Arbeiten et trabajo - Page 2

On June 02 2018 07:56 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On June 02 2018 04:49 bigredhoss wrote:   On June 01 2018 02:50 RiKD wrote: Everyone should fucking organize.   On June 01 2018 19:25 RiKD wrote: Let's ORGANIZE! So, yeah, I am going to be unhappy and disobedient and organize if I can and not get run over in these negotiation man. What initiatives have you taken to "organize"? Give the fucking guy a break, geez. What's the purpose of this kind of cynicism? He's just learned a bunch of stuff and he's venting. He doesn't have a job right now but in the future he could organize with his coworkers to have better working conditions. It's not something to be cynical about, it happens all the time. The employees of my favorite restaurant in Montreal are doing it right now.

I don't think my comment was that harsh, but maybe you're reacting to the perception of people piling on in this blogpost. I don't have anything against organizing for better working conditions in situations where it's warranted.

A problem I (and I'm guessing other people) have reading Rik's blogs is our real-life priors. I know too many people who are simply lazy, and use whatever rationale is most convenient to justify their laziness. Does that mean Rik is lazy? No, but it's enough to make me cynical when reading his posts. I don't even think being lazy is the worst quality in the world, but being delusional about it probably isn't healthy.

I actually don't know the answer to the question I asked him re: organizing since he hasn't responded yet. But if the answer is 'nothing', despite being something he keeps repeating and professing to care about, it becomes harder to buy that his primary reason for being unemployed is moral/philosophical opposition to corporations (rather than being lazy).

I also think there's a lot of cognitive dissonance when he says something like this:

I've had people get kind of pissed at me that I am just sort of lounging around on the internet and reading books. What is so wrong with that? I am spending my time on ends in itself. That is a pure way of living.

while there's a major theme of discontent and internal conflict in most of his blogs. When you add in his constant mentioning of his big PLO run and his important previous job, it just comes off as someone whose will and ego have been broken and he doesn't really know what to do about it. I mean did you see the blog where he posted a bunch of art that many people would obviously find beautiful, and made the comment that people would probably have to be 'hyper open-minded' like him to appreciate it? He's desperate to find a reason to feel special.

There's obviously at least some merit to his ideas, the question is whether it's enough to justify his lack of action. Real life is messy. Only he can know how much internal strife attempting to kowtow to the 'masters' would cause him.

If you admit to having read his blogs then you also admit to knowing he hasn't "made efforts to organize" so your post was a rhetorical question implying that his main problem is laziness. I just don't see what it's supposed to accomplish outside of ridiculing the guy.

I actually don't know the answer to the question I asked him re: organizing since he hasn't responded yet. But if the answer is 'nothing', despite being something he keeps repeating and professing to care about, it becomes harder to buy that his primary reason for being unemployed is moral/philosophical opposition to corporations (rather than being lazy).

It's a bullshit question, you can't organize alone and you know he doesn't have a job. He has only been talking about this for a couple weeks yet you act like he has been deluding himself for years over this idea of organizing which he's not following up with. Also, this is just really unsophisticated either/or logic. Human motivation isn't reducible to "either you do X like everyone else or you're lazy".

I don't see any cognitive dissonance involved in the part you quoted. It is true that people who work jobs they hate will envy people who aren't working and that envy is often expressed through frustration. They necessarily assume that this is a positive freedom without taking into account exactly what this means for the mental health of the person who is socially excluded and who has all this time on their hands. It's well recognized that the second most dangerous stage of life after infancy is retirement. People don't actually deal well with idleness, they need purpose, and work takes that central role in life. Contrary to popular belief, it's a lot harder not to work than it is to work.

I had to drop out of school when I was young because of an anxiety disorder, despite my doing everything I could to resolve it, and what I kept hearing from my closest friend was how lucky I was not to be in school. When he found work and I didn't initially, that's also all I kept hearing. I was never asked about my well-being, it was just assumed that I must have been enjoying myself. People think about things subjectively and it takes some effort to try to see the bigger picture, and that's not something you are doing right now.

It's not a mystery to anyone here that he has issues, but these issues don't exist in a vacuum and the solution isn't reducible to "pull yourself by your bootstraps". You can criticise him for being impractical but you guys are going to the other extreme and just thinking about a complex life in a wholly one-dimensional manner.

On June 02 2018 00:32 RiKD wrote: Show nested quote + On June 01 2018 22:06 blackjacki2 wrote: Are you sure your aversion to work is because u dont want to be a slave to the capitalist machine and not that you're just lazy? I was talking to my therapist about that. I mentioned that most people are going to consider me lazy. I am ok with that. The same people consider the French lazy for striking so much and having so much vacation time. Why the fuck not? In the USA we are brainwashed. I've had people get kind of pissed at me that I am just sort of lounging around on the internet and reading books. What is so wrong with that? I am spending my time on ends in itself. That is a pure way of living.

I think there's a huge difference between someone wanting better benefits from their job and someone wanting to not have a job.

On June 02 2018 04:49 bigredhoss wrote: Show nested quote + On June 01 2018 02:50 RiKD wrote: Everyone should fucking organize.   On June 01 2018 19:25 RiKD wrote: Let's ORGANIZE! So, yeah, I am going to be unhappy and disobedient and organize if I can and not get run over in these negotiation man. What initiatives have you taken to "organize"?

I am on vacation I don't need to organize.

My last job I thought about it but didn't really think it was possible.

It's actually something I have thought about doing. I would love to work on behalf of a bricklayer union, blacksmith union, or united steel workers in the steel mills. Those are my guys. I used to take shit for being so close to those guys but fuck the masters. The masters kept me fed but the union guys are who I liked hanging out with. The masters would push the unions as far they could. United Steel Workers vs Arcelormittal was always epic negotiations. Imagine USW, that is the entire labor force. This is skilled, dangerous work in a steel mill. You can't have scabs doing that shit. Arcelormittal used to shit on the bricklayers a bit more but it's the same thing. You can't just get people off the streets laying yellow brick. People will fucking die. It would probably help if I got my law degree. I could be an environmental lawyer or a union lawyer. I fucking hate lawyers though. I hate reading contracts. It would likely be a dismal job for me.

