Santafairy Korea (South). Oct 11 2019 17:02. Posts 2226
On October 11 2019 00:17 Baalim wrote:
btw, what is the upside for the US about this?, Europe doesn't intervene to stop the migrant bomb Turkey is holding but whats in it for the US? please no "to erradicate the threat of ecofeminists" answers lol
he can start a war to ensure reelection? I don't know. he did try to spread the rumor that he was MORE extreme than bolton
as an ethno-nationalist I completely support the Kurds so this is distressing
It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen
Someone who heard the call between Trump and Erdogan thought the matter was pretty straight-forward before the invasion begun:
"President Trump was definitely out-negotiated and only endorsed the troop withdraw to make it look like we are getting something—but we are not getting something," the National Security Council source told Newsweek. "The U.S. national security has entered a state of increased danger for decades to come because the president has no spine and that's the bottom line."
The decision was seemingly based on a perceived gain from someone who has absolutely no understanding of the situation, and no doubt also influenced by his personal conflict of interest (which he has been open about) of his towers in Turkey. This is why you don't let a businessman run the most powerful country on the planet, even if they weren't as ignorant and erratic as Trump is.
as an ethno-nationalist I completely support the Kurds so this is distressing
Then you should be okay with Erdogan's plan to commit ethnic cleansing, as its stated purpose is to ethnically homogenize the region. The Kurds had no intention to build an ethno-state in Rojava any more than they had intentions of creating a patriarchal society. They would much rather die than regress, which is to say, become more like Erdogan. Pluralism of ethnicity and religion is a core value that has sustained the Kurdish revolution there, and so is organizing non-hierarchically. They are also excluded at the table of the UN constitution committee to shape the future of Syria (interestingly enough, Russia supported them being included) so that wasn't going to happen even if it was in their plans. There's still going to be nationalistic Kurds elsewhere who will want to build your ethnostate even once this region is wiped out. The Kurds you want to be supporting as an ethnonationalist are in Iraq as supporters of the Kurdistan Regional Government and their fighters are the Peshmerga. They don't have a great humanitarian track record, like other ethnonationalistic groups:
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
For those interested in following what is going to be happening, here are two Internationalists in Rojava who were forced to give up on their ecological projects and who decided to start documenting what is happening on the ground:
There is also a YPG vet currently in the US who does a run down at the end of every day
'We are currently a dozen internationalists fighting in serekaniye alongside our Kurdish, Arab, Turkish, Armenian, Assyrians, Assyrians friends.
This will probably be my last message. Turkish Aviation and artillery are constantly bombing us. Islamic groups and Turkish agents have infiltrated our lines. I don't know how long we will be able to hold.
We will take care of your support. We want actions! If the imperialists are not able to get out of their cowardice to save us, we count on our revolutionary friends to take revenge.
There are logical targets. Destroy them.'
Serhat Tiqqun, October 11, 2019.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On October 11 2019 00:17 Baalim wrote:
btw, what is the upside for the US about this?, Europe doesn't intervene to stop the migrant bomb Turkey is holding but whats in it for the US? please no "to erradicate the threat of ecofeminists" answers lol
I mean if you are a completely amoral cynic who sees the world as a struggle between nations where relative gains matter more than absolute gains (rather than favoring cooperation to get gains across the board), then an american position of destabilizing the middle east because it predictably leads to an influx of immigrants into Europe which leads to the further political fragmentation of the EU can make some 'sense'. If you also see how Putin and Erdogan both favor this (they have much more adversarial relationships with the EU than what has normally been the case for the US), and how Trump essentially, outspokenly, favors the highest bidder, it's not hard to see how it happens. He's also an anti-institutionalist who wants to negotiate from a position of power - if the EU is united, the US doesn't have that, if negotiating with individual european countries, it does.
On a short timeline, I can see the realpolitik justification for this. Doesn't make it any less abhorrent though.
so create migrants to the EU to weaken them? sounds a bit far fetched to me Rojava is quite small any conflict in norther Africa would generate 10x the migration and its such a long long play that it would make more sense for a deep state plan rather than a presidential one especially an isolated one.
