Truth Discussion Time - Page 38

blame Mother Theresa for that

On July 05 2017 00:08 RiKD wrote: What is power? What role does it play in fulfillment?

According to Nietzsche:

Power is to become who we truly are. Power is uninhibited self expression.

Along those lines it is directly related with fulfillment. We should live dangerously, climb mountains, sail unchartered seas. There is no final destination. Overcome the present man and reach for the superman. You will be overcome one day but that is a reality of life. Do not inhibit these realities of life with Christianity or alcohol. We are born nihilists. Say no to the "Thou shall" statements of the herd and then say yes to what is meaningful and good. We must become who we truly are. Shine on you crazy diamond (I think Nietzsche would like Pink Floyd).

On July 05 2017 21:52 Spitfiree wrote: blame Mother Theresa for that

I do, she was an angel of death and misery

A friend posted some bullshit Mother Theresa quote "If you judge people you have no time to love them" and my other friend quickly came in with this first response:

"That witch tortured thousands of people while living in the lap of luxury. Fuck that cunt." Fuck that cunt indeed.

Is there any realness in the noise comeing out of that hole in our face except for maybe the feel of lips smacking against each other, sensations of a tounge squirming around and air hitting the mouths inside? Is there any realness in any content of any thought or belief?

We are insane because we believe thoughts.

What is true?
Ask it til you are blue in the face.

On July 09 2017 16:13 longple wrote: Is there any realness in the noise comeing out of that hole in our face except for maybe the feel of lips smacking against each other, sensations of a tounge squirming around and air hitting the mouths inside? Is there any realness in any content of any thought or belief? We are insane because we believe thoughts. What is true? Ask it til you are blue in the face.

To get into those ideas more deeply, look up the Buddhist philosopher Nagarjuna and/or ontological nonfoundationalism. Also Alfred Korzybski's work/general semantics.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nagarjuna/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-foundationalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Korzybski#General_semantics
This is what I've been into lately (related): http://www.generalsemantics.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/gsb-30-31-laborit.pdf

Have fun with Jordan Peterson fanboys after that.

The lie resides right at your own center, at the place you call “I” or “me.” Investigate. Does the thought or sense of “I” point to a reality? Just like the word rain points to the wet stuff in your face, or the words fear and joy point to a set of body sensations? Or is it the case that the words “I” and “me” are just words, pointing to nothing more real and solid than the word “santa claus”?

What if the only thing in experience that isnt real is that there is a you? Look and see that there is no one there, that there never ever even has been anyone there in the first place. As in zero, nada.

Freefall.

On July 09 2017 17:53 longple wrote: The lie resides right at your own center, at the place you call “I” or “me.” Investigate. Does the thought or sense of “I” point to a reality? Just like the word rain points to the wet stuff in your face, or the words fear and joy point to a set of body sensations? Or is it the case that the words “I” and “me” are just words, pointing to nothing more real and solid than the word “santa claus”? What if the only thing in experience that isnt real is that there is a you? Look and see that there is no one there, that there never ever even has been anyone there in the first place. As in zero, nada. Freefall.

I've read the writings of people like Ramana Maharshi, Vivekananda, Aurobindo and I appreciate them, I think the non-dual tradition is very rich, but for some reason, when it is being preached by a Westerner I become very bored and suspicious (though there are exceptions of course like maybe Alan Watts and definitely Douglas Harding). I think the following: first, there is no originality there. We've all heard it: the ego and the language we use is an illusion, etc, but it's all being presented in such an unsophisticated way most of the time. I think it serves no purpose other than a masturbatory one, especially when you consider the tone and air of superiority that is used, even somewhat detectable in your post. Like you have come from the mountains to illuminate the matters of consciousness for us plebs who have never investigated.

I think also that the Westerners preaching non-duality can only afford these thoughts from the comfort of their own modern homes and in the process they make the mistake of denying biology. The "I" is much more biological than it is psychological (or psycho-spiritual), and that is very real indeed: you can wax lyrical all day about joy and fear, pleasure and pain being "just words, nothing real", but your body will react if I shove something sharp enough in your eye. There's a level of reality you can't escape from with mental masturbation. Any philosophy or worldview that only explains things from one level of analysis and doesn't account for the fact that the world (or reality) functions by a complex network of relationships happening at different levels of organization is very unsophisticated and reductionistic. I guess you can make an easy analogy with poker. Assuming that your opponents are competent, you can't be a successful poker player if you only have one gear. In the same way, you can't have a very accurate view of reality if you only have one level of analysis.