On June 02 2018 07:42 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On June 01 2018 22:06 blackjacki2 wrote: Are you sure your aversion to work is because u dont want to be a slave to the capitalist machine and not that you're just lazy? Are you sure that your conception of work and laziness isn't something that's been imprinted in you at an early age so that you'd serve the interests of people who couldn't possibly care less about your well-being? I guess when everything else failed, humor might still do the trick.

I think my concept of work predates modern society by millions of years. Every organism that has ever existed has required work/energy to accumulate the resources to sustain itself. I think it's not inaccurate to say that we've come to a point in our society where an individual's work will benefit others more than it benefits themselves, I just don't see how the solution to that is to just not work at all.

At the end of the day OP will still require resources to sustain himself - food, water, shelter, electricity, etc. and all of those things will still require work to generate. I'm not "pissed" that OP is using his time to read books and lounge around the internet. I just hope he appreciates the fact that doing those things contributes absolutely nothing to generating the resources he consumes. OP saying he just wants to lie around and read books is the same as saying he wants to lie around while others do the work to generate the resources he needs to sustain himself. So it's not hard to see why others in this thread have called him entitled.

Show nested quote + On June 02 2018 10:22 bigredhoss wrote:   On June 02 2018 07:56 Loco wrote:   On June 02 2018 04:49 bigredhoss wrote: [QUOTE]On June 01 2018 02:50 RiKD wrote: Everyone should fucking organize.   On June 01 2018 19:25 RiKD wrote: Let's ORGANIZE! So, yeah, I am going to be unhappy and disobedient and organize if I can and not get run over in these negotiation man. What initiatives have you taken to "organize"? Give the fucking guy a break, geez. What's the purpose of this kind of cynicism? He's just learned a bunch of stuff and he's venting. He doesn't have a job right now but in the future he could organize with his coworkers to have better working conditions. It's not something to be cynical about, it happens all the time. The employees of my favorite restaurant in Montreal are doing it right now. I don't think my comment was that harsh, but maybe you're reacting to the perception of people piling on in this blogpost. I don't have anything against organizing for better working conditions in situations where it's warranted.

Organizing is a new, exciting idea to me. Of course, it's going to come out when I am writing about this stuff. My only experience with unions was with the United Steelworkers. A very large union with a rich history. I didn't think it was possible to organize at a small restaurant. People can pile on with whatever they want. Maybe it will have a grain of truth to it. Some map of reality to it. I'm already getting my fair share and it's mostly from retired business owners and executives..... Fucking country club Fox News baby boomers. Great.

A problem I (and I'm guessing other people) have reading Rik's blogs is our real-life priors. I know too many people who are simply lazy, and use whatever rationale is most convenient to justify their laziness. Does that mean Rik is lazy? No, but it's enough to make me cynical when reading his posts. I don't even think being lazy is the worst quality in the world, but being delusional about it probably isn't healthy. I actually don't know the answer to the question I asked him re: organizing since he hasn't responded yet. But if the answer is 'nothing', despite being something he keeps repeating and professing to care about, it becomes harder to buy that his primary reason for being unemployed is moral/philosophical opposition to corporations (rather than being lazy).

The fact that I am not working has allowed me to open my eyes on organizing. As I said I didn't even know it was an option. I thought the only defense a guy like me had was to have a bunch of money in liquid savings and other job options. Does everyone just want me to say I am lazy? I take care of my pets, I take care of my mom's garden, if you were to watch me train laziness would not be even close to a word to describe me, I make sure the dog gets a walk, and I read books. I don't think the absence of paid work inherently makes me lazy. I think a lot of people think that does make me lazy. That doesn't mean I am not lazy. Here's the thing, my last job I was very conscientious. Now, I am focusing more on reading and learning. I am a conscientious autodidact. What does that even mean? Exactly. What does that even mean? Seriously. What does that mean? I know for most it looks like laziness. "Books are for recreation. You need to be working." is what one guy told me. Here's the facts: I go on a family vacation June 13 - June 23. I am looking at some stuff in the time being but I am almost considering it a vacation until after June 23. My bankroll can support this. What seems to be the problem?

I am unemployed because the restaurant I worked at closed down. Now, that I am unemployed and there is no MAJOR monetary pressure to be employed right this second I get to reading, discussing, watching YouTube videos. Go watch 2 hours of Chomsky on Anarchy. Guaranteed it won't make you want to look for a job.

I also think there's a lot of cognitive dissonance when he says something like this: Show nested quote + I've had people get kind of pissed at me that I am just sort of lounging around on the internet and reading books. What is so wrong with that? I am spending my time on ends in itself. That is a pure way of living. while there's a major theme of discontent and internal conflict in most of his blogs. When you add in his constant mentioning of his big PLO run and his important previous job, it just comes off as someone whose will and ego have been broken and he doesn't really know what to do about it. I mean did you see the blog where he posted a bunch of art that many people would obviously find beautiful, and made the comment that people would probably have to be 'hyper open-minded' like him to appreciate it? He's desperate to find a reason to feel special. There's obviously at least some merit to his ideas, the question is whether it's enough to justify his lack of action. Real life is messy. Only he can know how much internal strife attempting to kowtow to the 'masters' would cause him.

You're getting pissed that I am just sort of lounging on the internet and reading books. Seems like everyone is. I've never said it was sustainable. It's just a short season of it. I've enjoyed it. Not at all times. It sucks when you are reading "Homage to Catalonia" and want more details on anarchy and communism and he is just continuing to detail the rather banal aspects of trench warfare. But, then you get Morin talking about reality and uncertainty and wagers and complexity and all this stuff and the brain starts lighting up.

