Politics thread (USA Elections 2016) - Page 210

rofl

tutz is probably happier than all of us...

such a strange world

I can't help but think of the movie Memento and the search for John G. That polaroid of the hero smiling in victory. I am not sure why I made that connection just that it's a strange world and happiness is strange.

Re-post poll on the top of this page. I'm curious to see what people say.

On March 15 2020 21:35 Loco wrote: Not that it has anything to do with anything, but I never said "I am happy." I said "I am happier". Tutz is probably happier than me and you Baal, so I guess RiKD should listen to him instead of you too. What an argument. Show nested quote + On March 14 2020 04:28 Baalim wrote: If my dad died of Coronavirus I would mourn him and after that I would absolutely 100% joke about Corona-chan taking him, thats what emotionally healthy tend to do Well, let's find out. Anyone wants to chime in? If you lost a close relative to the coronavirus, would you act like Baal? Poll: Would you act like Baal after mourning your dead relative? (Vote): Yes, it's emotionally healthy. (Vote): No. (Vote): I don't know. This is fine, right?

Oops I wanted to vote yes but voted "No" by accident

I believe the emotionally healthy thing after death of a closed one is not wait for funeral or anything, but try to lean into the feeling right away
just feel the loss etc. whatever emotions it spurs

Funerals themselves are just there to give people socially accepted "permission" to feel through their feelings for once, and the stigmatised sadness and tears you are supposed to feel during the ceremony can be a form of avoidance on it's own.

Don't see the harm in using humour in the process, seems the same to me as forcefully crying during the funeral. Besides standard way IS to use avoidance to cope with things so using humour and argue with people immediately after could be considered "normal" albeit not necessarily healthy.

Besided, I think the really healthy thing to do is to accept death and it's uncertainty in general and when someone dies then celebrate their life with all the ups and downs and the time they gave no matter how short or long it was. I've been imagining my own death at the end of e.g. a tram ride for ages, it's just something you can accept and it definitely doesn't mean you joking after someone dies is not "healthy"

On March 15 2020 00:17 RiKD wrote: Show nested quote + On March 14 2020 04:26 Baalim wrote:   On March 13 2020 19:17 Loco wrote: Calling someone a hypocrite is what you lazily revert to when you don't have a counter-argument, just like your guru Molyneux. You learned from the best in the business at pretending like you care about debate and logic when it's all about your fee fees in the end. If I just 'liked MMA' I'd probably be interested in more than 2% of the fights, but whatever you say. There is no hypocrisy in saying that I can like martial arts and martial artists who have made it into the UFC without liking the commercialized spectacle around MMA and most of its fighters that I don't relate to or care for. You know as well as I do that it doesn't matter that you think there is nothing wrong with it, since it has nothing to do with your beliefs, but whether or not enjoying violent sport is compatible with a worldview that opposes hierarchy and dominance. But clearly that's too much of a nuanced discussion for you to be able to have, that's why you claim to have "won" before the discussion even started. "Probably not, what is the point?" The point is that it becomes harder to be a shitty human being and to be interested in trivial matters in the face of tragedy. For me tragedy has been ongoing for a long time, and it prevents me from being able to be as uncaring and glib as you; it doesn't just affect me when it relates to my close family. Put it another way: if your dad had just died from the corona virus, would you have come back here all excited and giddy to share this Corona-chan meme that comes out of internet's worst cesspool of right-wing extremism? No, because shit doesn't matter to you until it affects you. The proper right-wing mentality. What kind of small minded pretentious asshole thinks that they like a sport because of these complex issues, and the rest are uneducated brutes who only like the commercialized aspect of it. Do you also think you watch porn because you empathize with the struggle of the harlot, the commodification of the bodies and the rest of the people who watch ir are disgusting pigs ? A few months ago I told rick not to listen somebody who describes himself as miserable, and you said you were happy, so I guess you were lying because according to you tragedy is an ongoing thing for a long time, you absorb all the pains in the world, oh poor pariah lol. If my dad died of Coronavirus I would mourn him and after that I would absolutely 100% joke about Corona-chan taking him, thats what emotionally healthy tend to do, I guess you wouldn't know. so Corona-chan is a nazi too... ok. Loco and I are certainly outcasts and of a lower caste. Why would I not listen to Loco when he has consistently given me great suggestions? I can't speak for Loco but I can speak for myself: some may classify me as miserable. I can't really ever classify myself as blanket-ly happy. Like right now I'm not particularly happy nor sad but as I posted in a blog there is always kind of an underlying sadness and dissatisfaction. Can you honestly say that happiness is some binary state that can be sustained for long periods? Or, even living in tragedy there are bright spots typically. Sometimes there aren't. Sometimes there are seasons that are tough. Tougher than one could even imagine. We live in tragedy every day. Life is tragedy, life is comedy. I don't believe for a second that there is anyone in some blissful state all of the time. Not even Mathieu Ricard.

