DooMeR United States. Jun 24 2016 21:31. Posts 8562
Can the people who are happy about this result explain why they are? I can only see this as a bad thing from the little I know.
I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance, by running away from the scene of an accident.
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soberstone United States. Jun 24 2016 22:25. Posts 2662
On June 24 2016 20:31 DooMeR wrote:
Can the people who are happy about this result explain why they are? I can only see this as a bad thing from the little I know.
Very simple.
#1 Most important - Britain can now close their borders and stem the tide of refugees which they would have had to accept as a matter of EU policy
#2 Britains economy now not run by Bureaucratic regulators out of Brussel
The main counterpoints
1. Somehow wanting closed borders is Xenophobic (retarded)
2. The economic counterpoint is that Britain's economy benefits from the interdependent economy of a larger, more dynamic European Super-Economy which would be true if the EU weren't filled with Socialist Welfare States like Greece and France that countries like Britain and Germany are subsidizing.
On June 24 2016 20:31 DooMeR wrote:
Can the people who are happy about this result explain why they are? I can only see this as a bad thing from the little I know.
I'm going to keep this short because I don't have time to offer a long response outlining every consideration. Maybe later if people still care at that point.
This vote was a lot more complicated than people gave it credit for. I'm not even sure who's telling the truth. There was a lot of bias and propaganda coming from both sides. The EU was supposed to be a trading bloc, but it become an anti-democratic institution; dictating to nations what they could and couldn't do with no way to remove those in power. Sovereignty and the migration of people became a focus for many people.
Turkey has been blackmailing the EU over the "refugee" crisis. If Turkey were to become part of the EU that would be an unimaginable disaster for Europe. Pundits warned everyone about the financial consequences and uncertainties of a leave victory but most people speculate that any downfall will be short-term. A leave vote was a long-term decision.
There are many nations in the EU that are performing poorly economically. The U.K. Is strong and it will remain so once the dust settles.
Edit: I'd also like to point out that this vote wasn't legally binding, so who knows what will happen later on.
On June 24 2016 20:31 DooMeR wrote:
Can the people who are happy about this result explain why they are? I can only see this as a bad thing from the little I know.
Very simple.
#1 Most important - Britain can now close their borders and stem the tide of refugees which they would have had to accept as a matter of EU policy
#2 Britains economy now not run by Bureaucratic regulators out of Brussel
For the 15th time this month, they can do whatever they want with their borders with people that do not have an id of a country in the EU and they have no immigration problem unlike other EU countries.
#2 Is something that can go either way, while I do agree the EU has a lot of shitty stuff and there hasnt been a single significant reform in years, they lack the balls to take decisions that matter. I can agree on all of those. However what the UK did was trade that for political insecurity for at least 3 years, high short-term unemployment rate, destruction of their economy for the next at least decade ( until/if they reach the same agreements the Swiss have for example ).
I wont be surprised if Scotland and Wales run referendums on their own about going out of the UK now as they would much rather prefer to tag along the EU than England, a country by the way that has left every union, in which it ever participated, the moment that things didn't go smooth.
Also what the post above said. Except the Turkey part. The EU has taken Turkey's application 29 years ago. They have never and will never have the chance to enter the union unless things there change fundamentally which would still take decades to develope. It was all political games, Erdogan has and edge and he s pushing it to the limits, its what smart politicians do regardless of morals.
Funny part about the #BRexit propaganda is that the 350 million pounds ( which arent 350 for further info -> John Oliver's Last Week Tonight ) ,which were a main advert of the brexit party , that the UK sent weekly, wont go towards NHS ( national healthcare system ) as promised. Better trust politicians
Last edit: 24/06/2016 23:41
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soberstone United States. Jun 24 2016 23:43. Posts 2662
On June 24 2016 20:31 DooMeR wrote:
Can the people who are happy about this result explain why they are? I can only see this as a bad thing from the little I know.
Very simple.
#1 Most important - Britain can now close their borders and stem the tide of refugees which they would have had to accept as a matter of EU policy
#2 Britains economy now not run by Bureaucratic regulators out of Brussel
For the 15th time this month, they can do whatever they want with their borders with people that do not have an id of a country in the EU and they have no immigration problem unlike other EU countries.