I bring the discontent and the internal conflicts to the blog. It's like a therapist but better. I can express exactly how I am feeling.

In regards to PLO and the "important" previous job what exactly are you saying? Man, I am talking about not wanting to work at Starbucks because the owner's authority is illegitimate and I don't want to rent myself to them. Are you talking about I should have ambitions to play high stakes PLO again? Ambitions to work my way up the hierarchy at a multinational corporation? Man, I did these things and it wasn't for me. So, now everyone's going to call me lazy for that? One thing is probably true though. My ego is still a bit shaken from those experiences. My self image and ego haven't quite found themselves yet. AA may or may not have gotten me sober but it certainly didn't help with the ego situation. What do you do with no ego and no god? Read Nietzsche I suppose.

I am extremely open-minded. I am not proud of that. It's just a fact. I think in that moment of writing what I did I was thinking of my father. He hates art museums and has never read a philosophy book in his life. One would have to be at least open-minded to enjoy the art in that blog. It came from a self-conscious place. "Here is some art that I appreciate and if you don't appreciate it fuck you." I wanted to be an artist when I was younger and my dad would always roll his eyes. He wanted me to be a chemist or an engineer like every male in the family. He never showed any interest in any of my artwork and only wanted to talk about how the Cleveland Browns were doing. I understand that is just who he is but it kind of sucks for someone who doesn't like chemistry, engineering, or the Cleveland Browns.

I'll tell you this much. I'm not fucking kowtowing to any fucking masters but it does happen. I fucking hated myself when I would flatter the boss almost instinctually or laugh at his jokes that were not funny. But, I mean, unless I come up with some really bright ideas in the next few weeks I will be renting myself out to an owner. Hopefully, one I like. Hopefully, one whose authority is legitimate.

Show nested quote + On June 02 2018 11:47 Loco wrote: If you admit to having read his blogs then you also admit to knowing he hasn't "made efforts to organize" so your post was a rhetorical question implying that his main problem is laziness. I just don't see what it's supposed to accomplish outside of ridiculing the guy. [quote] I actually don't know the answer to the question I asked him re: organizing since he hasn't responded yet. But if the answer is 'nothing', despite being something he keeps repeating and professing to care about, it becomes harder to buy that his primary reason for being unemployed is moral/philosophical opposition to corporations (rather than being lazy). It's a bullshit question, you can't organize alone and you know he doesn't have a job. He has only been talking about this for a couple weeks yet you act like he has been deluding himself for years over this idea of organizing which he's not following up with. Also, this is just really unsophisticated either/or logic. Human motivation isn't reducible to "either you do X like everyone else or you're lazy".

This is exactly it. "Human motivation isn't reducible to "either you do X like everyone else or you're lazy."" It's what humans want to do. Reduce, simplify, put it in a box. "oh he's not renting himself to an owner.... he's lazy. He's LAZY." It's bullshit.

I don't see any cognitive dissonance involved in the part you quoted. It is true that people who work jobs they hate will envy people who aren't working and that envy is often expressed through frustration. They necessarily assume that this is a positive freedom without taking into account exactly what this means for the mental health of the person who is socially excluded and who has all this time on their hands. It's well recognized that the second most dangerous stage of life after infancy is retirement. People don't actually deal well with idleness, they need purpose, and work takes that central role in life. Contrary to popular belief, it's a lot harder not to work than it is to work. I had to drop out of school when I was young because of an anxiety disorder, despite my doing everything I could to resolve it, and what I kept hearing from my closest friend was how lucky I was not to be in school. When he found work and I didn't initially, that's also all I kept hearing. I was never asked about my well-being, it was just assumed that I must have been enjoying myself. People think about things subjectively and it takes some effort to try to see the bigger picture, and that's not something you are doing right now. It's not a mystery to anyone here that he has issues, but these issues don't exist in a vacuum and the solution isn't reducible to "pull yourself by your bootstraps". You can criticise him for being impractical but you guys are going to the other extreme and just thinking about a complex life in a wholly one-dimensional manner.

Yeah, that is a much better discussion. Am I being impractical?

On June 02 2018 13:27 blackjacki2 wrote: Show nested quote + On June 02 2018 00:32 RiKD wrote:   On June 01 2018 22:06 blackjacki2 wrote: Are you sure your aversion to work is because u dont want to be a slave to the capitalist machine and not that you're just lazy? I was talking to my therapist about that. I mentioned that most people are going to consider me lazy. I am ok with that. The same people consider the French lazy for striking so much and having so much vacation time. Why the fuck not? In the USA we are brainwashed. I've had people get kind of pissed at me that I am just sort of lounging around on the internet and reading books. What is so wrong with that? I am spending my time on ends in itself. That is a pure way of living. I think there's a huge difference between someone wanting better benefits from their job and someone wanting to not have a job.

I would actually prefer a computer post some jobs that are most needed not for profit but for human benefit and that my skills and experience could be useful. As long as I had adequate food, shelter, clothing, and opportunity for friendships and the computer would help me out in the the future that's it. This is sounding like I should join greenpeace or something like that.

I am entitled by the way. I believe that every human being should have food, water, shelter, clothing, and reliable healthcare. Is it really a privilege or special treatment if everyone has it though?