Not saying it can't be its just not clear to me yet.
On October 11 2019 00:17 Baalim wrote:
btw, what is the upside for the US about this?, Europe doesn't intervene to stop the migrant bomb Turkey is holding but whats in it for the US? please no "to erradicate the threat of ecofeminists" answers lol
he can start a war to ensure reelection? I don't know. he did try to spread the rumor that he was MORE extreme than bolton
as an ethno-nationalist I completely support the Kurds so this is distressing
A war with Turkey? thats crazy.
FFS you are an ethno-nationalist? this thread is full of insane people.
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1
Santafairy Korea (South). Oct 12 2019 08:40. Posts 2226
I was baiting to see if someone would suddenly hate the Kurds as a reaction
it's crazy but that's par for the course with the middle east, not necessarily war with turkey exactly but full scale intervention in syria? which obama was too scared to do. or on the turkey front obama's coup a few years ago unfortunately failed... so there's a lot of unfinished business
It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen
1
Liquid`Drone Norway. Oct 12 2019 11:02. Posts 3093
On October 11 2019 00:17 Baalim wrote:
btw, what is the upside for the US about this?, Europe doesn't intervene to stop the migrant bomb Turkey is holding but whats in it for the US? please no "to erradicate the threat of ecofeminists" answers lol
I mean if you are a completely amoral cynic who sees the world as a struggle between nations where relative gains matter more than absolute gains (rather than favoring cooperation to get gains across the board), then an american position of destabilizing the middle east because it predictably leads to an influx of immigrants into Europe which leads to the further political fragmentation of the EU can make some 'sense'. If you also see how Putin and Erdogan both favor this (they have much more adversarial relationships with the EU than what has normally been the case for the US), and how Trump essentially, outspokenly, favors the highest bidder, it's not hard to see how it happens. He's also an anti-institutionalist who wants to negotiate from a position of power - if the EU is united, the US doesn't have that, if negotiating with individual european countries, it does.
On a short timeline, I can see the realpolitik justification for this. Doesn't make it any less abhorrent though.
so create migrants to the EU to weaken them? sounds a bit far fetched to me Rojava is quite small any conflict in norther Africa would generate 10x the migration and its such a long long play that it would make more sense for a deep state plan rather than a presidential one especially an isolated one.
Not saying it can't be its just not clear to me yet.
Not just kurds, reigniting syrian civil war, IS prisoners escaping from jails, the pro-trump right wing in europe was on the rise during the period where IS was successfully pulling off attacks on european soil.
More likely I think is just Trump being incompetent/favoring his personal business over american interests, and being played by Erdogan. That is much more in line with occam's razor anyway.
On October 12 2019 10:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Not just kurds, reigniting syrian civil war, IS prisoners escaping from jails, the pro-trump right wing in europe was on the rise during the period where IS was successfully pulling off attacks on european soil.
More likely I think is just Trump being incompetent/favoring his personal business over american interests, and being played by Erdogan. That is much more in line with occam's razor anyway.
Occam's razor i'snt a great way to go in complex issues with as lilttle information as we get, Trump isn't acting alone and has a lot of advisors, also while he is profundly stupid in many ways, to think of him of just an incompetent man doing silly things is a caricature that many foolishly believe, i'll reserve my judgement on the motives for the time being
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1
Liquid`Drone Norway. Oct 12 2019 11:38. Posts 3093
Aside from Rand Paul, who hasn't had much of a role in the administration, I haven't really heard any support from any politicians here. Nor any army personnel. This seems like all Trump. Turning the american army into mercenaries, much the same thing.
lol POKER
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NMcNasty United States. Oct 12 2019 18:46. Posts 2039
Trump notoriously fires his advisers and cabinet members who question him. It couldn't be more clear that the Syria withdrawal is just pure corruption, Trump just got off the phone with Erdogan the day before the invasion FFS.
It even seems as if Trump wants the corruption to be visible. Every time he gets away with some outrageous abuse it just empowers him more. That's why impeachment is so important, even if the removal from office chance is 0%.