#2 Is something that can go either way, while I do agree the EU has a lot of shitty stuff and there hasnt been a single significant reform in years, they lack the balls to take decisions that matter. I can agree on all of those. However what the UK did was trade that for political insecurity for at least 3 years, high short-term unemployment rate, destruction of their economy for the next at least decade ( until/if they reach the same agreements the Swiss have for example ).
I wont be surprised if Scotland and Wales run referendums on their own about going out of the UK now as they would much rather prefer to tag along the EU than England, a country by the way that has left every union, in which it ever participated, the moment that things didn't go smooth.
Also what the post above said. Except the Turkey part. The EU has taken Turkey's application 29 years ago. They have never and will never have the chance to enter the union unless things there change fundamentally which would still take decades to develope. It was all political games, Erdogan has and edge and he s pushing it to the limits, its what smart politicians do regardless of morals.
Funny part about the #BRexit propaganda is that the 350 million pounds ( which arent 350 for further info -> John Oliver's Last Week Tonight ) ,which were a main advert of the brexit party , that the UK sent weekly, wont go towards NHS ( national healthcare system ) as promised. Better trust politicians
For the 25th time this month. No, If you are in the EU, you have to open your borders to ANYONE else within EU borders. Other countries in the EU are importing millions of refugees, so they are beginning to pour into England. Is this that hard to understand?
You clearly have done zero research. That's on you. Immigration was THE reason people voted to Brexit. You are making an absolute fool of yourself here. This isn't even a point that's up for contention. Both sides will readily acknowledge this.
Glad you listen to John Oliver (speaking of propoganda) and refuse to even simply do the most basic google search to find out how wrong you are.
the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom – maintain opt-outs.
As a result of the ongoing migration crisis and terrorist attacks in Paris, a number of countries have temporarily reintroduced controls on some or all of their borders with other Schengen states.
Both of which are true.
You are not forced to take non EU citizens in any way. They do NOT have the same rights as EU citizens.
Stop talking out of your arse.
If immigration was their strongest concern and thats really the reason they chose #brexit ( and i really doubt it is ) , then they are all retarded.
If you are in the EU you are not forced to open your borders towards other EU country that is not part of the Schengen Area. You have no idea how the structure works yet you are continueing this non sense. Stop spreading ignorance.
Example :
My country is a part of the EU, but not a part of Schengen - > I am forced to go through border control in the first Schengen Area and that was before the refugee crisis. After the crisis I might be forced to go through border control multiple times in different countries even if I already entered one. Schengen at this moment is not working and might potentially even disband, which does not mean the EU disbands, but hey go with your " research"
What you are implying is that if I were a refugee and I entered Greece for example, and I didn't get registered( refugees gotta stay in the first country they register to ) and i somehow got to England, they can't do shit about it. They will be all like" oh well you made it here, better give you money now". I guess thats why they shipped dozens of planes full of refugess back to Turkey then ?
I bet you will vote for Trump too. The ignorance is really strong .
Last edit: 25/06/2016 00:01
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soberstone United States. Jun 24 2016 23:59. Posts 2662
Here you go bud.
"People who are nationals of European Union [REFUGEES] member states have the right to work or live across the EU. That's not something from which the UK can opt out while it remains in the EU."
Is the BBC a good source for you? A liberal mainstream media outlet good enough?
Just stop. This is not a controversial issue. It's a fact. It's as much up for debate as whether murder is illegal. You are just wrong.
"People who are nationals of European Union "People who are nationals of European Union "People who are nationals of European Union "People who are nationals of European Union "People who are nationals of European Union "People who are nationals of European Union
And implying that they have a problem with EU citizens immigration is purely a lie. There is not a single source of evidence pointing towards that. Majority of eu citizen immigrants are spread into 2 categories - A) Students B) Working class which they lack.
Last edit: 25/06/2016 00:04
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soberstone United States. Jun 25 2016 00:03. Posts 2662
I'VE SAID THIS 30 TIMES.