On June 02 2018 13:57 blackjacki2 wrote: Show nested quote + On June 02 2018 07:42 Loco wrote:   On June 01 2018 22:06 blackjacki2 wrote: Are you sure your aversion to work is because u dont want to be a slave to the capitalist machine and not that you're just lazy? Are you sure that your conception of work and laziness isn't something that's been imprinted in you at an early age so that you'd serve the interests of people who couldn't possibly care less about your well-being? I guess when everything else failed, humor might still do the trick. I think my concept of work predates modern society by millions of years. Every organism that has ever existed has required work/energy to accumulate the resources to sustain itself. I think it's not inaccurate to say that we've come to a point in our society where an individual's work will benefit others more than it benefits themselves, I just don't see how the solution to that is to just not work at all. At the end of the day OP will still require resources to sustain himself - food, water, shelter, electricity, etc. and all of those things will still require work to generate. I'm not "pissed" that OP is using his time to read books and lounge around the internet. I just hope he appreciates the fact that doing those things contributes absolutely nothing to generating the resources he consumes. OP saying he just wants to lie around and read books is the same as saying he wants to lie around while others do the work to generate the resources he needs to sustain himself. So it's not hard to see why others in this thread have called him entitled.

Despite your attempt at beginning an original train of thought, I don't believe that your conception is any different from the script that everyone is handed early on. It's centered around the ethic of contribution, the "noble worker", and it neglects the part about critically analyzing what it is exactly that is being contributed to and who it truly benefits. Isn't that the most important thing? If you were to donate money, wouldn't you want to make sure your contribution is going to the people who need it the most rather than some opportunistic assholes? So, why don't you elaborate on your view of contribution within the current socio-economic system?

Here's mine. Not all non-workers are lazy freeloaders. I would argue that most aren't -- they are victims of structural violence. You are rarely out of the system by choice in this world. The script you're reading from doesn't even have a footnote about that because those who have written it thrive off of such violence. The whole of civilization was built from it and it is continuing to this day, in fact is is accelerating. Some of us look at this and we are appalled, worried and depressed. We want to contribute to a system that actually cares about people, but the powers that be oppose and actively undermine those ambitions and efforts every day.

The resources that OP consumes are being squandered thousands-fold every day by single individuals who are allowed to accumulate insidious amounts of money and use it in the least effective (and most environmentally destructive) manner possible. When 40% of the wealth is concentrated in the hands of 1% of the population, you don't turn around and blame the guy with mental disorders and tell him that it's unfair that others work while he doesn't. It's just totally disconnected from reality to think that those who don't work are the real problem in this economy. It's also based on the assumption that resources are scarce, which isn't true. And the underlying assumption behind your statement is that not doing is categorically worse than doing, but this is a mere assumption without a rationale. You have to analyze critically what it is precisely that is being done and not done before you can come up with a defensible value judgment. Again, I'll have to refer to Carlin:


“Motivation is bullshit, if you ask me this country could use a little less motivation. The people who are motivated are the ones who are causing all the trouble! Stock swindlers, serial killers, child molesters, Christian conservatives? These people are highly motivated, highly motivated. I think motivation is overrated, you show me some lazy prick who's lying around all day watching game shows and stroking his penis and I'll show you someone who's not causing any fucking trouble ok?”

On June 02 2018 16:19 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On June 02 2018 13:57 blackjacki2 wrote:   On June 02 2018 07:42 Loco wrote:   On June 01 2018 22:06 blackjacki2 wrote: Are you sure your aversion to work is because u dont want to be a slave to the capitalist machine and not that you're just lazy? Are you sure that your conception of work and laziness isn't something that's been imprinted in you at an early age so that you'd serve the interests of people who couldn't possibly care less about your well-being? I guess when everything else failed, humor might still do the trick. I think my concept of work predates modern society by millions of years. Every organism that has ever existed has required work/energy to accumulate the resources to sustain itself. I think it's not inaccurate to say that we've come to a point in our society where an individual's work will benefit others more than it benefits themselves, I just don't see how the solution to that is to just not work at all. At the end of the day OP will still require resources to sustain himself - food, water, shelter, electricity, etc. and all of those things will still require work to generate. I'm not "pissed" that OP is using his time to read books and lounge around the internet. I just hope he appreciates the fact that doing those things contributes absolutely nothing to generating the resources he consumes. OP saying he just wants to lie around and read books is the same as saying he wants to lie around while others do the work to generate the resources he needs to sustain himself. So it's not hard to see why others in this thread have called him entitled. Despite your attempt at beginning an original train of thought, I don't believe that your conception is any different from the script that everyone is handed early on. It's centered around the ethic of contribution, the "noble worker", and it neglects the part about critically analyzing what it is exactly that is being contributed to and who it truly benefits. Isn't that the most important thing? If you were to donate money, wouldn't you want to make sure your contribution is going to the people who need it the most rather than some opportunistic assholes? So, why don't you elaborate on your view of contribution within the current socio-economic system? Here's mine. Not all non-workers are lazy freeloaders. I would argue that most aren't -- they are victims of structural violence. You are rarely out of the system by choice in this world. The script you're reading from doesn't even have a footnote about that because those who have written it thrive off of such violence. The whole of civilization was built from it and it is continuing to this day, in fact is is accelerating. Some of us look at this and we are appalled, worried and depressed. We want to contribute to a system that actually cares about people. The resources that OP consumes are being squandered thousands-fold every day by people who are allowed to accumulate insidious amounts of money and use it in the least effective manner possible. When 40% of the wealth is concentrated in the hands of 1% of the population, you don't turn around and blame the guy with mental disorders and tell him that it's unfair that others work while he doesn't. It's just totally disconnected from reality to think that those who don't work are the real problem in this economy. It's also based on the assumptions that resources are scarce, which isn't true. And it's based on the assumption that not doing is categorically worse than doing, but this is a mere assumption without a rationale. You have to analyze critically what it is precisely that is being done and not done before you can come up with a defensible value judgment. Again, I'll have to refer to Carlin: “Motivation is bullshit, if you ask me this country could use a little less motivation. The people who are motivated are the ones who are causing all the trouble! Stock swindlers, serial killers, child molesters, Christian conservatives? These people are highly motivated, highly motivated. I think motivation is overrated, you show me some lazy prick who's lying around all day watching game shows and stroking his penis and I'll show you someone who's not causing any fucking trouble ok?”