On October 11 2019 00:17 Baalim wrote:
btw, what is the upside for the US about this?, Europe doesn't intervene to stop the migrant bomb Turkey is holding but whats in it for the US? please no "to erradicate the threat of ecofeminists" answers lol
he can start a war to ensure reelection? I don't know. he did try to spread the rumor that he was MORE extreme than bolton
as an ethno-nationalist I completely support the Kurds so this is distressing
A war with Turkey? thats crazy.
FFS you are an ethno-nationalist? this thread is full of insane people.
"I support pulling out peacekeeping troops in Rojava who were the only thing preventing a genocide and a ISIS resurgence because... you know... you gotta start somewhere to establish peace in the Middle East. It's, like, the same thing as legalizing heroine. Not ideal, but you get what you get." - The sanest person on Liquidpoker
I've said a few times that this is how I believe your mind works. You have a set of unshakable preconceptions of how different systems work and similarly unshakable first principles. Together they lead you to certain conclusions, and when your conclusions are challenged, your reasoning inevitably moves backwards from those conclusions to make them fit.
Anyone who has been an an-cap or a tankie for a decade approaches the world in this exact same way. But I don't think there has ever been a better example that illustrates that point better than this one here. The logical contortions that you have engaged in to stick to your insane conclusion are an astounding thing to witness. It's so obviously wrong (both logically and morally) to anyone who isn't dogmatically committed to a conclusion that they had already made before they even looked.
On October 12 2019 10:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Not just kurds, reigniting syrian civil war, IS prisoners escaping from jails, the pro-trump right wing in europe was on the rise during the period where IS was successfully pulling off attacks on european soil.
More likely I think is just Trump being incompetent/favoring his personal business over american interests, and being played by Erdogan. That is much more in line with occam's razor anyway.
Occam's razor i'snt a great way to go in complex issues with as lilttle information as we get, Trump isn't acting alone and has a lot of advisors, also while he is profundly stupid in many ways, to think of him of just an incompetent man doing silly things is a caricature that many foolishly believe, i'll reserve my judgement on the motives for the time being
Extreme narcissists don't have complex personalities and motives. Yes, it's foolish to think he's incompetent in a vacuum, because he isn't incompetent at certain things, such as crowd manipulation. No, it's not foolish to think he doesn't know what he's doing beyond taking care of his immediate self-interest. It doesn't matter how many advisors you have when you believe, deep down, that you are the wisest person in the room. Advice doesn't have magical personality-transforming powers.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Last edit: 13/10/2019 01:10
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Stroggoz New Zealand. Oct 13 2019 01:11. Posts 5296
On October 11 2019 00:17 Baalim wrote:
btw, what is the upside for the US about this?, Europe doesn't intervene to stop the migrant bomb Turkey is holding but whats in it for the US? please no "to erradicate the threat of ecofeminists" answers lol
he can start a war to ensure reelection? I don't know. he did try to spread the rumor that he was MORE extreme than bolton
as an ethno-nationalist I completely support the Kurds so this is distressing
A war with Turkey? thats crazy.
FFS you are an ethno-nationalist? this thread is full of insane people.
"I support pulling out peacekeeping troops in Rojava who were the only thing preventing a genocide and a ISIS resurgence because... you know... you gotta start somewhere to establish peace in the Middle East. It's, like, the same thing as legalizing heroine. Not ideal, but you get what you get." - The sanest person on Liquidpoker
I've said a few times that this is how I believe your mind works. You have a set of unshakable preconceptions of how different systems work and similarly unshakable first principles. Together they lead you to certain conclusions, and when your conclusions are challenged, your reasoning inevitably moves backwards from those conclusions to make them fit.
Anyone who has been an an-cap or a tankie for a decade approaches the world in this exact same way. But I don't think there has ever been a better example that illustrates that point better than this one here. The logical contortions that you have engaged in to stick to your insane conclusion are an astounding thing to witness. It's so obviously wrong (both logically and morally) to anyone who isn't dogmatically committed to a conclusion that they had already made before they even looked.
+1
Actually is amazingly immoral to support any withdrawal here. it's obvious what the consequences are.