Focusing on being happy is bullshit largely
Almost shocking someone who is against capitalism wouldn't know that

Alas, I'm super tired and burnt out and about to go to sleep so I am being a cunt on purpose because it feels good, but that's how consumer society works baby, you do what feels good not what is right

Ok so can I just pick your brains for a bit Lemon? Let's say that tomorrow someone you love dearly died from being hit by a drunk driver. And let's say that--just humor me for a minute--that this drunk driver wasn't your typical drunk driver, but in fact, he had been hijacked by some new parasite that humanity was unprepared for, and this parasite makes people want to drink a lot of alcohol and removes their social inhibitions and care for others and makes them reckless. And let's say also that this parasite is slowly spreading across the globe, so the cases of drunk driving deaths or accidents were multiplying rapidly everywhere.

Knowing this, say you did your mourning and everything, and after a while you are back to your usual baseline of happy-go-lucky guy. You find out that there are people on the internet who have created "humorous" memes about the global takeover of this parasite and gave it an anthropomorphized cute face. Is that something you could see yourself enjoying and sharing at that point? And what about before your loved one died, would you have enjoyed those memes (created by sociopaths on the internet) and thought there was no moral conundrum in sharing them? Would you, for example, go on your deceased loved one's Facebook page, which you inherited, and which serves to remember them, and then change the profile picture for a new picture of your deceased loved one with some humorous text added to the picture like "Ha, Parasite-chan's got me. Hope y'all have a good life!! " ? Is that what you generally see "emotionally healthy people" do, and if it's not, why do you think that is?

I am removing the racial/geopolitical element from the thought experiment because I am just genuinely curious about what you just said (and because it'd be hard to create the perfect thought experiment that mirrors this particular situation, of course).

tbh when I've seen jewish people complain about antisemitic jokes, I have normally seen them complain about the quality of them, not the concept.

WhY is LoCo a HikKikomORRI?

On March 16 2020 00:12 Liquid`Drone wrote: tbh when I've seen jewish people complain about antisemitic jokes, I have normally seen them complain about the quality of them, not the concept.

Sorry I don't follow. What is the link between antisemitic jokes and normalizing far right /pol/ memes during an ongoing crisis of immense proportion and arguing that only emotionally defective people wouldnt find them funny?

If I go on TL.net and post what Baal posted, and make his above argument, what do you think is more likely going to happen? Just curious. I might end up doing it depending on your answer.