Sorry if my posts come off as scripted, one-dimensional and lacking critical thinking. We can't all have thoughts that are sooooooooo fucking original like yours.

I'm sorry that you feel insulted, those words are not insults, they are qualificatives. If you don't think they apply to those statements, you can elaborate and show me the deeper reasoning behind them.

Late edit: I also didn't mean to imply you can't think critically at all. Just that I see no critical analysis for this one specific issue. It could simply be that you have a blindspot, as we all have somewhere or other.

Poker is poker. It becomes pretty clear that I was manipulating and exploiting the other players at the table but at least this was open and explicit. It still leads to a hollowness and depression but it is part of the whole package. I thought about quitting poker because of this but I never did. Well, actually in the end it was partly why I quit. I could have gone on to the bitter end if I wanted to.

Now, we are in business. I'm supplying steel mills with products and services. Let's make some steel baby! My first big account made specialty steels for aircraft, needles for healthcare, all sorts of cool shit. It was a smaller batch type of place. I loved it. I had another account that was government contracted for navy ships and railroads. Seems reasonable. I had another account that was all rebar for construction. Not sexy but I could see how that is needed. My biggest account made steel for parts of Toyota Camrys and Ford Fusions. It was kind of cool seeing my friend driving around in a Ford Fusion he helped create. How many Ford Fusions do you need though? I was just reading Marx and he was talking about how you need to exploit new markets or better exploit the current ones. It's so fucking true.

Oh, first of all part of the reason I talk about my "important" job so much is it illustrates aspects of capitalism. There are not many purer forms of "democratic" capitalism today than selling products and services to steel mills in Chicago. Actually, I don't even feel like telling the story. But, I'll tell another story. I felt proud when our product was installed in the equipment. I was more proud when the hot steel poured through it. I felt proud when I watched the hot slabs of steel getting transferred to the next process. Then I would watch a car advertisement and cringe. It really is an amazing process to take iron from the ground or metal scrap and turn it into steel and then to turn that steel into a product but the inducement to consume at all costs, profit by any means necessary sickens me. But, I do miss waking up early, parking my car by the lake and watching the sun rise, getting into those mills at like 6am so I could catch the daily news as the shifts were about to change over, bullshitting with the bricklayers, taking my inventories. It felt like freedom. It felt like autonomy. There were many days I didn't talk to my boss. Sour negotiations can sour anything. Nothing a drink won't fix. Nothing a drink won't fix. Nothing a drink won't............... I was a big baby. I lose one big contract and go on a bender for 1 week and there was no coming back from that. Before I know it the stuff's not working and I am dependent on it.

I don't know what I'm accomplishing with this I just started to write.

The point is capitalism is fucked. It's just this big game to get the masters profit. Everyone turns a blind eye to these ends. Well, that and the stress. They start drinking, they watch Netflix for 4 hours, or they buy a bunch of stuff on the internet. If you are in it you don't want to look directly at it. The first inclination is to rationalize this or that. Just a week prior you were googling your hero Warren Buffet. It can't be true! It seems like there is no other options. Part of the reason I am no longer working for that corporation is that after my rehab period they offered me a job for $40,000 and I thought that to be unthinkable. Last year I made $10,000. I currently don't pay rent and some of my food is covered so that saves me about $10,000 in rent and maybe $1,000 in food. It's really not so bad. I'm about to take a walk on the beach with my dog and then probably read some more Marx. The anti-capitalism afternoon.

^^What about the story where a big reason you even got the job at the corporation in the first place was cause your dad held a high position at the company.

On June 02 2018 20:56 hiems wrote: ^^What about the story where a big reason you even got the job at the corporation in the first place was cause your dad held a high position at the company.

What about it? A lot could be said about it.

Well for starters I think it's relevant to the discussion in this thread.

Ok. I'll write more.

It was 2012. I was getting my shit together. I had a good capitalist attitude. I was the best man at my brother's wedding. A handful of my dad's co-workers were at the wedding. I gave a very good speech. A lot of people were impressed including my dad's co-workers. I was rather charming that night.

I still didn't have a job. I was looking into the military. There were some openings at the company. My dad helped me with the courting process and the resume. The NAFTA Sales Director loved me. My dad was the one that hired him and the VP of HR fwiw. I had to interview with the VP of Sales also. I think some of these guys including the VP of Sales who had cut their teeth in steel mills were a little pissed but I mean I was interviewing for a job just a bit above a laborer. My first year I did basically exactly what the sales strategy was. I increased margin, I got paid on time, and negotiated high volume low margin items. Myself and one of the marketing guys were kind of revolutionizing things out there for a minute. The NAFTA Sales Director who hired me quit. The new guy wanted me out in Chicago. An extremely tough, competitive area. I took the promotion. I still to this day remember the technician out East who had been working that area for 20+ years tell me that I was the best he'd ever seen and good luck. That meant more to me than anything.

So, my dad was a legend in the Chicago area. To say that this didn't help me get business would be stupid. It certainly helped me get business. The first big contract I got started because an engineer had just been at a conference with my dad. That snowballed. I really got along well with the manager though. We just clicked. Plus, I just really got along well with the construction guys. This plant was huge and did crazy business. It was to the order of magnitude of 10x+ the business out East. I mean I remember coming home one day after a good conversation with a guy and I see a purchase order for $60,000 cash. I was hitting my strides because I had been on all these trials out East although Chicago was much more dialed in and competitive. Not nearly as many edges while out East there were gaping holes in quite a lot of areas. I don't really want to go too much into the Notre Dame All-American and the corruption. No other business had been in there for 30 years. I was just a crazy fuck. I think this is part of why people liked me. I am just a bit of a character. A little bit different than your average Northwest Indiana supplier salesmen and I actually did care and enjoy talking to the guys on the floor. We got a trial on a good margin item with a shit ton of volume. I found something was wrong with their pre-heater. We got more orders. I mean here is where we can kind of bring up nepotism. Was it nepotism that I was hired? Yes. But, here I am out in the most competitive area in the world making the company piles and piles of cash at great fucking return on sales. I'm typically working 6 to 6 or more including weekends. People were joking that I don't ever sleep or leave the mill. But, we talk about nepotism. I always felt a tremendous pressure to be perfect. To be the best. In dealing with co-workers it could be interesting at times. There was never a direct line between my dad and myself but I often worked with people who worked under my dad and to be honest my dad had an incredible amount of authority within not only the business unit but the company. This authority was legitimate. My dad is a crazy fuck too. He read at least 1 technical paper a night his whole career. He's up there for knowing more about steelmaking than anyone in the world. He also has a certain unique charisma and could be a ruthless businessmen if need be. It's why he gets paid stupid amounts to play golf and read Tom Clancey novels with an occasional trip to an international steel mill where he gets paid even more. Winning $18 million contracts there's typically some profit there. The masters are happy.