Also people are very confused about ethnonationalism, including ethnonationalists themselves. We only get to see what right wing nationalism is from history class, but many forms of nationalism have been consistent anti-imperialist, anti-racist and ideologies, including ethnonationalism. which is in a way consistent with isolationist american/european foreign policy.
One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beings
On October 12 2019 10:38 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Aside from Rand Paul, who hasn't had much of a role in the administration, I haven't really heard any support from any politicians here. Nor any army personnel. This seems like all Trump. Turning the american army into mercenaries, much the same thing.
Because war is the only thing with full bipartisan support in the US, this being the exception because the left idolize the kurds. What non-libertarian politician truly supports non intervention? Tulsy Gabbard is the only one I can think of and she is a nobody.
I'm not saying its not Trump obviously what I mean is that its unlikely its some random dumb move by him rather than a strategy him and his advisors pursue (not with party support, its more than obvious that Trump doesn't act that way)
"I support pulling out peacekeeping troops in Rojava who were the only thing preventing a genocide and a ISIS resurgence because... you know... you gotta start somewhere to establish peace in the Middle East. It's, like, the same thing as legalizing heroine. Not ideal, but you get what you get." - The sanest person on Liquidpoker
I've said a few times that this is how I believe your mind works. You have a set of unshakable preconceptions of how different systems work and similarly unshakable first principles. Together they lead you to certain conclusions, and when your conclusions are challenged, your reasoning inevitably moves backwards from those conclusions to make them fit.
Anyone who has been an an-cap or a tankie for a decade approaches the world in this exact same way. But I don't think there has ever been a better example that illustrates that point better than this one here. The logical contortions that you have engaged in to stick to your insane conclusion are an astounding thing to witness. It's so obviously wrong (both logically and morally) to anyone who isn't dogmatically committed to a conclusion that they had already made before they even looked.
But we are all like that except people who don't question things and cynics.
You also have unshakable first principles, they simply aren't the same as mine, you also are unable to think critically when your conclusions are challenged and are far more blind to them tham I am (Like the Scandinavian paradox), you think you adap and compromise only because you change your stance between a peaceful approach to lets eat the rich but this was never one of your unshakable principles, you are also so proud becaus you eat mollusks as if that somehow means you are not dogmatic.
I dont also don't think in making any logical contortion and my analogy is pretty good because I feel the same way about heroin, I wouldn't want it legal, its going to cause a lot of problem but I think the principle of non-prohibition is more important, so I wish the mayhem that is going to hit northern Syria wouldn't happen, and I also think intervention can be good in specific places but the overall position is more important, and that is not a stiff unshakable position, but in fact it is the compromise.
Extreme narcissists don't have complex personalities and motives. Yes, it's foolish to think he's incompetent in a vacuum, because he isn't incompetent at certain things, such as crowd manipulation. No, it's not foolish to think he doesn't know what he's doing beyond taking care of his immediate self-interest. It doesn't matter how many advisors you have when you believe, deep down, that you are the wisest person in the room. Advice doesn't have magical personality-transforming powers.
Agree 100%, I'm not saying in favor of Trump but that thinking the people in power are just fools is a dangerous mistake and one that is done often.
I remember an interview to one of Bush Jr. advisors long after his presidency, someone who was clearly articulate and smart and the interviewer asked him what was he thought of George W Bush and the first thing he said "very smart" and you could tell it was honest, a president always painted like a dumb chimp perhaps even used that mask to sail smoothly kind of like Boris Johnson, thinking of them as fools somehow feels like taking power away from them, so we often do that.
Actually is amazingly immoral to support any withdrawal here. it's obvious what the consequences are.
And everybody argued that is immoral to pull out from Iraq because it didn't have any insutution and it was ripe for extremists to take over, and they were partially right.
It is immoral to leave but it is even more immoral to stay, there is no good time to leave, pay the price and don't make the same mistake again, if you think you can just help them build defenses against Turkey and Assad and then smoothly leave then you are more naive than I thought.
United States. Oct 12 2019 18:46. Posts 2039