On March 15 2020 22:23 LemOn[5thF] wrote: Show nested quote + On March 15 2020 00:17 RiKD wrote:   On March 14 2020 04:26 Baalim wrote:   On March 13 2020 19:17 Loco wrote: Calling someone a hypocrite is what you lazily revert to when you don't have a counter-argument, just like your guru Molyneux. You learned from the best in the business at pretending like you care about debate and logic when it's all about your fee fees in the end. If I just 'liked MMA' I'd probably be interested in more than 2% of the fights, but whatever you say. There is no hypocrisy in saying that I can like martial arts and martial artists who have made it into the UFC without liking the commercialized spectacle around MMA and most of its fighters that I don't relate to or care for. You know as well as I do that it doesn't matter that you think there is nothing wrong with it, since it has nothing to do with your beliefs, but whether or not enjoying violent sport is compatible with a worldview that opposes hierarchy and dominance. But clearly that's too much of a nuanced discussion for you to be able to have, that's why you claim to have "won" before the discussion even started. "Probably not, what is the point?" The point is that it becomes harder to be a shitty human being and to be interested in trivial matters in the face of tragedy. For me tragedy has been ongoing for a long time, and it prevents me from being able to be as uncaring and glib as you; it doesn't just affect me when it relates to my close family. Put it another way: if your dad had just died from the corona virus, would you have come back here all excited and giddy to share this Corona-chan meme that comes out of internet's worst cesspool of right-wing extremism? No, because shit doesn't matter to you until it affects you. The proper right-wing mentality. What kind of small minded pretentious asshole thinks that they like a sport because of these complex issues, and the rest are uneducated brutes who only like the commercialized aspect of it. Do you also think you watch porn because you empathize with the struggle of the harlot, the commodification of the bodies and the rest of the people who watch ir are disgusting pigs ? A few months ago I told rick not to listen somebody who describes himself as miserable, and you said you were happy, so I guess you were lying because according to you tragedy is an ongoing thing for a long time, you absorb all the pains in the world, oh poor pariah lol. If my dad died of Coronavirus I would mourn him and after that I would absolutely 100% joke about Corona-chan taking him, thats what emotionally healthy tend to do, I guess you wouldn't know. so Corona-chan is a nazi too... ok. Loco and I are certainly outcasts and of a lower caste. Why would I not listen to Loco when he has consistently given me great suggestions? I can't speak for Loco but I can speak for myself: some may classify me as miserable. I can't really ever classify myself as blanket-ly happy. Like right now I'm not particularly happy nor sad but as I posted in a blog there is always kind of an underlying sadness and dissatisfaction. Can you honestly say that happiness is some binary state that can be sustained for long periods? Or, even living in tragedy there are bright spots typically. Sometimes there aren't. Sometimes there are seasons that are tough. Tougher than one could even imagine. We live in tragedy every day. Life is tragedy, life is comedy. I don't believe for a second that there is anyone in some blissful state all of the time. Not even Mathieu Ricard. Focusing on being happy is bullshit largely Almost shocking someone who is against capitalism wouldn't know that Alas, I'm super tired and burnt out and about to go to sleep so I am being a cunt on purpose because it feels good, but that's how consumer society works baby, you do what feels good not what is right

Well we need to focus on something. I am not talking about happiness like that carrot that corporations dangle and that advertising promises. What do we want to call it? Spiritually fit? Peace? Serenity? Tranquility? I mean obviously people can be happy it's just not going to last. I can shoot heroin. I can watch THE ENTERTAINMENT by JAMES ORIN INCANDENZA and be so entertained that I die of dehydration in absolute compulsive bliss. I can parachute a shit ton of MDMA, drink about 4 cognacs, smoke a blunt of CHRONIC, snort a line, get my prostate massaged adeptly while getting deep throated but what about the next day. What about just walking home after that situation? You feel mixed feelings about it. Like HOLY SHIT that was great. I am still feeling pretty good about it. You get the afterglow of the sex. You get the afterglow of the MDMA but the comedown is a bitch. The next day there is a hangover. Maybe a craving. How do I top that? It's a hell to live in man.

These days I eat a half pint of ice cream to feel something. That is really fucking lame by comparison. Or if I am doing well I can help someone. And I actually think I am a bit jaded with Food Not Bombs I just like the people and don't mind preparing food or serving.