So, I had the most profitable account per capita in the region or NAFTA I can't remember what my boss's boss said. It was basically because mostly myself and 1 other guy were running this whole thing. Other accounts would have teams but it did help us that the mill did the construction and not us. It was kind of unsustainable. Especially if you look at the bigger picture. The higher ups were mostly looking at this as leverage for the other guy to lower their prices. Which they did and they hired more guys and the bribery was in full force.

My drinking had been heavy for a while. Loco sent me a book that I think explained what happen pretty well. I was a self-exploiting achievement machine in the steel mills and a drunk when I had to be alone with myself. My only friends drank just as much as me or more. When I lost business I didn't know how to cope. I took vacation and went on a bender for 1 whole week and basically never looked back. It progressed on me quick.

5 years later and that corporation is basically in shambles. The CEO is a douche. It's full of a bunch of cold accountants. The culture is shit. And I am happy I am no longer there.

The Notre Dame All-american competitor is banned from every steel mill in Northwest Indiana for bribery.

My dad is making about 2 flags to spend the week with my mom in Key West. LOL. It's uncertain if he'll even send any emails or make a call. Is this what you mean by bullshit job Loco?

So, nepotism is bad. I benefited from it and then long term not so much. Nepotism will exist in any capitalist system but I think it's partly why the GMs and the Fords and the steel industry is not doing so well. Nepotism was rampant in the steel industry. Like, it was just sort of accepted and not even a big deal.

I think overall it hurt me. I was always trying to be perfect, always trying to be the best and there were always underlying insecurities. I never could get out of my dad's shadow. I came close to carving out a life for myself in that space but it just seemed doomed to fail. Sometimes it's so hard to look at the past and try and play guessing games. If I didn't willingly accept nepotism then what? I'm off to the military? I saw it as an out. A second chance. I could finally shake off the demons from poker and get to doing something.

I managed alcoholic/workaholic for a long ass time. I really do appreciate a lot of the people I met on that steel industry journey. I learned a lot from it. Just because it had dubious beginnings doesn't mean it was worthless. I mean let's get real here. I started out as sales bitch then I worked my ass off and learned the job and kept taking on responsibilities. My manager was down in Maryland all the damn time on these big jobs that he basically just handed me the accounts and said go. So, I did and I kept fucking going until I broke. So, I think there is that story.

I am a flawed human being. I used to try and hide my flaws, cover up my flaws, not let myself be seen to be flawed but I am flawed. It's weird in this thread. Some of the backlash I am getting. It almost seems like certain people are trying to build a case against me. You don't have to build a case against me. I'm flawed. I don't have to be perfect anymore. It's a weird thing with capitalism. It's like we get addicted to it. This idea of acquiring more private property. People get pissed off if you challenge it. I don't think people like the idea that they are wage slaves either. Simply wage labor so the masters can acquire capital. The bourgeois dream. It's been sold to us our whole life. A surplus of capital so we can acquire bourgeois property. You don't see any fucking advertisements for family and friends, beans, rice, and bell peppers, time. No, it's for shit you don't fucking need and you wouldn't even fucking want it until they manipulated you into needing it. I've been there. I've been there for most of my life. It feels fucking great to not really be there at the moment. You start talking to people about capitalism and it's similar to telling someone Santa doesn't exist or that god doesn't exist and we are mere specks of dust living on a speck of dust and that we will experience immense pain before ceasing to exist. That's some reality. There is really not that much uncertainty to it. Steve Bezos doesn't give a fuck about you. Well, only in so far as you keep clicking the buy button on Amazon.com.

You are not going to be Ray Dalio even if you follow all his stupid principles. You can go from one guy to the next. What do they have in common? Luck, high IQ, hard work, and typically ruthless when they had to be. Many times these guys are full blown psychopaths. It's no fun spending your days surrounded by covert manipulation and exploitation. That is the dominance hierarchy. How to play the game. Everyone is playing exploitation games it's just all under a fog of war. It's not talked about. It's not discussed. Every moment is a negotiation, a wager. Step 1 is making your boss happy. That can be accomplished by making him laugh, making his life easier, making him more money, etc. If you can make his boss happy while still keeping your boss happy that is an advanced play. Meh, we've been through this before. What's a 3% raise when inflation is 4%? It's how you increase the salary constantly getting these small incremental raises. Have your employer by the balls and go in for the kill when you can. My brother did this masterfully. He's like 31 and making $150,000/yr. Of course, he's just crunching numbers for one of those criminal banks but hey, he's living in a fucking mansion that he gets to fill with stuff! No, I love my brother and I am happy for him. Sometimes I wish I had that zone where I could just be a data scientist or an engineer and just love it and be more comfortable and not think about all this anti-capitalist stuff and not feel so much anguish. I've never had that in me. I've always been inquisitive. Even in high school I was always in a mood that there had to be something more to this. Stimulating humanities classes in college certainly helped but poker was that gateway that opened up the world to me. It's a never ending search. I am a seeker. I am a wanderer. Life is a journey. I don't believe in enlightenment. I don't know why I don't drink or do drugs anymore. I'm just happy that I don't. Perhaps, I can bear myself when I am alone.

