sense you check flop for pot control unless you want to play for stacks in which case you should call and not make a thread

this is a dumb statement anyway

if you aren't comfortable getting it allin you can check behind on the turn and re-evaluate. It's a small pot on the flop and by betting we aren't playing for stacks wtf.

On October 18 2008 13:27 [vital]Myth wrote: yeah "giving up control" is pretty irrelevant here, you're in position and the preflop aggressor checked to you on the flop and your hand has pretty good showdown potential. i'm having trouble making any sense of being afraid of "giving up control" on the flop. for one, we never had control to begin with. but more importantly, what is he gonna do on the turn that makes us say "aw, shoot, i knew i shoulda bet the dang flop!!" ... ?

checking down an overpair on a drawy board because it has good showdown value wtf

weak/tight ftw

twisted sounds like you might have range balancing/action balancing problems with your approach.

a lot of what you say is true and obviously a bet is the standard, but you are going to get exploited by good players if you refuse to do things like check behind this flop with overpairs sometimes

that being said id bet flop check turn as my standard line here for most of the reasons twisted said

On October 18 2008 21:04 Twisted wrote: Show nested quote + On October 18 2008 13:27 [vital]Myth wrote: yeah "giving up control" is pretty irrelevant here, you're in position and the preflop aggressor checked to you on the flop and your hand has pretty good showdown potential. i'm having trouble making any sense of being afraid of "giving up control" on the flop. for one, we never had control to begin with. but more importantly, what is he gonna do on the turn that makes us say "aw, shoot, i knew i shoulda bet the dang flop!!" ... ? checking down an overpair on a drawy board because it has good showdown value wtf weak/tight ftw

i'm not trying to check it down, i'm choosing to pot control the flop and bet turn/river instead of betting the flop and pot controlling the turn. what i'm saying is that it doesn't make sense to be horrified at the idea of checking the flop, but be completely comfortable betting the flop and checking the turn. i mean wtf, "i don't like giving free cards" but i'll check behind on the turn... ?

i'm not at all saying that betting the flop is bad, i'm saying it makes no sense to be like "wtf NO LOL NEVER CHECK FLOP" if you're gonna be planning on pot controlling the turn a lot anyway

and personally i prefer checking the flop and proceeding appropriately rather than betting the flop planning to give free cards on the turn, both are similar lines though

On October 18 2008 17:30 Rekrul wrote: Bet the Ace OR Kang thats coming Obviously

lolllllllllll

lol anyway to reiterate, i was never trying to say betting the flop was terrible, i was ONLY saying that the idea of thinking that it's completely unacceptable to check the flop doesn't make sense because checking the flop then betting turn/river is pretty similar to betting the flop and pot controlling the turn then deciding on the river

once again, twisted, i am not saying that betting the flop and proceeding cautiously is a bad plan. i'm only pointing out that it's a fairly similar plan to checking the flop and proceeding appropriately, and i make that claim for the reasons i stated

eh actually i do prefer just betting the flop to take it down vs somebody i view as quite tight also

betting flop is only troublesome if we expect to get owned by check/raises, check/call-leads, and other forms of traps and crazy shit from some kinda monster player. anyway my whole point was only that i don't think checking the flop is much different from betting the flop then proceeding cautiously, but looking back at this hand/read i do prefer to bet flop also

Yea I was a little bit tilted last night lol, was kinda wasted so I might seem a bit abrassive in my posts there, sorry (saturday night and all, just got home from excessive drinking) .

I see your point, just against this player as far as I know him I would always bet the flop and in a vacuum as well. If I have some strange dynamic going on a check once in a while is good too and I must admit that I do take that line a lot with hands like toppair or small overpairs. This is only against the most aggressive players though who always try to move people off their hands.

Thing is, when topics like these get posted, I prefer to tell others to do the thing that's best in that particular situation against a player they know nothing about and that's a bet on the flop imo. When someone else thinks checking behind is better I'd say that could only be better if we have some sick metagame going. Because for whatever it's worth, I'd also bet my air hands that have little or no showdown value but good equity (QJs, gutshots, flush draws w/e) against this guy a lot on this flop.

can u explain one more time Myth?
as played caw

Given that villain's id is a character from the wire + your stats I have him stereotyped as a nit from the 4 forums.

His line is sick... don't think i've ever seen that line before heh. Usually they just chk/call you down or less frequently lead the turn. Checking the turn seems results oriented to me... loses too much value IMO.

i play with him a lot and would be very surprised if I see a monster here other than 66, most likely A4,A3,A5,45 of diamonds or 87 or 89dd, ur line is great and u have to call turn

on ur 2nd hand i dont like betting so big vs this tight player, he is either trapping or not gonna pay so big with a worse hand anyway, id go for like 100$ and INSTA fold to a raise

Villain is spew monkey from what I have seen