I'M NOT SAYING THEY HAVE TO TAKE NON EU CITIZENS. I AM SAYING THEY HAVE TO TAKE ALL IMMIGRANTS THAT ANY EU COUNTRY ACCEPTS. DO THE CAPITALS LETTERS HELP YOU UNDERSTAND?
Hypothetical: Germany accepts 1.3 million refugees. Now they end up in the UK.
Oh wait, not a hypothetical, because it just fucking happened.
No they cant. I do not know where you get that false info. Those refugees are to stay in the country they are registered in. Accepting refugees does not make them eu citizens nor does it give them the same rights
What the article you've posted implies is that in your Hypothetical, Germany issues 1.3 million IDs for those refugees. You realize how absurd that sounds right?
The EU is still struggling on how to manage those people let alone anything else
What is the European Union’s asylum policy?
The EU has spent years building the Common European Asylum System (CEAS), which is intended to ensure that the rights of refugees under international law are protected in its member states. The system sets out minimum standards and procedures for processing and assessing asylum applications, and for the treatment of both asylum seekers and those who are granted refugee status. However, many EU states have yet to properly implement these standards. What exists instead is a patchwork of 28 asylum systems producing uneven results.
Where an asylum seeker travels through several EU countries, the CEAS allows one EU country to send that person to the first EU country reached by the asylum seeker, so long as that country upholds the rights of asylum seekers. This so-called “Dublin system” privileges EU countries in the north, the desired destination of many refugees, at the expense of the south, where most refugees first arrived.
But only a very small proportion of asylum seekers are transferred this way, and failures of asylum systems in Greece, Italy, and Hungary have led courts to block transfers. Unlike settled residents and tourists, asylum seekers do not have the right to move freely within the EU’s Schengen area.
Member states have reinstituted border controls at times, endangering the Schengen system of free movement, as well as erected fences along borders, notably in Hungary and Bulgaria. Several countries in Central Europe have been openly dismissive of resettling refugees, and far-right anti-immigrant parties have risen in popularity across Europe.
Why asylum ? Cause refugees seek asylum, migrants seek self improvement.
This is how the refugee system works, this is why Hungary went all mad and wanted to kill all refugees ( Cause noone wants to stay in the southern borders of the EU aka Bulgaria and Greece and they all move on to the next one even though they shouldnt, but there s noone to stop them.
Done discussing the immigration topic.
Nigel Farage s main argument was that those refugees will receive passports by whichever country they are registered to which would lead them to migrate to the UK. NIgel Farage often states absurd things like that which make him look like an idiot, but in fact is a well ran propaganda that wins the votes of the same idiots that voted for BRexit
P.S. Yes John Oliver also states a lot of propaganda bullshit, even in the BRexit topic, but once you see who he s lobbying for its not hard to select the crops from the weeds.
Last edit: 25/06/2016 00:21
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waga United Kingdom. Jun 25 2016 01:07. Posts 2375
You know you're a fucking idiot when Spitfiree school you
On June 24 2016 10:15 Baalim wrote:
Cant believe there isnt a thread about this already but anyway, the Britain leaves the European Union, the GBP is on freefall, Cameron just resigned and everybody is on panic mode.
Another proof that democracy is a shit system simply because people are retarded
nah man... it's the leaders' fault. there's no real "democracy". the elections are rigged, the leaders don't perform as promised, and all they're there for is their agenda and their backer's agenda.
but yes the people are retarded because we still put up with this shit.
They are not rigged, people voted and chose, and regardless what is the best option, most people voting to leave did so related to immigration issues which is absolutely stupid.
On June 24 2016 15:49 soberstone wrote:
As if free trade can't be accomplished between sovereign nations and borders are a bad thing. So absurd.
It can and it did in Europe before the EU, however the EU has to show the rest of europe what happens when you leave, so they are going to make an example out of Britain.
On June 24 2016 10:15 Baalim wrote:
Cant believe there isnt a thread about this already but anyway, the Britain leaves the European Union, the GBP is on freefall, Cameron just resigned and everybody is on panic mode.