I don't believe in enlightenment (so what am I searching for?). I love a lot of buddhist thought but I'm not a buddhist. Maybe that's a mistake. I could see a life on an anarchist commune bringing more to the table. All I know is that there's more. I'm stuck in the future. I see myself in Africa. I wish to be in Tokyo, Kyoto, Okinawa but that's not it. Not yet. Similarly, with a return trip to Paris. I am better off in a coffee shop here with friends. I do wish that I spent more time with friends. I was going to join a secular humanist group but they are too rational for me. I like the people with feelings, with creativity. The artists, the autodidacts, the anarchists, the atheists. They are not always easy to find. So, many nights I sit alone in my room writing or reading.

On June 02 2018 11:47 Loco wrote: If you admit to having read his blogs then you also admit to knowing he hasn't "made efforts to organize" so your post was a rhetorical question implying that his main problem is laziness. I just don't see what it's supposed to accomplish outside of ridiculing the guy.

How would I know he hasn't made efforts to organize? I assume he doesn't post every single activity he does in his blog. My first post in this blog wasn't ridicule, it was a question. My second post contained some ridicule.

It's a bullshit question, you can't organize alone and you know he doesn't have a job. He has only been talking about this for a couple weeks yet you act like he has been deluding himself for years over this idea of organizing which he's not following up with. Also, this is just really unsophisticated either/or logic. Human motivation isn't reducible to "either you do X like everyone else or you're lazy".

It's really just a question, I don't know why you're being so sensitive about it. Also, not having a job doesn't preclude someone from all human communication, of course he can make attempts to organize without having a job.

There isn't a problem with my logic, however it seems to be a topic that carries a lot of emotional baggage with you which causes you to ascribe things to my writing that I'm not actually saying (see: Ascribing ridicule to a simple question, and Me never saying human motivation is reducible to 'either you do X like everyone else or you're lazy').

Imagine you are applying to a job, the position of Chief Boss of Organizing. The person interviewing you for that job may ask you a wild and totally unexpected question, like "What are some Organizing jobs or activities you've been involved with in the past?" or "What have you accomplished through Organizing?". It is not an accident that these questions are asked; people's past/current behavior is a good predictor of their future behavior.

Of course, not having an answer to those questions doesn't guarantee that you wouldn't be a great Organizer, or that you don't genuinely care about Organizing. But the interviewer isn't trying to prove definitively that you can't do the job, just like I'm not trying to prove that if Rik doesn't do X, he's lazy (which is what you are erroneously accusing me of). I'm saying that his life and the explanations he gives point to him probably being lazy - and more importantly, delusional.

I don't see any cognitive dissonance involved in the part you quoted. It is true that people who work jobs they hate will envy people who aren't working and that envy is often expressed through frustration. They necessarily assume that this is a positive freedom without taking into account exactly what this means for the mental health of the person who is socially excluded and who has all this time on their hands. It's well recognized that the second most dangerous stage of life after infancy is retirement. People don't actually deal well with idleness, they need purpose, and work takes that central role in life. Contrary to popular belief, it's a lot harder not to work than it is to work.

The cognitive dissonance comes from him calling his current life a pure way of living, meanwhile posting a stream of blogs that are full of conflict and discontent, posts which seem to be unprovoked by others. I thought that was pretty obvious. Also there are clearly situations where working is harder than not working, but I know you intended the last sentence generically, not as an exhaustive rule to every situation.

I had to drop out of school when I was young because of an anxiety disorder, despite my doing everything I could to resolve it, and what I kept hearing from my closest friend was how lucky I was not to be in school. When he found work and I didn't initially, that's also all I kept hearing. I was never asked about my well-being, it was just assumed that I must have been enjoying myself. People think about things subjectively and it takes some effort to try to see the bigger picture, and that's not something you are doing right now.

It's impossible to know every detail of his situation. If I tell someone to eat green vegetables instead of chocolate cake, I'm not going to spend my time thinking about how they subjectively think about chocolate cake, or the duress they experience when faced with green vegetables because they had negative experiences with vegetables in the past. I also wouldn't be particularly moved by a bunch of wordy blog posts pondering whether the sacrifice of chocolate cake for vegetables is worth it in the long run, because chocolate cake brings this person real joy, and we all die in the long run anyway so why not enjoy the cake and screw the vegetables. Is eating vegetables and denying oneself cake really worth a little added lifespan?

I would just say eat vegetables, not cake, and believe my advice to be justified. It's not perfect advice for everyone in every situation.

It's not a mystery to anyone here that he has issues, but these issues don't exist in a vacuum and the solution isn't reducible to "pull yourself by your bootstraps". You can criticise him for being impractical but you guys are going to the other extreme and just thinking about a complex life in a wholly one-dimensional manner.

Not every call to action is reducible to a tired cliche involving the pulling of bootstraps. It's a shame that you and Rik have been so affected by ideological trolls that you see any advice involving conscious and focused effort as being some form of right-wing brainwashing.