Fuck you and thank you for shoveing, or rather helping me shove something sharp in my eye. You seem to wanna be real and right even though nothing ur saying is true. Just like me, its disgusting and amazingly beautiful and it has to be puked out, apparently.

Sensations are very real, thoughts are very real, their storys are not, but that dosnt make whats burning over here with intensity unreal. Its very real, actually its like nothing else exists.
Just like ahab, the only way is to charge into the water after the whale. You have to give up everything and nothing, and it hurts like a motherfucker.
Something is on fire here right now and it has to burn, thank you! Stripping oneself of lies and asking whats true is destructive and painful. We're all full of bullshit, innocent, call it biological even, its still bullshit. Were lying to ourselvs that we are anything but perfect.

On July 10 2017 06:23 RiKD wrote: Chrisopher Hitchens

I only watched #7 and kinda closed off that nonsense. But the guy was probably ironical

On July 12 2017 19:50 longple wrote: You seem to wanna be real and right even though nothing ur saying is true.

How did you come to the conclusion that nothing I'm saying is true? I mean, it very well may be, but what are your premises? I don't think we're doing the same thing as you say, "puking out" conclusions without supporting premises.

[We're all full of bullshit, innocent, call it biological even, its still bullshit. Were lying to ourselvs that we are anything but perfect.

Who is the 'we' here? I don't think I know of a single person who thinks they are perfect. And yeah, we are deceiving ourselves, and having knowledge of that deception means we know (at least to a certain degree) how we can distinguish the real from the unreal. So that's the "everything is an illusion, all thoughts are a lie" conclusion out of the window right there.

On July 13 2017 19:40 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On July 12 2017 19:50 longple wrote: You seem to wanna be real and right even though nothing ur saying is true. How did you come to the conclusion that nothing I'm saying is true? I mean, it very well may be, but what are your premises? I don't think we're doing the same thing as you say, "puking out" conclusions without supporting premises.   [We're all full of bullshit, innocent, call it biological even, its still bullshit. Were lying to ourselvs that we are anything but perfect. Who is the 'we' here? I don't think I know of a single person who thinks they are perfect. And yeah, we are deceiving ourselves, and having knowledge of that deception means we know (at least to a certain degree) how we can distinguish the real from the unreal. So that's the "everything is an illusion, all thoughts are a lie" conclusion out of the window right there.

How can it be true? My point being that whenever you ask if its true, you end up in "I dont know" land if theres complete honesty, no matter what question it is. And if youre willing to actually look your world will start to collapse because everthing might just be real and unreal at the same time.

In zen theres a saying "if you meet buddah on the road, kill him". If you ever end up thinking something is true, what ever it is. No exlusion of beliefs like "I dont exist" or "Everything is an illusion". Well is that true? Who the fuck knows. If one is after truth, when ever you think you got something kill the damn thing and keep going.

And about the "who is the we" part, youve never met anyone who thinks they're perfect, thats exactly my point. We think that were not, for what ever reason. Why wouldnt we? We assume alot of things. Obviously ending up thinking that youre perfect is bullshit too but why would anything not be perfect?

I have no idea what im doing here, thoughts are keen to speculate for sure, obviously its pure guessing and they innocently want something good for me. What I can report is like sensations of fingers moveing across the keyboard, sensations of sitting and thoughts yapping on about stuff. I have absolutely no idea if im honest whats going on here. Im in more of a everything is love sort of gear today and I wanna express that im sorry for stomping on here useing who ever wanted to fight to fight. Ive noticed that whenever something is triggered in me I can add a "just like me" little addon on just about anything where judgements or thoughts trigger something in the body, wich posting here did for me.

So thanks gang keep the good work up!

Again, could easily switch out all the "you" -s to I -s.

Writing a bunch of poop, I like to use the word puke because thats what it seems to be more like here when I write. Write alot on my own and its just like this, just pukeing out bullshit that I believe.

If anyone would find me while writing they would probably lock me up, even tho im pretty sure its everyone else that is insane.