We should be focusing on happiness just more so in terms of joy or whatever you want to call it. Not just hits of pleasure or what the advertisers tell us will bring pleasure. Heroin is great until it stops working or you can't afford it or both. Alcohol was the love of my life until it turned on me. It's really hard for me to carve out a life in this society but I am doing my best. Connection to people seems to be the only thing that saves me. Connection to nature. I would probably thrive in an Anarcho-Primitivism situation but that seems impossible and we don't need to go that far. Just like maybe I would be better off in a cave somewhere meditating and collecting alms but that also seems extreme. Or I could continue seeking like I am currently doing to carve out a life in current society. I don't know if it's possible. I may end up killing myself. At the moment it's not so bad. I don't even know what I'm focusing on. Change, justice, anarchy, communism, friends, dating, and trying to navigate rent, bills, medical debt, et al. I don't have to be "happy." Equanimity isn't so bad. Even a lingering sadness and dissatisfaction isn't so bad. As long as I can address the bitterness and resentments that arise.

What do you think people should focus on?

That's pretty simple
Values and values based actions

Check acceptance and commitment therapy 6 core processes to see what I mean

On March 15 2020 23:19 Loco wrote: Ok so can I just pick your brains for a bit Lemon? Let's say that tomorrow someone you love dearly died from being hit by a drunk driver. And let's say that--just humor me for a minute--that this drunk driver wasn't your typical drunk driver, but in fact, he had been hijacked by some new parasite that humanity was unprepared for, and this parasite makes people want to drink a lot of alcohol and removes their social inhibitions and care for others and makes them reckless. And let's say also that this parasite is slowly spreading across the globe, so the cases of drunk driving deaths or accidents were multiplying rapidly everywhere. Knowing this, say you did your mourning and everything, and after a while you are back to your usual baseline of happy-go-lucky guy. You find out that there are people on the internet who have created "humorous" memes about the global takeover of this parasite and gave it an anthropomorphized cute face. Is that something you could see yourself enjoying and sharing at that point? And what about before your loved one died, would you have enjoyed those memes (created by sociopaths on the internet) and thought there was no moral conundrum in sharing them? Would you, for example, go on your deceased loved one's Facebook page, which you inherited, and which serves to remember them, and then change the profile picture for a new picture of your deceased loved one with some humorous text added to the picture like "Ha, Parasite-chan's got me. Hope y'all have a good life!! " ? Is that what you generally see "emotionally healthy people" do, and if it's not, why do you think that is? I am removing the racial/geopolitical element from the thought experiment because I am just genuinely curious about what you just said (and because it'd be hard to create the perfect thought experiment that mirrors this particular situation, of course).

I would certainly joke about that
I have an 94 year old relative with dementia
Who we can't move to a home
Because when you do have dementia your brain atrophies and rational centres become weaker and weaker and your on the spot deduction has ups and downs but eventually is all but wiped out

So pretty much all she has left is her habits, she functions at home, remembers everything from 70years ago goes to the same shop every day

Only drawback is that the likelihood of her dying is much higher, I've countless times went there getting ready about what to do when I find the body, but I've discussed it with a psychiatrist and family and it's just worth shortening her life vs ripping her out of her environment and killing the last thing she jas left -habits, basically making her a vegetable.


So you accept it, you can joke about it Even with her, absurd humour itself is a perspective taking exercise that's part of therapy...And a natural coping mechanism I'd say anyways. I've talked and joked about death and funerals with my grandfather as well when he was in the hospital with a heart surgery and it generally becomes a meaningful conversation that brings you closer together with people around you


As to changing the Facebook post -well it's gonna be the post people that search for the dead person will see practically. I'd do what I always do on facebook posts - what will give people what they want
If my friends go on my wall they only see photos of things we've done together with that friend everything else is blocked
So for my relative I'd want to put in a post that would make them remember the persons life, a specific story etc. Not some unrelated bug and drunk driver that killed them mention, joke or not, death is just one moment that's incredibly insignifficant compared to the rest of a person's life. I'd joke about that with them in private for sure though

One of my favourite shows is BBC's the office and I liked Afterlife too, you'd see what people in groups about those are willing to joke about and probably be horrified hah, they keep getting Facebook bot warnings

On March 16 2020 01:02 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On March 16 2020 00:12 Liquid`Drone wrote: tbh when I've seen jewish people complain about antisemitic jokes, I have normally seen them complain about the quality of them, not the concept. Sorry I don't follow. What is the link between antisemitic jokes and normalizing far right /pol/ memes during an ongoing crisis of immense proportion and arguing that only emotionally defective people wouldnt find them funny? If I go on TL.net and post what Baal posted, and make his above argument, what do you think is more likely going to happen? Just curious. I might end up doing it depending on your answer.