On June 02 2018 15:26 RiKD wrote: Show nested quote +   On June 02 2018 10:22 bigredhoss wrote:   On June 02 2018 07:56 Loco wrote:   On June 02 2018 04:49 bigredhoss wrote: [QUOTE]On June 01 2018 02:50 RiKD wrote: Everyone should fucking organize.   On June 01 2018 19:25 RiKD wrote: Let's ORGANIZE! So, yeah, I am going to be unhappy and disobedient and organize if I can and not get run over in these negotiation man. What initiatives have you taken to "organize"? Give the fucking guy a break, geez. What's the purpose of this kind of cynicism? He's just learned a bunch of stuff and he's venting. He doesn't have a job right now but in the future he could organize with his coworkers to have better working conditions. It's not something to be cynical about, it happens all the time. The employees of my favorite restaurant in Montreal are doing it right now. I don't think my comment was that harsh, but maybe you're reacting to the perception of people piling on in this blogpost. I don't have anything against organizing for better working conditions in situations where it's warranted. Organizing is a new, exciting idea to me. Of course, it's going to come out when I am writing about this stuff. My only experience with unions was with the United Steelworkers. A very large union with a rich history. I didn't think it was possible to organize at a small restaurant. People can pile on with whatever they want. Maybe it will have a grain of truth to it. Some map of reality to it. I'm already getting my fair share and it's mostly from retired business owners and executives..... Fucking country club Fox News baby boomers. Great.   A problem I (and I'm guessing other people) have reading Rik's blogs is our real-life priors. I know too many people who are simply lazy, and use whatever rationale is most convenient to justify their laziness. Does that mean Rik is lazy? No, but it's enough to make me cynical when reading his posts. I don't even think being lazy is the worst quality in the world, but being delusional about it probably isn't healthy. I actually don't know the answer to the question I asked him re: organizing since he hasn't responded yet. But if the answer is 'nothing', despite being something he keeps repeating and professing to care about, it becomes harder to buy that his primary reason for being unemployed is moral/philosophical opposition to corporations (rather than being lazy). The fact that I am not working has allowed me to open my eyes on organizing. As I said I didn't even know it was an option. I thought the only defense a guy like me had was to have a bunch of money in liquid savings and other job options. Does everyone just want me to say I am lazy? I take care of my pets, I take care of my mom's garden, if you were to watch me train laziness would not be even close to a word to describe me, I make sure the dog gets a walk, and I read books. I don't think the absence of paid work inherently makes me lazy. I think a lot of people think that does make me lazy. That doesn't mean I am not lazy. Here's the thing, my last job I was very conscientious. Now, I am focusing more on reading and learning. I am a conscientious autodidact. What does that even mean? Exactly. What does that even mean? Seriously. What does that mean? I know for most it looks like laziness. "Books are for recreation. You need to be working." is what one guy told me. Here's the facts: I go on a family vacation June 13 - June 23. I am looking at some stuff in the time being but I am almost considering it a vacation until after June 23. My bankroll can support this. What seems to be the problem? I am unemployed because the restaurant I worked at closed down. Now, that I am unemployed and there is no MAJOR monetary pressure to be employed right this second I get to reading, discussing, watching YouTube videos. Go watch 2 hours of Chomsky on Anarchy. Guaranteed it won't make you want to look for a job.   I also think there's a lot of cognitive dissonance when he says something like this: Show nested quote + I've had people get kind of pissed at me that I am just sort of lounging around on the internet and reading books. What is so wrong with that? I am spending my time on ends in itself. That is a pure way of living. while there's a major theme of discontent and internal conflict in most of his blogs. When you add in his constant mentioning of his big PLO run and his important previous job, it just comes off as someone whose will and ego have been broken and he doesn't really know what to do about it. I mean did you see the blog where he posted a bunch of art that many people would obviously find beautiful, and made the comment that people would probably have to be 'hyper open-minded' like him to appreciate it? He's desperate to find a reason to feel special. There's obviously at least some merit to his ideas, the question is whether it's enough to justify his lack of action. Real life is messy. Only he can know how much internal strife attempting to kowtow to the 'masters' would cause him. You're getting pissed that I am just sort of lounging on the internet and reading books. Seems like everyone is. I've never said it was sustainable. It's just a short season of it. I've enjoyed it. Not at all times. It sucks when you are reading "Homage to Catalonia" and want more details on anarchy and communism and he is just continuing to detail the rather banal aspects of trench warfare. But, then you get Morin talking about reality and uncertainty and wagers and complexity and all this stuff and the brain starts lighting up. I bring the discontent and the internal conflicts to the blog. It's like a therapist but better. I can express exactly how I am feeling. In regards to PLO and the "important" previous job what exactly are you saying? Man, I am talking about not wanting to work at Starbucks because the owner's authority is illegitimate and I don't want to rent myself to them. Are you talking about I should have ambitions to play high stakes PLO again? Ambitions to work my way up the hierarchy at a multinational corporation? Man, I did these things and it wasn't for me. So, now everyone's going to call me lazy for that? One thing is probably true though. My ego is still a bit shaken from those experiences. My self image and ego haven't quite found themselves yet. AA may or may not have gotten me sober but it certainly didn't help with the ego situation. What do you do with no ego and no god? Read Nietzsche I suppose. I am extremely open-minded. I am not proud of that. It's just a fact. I think in that moment of writing what I did I was thinking of my father. He hates art museums and has never read a philosophy book in his life. One would have to be at least open-minded to enjoy the art in that blog. It came from a self-conscious place. "Here is some art that I appreciate and if you don't appreciate it fuck you." I wanted to be an artist when I was younger and my dad would always roll his eyes. He wanted me to be a chemist or an engineer like every male in the family. He never showed any interest in any of my artwork and only wanted to talk about how the Cleveland Browns were doing. I understand that is just who he is but it kind of sucks for someone who doesn't like chemistry, engineering, or the Cleveland Browns. I'll tell you this much. I'm not fucking kowtowing to any fucking masters but it does happen. I fucking hated myself when I would flatter the boss almost instinctually or laugh at his jokes that were not funny. But, I mean, unless I come up with some really bright ideas in the next few weeks I will be renting myself out to an owner. Hopefully, one I like. Hopefully, one whose authority is legitimate.

Noone is getting pissed at you for lounging around the internet and reading. If that's what you want to do, cool. People are getting irritated because besides that, all you seem to do is bitch about how shitty ALL your other options are. At least that's what I get from reading about 10% of your bullshit. Now you've gone into defensive excuse making while calling conflicting people 'fox news something something'. Good stuff. Good luck.