On July 13 2017 20:36 longple wrote: Show nested quote + On July 13 2017 19:40 Loco wrote:   On July 12 2017 19:50 longple wrote: You seem to wanna be real and right even though nothing ur saying is true. How did you come to the conclusion that nothing I'm saying is true? I mean, it very well may be, but what are your premises? I don't think we're doing the same thing as you say, "puking out" conclusions without supporting premises.   [We're all full of bullshit, innocent, call it biological even, its still bullshit. Were lying to ourselvs that we are anything but perfect. Who is the 'we' here? I don't think I know of a single person who thinks they are perfect. And yeah, we are deceiving ourselves, and having knowledge of that deception means we know (at least to a certain degree) how we can distinguish the real from the unreal. So that's the "everything is an illusion, all thoughts are a lie" conclusion out of the window right there. How can it be true? My point being that whenever you ask if its true, you end up in "I dont know" land if theres complete honesty, no matter what question it is. And if youre willing to actually look your world will start to collapse because everthing might just be real and unreal at the same time. In zen theres a saying "if you meet buddah on the road, kill him". If you ever end up thinking something is true, what ever it is. No exlusion of beliefs like "I dont exist" or "Everything is an illusion". Well is that true? Who the fuck knows. If one is after truth, when ever you think you got something kill the damn thing and keep going.

What you're presenting is basically just Descartes' Evil Demon or the modern version of it which is the brain in a vat thought experiment. We can't ever know for sure that we're not being deceived by an Evil Demon that inputs everything we receive as information and which we are determined to output, or in the latter case our brain is in a vat and a scientist has full control over our experiences. We can't appeal to the coherence of our experiences and so we seem powerless in the face of such uncertainty. It's an important thought experiment but not one that has been left unanswered. You seem to believe that once we're faced with this possibility the only thing left to turn to is Pyrrhonism or solipsism.

You say that there is no exclusion of belief, but there is. "I don't exist" and "everything is an illusion" are indeed defeated, but not everything is. To say that everything can be false because some things are false amounts to a bad argument. It's like saying "My parents lied to me before, so for all I know, they have always been lying." It's very unlikely to be the case. If there's complete honesty, as you say, then you're not left in "I don't know land". What you get is Descartes' famous insight, cogito ergo sum: I think therefore I am (and by "think" Descartes includes ''experiencing''). Why is that? Because the Demon's goal is to deceive you about your experience of reality, but it's not logically possible for him to deceive you into thinking that you exist when you don't. The demon can't simultaneously make both of these things true: (1) I think that I exist. (2) I'm wrong about whether I do. If the first premise is true, then I exist to do the thinking. So as long as you think you exist, then you do. You can think that you're doing something while in fact you are deceived about it and it's just a virtual reality or you're dreaming, but you can't think that you're thinking when you're not.

The Zen saying about killing the Buddha is just about not trusting people for who they say (or think) they are. Which is indeed very true and prudent. We do not fully know who we are at any given time because we are driven by unconscious processes beyond our control. It's not about extreme skepticism at all times in all circumstances. In fact, life as we know it is absolutely impossible if all we have is uncertainty about everything. One important question to ask is, what is even the motivation of such extreme skepticism? You'd say it's the desire for the truth, but I would argue that it is prudence from a perspective of self-preservation. Extreme skepticism is a method, and its project seeks to have a foundation to stand upon, moreso than to find "the truth". The biological basis for wanting "the truth" is iffy, whereas we can clearly see how prudence and self-preservation fits into an evolutionary narrative. What we're really motivated to do is to minimize our risks of being deceived into making bad decisions (which could be fatal), not a desire for discovering abstract truths for their own sake.

Thank you Loco. I love (and sometimes hate) your posts and ive had some fun waiting around for answers. Ive read some of them over time previously, and I had to throw myself in here like a pokemon ready for battle, im full of wildness some days.

The thinking part is a bit confuseing but the cogito has done quite a job here.
Yes, whats left?

Molotov coctail on the brain.

burn burn burn

I am-ness!

I seem to believe that theres nothing I can do really, your right (if that was what you were pointing at), somedays im like a bloodhound mixxed with a mad scientist pukeing out words.

You say "In fact, life as we know it is absolutely impossible if all we have is uncertainty about everything", is that true?

The cogito was stumbled upon while I was chaseing butterflys and my world started to shatter about a year ago.
Ive started to see as things are relaxing a bit that the cogito is only a beginning tho.

I share your liking of nonduality as I stumbled upon that later on after the cogito earthquake. Read pretty much everything of Alan Watts and Adyashanti. They are pure procrastination at this point tho with their poeticness.

As expressed, here the buddahkilling quote landed as a get up u smuck! I think that Im getting something when Im not.


edit: Just bought Alfred Korzybski's book Manhood of humanity, will take it for a lil spinn!

If you haven't read Robert Anton Wilson, you should. He was influenced by Alan Watts and a ton of other thinkers. Lots of audio lectures of him online as well. Even though some of his work borders on science fiction, he was clearly a very erudite person who can make you think about serious stuff. He was an expert on Korzybski too and can serve as a solid introduction.

Thanks for the tip, liked some of his rants. I got Prometheus Rising too for my kindle.