Another proof that democracy is a shit system simply because people are retarded
nah man... it's the leaders' fault. there's no real "democracy". the elections are rigged, the leaders don't perform as promised, and all they're there for is their agenda and their backer's agenda.
but yes the people are retarded because we still put up with this shit.
They are not rigged, people voted and chose, and regardless what is the best option, most people voting to leave did so related to immigration issues which is absolutely stupid.
so you believe in every election there's no cheating, in one form or another, involved?
On June 24 2016 15:49 soberstone wrote:
As if free trade can't be accomplished between sovereign nations and borders are a bad thing. So absurd.
It can and it did in Europe before the EU, however the EU has to show the rest of europe what happens when you leave, so they are going to make an example out of Britain.
We dont like taking orders from brussel dictators thank you.
"Make an example", first we will have Nexit and Frexit mate. Eventually there will be only Angela Merkel left. Germany will not be able to ruin Europa a third time at this moment
On June 24 2016 10:15 Baalim wrote:
Cant believe there isnt a thread about this already but anyway, the Britain leaves the European Union, the GBP is on freefall, Cameron just resigned and everybody is on panic mode.
Another proof that democracy is a shit system simply because people are retarded
nah man... it's the leaders' fault. there's no real "democracy". the elections are rigged, the leaders don't perform as promised, and all they're there for is their agenda and their backer's agenda.
but yes the people are retarded because we still put up with this shit.
They are not rigged, people voted and chose, and regardless what is the best option, most people voting to leave did so related to immigration issues which is absolutely stupid.
so you believe in every election there's no cheating, in one form or another, involved?
Of course there are a huge of amounts of rigging in many elections, however this doesnt seems the case, especially because the people in power wanted to remain in the EU, claiming it was rigged with no evidence or even a specific reason is ridiculous
On June 24 2016 15:49 soberstone wrote:
As if free trade can't be accomplished between sovereign nations and borders are a bad thing. So absurd.
It can and it did in Europe before the EU, however the EU has to show the rest of europe what happens when you leave, so they are going to make an example out of Britain.
We dont like taking orders from brussel dictators thank you.
"Make an example", first we will have Nexit and Frexit mate. Eventually there will be only Angela Merkel left. Germany will not be able to ruin Europa a third time at this moment
dont like taking orders from Brussel dictators, first of all you dont know what is a dictator, second that is not an argument, the main arguments for leaving or staying in the EU should be economical, all these sovereignty, nationalism and immigration arguments are traps for easily manipulated fools.
And maybe they leave in the future, maybe they wont, but for the time being the EU will absolutely trash Britain in an attempt to stop anyone else from leaving.
Its funny when people argue from emotion, we wont take orders from nobody! dictators marxists bla bla bla, think in terms of pros and cons, on how the economy and society will be affected by either choice, be rational and pragmatical for a change.
Ex-PokerStars Team Pro Online
Last edit: 25/06/2016 04:50
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soberstone United States. Jun 25 2016 06:33. Posts 2662
Pros:
- Sovereignty (not having over-regulating bureaucrats in Brussels writing laws for you)
- Long-term economic sustainability via not subsidizing socialist countries like Greece
- Stable flow of labor rather than importing cheap labor for huge corporations at the expense of the working class (this is only the first step to accomplishing that, Brexit alone won't be enough, it will take a responsible government reasonably separate from Corporatist influence)
- Stable borders for security in the face of Islamic Radicalism.
- Economically not relying on a failing EU central bank that is going to completely collapse eventually due to an unsustainable welfare state
Cons:
Have to listen to people tell you how stupid you are for disagreeing and how the best kind of government must be dictatorships since democracy is a stupid concept.
I'll take the pro's.
I am yet to hear a sound economic argument as to why staying is better. I understand that trade agreements need to be re-written but I don't see why that can't be accomplished, it's small potatoes, Britain will be fine, their real economy (not speculative) produces far more wealth than average EU Nation-State
If there is a good economic argument as to why leaving was terrible, go for it, but the whole "xenophobic, fear-mongering, stupid people voted" isn't selling anyone besides those already in the echo chamber.
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