I think that under the right circumstances, humor can be a healthy way of approaching great tragedies, and this is a point I've seen jews themselves make with some frequency. But if you are gonna make a joke about something deeply tragic, it becomes much more important that this joke is really, really funny, and I don't think /pol/ memes are there, ever.

Baal was banned from TL almost 10 years ago (one of very few posters with a 5 digit post count to be permed), and is a moderator here. I'm not a moderator here, but I am one there. Suffice to say, the policies of the sites differ greatly.

Whats funny is deeply subjective
I'm in the Ricky Gervais corner on this one
You should be able to joke about anything

For me personally I know if I'm not it's probably because I'm avoiding the topic in the first place and should work through dealing with it more

I'm not talking about one sides avoidance of only using humour to avoid feelings, but a good balance and spectrum of fully felt states. Just because you joke about something doesn't have to mean you don't take the subject seriously

On March 16 2020 08:42 LemOn[5thF] wrote: That's pretty simple Values and values based actions Check acceptance and commitment therapy 6 core processes to see what I mean

What if your values are fucked up or you keep falling short on the actions?

Why is that any better than a progressive Christianity or Kant/Rawls?

On March 16 2020 15:30 RiKD wrote: Show nested quote + On March 16 2020 08:42 LemOn[5thF] wrote: That's pretty simple Values and values based actions Check acceptance and commitment therapy 6 core processes to see what I mean What if your values are fucked up or you keep falling short on the actions?

I won't recap the entire field lol
Just read into Steven C Hayes's work and ACT
It's what clinicians use
and this is exactly what it deals with


As you can tell by my posts
Or that I post here at all
I have a lot of work to do myself
and it never ends, your never "achieve" your values

On March 16 2020 15:31 RiKD wrote: Why is that any better than a progressive Christianity or Kant/Rawls?

I might be shortsighted but it seems almost absurd to me to live life based on 2 arbitrary philosophers

Vs what evidence based fields of psychology and psychotherapy built on thousands of studies and countless experiences of clinicians say

Whoa dude. Arbitrary is not the best word to use there. Kant/Rawls are like the 2 most legit names in ethics. But even they can be mangled or disregarded when it comes to actual values and actions as well.

Skimming through this ACT doesn't seem like a bad framework but it is still just a framework. There has got to be more to life than some psychology behavioral therapy. DBT and CBT just never really struck a chord with me and ACT doesn't really seem to either. Whatever works I suppose.

Then there is Nietzsche's "Genealogy of Morals" I believe which I haven't read in ages but shouldn't be ignored. I'm sure there are plenty of other great works in this area that I could read.

I don't think that I'm quite an existential nihilist nor a moral nihilist but I am probably pretty close. The only thing that really keeps me going is human connection and honestly some of the facets of a 12 step recovery program keep me sane (as well as copious amounts of psych meds). I should probably re-watch the Roderick lectures. I have the time. But I think it can be summarized that:

A.) I need human connection or I will kill myself
B.) In order to sustain human connection I need to act appropriately in the social spheres I am navigating
C.) ????

basic moral intuition>kant/bentham/aristotle. No one (apart from a few crazies) take thes prescriptive systems of the three main ethical philosophers seriously for good reasons.

On March 16 2020 16:37 RiKD wrote: Skimming through this ACT doesn't seem like a bad framework but it is still just a framework. There has got to be more to life than some psychology behavioral therapy. DBT and CBT just never really struck a chord with me and ACT doesn't really seem to either. Whatever works I suppose.

Do you really want to find something that works? Doesn't seem like it tbh